Suggestions for quiz

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Jan 2007, 05:34

I think you can close it

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 24 Jan 2007, 05:35

It's your call. I wasn't aware you had extended the deadline for the 1st round.

When I said 'to be fair' I meant we had all agreed to a deadline, and that's part of the rules of the game.

ranjani · Post by **ranjani** » 24 Jan 2007, 05:50

Dr Shrikanth,

I sent you my anssers just now. If it is too late, that is ok. I will try for the next round.
Thank you.

Ranjani

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 05:51

Ok guys. i will put up the answers shortly. I will accept entries coming in by the time I type and post the answers on the thread:)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 06:22

The answers are up now.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Jan 2007, 06:32

DRS,

Are you sure Bhairavi Venkatasubbayya was a real person?

-Ramakriya

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 24 Jan 2007, 06:35

Dr. Srikaanth, what do the following reviews mean ?
___________________

From "Trying to Learn Music SEP 2005" (Blog of R. Bharadwaj)

http://me-and-music.blogspot.com/2005_0 ... chive.html

The short sketch of gamakakriyA was good to hear. The kriti was rendered well.
The neraval and svarams were carefully structured to avoid the purvikalyANi phrase 'p d p s'.
It was gamakakriyA to the fullest.
___________________

From "Trying to Learn Music FEB 2006" (Blog of R. Bharadwaj)

http://me-and-music.blogspot.com/2006_0 ... chive.html

The next was the dIkshitar kriti. The AlApanai, neraval and svarams were done true dIkshitar
style carefully not involving p d p s prayogams and carefully showing the quintessential m d n prayOgam
of gamakakriyA time and again. It was nicely rendered with neraval and svarams at
'kAsI pura vAsinIm kAmita pala dAyinIm'. The svara korappu in 4 kalams was very good.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Jan 2007, 06:44

I agree with Thanjavur.

[quote="Dr VV Srivatsa"]Pa-dha-pa-sa was a safety rote prescribed and propagated by an unidentified noble musicologist and musician. God bless him! This proves that Poorva Kalyani is not equal to Gamakakriya. Knowledgeable and high-class artistes should not use â€œpa-dha-pa-saâ€

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:16

Another raga that can melt stones (though not the one used by Lord Hanuman !)

Google search with keywords "raga melt stone" brings the following result,

JSTOR: Rasa, Raga-Mala and Performance Times in North Indian Ragas
This in- vestigation was continued by N. A. Jairazbhoy and A. W. Stone with ...
Raga Kedar, for instance, is believed to cure diseases and to melt stones. ...
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0014-1836(196509)9%3A3%3C272%3ARRAPTI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S
- Similar pages

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:32

ramakriya wrote:Are you sure Bhairavi Venkatasubbayya was a real person?

Thanks for raising the point. I had my doubts too as I know a character by the same name was the protagonist of the famous novel hamsagIte that was made into an equally famous movie. There seems to be some possibility of this character being real.

Prof. V.Sampatkumaracharya says-

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/fr/2 ... 910300.htm

See here
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/fr/2 ... 740300.htm

Anyway, no one gave this answer

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:36

Raga Kedar, for instance, is believed to cure diseases and to melt stones. ...

Probably Jairazbhoy saw A.W Stone melting after listening to raag Kedar

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:37

Coolkarni. Just what I thought!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:39

Are we talking about kidney stones and gall stones here?

I wonder what effect Guntakriya/Kedar will have on Mick Jagger?

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:47

mohan,

Probably none. Because rolling stones gather no "ma-ss". both gundakriya and kedar use madhyama.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:52

lol - good one!

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:57

This is what one gets from an all out google search

Did not have any books to refer to!

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:59

From http://www.carnatica.net/newsletter/poorvakalyani.htm

I too referred to the same source and answered on the lines given therein

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Jan 2007, 07:59

DRS,
Very nice questions for the quiz. Learnt quite a bit here.
However regarding your answer to question 15 none-

I did write that there is no difference between the scale however composers have used PDS prayoga for gamakakriya and PDPS for purvikalyani. will that make my answer right?
BTW it is from your own notes on the raga gamakakriya.

