Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

[shankarank]

p-142
" what are kutcherys meant for?
=========
Concert hall kutcherys are meant for making money. either for the artiste or for the organizers.
The money thus earned was spent for great philanthropic projects. Barring very few, it is purely a profession now.
Temple concerts are exceptions but film music has gate-crashed there also.
.............
CM nowadays is just a status-symbol. and elitist. entertainment. , in no way different from other forms of entertainent industry.

The whole thing started because people settled in the Urban of chennai for what ? - Great devotional fervor? Why did they migrate? Are you even making sense?

And you claimed SrI tyAgarAja & others were against rituals! Now you are talking about temple concerts. There is not a temple that MMI did not sing around Mayavaram/KumbakONam and possibly to some extent in Madurai as well. Same goes for Madurai Somasundaram. And what about marriage concerts? No rituals there also? Ironically the spread of SrI tyAgarAja to many dispersed rasikas was in the backdrop of a ritual tradition!

And who were those involved in Freedom movement? Commoners? Didn't Gandhi say some rich friends fund his poverty? And those who started Music Academy? Not elites?

And who funds AIR? The state has a right over my money huh? Or is it actually their money? How are the musicians who retired receiving their Pension? Who funds it?

And they cut the 78 RPM(s) what to spread devotional fervour?

If big sabhas have now become a place of glitz and status, don't take that as the thing to beat up on! There happens lot more without glitz there , if only you cared to go look!

And if the cost of this will not be sustainable for some reason at sometime in future, things will go on in smaller places. Things went on in smaller places like Thyagaraja vidvat samajam.

[The Lost Melodies]

Actually, I was about to ask certain questions to @RSR in the 'padam-javali' thread. I am a little bit late and the thread is closed. Anyways, the questions are much related to this thread.

p-326
TLM
----
I am now reading Kishkintha canto.

Valmiki Ramayanam is not only acclaimed for its poetic beauty, but also for its exposition of navarasas, which includes srungara.

I am much happy that you have started to read Kishkinda Kanda. The first sarga is all about the anguish experienced by Sri Ramachandra on the account of the separation of Sitadevi. Though the last few sargas of Aranya Kandam speak about this, I specifically made a mention about Kishkinda Kandam as it is replete with the rasa srungara. I was surprised when I read you quoting a sloka from the sixth sarga. I am much surprised to know that you have started from the sixth sarga!

Srungara is a broader term and need not necessarily include only the sexual union or the amorous description of the human body. It denotes 'love' and when the nayaka and nayaki are not humans, the love expressed there is to be viewed as divine. Certainly, you cannot equate us with the devatas. This is to be understood before trying to interpret any literature that deals with this rasa.

In the first sarga, the ‘viraha tapa’ experienced by Sri Ramachandra is expressed by the Kavi. Though the subject is the pain afflicted due to the separation of his beloved, anyone who reads the kavya can understand and relate the undercurrent 'viraha tapa'. So, Srungara is very well expressed in the great Kavya Ramayana!

Can you call this as ‘L’ust ?

If you believe this segment is spurious, give me a compilation of various editions with the contents of the sarga in each edition.

If you believe Valmiki has done a mistake by including Srungara, I will stop my discussion, as I don’t feel any explanation is required for the great soul who blames Adhikavi.

If you are going to accept Valmiki’s Srungara, you need not respond as our thoughts coincide with yours; we all accept srungara.

If your argument is Jayadeva and Kshetrayya alone are to be condemned, as they have expressed lewd thoughts through their compositions, you need to answer the following questions:

1. Do you feel the only explicit description of the physical beauty creates Lust in the mind of readers? If that is so, why are you not blaming Syama Sastri and Muthuswamy Diksitar for using such words in their compositions?

2. We all know Ashtapathis of Jayadeva was propagated by every proponent of Bhajana Sampradaya, starting from Maruthanallur Svamigal. It was Sri Sudarsana Maha Devendra Sarasvati, 65th pontiff of Kanchi Kamakoti Mutt who instructed Tirumalairayapattnam Ramudu Bhagavatar to tune these Ashtapathis. In the last century, Pudukottai Krishnamurthy Bhagavatar, in his sampradayam has included all these Ashtapathis. Even now, Radha Kalyanam is not complete without singing Ashtapathis.
You want to discount the opinion of all these mahaniyas or you feel they were not learned enough to appreciate the srungara woven in these sahityas?

[The Lost Melodies]

How many of them have been mentioned even in SSP?

Kindly read SSP, properly and then quote it as a reference. Do not use SSP of Sri Subbarama Diksitar as a shield to your flawed and baseless arguments. Sorry for being harsh. I am unable to control my emotions when I see SSP is being quoted unscrupulously. Do not manipulate a document to suit your needs.

