Gamaka

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 15 Feb 2018, 11:55

Gamaka - Voice Trainer App for PC and Mobiles

Gamaka detects and draws the swaras (notes) and swarasthanas (tones) in Carnatic music as the singing/playing happens on a real-time basis.

Demo Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d270d2F ... e=youtu.be

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 15 Feb 2018, 12:07

Nano Sir,
I have a running debate with a vainika who says most Carnatic ensembles have horrible Sruti alignment, especially that the violin and mridangam act like bad coalition partners in a weak government.
I can link/upload some video/audio clips. Will it be possible to do an analysis and establish the level of deviation in Sruti between mridangam, violin and vocal sounds?
I am told by a domain expert that different people hear this differently and also the simultaneous presence of sounds of different timbres affects the perception of Sruti alignment. I imagine therefore that this is a multidimensional problem not of easy solution.
I wish there was some kind of objective monitor trainer analysis and display software app.

Thanks,

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 15 Feb 2018, 13:58

Sachi Sir

Sounds interesting. You are probably referring to polyphonic sound input, analysis and display - an extended version of real-time trainer apps. Pl contact sonicsynergies@gmail.com (they developed this app) for further discussions.

ramamatya · Post by **ramamatya** » 16 Feb 2018, 08:51

Has the app been tested?

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 16 Feb 2018, 12:05

Ramamatya Sir

Gamaka has been tested at various levels including alpha and beta-testing in Europe, US and India. The app works on IE, Chrome, Firefox in PCs and all mobile devices. It has been tested for performance, accuracy and functionality. It is online and free. No necessity to download or install the app - making it fully functional in all kinds of mobile devices, PC and mac.

Hope this helps.

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 17 Feb 2018, 05:25

@nanosadagopan
I installed this from play store on the Samsung Galaxy S7, but it is unresponsive - except for asking for permission to record audio. Any tips? Thanks.

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 17 Feb 2018, 06:06

I could not find any website or app for this.

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 17 Feb 2018, 07:42

@Sachi_R
This is the webpage: https://sonicsynergies.github.io/Gamaka/
But the app seems to have disappeared from play store. Maybe debugging?

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 17 Feb 2018, 08:43

Thanks!

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 17 Feb 2018, 08:52

Sachi Sir

The link is https://sonicsynergies.github.io/Gamaka , mentioned in the demo video. Gamaka is a Web App, which means it opens in a web browser, much like a web site. So, PCs, mac, and mobiles can access it online. There is no necessity to download or install. Mobiles are online anyway.

PVS Sir
The Gamaka Android app at the google play store (for mobile devices only) has been temporarily taken down for further testing. It will be launched again soon.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2018, 23:28

nanosadagopan, thanks. I tried it and it works and usable though there are some issues. But it is quite useful even in this state. I was actually looking for where to set the Kattai so it will determine the Sa properly but it seems to do that automatically. Nice. That is indeed very good and makes it easy to use.

While it draws the graph for my voice, with my 5 kattai flute, it only draws it for the lower Pa and Da but for not anything higher. I tried a lower sruthi flute and it is fine.

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 21 Feb 2018, 00:13

I tried it in desktop mode on my Android Chrome.
After I press start, sing/play something into the phone, and press End, it gives an oscillograph.

I would think a bit of processing resulting in single line instead of dots showing the move of the pitch as a graph will make it more aesthetic. It can also sweep across every 10 seconds and stack up plots like an ECG.

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 21 Feb 2018, 11:14

Sachi_R wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 00:13
I would think a bit of processing resulting in single line instead of dots showing the move of the pitch as a graph will make it more aesthetic. It can also sweep across every 10 seconds and stack up plots like an ECG.

Sure, that will be the next one - to make it more aesthetic. Once the usability/functional aspects of the app is established, come the aesthetic ones next.

Sachi_R wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 00:13
I tried it in desktop mode on my Android Chrome.
After I press start, sing/play something into the phone, and press End, it gives an oscillograph.

This dots represent pitch, which is different from an oscillograph. There are a dime a dozen oscillographs. But there are no pitch representations, rather very less in numbers. There are spectrograms too but they are not useful for singers/students who want to train their singing. Again, it does not draw like an ECG because it stops when the user stops, as mentioned earlier.

This is a basic app, as of now. The dots are very small and very close resembling movement of pitch. The good thing, of course is that the movement stops if users stop singing. That allows users to stop and think about what they're looking at before going back at it again. If the visualizing went on and on and on without any control for the user, the user would have had to race along with the visualization.

Thanks for your response, Sachi Sir. The developers may probably do the second version keeping aesthetics in mind.

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 21 Feb 2018, 11:24

vasanthakokilam wrote: ↑20 Feb 2018, 23:28 nanosadagopan, thanks. I tried it and it works and usable though there are some issues. But it is quite useful even in this state. I was actually looking for where to set the Kattai so it will determine the Sa properly but it seems to do that automatically. Nice. That is indeed very good and makes it easy to use.

