Suggestions for quiz

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 00:07

Well. In any case, 35 is Wrong.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 25 Jan 2007, 00:11

ramakriya wrote:Which source shows it as ragupati?

See here: http://carnatica.net/special/raganubhav ... am-ppn.htm

The ancient name of mOhanam is â€œrEguptiâ€

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 25 Jan 2007, 00:22

jayaram wrote:I had read somewhere that the number is 35. Wish I could lay my hands on the reference...

jayaram,

You may be referning to the fact that sangItasAra (of vidyaraNya) describes 15 mElas and 35 janya rAgas born from these mELas .. But in the given context of the question, it is not relevant.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 25 Jan 2007, 00:23

jayaram wrote:
ramakriya wrote:Which source shows it as ragupati?

See here: http://carnatica.net/special/raganubhav ... am-ppn.htm

The ancient name of mOhanam is â€œrEguptiâ€

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Jan 2007, 00:26

DRS,
Interesting that the hindi word for 32 (battIs) is used to mean 32 in this context as well. And for that reason, any number other than 32 will not fit here.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 25 Jan 2007, 00:31

drshrikaanth wrote:
ramakriya wrote:
18) During the haridAsa period, among the many rAgas known, a set number of rAgas occupied the pride of place.How many were they?
Answer: 32(battIsa rAgagaLu)
Actually the concept of 32 important rAgas goes to a period few centuries earlier than haridAsas.
Certainly the "battIsa rAgagaLu" concept was not restricted to the haridAsa period or movement. I have not said this either in the question. But haridAsas certainly endorsed it, used it and spread it. Anyway, if I put everything in the question, that would simply be an explanation and give away the answer wouldn't it?

The set of battIsa rAgas was not always constant. The number certainly was. This concept of grouping rakti/popular rAgas was present for a very long time in the music scene of the kannaDa land. It was very much an indigenous concept having no such parallel in the rest of the country. SivatattvaratnAkara, the encyclopaedic work of the keLadi kng basavarAja mentions the concept and lists the rAgas as well. I think, nijaguNa SivayOgi also mentions the concept.

I do not dispute that at all. I only pointed out the antiquity of the concept of battIsa rAgas. Since both Basappa Nayaka and Nijaguna Shivayogi are both post Purandara Dasa, it is certain that they are carrying the tradition from vachanakAra's and Haridasa's time.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 00:36

rshankar wrote:DRS,
Interesting that the hindi word for 32 (battIs) is used to mean 32 in this context as well. And for that reason, any number other than 32 will not fit here.

Yes. It is very interesting that some of the prAkrit(Iam not sure Hindi was around then) numbers have been used to denote groups of set numbers in ancient kannaDa literature/tradition. battIsa rAgas and chappannaivattAru dESagaLu( 56 contries). of course aThArAkachEri is a more moder counterpart(From Hyder-Tipu times I should think)

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Jan 2007, 01:33

rshankar wrote:DRS,
Interesting that the hindi word for 32 (battIs) is used to mean 32 in this context as well. And for that reason, any number other than 32 will not fit here.

In tamizh we often use the number 32 to mean "how often"
for eg" I told you 32 times"

Do speakers of other languages have this term in their language.

Anyway, why 32 ragas were used by Haridasas?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 01:36

Suji Ram wrote:In tamizh we often use the number 32 to mean "how often"
for eg" I told you 32 times"

Do speakers of other languages have this term in their language.

Usually the 8 series is used in kannaDa- 28, 48, 58, 108; also the 5 series- 25, 45. 15. Not the series.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 25 Jan 2007, 02:14

Anyway, why 32 ragas were used by Haridasas?

Thirty-two lakshanas or perfections of a goddess are alluded to in Buddhist literature. This may have had its origins in Hindu religion, and could have a bearing on 32 ragas.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 02:36

rbharath wrote:and about other ragams which have crept into madhyama sruthi, quite surprisingly, SSP says "indha rAgam madhyama rAgam endru mayanga kUDAdu" for kuranji

I checked SSP. The wording in SSP was rather cryptic

"Just because this rAga is mentioned first in the list of upAnga rAgas in the gite of venkaTamakhi, it should not be mistaken(bhramiyincu) for a madhyarAga".