Can you please mention the page number (SSP) wherein he has mentioned criteria for including a musician in his text?

[Nick H]

There's not much glitz or status on show in the average Chennai sabha, big or small.

What is sabha music about? It is about a situation in which people gather to listen to music. There will always be exceptions, and there will always be individuals who do not actually behave as if the music is the most important thing going on. But it is.

What is temple music about? Accepting that there may be deep personal reasons for any particular artist to be singing at any particular temple, for the crowd, it is about: background, maybe entertainment. No more or less than wedding music. It is also likely that a concert is part of a festival of concerts organised in exactly the same way as a sabha series, and performed by artists who paid in exactly the same way as if they were performing in a hall a few streets away.

I am not old enough to know how it was in the temple towns of Tamil Nadu in 1950-something, nor was I born in the right place. But, excepting the mobile phone, can it be that the behaviour of the average family has changed so much in a couple of generations? But however things were then, then is not now, and now, such division of temple/sabha performance rings very false to me. Any listener to music, who attends a performance at a temple, just as much as at a wedding, has to put up with the fact that most of the people are not there to do that, and will behave accordingly. And have a right to.

Sabhas will continue to exist. I might be the best undiscovered singer ever (ok, you're right: I'm not) but unless I am discovered and supported by Naada Inbam, Arkay, etc, etc, my voice will be lost in the wilderness of Youtube, and may never be heard by more than a few facebook friends. The sabhas are still performing that function, and will continue to do so. This year has proved that they are still able to raise the necessary to do so, too, even without banners from banks and sari shops. Thank goodness: some may forget that artists have stomachs too. Others may forget that they are also not all CAs on the side.

They may be imperfect, but thank goodness they have survived. Sabha committees are not divine, but nor are temple committees, right?

Anyway, really the conversation relating to the structure, form, and other aspects of the music is a far more interesting one than all this.

[shankarank]

The Carnatic stage is a mythical sacred space. To get seated, people invest on plenty of pleasures ( before the pleasures of music take over that is). Cushion seats , A/C hall, acoustics, great sound system, scented air , and a sojourn to the canteen for a snack and a coffee to get their brains pumped! Before that, the parking lots and drivers in waiting - who with no concern for what goes on inside, step out to take their own tea/coffee sip from the corner shop - the commoner's canteen! That is the real world!!

However the philosophy takes a different view and from the mythical / sacred stage, calls out the myth of the seated space! It says I am the real : bramhassatyam jaganmityA

True of Padams and JavaLis as well, since in real world there is no nayika who has any yearning

Now if you want here it goes: "The tension between the two makes 'art' happen!" - ippa naanum T M Krishna mAdiri pEsa arambicuTTEn" (Now I am dishing out TMK lines!!!)

[SrinathK]

Further it was Kanchi Mahaperiyaval himself who advised Ariyakudi to tune the tiruppavais to their present forms in Carnatic ragas.

Sringara is so much more than just physical aspect of lust and attraction. There is also great bhakti in that relationship. Since it has become a trend to bash Jayadeva, need we be reminded of the incident where Padmavati gave up her life just hearing a fake news of his death? If there was no devotion, is that possible? There are many stories in the bhakti sampradayas to point out this also, and many of the songs when their meaning is studied, the bhakti is obvious regardless of the flavour it assumes.

I am not really saying this to argue, since I know some people are never going to be convinced. But on a public forum, the public who is reading should also know.

[shankarank]

From a civilizational perspective , it boils down to feminine as divine which is unique to this land. It is not there in any other culture or faith. Unless people understand that it is hard for them to figure this out. And don't take this for other agendas like equal rights to them or their empowerment!!

It may take several forms of expression in a culture as diverse as ours. Some of it may be inconvenient. SrI vidya is the upAsana form of the same. The upAsakas bring their own inconveniences. If one of them were to make a visit, you need to provide them palahAram ( Tiffin) for dinner! .

But today if Sri dIkshitar were to visit us, unlike SrI tyAgarAja, it would be no problem to serve him. As it is common nowadays to eat palahAram ( pala Aharam), in some cases due to diabetes!