While it draws the graph for my voice, with my 5 kattai flute, it only draws it for the lower Pa and Da but for not anything higher. I tried a lower sruthi flute and it is fine.

Thanks Vasanthakokilam Sir, and happy to note that it is quite useful as it is. I just want singers/students to have a utility tool easily accessible without having to pay.

Like I mentioned, it is a basic app, where the Sa is set to "G", ie, 5-kattai for female shruthi. You need to be really close to the mic for the app to respond. Also, if you sing/play softly, it will not pick up the sounds. This is to avoid extraneous noise. So, it stops marking if you stop singing/playing, and that too is useful.

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 21 Feb 2018, 13:07

Nano sir,
Putting on my garage designer hat (much worn out by constant use over decades

), some ideas:

1. Make user use his phone with headset (Mike and earpieces)
2. The App should work like a biofeedback device.
3. Option to play standard exercises stored on app with singer singing back to it.
4. Biofeedback perfects the singer's ability
5. The display should have a kind of lissajau pattern to show the singer's performance, with colour zones etc
6. In a later version, if three singers sing together and one is out of tune it should be able to show it....

I imagine this kind of thing would be already around for use with pianos, violins etc.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Feb 2018, 14:32

One mild suggestion/thought... in a graphical sense, it may be more intuitive to have t = 0 fixed at the left and have the current time t scrolling towards the right. The net result achieved is the same and the final shape of the graph, if it is within one frame, will be the same. However we will have an intuitive graphical record. For longer real-time displays, an invisible "erase bar" can lead the scroll to clear the older samples ahead, as is done in contemporary digital EKG monitors. I understand that at the outset you will lose the very important ability to read the notes off the graduated scale as they emerge in real-time, which I suppose is the primary purpose if this app! But that too can be solved by having the vertical graduated line (i.e., the one you have fixed at the right) lead the waveform. In order that the display is not too "busy", the moving graduated line can be of a milder color. Another, less effective, way would be to have Y grid. Again, makes it too busy but I like grids in my graphs

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 21 Feb 2018, 20:02

I've been wondering how this is different in spirit from the GuruSangeet app that has already been presented in the technical discussions forum. That one seems to be a little more advanced (developmentally), elegant, and easier to use (I haven't tried it, I don't know how to try either app) and yet has not been discussed as much..

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30657

Shouldnt this thread be moved to the Innovations and Technical / Advanced Topics Forum?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Feb 2018, 20:54

Shouldn't this thread be moved to the Innovations and Technical / Advanced Topics Forum?

Yep. Moved. Thx

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Feb 2018, 01:13

That one seems to be a little more advanced (developmentally), elegant, and easier to use (I haven't tried it, I don't know how to try either app) and yet has not been discussed as much..

After seeing your message, I downloaded the app but found out it is for music teachers and schools. Oh well!

ramamatya · Post by **ramamatya** » 23 Feb 2018, 08:14

One suggestion to this app: Can you make lines between the right and left markings of tones? That is, first, make the marking on the left side too as they are on the right and draw a line between them. So it is easier to check the pitches while singing.

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑21 Feb 2018, 20:02 That one seems to be a little more advanced (developmentally), elegant, and easier to use (I haven't tried it, I don't know how to try either app) and yet has not been discussed as much..
Shouldnt this thread be moved to the Innovations and Technical / Advanced Topics Forum?

Why compare? Since you don't know how to try any app, why talk about it? Your post is not in good taste.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 23 Feb 2018, 20:03

ramamatya wrote: ↑23 Feb 2018, 08:14

Why compare? Since you don't know how to try any app, why talk about it? Your post is not in good taste.

I thought of this myself and wondered if I was right to make the comparison. I am sorry that I have offended you by making that unnecessary comparison. I watched both videos. The other app, presented in the "right" forum received little attention. This one was receiving some attention. My point was that a well developed app like the other one should have received more attention. I could have put it better, I agree.

I misspoke when I said I don't know how to try either app. I did not notice the links and wondered how the others tried it. Yes, it was careless of me, mea culpa!!

It is wonderful that there are so many people trying to innovate! My apologies.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 23 Feb 2018, 21:16

vasanthakokilam wrote: ↑23 Feb 2018, 01:13
After seeing your message, I downloaded the app but found out it is for music teachers and schools. Oh well!

I downloaded it too, and yes, students have to use a lesson plan posted by a teacher!

Thanks for trying it, VK!

ramamatya · Post by **ramamatya** » 24 Feb 2018, 11:38

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑23 Feb 2018, 20:03 The other app, presented in the "right" forum received little attention. This one was receiving some attention.

Shows some real jealousy there. The 'other' app can also post in the general forum, is anybody stopping them? There is still one Sadhakam app in general discussions forum. I requested the mods to shift it to the appropriate forum, and they DID NOT bother !

Despite all your outwardly apologies, you must now feel relieved playing the spoilsport, isn't it?