Now, what is the connection between being mentioned first and singing in madhyama Sruti. This connection is certainly not borne out for punnAgavarALi or navarOju. Also, judging by the tone of subbarAa dIkShitar, it appears that the practice of singing kuranji in madhyama Sruti had already become quite well-accepted by his time.

I have decided to give the benefit of doubt and give marks to the few who have given kuranji as one of the answers for the said question.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 02:41

hee are the much-awaited scores. Highest scorer is Ramakriya with 15/20. Congrats.

Other scores in the order of entries received

ammamaha-7, venkatpv-9, ksrimech-9, vijay-4, vasya10- 8, srinidhi-10, rbharath-8, lakshman-8, Rajeshnat-10, Sridevi-8, Suji Ram-14, Mohan-13, Thanjavur-10, Jayaram-12, Ranjani-5.

Good job everyone.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Jan 2007, 02:41

Can anyone throw some light on mAlavaSri rAga used in singing prabhandas

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:16

Jayaram:
Your question was about the 32 rAgAs.

I read somewhere that there are 40 vivadi mELAs and thus 72 minus 40 will give you the 32 rakti rAgAs.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:19

I have a question about this question

9) When are 2 swaras called vivAdi swaras?

When there is an interval of just one SRuti between the 2 swaras (EkaSruti)

I am aware of this definition given in caturdanDi prakAshike. But as per the same text, the rishabha in shankarAbharana/Sriraga etc is called panchashruti rishabha, and it is 2 shrutis higher than shuddha rishabha. This note is same as shuddha gAndhAra as well. Now, since shuddha rishabha is said to be 3 shrutis from shaDja, does it not make a 2 shruti interval between the two vivAdi notes? How do we resolve this?

If we consider the popular notion that the rishabha in Sriraga/ shankarAbharaNa is chatusshruti, then there is no issue.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:27

Lakshman wrote:I read somewhere that there are 40 vivadi mELAs and thus 72 minus 40 will give you the 32 rakti rAgAs.

This is not correct. Absence of vivAdi swaras does not automatically make a rAga rakti rAga. neither does the presence of a vivAdi note disqualify a rAga rom being a rakti rAga. rakti rAgas are thos rAga that quickly evoke rakti/pleasure on listening. They re also called naya rAgas.

V.S. Sampatkumaracharya and V.Ramaratnam opine that nayarAgas are those which shine well in viLamba tempo.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:29

Suji Ram wrote:Can anyone throw some light on mAlavaSri rAga used in singing prabhandas

Now this is one question for which I did not know the answer, and without caturdandi in hand, would not have been able to answer correctly! While descrbing different types of prabandhas, it defines svarAnka prabhandha, and indicates it has to be sung in mAlavaSrI rAga.

Here is a rendition of a Tyagaraja kriti in mAlavaSrI

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/c ... ragam.136/

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:30

Lakshman wrote:I read somewhere that there are 40 vivadi mELAs and thus 72 minus 40 will give you the 32 rakti rAgAs.

Lakshman, thanks for that.
However, the 32 ragas for the Haridasa list are not all mela ragas. I believe some of them belong to the same mela (e.g. Todi/Ahiri, Saranga/Kalyani). So not sure if this arithmetic can account for the 32.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:33

DRS,
what is your source of Gundakriya melting stone when Hanuman sang?
One search did gave me this reference in The Hindu.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:LQe ... =clnk&cd=3

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:35

jayaram wrote:
Lakshman wrote:I read somewhere that there are 40 vivadi mELAs and thus 72 minus 40 will give you the 32 rakti rAgAs.
Lakshman, thanks for that.
However, the 32 ragas for the Haridasa list are not all mela ragas. I believe some of them belong to the same mela (e.g. Todi/Ahiri, Saranga/Kalyani). So not sure if this arithmetic can account for the 32.