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 24 Jan 2007, 08:20

DRS,

So what are the scores like?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Jan 2007, 10:53

drshrikaanth wrote:
ramakriya wrote:Are you sure Bhairavi Venkatasubbayya was a real person?
Thanks for raising the point. I had my doubts too as I know a character by the same name was the protagonist of the famous novel hamsagIte that was made into an equally famous movie. There seems to be some possibility of this character being real.

Anyway, no one gave this answer

As for as I know, Bhairavi Venkatasubbayya was part of tarAsu's imagination.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Jan 2007, 11:02

Suji Ram wrote:Sent mine..
Open book?....one with best googling skills wins .

Not really! Unless you approximately know the answer - googling is of no help!

Did any one get the gouLa rAgamAlika question correct? My 100% guesswork failed 100%

Look for Shahaji in the following page.

http://www.rit.edu/~pnveme/raga/glossary.html

-Ramakriya

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 24 Jan 2007, 12:40

Given that i was quoted in this thread, i had immediately gone back to some text book references i had access to.

gamakakriyA (pg 413 of ref 2)

ssp - s r g m p d s - s n d p m g r s. rAgam is also called pUrvyAkalyANi
sancArams told: gA gA, r r g g, r g p m g, r g d m g, r g n d m g, r g s/r d s p d s r g, r g m m g, r g r, g/mr g (ref 1, volume 5)

sangraha chudamani, maha bharatha choodamani, raga lakshnams - s r m p d n s - s n d p m g m r s.

sangeetha saastra sudha - s r g m p d n s - s n d m g s.

pUrvakalyANI - Sangraha Chudamani - s r g m p d n d s - s n d p m g r s (page 1095 of ref 2)

pUrikalyANi - Maha bharatha choodamani - s r g m p d n d p s or s r m p d n p d p s - s n d p m g r s. (page 1095 of ref 2)

reference:
SSP - tamil translation by SR and BRI.
Raga Lakshnasangaraha - Dr. Hema Ramanathan.

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 24 Jan 2007, 12:41

<<Did any one get the gouLa rAgamAlika question correct? My 100% guesswork failed 100%>>

I did! I did!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 15:47

[quote="mohan"]I agree with Thanjavur.

[quote="Dr VV Srivatsa"]Pa-dha-pa-sa was a safety rote prescribed and propagated by an unidentified noble musicologist and musician. God bless him! This proves that Poorva Kalyani is not equal to Gamakakriya. Knowledgeable and high-class artistes should not use â€œpa-dha-pa-saâ€

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 15:52

ramakriya wrote:Did any one get the gouLa rAgamAlika question correct? My 100% guesswork failed 100%

Several

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 15:55

Suji Ram wrote:However regarding your answer to question 15 none-

I did write that there is no difference between the scale however composers have used PDS prayoga for gamakakriya and PDPS for purvikalyani. will that make my answer right?
BTW it is from your own notes on the raga gamakakriya.

My notes are here (Post 437).

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=3259#p3259

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 15:57

Regarding the anecdote on guNDakriya. see my post (131) here in the oDeyar thread

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=2487#p2487

Suji- did this slip your memory?

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 24 Jan 2007, 16:03

Goes to show it's a good idea to read DRS's postings elsewhere on this forum.

The answer to the Yadukulakambodhi origin question (quiz 1) is here:
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=98 (posting #10)

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 24 Jan 2007, 17:31

DRS - can you elaborate on a couple of answers:

10) Who elaborated the 90 mELa system?
Answer: paNDarIka viThala

What are these melas? Do they allow both shuddha- and prati-madhyama?

18) During the haridAsa period, among the many rAgas known, a set number of rAgas occupied the pride of place.How many were they?
Answer: 32(battIsa rAgagaLu)

Which are these ragas?

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 24 Jan 2007, 20:27

Dr. Srikaanth, Following is a Q & A from Vidushi R Vedavalli's "Guru's Word" column at kutcheriBUZZ,

http://www.kutcheribuzz.com/ask/music/vidhushi1.asp

Which ragas are to be sung in Madhyama Sruthi and why? -Thejasvi

Nadanamakriya, Shenjuruti, Navroj and Kurunji are some of the ragas sung in madhyama sruti.
The range of these ragas is limited and they are mainly panchamantya, dhaivatantya or Nishadantya,
i.e the sancharas do not go beyond these swaras. If sung in the regular panchama sruti, the pitch
will sound very low and will have less of an impact. Of late, other ragas like Manirangu, Sindhu bhairavi
and Yaman Kalyan are also being sung in madhyama sruti.