[RSR]

p-157
@shankarank
<quote>
From a civilizational perspective , it boils down to feminine as divine which is unique to this land. It is not there in any other culture or faith. Unless people understand that it is hard from them to figure out.
</quote>
Well said!
Christianity also gives exalted place to Virgin Mother Mary. and
'immaculate conception'.
I hope that the younger generation wont start singing the praise of the physical 'charms' of their mother, sisters and friends and friends' spouses.
This is a freedom country.!
========================
I would add that INDIA is the only country which worships the land as its mother. - The daughter of Himalaya

[RSR]

p-152
TLM
Did you really see the wonderful site? I had read upto the quote in one sitting. I am sufficiently well-read and many more fields like History, Western and Indian Philosophy, the significance of Bhakthi movement, Political history, English, and Bengali literature and the classics of Russian Literature in English translation.
So don't lecture to me.
----------------------
Do not pretend that you do not understand my objection.
It is definitely, indecent to describe the sexual charms in public writing. Give your jayadeva gita govindam or the rasa kreeda of bhagavatham to any youngster and ask his frank ooopinion.
You will know.
Have you read Sangam literature? All the songs in AkaNaanuru , Silambu , MutthoLLayiram deal with the 'romance' in exquisite and refined manner.
If you want an example of crude sexuality , read Jeevaka Chintamani
And to see how much repugnance such courtesan life invoked, read MaNimekalai.
I am not impressed. by your posts.
and SSP is very poor History. Nothing much there in the chapter on composers and musicians. Now that the web edition is there for all to see, its mediocrity is speaking loud. ( I am not reading the other chapters at all)

[SrinathK]

I hope that the younger generation wont start singing the praise of the physical 'charms' of their mother, sisters and friends and friends' spouses.

I am not impressed. by your posts.
and SSP is very poor History. Nothing much there in the chapter on composers and musicians. Now that the web edition is there for all to see, its mediocrity is speaking loud. ( I am not reading the other chapters at all)

This time it looks like you're hitting below the belt. For a so called decent gentleman of the past, you certainly crossed a line there. And your bigotry is shouting far louder, since you think everyone in the world is mediocre class but yourself. Your "holier than thou attitude" is the ultimate irony coming from someone who spews as much spurious rubbish and insults as many members as you have done. Sheesh...

Look, any respect you have right now is just due to your age. Better not to cross the point where I am forced to disregard it.

All your wax eloquence on the Trinity is now trash as your real opinion on their "mediocre" music has finally come out.

Go on, keep making enemies everywhere... How many more threads will be shut down because of your continuous bickering with everyone, only God knows.

For the first time ever, I think I'll just use the ignore setting. I think many others already would have.

[shankarank]

It is definitely, indecent to describe the sexual charms in public writing. Give your jayadeva gita govindam or the rasa kreeda of bhagavatham to any youngster and ask his frank ooopinion.

In the saundarya lahari discourse by prof. PraNathArthiharan @ my local temple, he only stated , he cannot describe the marma sthAna on the stage. ( marma sthaanathai mEDaiyil vaRNikka kUDaatu - I remember the exact words!). And I know that is not in the same genre as other things we are talking about, but that gives you an idea as to what is not to be in public stage and what can be.

idellAm nInga paDiccatellam paDikkamayE inda youngstorukku kiDaittatu! ( I got all this , without reading all the stuff, you the well read , read - just by listening and being there!)

Secondly, I do agree there is a place and space for certain things, as things can be misconstrued in today's over-sensitized environment. And musicians will choose judiciously! Leave it to them.

And there are cultures, where in home births the elder child witnesses the birth of the sibling! Your victorian Industrial culture is not the only culture in the world!

[shankarank]

And the smArta, vaishNava , mAdva culture, had to spread out and live with all other cultures! While the Srauta will pooh-pooh all the vENDutals and prayers that people do to the deities, the Women in the home had no qualms even going to Mariamman temple to propitiate the virulent form of the feminine / divine.

They know the suffering as they were the care givers. After all My grand father use to recall a vidava after the loss of her husband, that she equated herself to a low-born ( I don't want to use the exact term)!

For once stop readings "texts" and listen to the music in the language!

[rajeshnat]

The skill of ariyakudi was restricted with more memory and there was no onspot manodharama in concert stage . Some musicians like maharajapuram vishwanatha iyer had plenty of onspot manodharmam with minimal memory . Very right balance was achieved by Semmangudi and gnb .

As such following paddhati is

1.more of a energy distribution curve for the performing artist.

2. Human ears cannot take 2 fast numbers or 2 slow numbers in succession ,That means there is overload for most rasikas though few can take, hence some structure and tempo variations makes a lot of sense

3. The rotation of language , composers were done to give sahithya bhava variety as CM concerts are based out of krithis.

4. Tani is placed at either main end or RTP end to suit adequate recovery for the main artist

5. Having a tail of thukkadas is just to ensure a certain lightness for the ears and also the musician energy is bit waning.