As I indicated in some earlier posts, the 32 rAga concept predates the 72 mEla concept by several centuries; So this has to be ruled out.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:42

One list of battIsa rAgagaLu I have

8 puruSha rAgas- bhairavi, bhUpALa, SrIrAga, rAgapanjara, vasanta, mALava, bangALa, naTTa

24 strI rAgas (3 for each puruSha rAga)-
dEvakriya, mEgharanji, kuranji (For bhairavi)
vELAvaLi, malahari, bhauli (For bhUpALa)
AndhALi, bhallAti, mAhuri (For SrIrAga)
dESi, alita, tODi For rAgapanjara)
rAmakriya, varALi, kauSi (For vasanta)
guNDakriya, ghUrjari, gauLi (for mALava)
karNATa, kAmbOdhi, dhanyAsi (For bangALa)
dESAkShi, Ahiri, nARAyaNi (For naTTa)

(Im not sure where I got this is from. Very likely one of the two sources I mentioned earlier)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:55

Suji Ram wrote:DRS,
what is your source of Gundakriya melting stone when Hanuman sang?
One search did gave me this reference in The Hindu.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:LQe ... =clnk&cd=3

My memory

The only reference you get on googling for guNDakriya, hanumanta is my post in this forum. I have already given a link for the same.

If you use guntakriya, hanuman for Google search, you come up with this

http://www.hindu.com/ms/2005/12/16/stor ... 190600.htm

That apart, the anecdote is also quoted by V.S.Sampatkumaracharya and V.Ramaratnam in their book "karNATaka sangIta dIpike"

Iam almost sure it also figures in the "karNATaka sangItada pAribhAShika SabdakOSa"- the encyclopaedia of CM from Mysore Uni.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 25 Jan 2007, 04:00

drshrikaanth wrote:My memory

That apart, the anecdote is also quoted by V.S.Sampatkumaracharya and V.Ramaratnam in their book "karNATaka sangIta dIpike"

iam almost sure it also figurse in the "karNATaka sangItada pAribhAShika SabdakOSa2- the mencyclopaedi of CM from Mysore Uni.

I too wrote it from my memory; Probably read it in the book second book you have cited.

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Jan 2007, 04:08

Thanks DRS,
I presume these are books in KannadA.
KannadA book references make their way into this forum only through you and few others. Thanks.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 25 Jan 2007, 05:16

Interesting to note that one source says Todi, the other Gundakriya. Perhaps they both can melt stones?
By the way, I wonder if 'stone' is used here figuratively, i.e. even a stone-hearted person will melt when they hear these ragas.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 25 Jan 2007, 05:17

I think at this stage Ramakriya is the leader of the pack. Congrats, Ramakriya!
Btw, if you want to form a team with me, I won't say No!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 25 Jan 2007, 06:20

Thanks Jayaram

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Jan 2007, 06:27

ramakriya wrote:I have a question about this question

9) When are 2 swaras called vivAdi swaras?

When there is an interval of just one SRuti between the 2 swaras (EkaSruti)

I am aware of this definition given in caturdanDi prakAshike. But as per the same text, the rishabha in shankarAbharana/Sriraga etc is called panchashruti rishabha, and it is 2 shrutis higher than shuddha rishabha. This note is same as shuddha gAndhAra as well. Now, since shuddha rishabha is said to be 3 shrutis from shaDja, does it not make a 2 shruti interval between the two vivAdi notes? How do we resolve this?

If we consider the popular notion that the rishabha in Sriraga/ shankarAbharaNa is chatusshruti, then there is no issue.

-Ramakriya

Per old texts (all the way to bharata period), swaras separated by two (not one) sruthis had a vivAdi relationship. So even in those old days, the gandara and nishada were tagged vivadi in some contexts (as gandara was 2 sruthis from rishaba, and nishada from dhaivata), and hence were not be used as amsa etc. This doesnt of course mean they were considered vivadi swaras in the same token as vivadi swaras of today - but it did seem to imply that their usage was less prominent in comparison with others.

Note that in those days there was no occurence of two swaras separated by 1 sruthi together in use. The eka-sruthi interval was there only between the 2 panchamas of 2 gramas and hence would never be employed together. The only possibilities of 2-sruthis interval was R-G and D-N. You did have antara gandara, kakali etc. which added more possibilities for 2-sruthi interval, but again in those days these did not have swara status and were merely considered variations of the (then suddha) gandhara and nishada. Later on (SarngadEva) you had other variants (cyuta-sadja etc.), which also introduced possibility of 1-sruthi intervals but again those wont be in use together. I think cyuta-sadja was a variant of sadja and so wont appear along with it.

This is all from memory and so i could be remembering things wrong.

Or is it that swaras that are one semi-tone apart are vivadi? Is that how it is in HM where they still talk about samvAdi, anuvAdi etc. This would then include S-R1, R1-G1, R2-G2, R3-G3, G3-M1, M2-P, P-D1, D1-N1, D2-N2, D3-N3, and N3-S as having a vivAdi relationship. Not sure if this makes sense.