What does the last sentence mean?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Jan 2007, 20:28

ramakriya wrote:Look for Shahaji in the following page.
http://www.rit.edu/~pnveme/raga/glossary.html

The page says: Sapta sagara suladi prabandha A raga tala malika by Shahaji Maharaja in Gaula ending Ragas : Narayanagaula (Dhruva); Kannadagaula (Matya); Malavagaula (Rupaka); Ritigaula (Jhampa); Purvagaula (Triputa); Chayyagaula (Ata); Kedaragaula (Eka)

So gaula itself isnt used? That is surprising - isnt it? It sort of throws a wrinkle to the question (?) if one were to go very strictly as it used a sub-set as opposed to same set - but still this is one of the best questions! I didnt know that there was such a ragamalika, and it is very interesting information from a historical perspective.

I couldnt participate in this round, but my (wild) guess would have been ramaswamy dikshitar

.

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 20:44

thanjavur wrote:Dr. Srikaanth, Following is a Q & A from Vidushi R Vedavalli's "Guru's Word" column at kutcheriBUZZ,

http://www.kutcheribuzz.com/ask/music/vidhushi1.asp

. Of late, other ragas like Manirangu, Sindhu bhairavi
and Yaman Kalyan are also being sung in madhyama sruti.
What does the last sentence mean?

Do you mind reading the Quiz question again? The last sentence here has no bearing whatsoever on my question and the answer.

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 24 Jan 2007, 20:46

From an article by Vidya Jayaraman,

http://sky.prohosting.com/~guruguha/tyagesa.htm

Interestingly, we can observe that King ShahAji's compositions have had a tremendous influence on the compositions
of both RamaswAmi DIkshitar and MuttuswAmi DIkshitar.For instance, the niilotpalaambaa vibhakti kritis of DIkshitar
are all in gaulanta ragas or ragas ending with gauLa, i.e., nArAyaNagauLa, rItigauLa, kannadagauLa, kedaragauLa, gaula,
MALavagauLa, PUrvagauLa and ChAyAgauLa. ShahAji had used all these except Gaula in his SapthasAgara Sooladi Prabhanda lIla.
Again RamaswAmi DIkshitar's gangAtarangiNi daru , mAra tAta tAra has its inspirations in some of the citra prabhandas of
Shahaji which are also in the same palindromic genre.Thus the familial association and influence of the works of the mahratta
kings and the court.

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 24 Jan 2007, 20:50

drshrikaanth wrote:
thanjavur wrote:Dr. Srikaanth, Following is a Q & A from Vidushi R Vedavalli's "Guru's Word" column at kutcheriBUZZ,

http://www.kutcheribuzz.com/ask/music/vidhushi1.asp

. Of late, other ragas like Manirangu, Sindhu bhairavi
and Yaman Kalyan are also being sung in madhyama sruti.
What does the last sentence mean?
Do you mind reading the Quiz question again? The last sentence here has no bearing whatsoever on my question and the answer.

Dr. Srikaanth, This is not about the Quiz Q & A. Just wanted to know
if there are any reasons behind this change.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 24 Jan 2007, 21:36

I have a book of Shahaji maharaja's compositions but the rAga-tALamAlikA is not in it.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 21:41

Lakshman
Is that the yellow-orange covered(With a ahnd-drawing of mustachioed Shahaji on top) hard-bound book published by the saraswati mahal Library, Tanjavur? Has songs both in telugu and tamizh script IIRC. I dont think that book has all his compositions- just a selection.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 21:45

thanjavur wrote:Dr. Srikaanth, This is not about the Quiz Q & A. Just wanted to know
if there are any reasons behind this change.

Ok. As the wording was much like what you wrote regarding gamakakriya-pUrvikalyANi, I thought you were coming from the same angle.