The above 5 are commonsense first principles created by Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar

With The 5 points being said
---------------
Bringing in TMK to discussion is pointless . I can see some young rasikas like sreyas are just amazed far more with TMK because they did not have that much time to taste competition around TMK. TMK is struggling as of now to give an average quality and he gives up too soon without sticking up with right layam leash for that compostiion. Shuffle is orphaning and not concentrating on depth of one number at a time. TMK was and is using the main marketing machine named The Hindu as his personal blog , so his reach is more with guaranteed fresh blood rasikas. Taking one concert where KVN or MDR did once a padam in detail is just one dot ball. Musician like MDR USP is his deep voice so it suited that approach, and their musical personality. All of them like KVN or MDR only adhered to Poochi paddhati approach.

Conclusively
-------------
Paddhati does not stop ever you to change the order and constrains the concert as long as commonsense of balance of rasikas ears and energy of performers is kept optimal. Semmangudi has taken dakshinamoorthe as a opener which is a slow number, and once a dinamani vamsa as fast opening number .TRS had done lot of innovations in bringing order change . Semmangudi did atleast 20 years before TMK was born.

[shankarank]

4. Tani is placed at either main end or RTP end to suit adequate recovery for the main artist

Tani avA kuDukkaratAvatu. ivA eDuttunDuDuvA! Who gives the tani - they used to take it themselves. (Quoting my unnamed friend Tanjore/Marathi Grundig tape collector!). There are vidvans who suffered the loss of Senior accompanists, unable to handle this and impact to "format". Well I said it in plural just to make it difficult to guess , even though that was a singular vidvan.

It could give rest/break to the vocal performer, but it also has to jell with the just concluded vocal exposition. Before they played for 8 and 4 kaLai pallavis. So at least 2 kaLai or a slow miSra cApu is expected. Slow rUpakam is also fine. And I have a heard SrI dakshiNamUrtE / miSra jampa by TMK, with tani by TS @ Mylapore fine arts - costliest concert as only 2 seats were available in the front row below the stage.

Bringing in TMK to discussion is pointless . TMK is struggling as of now to give an average quality and he gives up too soon without sticking up with right layam leash for that compostiion.

Well what TMK singing now is irrelevant, we are bringing in his musings only not his music. And we have to to be fair. If he is not in the groove singing "kutcheris" in "format" , we cannot discuss his "form" based on our "kutcheri" bias . Sila perukku kELvi keTkattAn teriyum ( some people know how to raise questions only!) - like the darumi in ThiruviLaiyADal.


And my answer is patronage! It is not always MA and MFA that should do our musical bidding. They showcase capable artists. It is up to the patrons at large to take cue from what happens in MA/MFA, and invite and make artists present a lot of music. Which will relieve them of "ticket sale" pressure! That will allow for satisfaction of most aesthetic demands being raised.

[RSR]

p-160

@SrinathK
Who cares for the respect of you and your ilk? I repeat- SSP is useless as a history of the composers . I do not like the MD SCHOOL much. except for a few songs that too due to the artiste's rendering. He does not really belong to the bhakthi tradiotions message. of Dasapoets , SS and TS.
I do not believe in astrology, mantra, thanthra and chakra stuff. I endorse the criticism and denunciation even of such beliefs by TS and SS. .
Hugely amused by the character who finds eroticism in Thiruppaavai of AAndaaL.Do you understand Thamizh at all?

Surely, I am not posting here for self-styled wiz-kids.
Nothing is lost if my posts are not liked by you. or read by you. I care too hoots. .

[Ananthakrishna]

Who cares for the respect of you and your ilk? I repeat- SSP is useless as a history of the composers . I do not like the MD SCHOOL much. except for a few songs that too due to the artiste's rendering. He does not really belong to the bhakthi tradiotions message. of Dasapoets , SS and TS.

This post reveals several misconceptions about the traditions of the MD school as well as Tyagaraja. The MD school is a very important school of thought, and has contributed greatly to the spread and development of Carnatic Music. Also, an analysis of his compositions reveals that, MD was also a pious bhakta. He may not have been as emotionally “passionate” as the others you have mentioned, but he was a bhakta all the same. If I’m not wrong, he seemed to choose a path to the divine that was based on Bhakti yoga and Jnana yoga in equal measure. He was indeed a bhakta, and the stunningly beautiful descriptions of the gods and goddesses, and the fine details her reveals about their worship tell us that he was a keen observer, and a keener devotee.

The SSP is an extremely important source of historical informatIon. Highly accurate biographies of important musical personalities are given, but anyway, that is not the main focus or aim of the SSP. The SSP exists to educate us about the Dikshitar school of musical thought, and those who have read it and understood it quote it in relevant places. We cannot misquote the SSP in irrelevant places and then call it useless.

The dangerous tradition of “blind bhaktification” of Tyagaraja is one that ought to stop. From where did we learn that Tyagaraja shunned astrology (or even esoteric worship for that matter)? He was also an astrologer who even taught others astrology! He famously consulted the stars himself, before declining Swathi Thirunal’s invitation. Grahabalamemi does not shun astrology. It merely says that even the power of the grahas is secondary to the power of lord Rama.