Drs - can you pl. provide a reference about ekaSruthi and vivadi please?

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Jan 2007, 06:30

drshrikaanth wrote:One list of battIsa rAgagaLu I have

8 puruSha rAgas- bhairavi, bhUpALa, SrIrAga, rAgapanjara, vasanta, mALava, bangALa, naTTa

24 strI rAgas (3 for each puruSha rAga)-
dEvakriya, mEgharanji, kuranji (For bhairavi)
vELAvaLi, malahari, bhauli (For bhUpALa)
AndhALi, bhallAti, mAhuri (For SrIrAga)
dESi, alita, tODi For rAgapanjara)
rAmakriya, varALi, kauSi (For vasanta)
guNDakriya, ghUrjari, gauLi (for mALava)
karNATa, kAmbOdhi, dhanyAsi (For bangALa)
dESAkShi, Ahiri, nARAyaNi (For naTTa)

(Im not sure where I got this is from. Very likely one of the two sources I mentioned earlier)

I notice kalyANi is missing in this but ramakriya's included it. That is interesting. Wasnt that a "later" raga?

Arun

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 25 Jan 2007, 06:48

Hmm, bhairavi and sriragam are purusha; todi and kambodhi are strI ragas. Go figure!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 25 Jan 2007, 10:06

||

arunk wrote:I notice kalyANi is missing in this but ramakriya's included it. That is interesting. Wasnt that a "later" raga?

Arun

Arun,

Even though kalyANi was a "later" rAga, it must have been in use for at least a century before puranadara dAsa.

Three charaNas of a dEvaranAma of SrIpAdarAya (lAli gOvinda lAli) have this in 3 of the charaNas.

.....
Ananda bharitarAgi tUgidaru Ananda bhairaviyinda||
.....
sallalilta gAnadinda tUgidaru kalyANi rAgadinda ||
.....
dEvagandharvaru pADi tUgudaru dEvagaNdhAradinda ||
....

Thus we see Kalyani being mentioned with Ananda bhairavi and dEvagandhAra around 1450 AD; about 2 generations before Purandara Dasa, and about 200 years before Venkatamakhi dropped it off saying it is a rAga liked by turushkas!

SripAdarAyaru lived between 140 4AD - 1502 AD

-Ramakriya

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 25 Jan 2007, 11:23

[quote="thanjavur"]From Google

Raganubhava - Mohanam - PPN
The ancient name of mOhanam is â€œrEguptiâ€

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 25 Jan 2007, 15:06

Quick clarification for your answer
8) The dhaivata is used only once (as part of PDNP phrase)

DRS,
Is this using only once called alpatva or alpa.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 15:45

rajeshnat wrote:Is this using only once called alpatva or alpa.

alpatva simply means "Sparing use" and is further subdivided into langhana and anabhyAsa. Using only once will fall into the category of alpatva/anabhyAsa but the term alpatva is not specific enough as it could be used to term using once, or twice or thrice for example. SO that answer is not specific enough for the question.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 15:49

mohan wrote:From Google

Raga Mohana
Other Names: Mohanam; Bhoop (Hindustani); Regupti ( Tamil Pan).
Arohana: S R2 G2 P D2 S || S Ri Gu Pa Dhi S Avarohana: S D2 P G2 R1 S || S Dhi Pa Gu Ra S ...
http://www.rit.edu/~pnveme/raga/Raga_Mohana.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

Mohana Raga - Sify.com
Mohanam is one of the oldest ragas and had been used in rendering Tiruvachakam hymns
in raga Regupti which is similar to Mohanam in Tamil music. ...
http://sify.com/carnaticmusic/fullstory.php?id=13498530 - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

I doubt very much if rEgupti was ever the name of the tamizh paNN. Simple linguistic rules rule this name out. Te name starts with "r" and no taizh word can ever start with that letter. And if you are talking of paNN names a millenium or two ago, that simply will not do at all.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 16:02

arunk wrote:Drs - can you pl. provide a reference about ekaSruthi and vivadi please?-Arun

Here we go

Evam samvAdilakShmOktam vivAdI lakShyatE-dhunA |
EkaSrutyantaritA yayOstu svarayOrdvayayOH ||148||

tayOrmithO vivAditvamEvam sarvatra kalpayEt |
rigau dhanI ca SuddhEShu swarau syAtAm vivAdinau ||149||

(caturdaNDIprkASikA, swaraprakaraNam)

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 25 Jan 2007, 17:29

I have been mis-quoted! I merely asked "are we sure it is there in the copper plates of Annamacharya?"