Coming to your question, reasons could be beacuse of choice by a popular musician who found it easier to sing a particular song in madhyama Sruti (Due to the range of the swaras in the particular composition) and others latched onto it. sindhubhairavi and yamakalyANi. often sung in the post tani session for lighter pieces, the effect created is different and nice and so the choice. These are possible reasons. You wont see anyone singing jambUpatE in yamunAkalyANi in the madhyama Sruti

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 24 Jan 2007, 21:55

[quote="V.V.Srivatsa"]Subbarama Dikshitar, has cited and provided in his magnum-opus, an Ata tala Varnam in Poorvakalyani, Ninnu Koriyunnanu Chakkani, by Sonti Venkatasubbayya. This is proof that this raga was popular in the pre-Trinity period. Interestingly, this Varnam does not have the sanchara â€œpa-dha-pa-saâ€

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 24 Jan 2007, 22:26

DRS: Yes it is the same book that I have. Thanks.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Jan 2007, 22:47

Gundakriya Ah...( I did not cut and paste this information in my notes).
I remembered a raga being mentioned somewhere but couldn;t remember where.

I however found the story of Hanuman melting the stone...vIna getting stuck, but alas they did not mention the raga there.

I got Shahaji maharaja right. Ragamalika in gaula ragas takes you to a glossary where it is mentioned as suladi.

Ancient names for mOhana is rEgupti and I thought it must be the one on copper plates as annamacharya must have used in his times.

Did not know saindhavi was madhyma Sruti rAga. Like others I too thought a different one. nAdanAmakriya was mentioned by DRS in odeyar thread however.

Bhairavi Lakshminarayannappa is mentioned in Neelamma kadambi thread here.
Narayana Gaula Vina Kuppaiyer mentioned by DRS (found in my notes).

Got 90 mela, prabhanda raga, haridasa raga set, gundakriya and saindavi wrong.
Rest are correct I guess...

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 24 Jan 2007, 22:52

Suji Ram wrote:Ancient names for mOhana is rEvagupti and I thought it must be the one on copper plates as annamacharya must have used in his times.

is it rEvagupti or rEgupti???

and about saindavi, iirc, Kalpakam mami plays this ragam in pancama sruthi. not sure, will try to check.

and about other ragams which have crept into madhyama sruthi, quite surprisingly, SSP says "indha rAgam madhyama rAgam endru mayanga kUDAdu" for kuranji

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Jan 2007, 22:54

rbharath wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:Ancient names for mOhana is rEvagupti and I thought it must be the one on copper plates as annamacharya must have used in his times.
is it rEvagupti or rEgupti???

I edited my post
Thanks

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 24 Jan 2007, 22:56

From Google
[quote]Raganubhava - Mohanam - PPN
The ancient name of mOhanam is â€œrEguptiâ€

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Jan 2007, 23:04

jayaram wrote:DRS - can you elaborate on a couple of answers:
10) Who elaborated the 90 mELa system?
Answer: paNDarIka viThala
What are these melas? Do they allow both shuddha- and prati-madhyama?

pandarIka viTThala defines another variation of gAndhAra called Urdhwa gAndhAra, which takes the position of the shuddha madhyama, thus addding 18 more mELas to the total. sAranga was considered one of the mELas using this Urdhwa gAndhAra

18) During the haridAsa period, among the many rAgas known, a set number of rAgas occupied the pride of place.How many were they?
Answer: 32(battIsa rAgagaLu)
Which are these ragas?

Actually the concept of 32 important rAgas goes to a period few centuries earlier than haridAsas.

Basavanna (~1150 AD) has this in one of the vacanas

enna kAyava daMDigeya mADayya
enna shirava sOreya mADayya
enna naragaLa tantiya mADayya
battIsa rAgava hADayya ....
....
kUDala sangama dEva

(summary: Make my body the danDi, (of the vINA), make my head the 'kODa' (the gourd), make my nerves the strings, sing 32 rAgas ... etc)

where he equates bodies of human body to the parts of a veene. For an elegent tranlation of this vacana, you can refer to Speaking Of Siva, by Sri A K Ramanujam.

purandara dAsa has at least 3 dEvara nAmas where he gives the names of various rAgas used in his time. Here is an analysis I had done a few years ago:

AFAIK, these are the 3 dEvaranAmas where the rAga names occur in the sAhitya

1. tutturu tUrendu battisa rAgagaLannu

p : tutturu tUrendu battIsa rAgagaLannu citta vallabha tanna koLalanUdidanu
c : gouLa nATi AhEri gurjari mALavi sAranga rAga kELi ramaNiyarati dUradinda
phalamanjari gauLi dEshAkSi rAgangaLanu naLina nAbhanu tanna koLalalUdidanu