It’s nice that we now have some clarity. Since you don’t like the MD school, SSP, Sringara rasa compositions, e.t.c. as your personal tastes don’t align with then, could you please not comment on these topics before doing a lot of research? Unfortunately your pronounced disaffection for these aspects of CM are leading to your positing and quoting historical facts of dubious authenticity. We do welcome your comment on any issue, but if you feel like the inherent bias is not letting actual facts shine through, then please research and get the facts verified!

Finally, kindly do use civil and respectful language while arguing! Using snide remarks and rude language only detracts from your arguments.

[RSR]

P-166
@Ananthakrishna
As I am not much interested in 'notated music', the chapters on MD kruthis are of no value to me.
As a policy of evaluation, I hate Narasthuthi. After all, SSP has plenty of it.
Fortunately, the notes on composers is brief and can be read in full. For a person who lived in the same period as Barathy and Tagore, his world view is dismally tied up to the hamlet Ettayapuram.
The names of the composers are jumbled. without much historical arrangement and sequence.
No mention about 1) Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan- exact contemporary
2) No mention about Annamacharya but only about his son.
3) A lot of omissions of well-known MD kruthis.
4) No court-musicin could really avoid Narasthuthi.
---------------
I do not care to be advised by persons who speak ill of Smt.MS
Get it. and stop bullying me.
I never think along caste lines . and probe into personal lives of musicians. Avoid gossip mongers. Remove the para on Smt.MS and her mother. and if you have any decency, make a public apology in this forum.

[Ananthakrishna]

P-166
@Ananthakrishna
As I am not much interested in 'notated music', the chapters on MD kruthis are of no value to me.
As a policy of evaluation, I hate Narasthuthi. After all, SSP has plenty of it.
Fortunately, the notes on composers is brief and can be read in full. For a person who lived in the same period as Barathy and Tagore, his world view is dismally tied up to the hamlet Ettayapuram.

I think the SSP you are referring to and the SSP we are referring to are two completely different treatises! I wonder which version and translation you have read, to have developed and acquired such a different view about the SSP, and a potentially misleading one at that.

No mention about 1) Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan- exact contemporary
3) A lot of omissions of well-known MD kruthis.

As mentioned earlier, Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan is completely irrelevant to the SSP. The SSP serves the purpose of being a means of understanding Carnatic music history, and offers a view of a different pathantaram, parampara and musical thought. Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer is irrelevant to the context and therefore he has not been included. As a researcher, Subbarama Dikshitar included only the most relevant facts in the SSP.

It's been some time since I have read the vaggeyakara charitramu in the SSP, so I'll get back to you on the Annamacharya point.

Regarding the omission of krithis, please note that most of the "MD krithis" we hear in concerts today are almost certainly of dubious authorship. Indeed, dubious krithis like Akhilandeshwari, Rangapuravihara, Mahaasuram ketum, e.t.c have not been included, and we should be grateful that Subbarama Dikshitar has shown us a way to judge the authenticity of a Dikshitar composition, he has shown us a path to singing and presenting MD compositions as MD envisioned it. We should be eternally grateful because he included only the compositions which are definitely MD's own creations. There do exist other authentic MD compositions that aren't found in the SSP, but we judge their authenticity based on what the SSP has taught us. Without understanding the significance, importance or even the content of the SSP, don't pass judgement on it.

I do not care to be advised by persons who speak ill of Smt.MS
Get it. and stop bullying me.
I never think along caste lines . and probe into personal lives of musicians. Avoid gossip mongers. Remove the para on Smt.MS and her mother. and if you have any decency, make a public apology in this forum.

I have not spoken ill of MSS, and I have nothing to apologize for. And in what way have I bullied you? Please do not make provocative and irrelevant statements and comments. A humble request. Thanks.

[shreyas]

Ok, seeing as this thread has been thoroughly derailed, I suggest we move back to the topic at hand.

Another question that presented itself to me recently was why neraval and thanam have been given short shrift in the modern kutcheri format, when both are not only aesthetically important forms of manodharma but also effective means by which an artist may prove their virtuosity.

Also, @RSR, I do not even know how to react to your brazen criticism of the SSP. I do not know why the worth of such a historically seminal document should be judged by any one of us, especially when it remains the sole source of the authentic MD patantharam. Just because you dislike the MD school doesn't mean it has no worth. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, staying true to these hoary patantharams is one of the 'traditions' I support, because when we have information about how a vaggeyakara is likely to have written his/her work, the least we can do is respect their choices rather than dismissing them because we couldn't care less. The SSP is one of the most, if not THE most, important Carnatic treatise there ever has been. Period.