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 17:35

No Mohan. I did not msiquote you. I just quoted your quote and pointed out the error there.

With regards to rEgupti/raghupati- Iam sure of that being the name in copper plates of annamAcArya.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 25 Jan 2007, 17:37

Hmmm...finished at bottom of the pile this time...but my hands are itching already, irrespective of my unspectacular performance! I need to shore up my averages! Doc can we have another audio round over the weekend?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 25 Jan 2007, 17:38

The way I have been quoted seems like I stated the error! Actually thanjavur has quoted google.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 25 Jan 2007, 17:50

Mohan - that's ok, DRS did the same trick on me once before

Looks like we don't have a documented reference for the rEgupti-Annamcharya assertion.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 17:54

jayaram wrote:Mohan - that's ok, DRS did the same trick on me once before

Jayaram. you ought to be thankful that people here dont quote you more often and take you to task

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 25 Jan 2007, 18:06

That's loose talk. Care to elaborate?

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 25 Jan 2007, 19:20

drs,
I am taking few days off (26th Jan being a republic day)away from the internet and forums. If you are conducting the next round of quiz , would be nice if you start from monday-29th Jan. You can still go ahead immediately if u are hard pressed for time in the next week.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Jan 2007, 22:20

One quiz per week is what I would like..

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Jan 2007, 22:31

Suji Ram wrote:One quiz per week is what I would like..

You mean 1 round per week? We are nearly finsihed. I was thinking of putting up the next round tomorrow or the day after. I am not a fan of giving huge breaks between rounds.

What do others say?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 26 Jan 2007, 00:13

drshrikaanth wrote:
rajeshnat wrote:Is this using only once called alpatva or alpa.
alpatva simply means "Sparing use" and is further subdivided into langhana and anabhyAsa. Using only once will fall into the category of alpatva/anabhyAsa but the term alpatva is not specific enough as it could be used to term using once, or twice or thrice for example. SO that answer is not specific enough for the question.

Even though SSP mentions that "It is the opinion of pUrvAcharyas that the prayOgam 'p d n p' alone can appear only once and not many times in the gIta prabandha kIrtanams and rAga AlApana" (page 451, SSP), I think it is not followed 100% in practice; In that context alpatva may be a better description IMO.

Even in SSP there is a kriti of Ettendra Maharaja - shaDAdhAra tattva vinAyaka, notated in page 462-463, in which we can see the prayOga 'p d n p' occuring thrice; once in the pallavi, once in charaNa and once again in the chiTTe swara.

T.V.Subbarao, and S.R.Janakiraman, in the commentory on Tulaja's sangIta sArAmrta, say that "The modern practice, however is to use the dhaivata not in the initial phrases but only in one or two of the final sanchAras"

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Jan 2007, 00:20

ramakriya wrote:Even though SSP mentions that "It is the opinion of pUrvAcharyas that the prayOgam 'p d n p' alone can appear only once and not many times in the gIta prabandha kIrtanams and rAga AlApana" (page 451, SSP), I think it is not followed 100% in practice; In that context alpatva may be a better description IMO.

A mistake cannot make the fact redundant. If people wrongly sing dhaivata more than once for whatever reasons, it is their fault. Not that SrIrAga has to be changed. Tomorrow, someone else will come along and say "as dhaivata is already being used more than once by some musicians, we might as well use it very frequently." That will not be SrIrAga anymore.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 26 Jan 2007, 02:50

DRS,

The point I am trying to make is that there are compositions which violate this 'one time use' rule which Subburama Dikshitar cites. As I remember, even the Adi tALa varna in Sriraga (sAmi ninnE) as I was taught ( not that I can sing it

now!), had two instances of 's n,, p d n p m' - once in the sAhitya and one in the last ettugaDe swara.

-Ramakriya

All,

For the record, let me also state that I gave the answer expected by the quizmaster

in the answersheet, and have scored a point for that question