2. naLinajAMDa taleya tUgi

pa: naLinajAMDa taleya tUgi mOhisutiralu
koLalanUdi bhrAjisuva celuva krSNarAyana nODi
c: mAravi dEshi gurjari bhairavi gauLi nATi sAvEri AhEri pUrvi
kAmbhOji pADi dEshAkSi shankarAbharaNa mALava
varALi kalyANi tODi mukhAriyaraLi vasanta bauLi dhanyAsi
saurASTra guMDakriya rAmakriya mEgha kuranjiyu pADalu nODi

3. anganeyarellu neredu

pa: anganeyarelu neredu cappALikkuda divya
mangaLa nAmava pADi rangana kuNisuvaru
c: pADi malhAri bhairavi sAranga dEsi guMDakriya gurjari kalyANi rAgadi taMDa
taMadali neredu rangana uDiya ghaNTe ghaN ghaN ghaN ghNirendu hiDidu kuNisuvaru

If we list all the rAgas from these three compositions, we get

From tutturu tUreMdu
1. gouLa
2. nATi
3. AhEri
4. gurjari
5. mALavi
6. sAranga
7. phalamanjari
8. gouLi
9. dEshakshi

From naLinajAMda

10. mAravi (??) - Same as mALavi ??
11. dEshi
gurjari - listed already
12. bhairavi
gouLi - listed already
nATi - listed already
13. sAvEri
AhEri - listed already
14. pUrvi
15. kAmbhOji
16. pADi
dEshAkshi - listed already
17. shankarAbharaNa
18. mALava - (Looks like mALava and mALavi/mAravi are different)
19. varALi
20. kalyANi
21. tODi
22. mukhAri
23. vasanta
24. bouLi - Looks like gouLi can't be bouLi since both are listed in same song!
So gouLa and gouLi should be two different rAgas
25. dhanyAsi
26. sourAShTra
27. guMDakriya
28. rAmakriya
29. mEgha
30. kuranji - Could it be mEghakuranji ?

From anganeyarellaru

pADi - listed already
31. malahari
bhairavi - already listed
sAranga - already listed
dEshi - already listed
guMDakriya - already listed
gurjari - already listed
kalyANi - listed already

From these three dEvaranAmas, we get 31 unique rAga names - very close to the battIs (32)
rAgas PurandaradAsa mentions in tutturu tUrendu.

Hope this helps.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Jan 2007, 23:06

rbharath wrote:is it rEvagupti or rEgupti???

Both are mentioned in different sources, and are interchangable.

Which source shows it as ragupati?

-Ramakriya

ranjani · Post by **ranjani** » 24 Jan 2007, 23:26

When will teh scores be announced? I am not in a hurry tp know my marks but want to know if anyone got 20 points.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 23:30

ranjani wrote:When will teh scores be announced? I am not in a hurry tp know my marks but want to know if anyone got 20 points.

no one scored 20 this time. Will put up scores shortly.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 23:46

ramakriya wrote:
18) During the haridAsa period, among the many rAgas known, a set number of rAgas occupied the pride of place.How many were they?
Answer: 32(battIsa rAgagaLu)
Actually the concept of 32 important rAgas goes to a period few centuries earlier than haridAsas.

Certainly the "battIsa rAgagaLu" concept was not restricted to the haridAsa period or movement. I have not said this either in the question. But haridAsas certainly endorsed it, used it and spread it. Anyway, if I put everything in the question, that would simply be an explanation and give away the answer wouldn't it?

The set of battIsa rAgas was not always constant. The number certainly was. This concept of grouping rakti/popular rAgas was present for a very long time in the music scene of the kannaDa land. It was very much an indigenous concept having no such parallel in the rest of the country. SivatattvaratnAkara, the encyclopaedic work of the keLadi kng basavarAja mentions the concept and lists the rAgas as well. I think, nijaguNa SivayOgi also mentions the concept.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 24 Jan 2007, 23:51

I had read somewhere that the number is 35. Wish I could lay my hands on the reference...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Jan 2007, 23:54

jayaram wrote:I had read somewhere that the number is 35. Wish I could lay my hands on the reference...

Maybe you are confusing about the suLAdi tALas (7*5)