[sureshvv]

ippa naanum T M Krishna mAdiri pEsa arambicuTTEn"

neenga thaan sir original

[rajeshnat]

Another question that presented itself to me recently was why neraval and thanam have been given short shrift in the modern kutcheri format, when both are not only aesthetically important forms of manodharma but also effective means by which an artist may prove their virtuosity.

Because kutcheris are usually 2 hours and if you are lucky some times you get 2 and half hours.Unless you are able to pull and work with organizers you usually never get 3 hours which i think is ideal . That is all. It is laws of time restriction, quite frankly the no or RTPS that are sung by modern musicians are far far more in the last 20 years when compared to 50 years before . Ofcourse only few sing well the RTP , few donot .

[shreyas]

@rajeshnat you can be like SSI and sing thanam before krithis

[RSR]

p-168
@Ananthakrishna
My SSP!
http://www.ibiblio.org/guruguha/ssp.htm

[The Lost Melodies]

Did you really see the wonderful site? I had read upto the quote in one sitting. I am sufficiently well-read and many more fields like History, Western and Indian Philosophy, the significance of Bhakthi movement, Political history, English, and Bengali literature and the classics of Russian Literature in English translation.
So don't lecture to me.

Where did you find me lecturing you? It was you doing that. Never mind.
For your information, I am dealing with people of different ages and mindsets as a daily routine. Analyzing an individual by their words and gesture is inevitable for me to be in my profession.

Do you think I have posed those questions to get a reply from you? Not at all
This form is visited by many and those who read this should get a clear picture of you. My aim was to expose your true intentions.
My mission is accomplished.

As usual, your knowledge about SSP is negligible. SD has mentioned Annamacharya. Go and strike your head to misinterpret.

[rajeshnat]

I think more than order and sequence , the right balance of manodharmam and structure is the key. Raikas have to latch the focus and look forward in a concert. and not lose concentration . A sudden surprise that gives more focus towards say at a midpoint of a concert say around 90th or 100th minute for example That pallavi on vinayaka in malahari by TNS and once a pallavi on vinayaka in simmhendra madhyamam by suryaprakash in doyen manakkal rangarajan arranged by coolkarni were all novel ideas that the musician tried that day for sure and it clicked . Once I heard a sudden start by lovely vidushi Pantula rama in taanam. We have the genius Abhishek who only goes with limited numbers. All this is style that needs adequate mastery of musical skills.

For a lovely post of ananthakrishna CRama has given a clean reply bit later . Also that post by SrinathK perhaps sums up this tired and often regurgitated topic .

TMK in some occassions in early to midpoint of the concert does indeed bring a surprise for eg once when he started with a yadhukulakambOdhi then he sang a lovely kaapi intha sowkya , i thoroughly enjoyed it .But bit later towards he purposely ends with a vathapi in hamsadhwani where he just sang vathapi like a utsava sampradaya krithi (that was neither in the class of say MDR in chowka kaalam nor SSI racy sangathi ferrari race, he did not make up his mind on musical part ) TMK only wanted to showcase hey look i am surprising you with a vinayaka and hamsadhwani instead of pavamana.That appeared like how I used to sing before my paatu class vaadiyar at the end of 10 days after learning 2 2 sangathis each day and singing from memory and rote at the end of 10th day. So this innovation for innovation sake is absolute nonsense he is just manipulating rasikas . He successfully builds a case where even though he proved for 100 mins that kutcheri paddhati is bit suffocating , but at the last 10 mins he fell flat on the ground. All our anecdotes that MDR sang mohanam varnam , SSI sang dinamani vamsa start is all great but we donot know how the concert turned out for the remaining concert , may be MDR or SSI had a train to catch in 2 hours on that day. May be MDR lost his steam in main skipped neraval and sang few rounds of swaras and gave a long tani .

Each of us push our partial one sixer usual out of sequence that we like and we erroneously extrapolate as though the whole concert was great . WE donot know how we can compare this shift in sequence number versus the same musician in some concert where we have recordings of an entire concert in a general paddhati order. Most importantly the fatigue of especially mrudangist also has to be taken into consideration, he is playing with his raw hands .

Some structural(song selection) planning is needed to have a functional (manodharmam)flow. Ofcourse I know one musician who broke the tradition , Once Madurai Somu sang madurai mani mAmaniyE murugaiyya as the first song to drive away the overflowing crowd , i dont know what he sang after that film song, But i am sure even if i had come 2 hours late , he must have sang for another 2 more hours which is what i miss nowadays . It is sad sometimes that We are all forced to listen to manodharmam outpourings where musician are filling in sachets their ideas. The cause of sachet manodharmam is not related to paddhati for sure.

[rajeshnat]

Ananthakrishan, Crama and Srinath - Thank you for your posts in this thread , For few weeks i had so much work i did not read much . Only now i read all your posts in full.

[SrinathK]

P-166
@Ananthakrishna
As I am not much interested in 'notated music', the chapters on MD kruthis are of no value to me.
For a person who lived in the same period as Barathy and Tagore, his world view is dismally tied up to the hamlet Ettayapuram.

You're the height of irony in making this statement because your world view is narrower than the eye of a needle and cannot even digest live performances for starters, or anything after the 60s.

Also even more ironically you always seem to have the most expert controversial judgement on topics you later admit you know nothing or care to bother about. You did the same thing with Thyagaraja's natakas and caused a riot there also. Now you did this with Dikshitar also.

You only start blowing up every thread with increasingly provocative and shocking remarks and then complain about others. This thread was about the confines of tradition and then you took it on another turn, the confines of your mind!

Those who wear rose tinted glasses see the whole world as pink. The tradition of the music is vast and goes on for thousands of years across continents and it not nearly as confined as your mind or anyone else's.

New discoveries are always being made every day, whether it is recordings or texts. Just because you don't like it doesn't make something valueless in any absolute sense. We have never criticized your contributions like music websites and online collections, but we appreciate it.

So kindly stop dissing on the efforts of those who care and are contributing to music in other ways apart from yourself.

[SrinathK]

Anyway, just to return to the original topic of this thread, one good thing is that if one wants to know where is the current limit of what is known in Carnatic music tradition, rasikas.org is the place to be.

With this I hope that when the mods wake up to the morning, whichever time zone they are in, they will sing the mangalam to this thread. Even Tamilnadu election fever and the summer heat isn't burning like rasikas.org right now.

Enough already!

[RSR]

p-174
tlm
http://www.ibiblio.org/guruguha/ssp.htm

@the lost melodies
I challenge you in this public forum to prove that SSP has mentioned Annamacharya.

[bhakthim dehi]

vEga lEci nITa munigi bhUti pUsi
2vELLan(e)nci 3veliki SlAghanIyulai

Getting up (lEci) early in the morning (vEga), taking bath (nITa munigi) (literally taking dip in water), smearing (pUsi) sacred ash (bhUti) on the body,
(performing japa by) counting (enci) fingers (vELLanu) (veLLanenci), and posing (veliki) (literally ostensibly) as praise-worthy (SlAghanIyulai),

Can anyone guess a forumite who can be related to these lines?
A person who interacts with us. A person who appears to be much fond of tradition, but has a secretive agenda to spoil the same. A person who projects him as a follower of Bhakti cult, but takes all efforts to deride the same. Yes, it is @RSR

Till now I was of the impression that RSR belongs to this era. After reading these lines,

Roopamu was not composed by MD. but by his father.

I realize he is the man who has crossed the ages. He was with Ramaswami Dikshitar, and hence much sure about the authorship

MD was actually poor. and never sought patronage from anyone. throughout his life. He never indulged in Nara Sthuthi

As I am not much interested in 'notated music', the chapters on MD kruthis are of no value to me.
As a policy of evaluation, I hate Narasthuthi. After all, SSP has plenty of it.

See the tone of the statement. Unbelievable!

Unfortunately, he was blessed only with the boon of seeing those great composers and not a good comprehensive power . I wish the readers to read the discussion between me and RSR on earlier topic.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=824&p=357557&hilit ... va#p357557

I have not involved in this argument till now. Having known about him that he will not have any genuine points to argue, I don’t want to waste my time. But his comments about Jayadeva made me enter.

I have warned him that I will not be witnessing him spoiling our tradition or taking some nonsense about Acharya Mahapurushas. As usual, in the mentioned thread, he was unable to argue sensibly, not willing to learn, and begged me to leave him.

So be it. if you prefer hen to a duck. 'worser' is wrong. 'just worse'.
Leave me alone. Will you?

I hope he has forgotten this and it's time for me to remind him again.
This (redacted) to talk ill about Jayadeva.

This post will be harsh and personal. Light-hearted people are requested to stay away. When he can disrespect Avatara purushas, I have equal rights to disrespect a mortal.

He projects himself as a serious follower of Carnatic music, a person who is interested in bhakthi movements. He not only hates srungara, but also spews venom on other forumites. Having shown his true colour, let me analyze who the real RSR is through his posts. I will prove he is a narcissist, a person who is totally ignorant about our tradition and not having any solid opinions.

Even Prahalaadha Bakthi Vijayamu is taking too much liberty with the accepted story of Prahalaadhan in Baagavatham.

Yes, Prahlada Bhakta Vijayam was an imagination. Does not entitled to have his own imagination? This is nothing against tradition.

Conversely, what do you know about the Prahlada Charitram? Do you how many versions exist for this story? I bet you don’t know.

SSP author is said to have had some issues with Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan.

The aim of Subbarama Deekshitar was not to catalog all the musicians. In that case, what is wrong in leaving a personality? He has not left Jayadeva or Kshetrayya.

Are you aware of the musicians mentioned by him, if not for SSP? Being a narcissist, you don’t wish to appreciate his efforts.

Carnatic classical music is definitely based on Bhakthi movement tradition. People who deny that are 'illiterate'.

You are an illiterate. Why did you quote Bharati and Tagore? Bharati has composed on all the genres and he was a musician by himself. He was close to SD.

Now comes the next segment.. He cannot frame any opinions and contradicts his own statements.

For me, the icons as composers of CM are PurandaraDasa, Kanakadasa, Bhadrachalam Ramadasu, Thyagaraja Swami , Shyamasastry and finally MD.

p-103

I do not like the MD SCHOOL much. except for a few songs that too due to the artiste's rendering. He does not really belong to the bhakthi tradiotions message. of Dasapoets , SS and TS.

p-160

When you are not interested in their works, why should you be worried about the authorship of ‘rupamu juchi’ and other spurious kritis of MD?

This is only some of his contradictions. He talks like an expert, says much shocking things later he claims he does not know or is not interested in the topic

First, learn to frame some opinions. That can happen only if you read and learn. Don’t contradict your own statements (redacted) again and again. We all know about you.

You basically have a problem with srungara rasa. Additionally, you cannot tolerate others talking about srungara rasa. If you explore this anomaly, this definitely leads to a psychological disorder. You wanted to burn down the srungara padams of Annamacharya and repeatedly made bad remarks on varnams and padams and tillana. Since you are a narcissist and have a toxic personality, you are unable to differentiate this mortal sex from the divine unison. Though you think highly of yourself, you lack the required knowledge, a basic trait of a narcissist. On top of this, you are shameless. All these traits viz, lack of knowledge, being egoistic, shameless and narcissistic, and not willing to abide by the tenets of a religion is a dangerous combination. Happily, you are willing to expose all these traits.

I do not believe in astrology, mantra, thanthra and chakra stuff. I endorse the criticism and denunciation even of such beliefs by TS and SS. .

Who cares? (redacted)
Tyagarajar and Syama Sastrigal were good astrologers. SS also had deities of meru, kamakshi, vinayaga and shyama krishna, all used in Sri vidya. Like MD, SS also was initiates in sri vidya. I know, you cannot speak facts.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make something valueless in any absolute sense.

Don't expect him to understand

I really had an opportunity to witness the wonderful posts made by others. They are to be appreciated. There is no point in discriminating against them based on their age. Their knowledge and understanding are certainly laudable.

Forumites, please understand. A worm, swarming in drainage cannot understand the value of Ganga theertha. So, don’t try to waste your time with RSR. He is much toxic, perverted and a moron of first order. He lacks any opinions and contradicts his own statement. He is not here to discuss in a healthy way; rather he is to share his useful thoughts. He cannot indulge in an evidence-based argument.

He is a pervert and you cannot expect a person who equates devadasis with call girls or makes statements about only male progeny not being sinful. This is the height of obscenity and he is talking great about MS and her music. I am not here to believe this. He certainly has a secret agenda. My point gets validated if you read his "tiltillating trash" comments on Devi Bhagavatam (Refer to the link given above) or Arunachala Kavi being "banal" Or rasa leela in bhagavata being a blot. Or as he recently claimed that prahlada bhakta vijayam is also spurious.

The moment he has started to use abusive language, he has lost his front. Being a narcissist, he is unable to give up. This is an experience for us to deal with a narcissist who is not equipped with the necessary knowledge to touch a topic like this. Every one of you @Ananthakrishna, @Sreyas, @Srinath, @Sankarank, and @The Lost Melodies has done a great job.

(Redacted)

Moderators too can consider closing this thread.

@RSR, I know you will come up with an awkward post, targeting me personally. Don’t worry, I will not respond. Remember, your incorrect facts will be highlighted and ignorance will be exposed by me always.

[SrinathK]

YEOOWW! Please mods!

[RasikasModerator1]

Dear members, we have no choice but to close the thread for now. We got too many complaints by all of you against one another. First thing in the morning the inbox is full of reports and emails and even whatsapp.

Maybe all of you should be thrown in the Himalayan Ganga to cool down the forum.

But we are locking this thread and cutting out the personal attacks. Again and again despite many requests, all threads are getting derailed.