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 24 Feb 2018, 11:43

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑23 Feb 2018, 21:16 Thanks for trying it, VK!

Madam, pl stop using this thread to promote your app.

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 24 Feb 2018, 11:47

Thank you, uday_shankar sir for your suggestion. It is not mild but something that hit me the first time I used it myself. When I asked the developers, they said they just wanted it to be different. But, I think they will change it to common practices in the next few versions.

Thanks to Sirs: Sachi, Uday_shankarr, ramamatya, VK, and psv for your suggestions. I'll pass them on to the developers. Bye.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 24 Feb 2018, 13:40

Ranganayaki wrote: ↑23 Feb 2018, 21:16
vasanthakokilam wrote: ↑23 Feb 2018, 01:13
After seeing your message, I downloaded the app but found out it is for music teachers and schools. Oh well!
I downloaded it too, and yes, students have to use a lesson plan posted by a teacher!

Thanks for trying it, VK!

VK, I meant that I saw THIS message above of yours and then downloaded and tried it myself, and understood why we all can't use it!!

This thread is really starting to get funny, thanks to an amazing nanodetective ! My cover is blown

!!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Feb 2018, 23:12

Ramamatya,nanosadagopan, that is totally uncalled for aggression against our fellow reputed member.

Ramamatya, we have missed your request. Remind me please.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Feb 2018, 23:29

Nanosadagopan, the developers can interact with us here as well. Please let them know about our interest in their app here.

The fact it works in the browser is the big advantage of this effort since it reduces the friction in using it. A few years back, we played around with an app that did similar things. It showed what can be done in real time. It was also ‘sonic’ something but it didn’t work in the browser and hence not easily accessible to everyone.

It will be awesome if they can add the Sruthi specification and fix the bugs I pointed out ( it does not draw the graph for my G flute ),

Thx

ramamatya · Post by **ramamatya** » 25 Feb 2018, 08:10

vasanthakokilam wrote: ↑24 Feb 2018, 23:12 Ramamatya,nanosadagopan, that is totally uncalled for aggression against our fellow reputed member.

Ramamatya, we have missed your request. Remind me please.

It is sad to know that you support 'reputed' members even when they are mean and nasty.

This is the thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29462

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Feb 2018, 09:16

ramamatya wrote: ↑25 Feb 2018, 08:10It is sad to know that you support 'reputed' members even when they are mean and nasty.

Rest assured that to be mean and nasty, people need to take lessons from true masters, not Ranganayaki....

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 31 Oct 2020, 13:57

Gamaka is back.

Youtube demo: https://youtu.be/W8rsI7tJ9Gs

Click https://eusonictechnologies.github.io/Gamaka to train your voice or instrument. Gamaka works on all mobile devices and PC browsers (Works best in Microsoft Edge). Gamaka is completely free (no trial periods or in-app purchasing). For android app, check out https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... ies.gamaka

PS: In case you are wondering, the site was hacked and code partially destroyed. But the team spirit could not be broken. Thank you hackers. We come back new and improved.

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 03 Nov 2020, 11:19

For Desktop apps, pl contact Eusonic Technologies: eusonictechnologies@gmail.com

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 14 Dec 2020, 13:24

The lower pa to upper Sa is too narrowly placed and it is impossible to decipher the notes. It can be equidistance like many other apps. the advantage is it does not pick up the noise.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 27 Dec 2020, 14:42

With reference to the post No.31 very sadly the respective lady sang the different notes without consistency of either Gamaka or Kampita.

In the respective Shloka of around 12 century, ‘swarasya kampo gamakaha shrottu chitta sukhaavhaha’ where 15 varieties are furnished, even though these two terms, kampita and gamaka are furnished separately, many are used to tell that both are same which is not correct and illogical too.

Most unfortunately, none of our Sangitakalanidhis or Padmashrees, who are more of performing perspective only but very less of teaching perspective, have never tried to give a logical approach to these oscillations in making things easier for our aspirants. Even if I have tried and furnished long ago in my book ‘msakella’s easy methods in learning Karnataka music-2007’ along with the respective audio-files in which Kaishiki-nishada alone carries 27 facets, none of them comes out open either to support or condemn it even to help our poor aspirants. This is the very sad state of affairs in respect of our poor aspirants in our country. amsharma

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 19 Jan 2021, 09:46

Comments on the singer are unwarranted and irrelevant. It is the demo of the software and the lady sang what we told her to.

You can sing your gamakas/kampita and see if the software displays it right. The software is merely a tool that displays whatever you sing/play. If you are still confused, drop an email to eusonictechnologies@gmail.com for clarification.

PS: The Github repository is no longer available. As mentioned in the youtube description, only desktop apps and android apps are available. Android at https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... ies.gamaka and contact above email for desktop apps (they are all free).

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 12 Feb 2021, 18:34

Only just now I have accidentally seen this post bringing out my irrelevancy.

Among the three links furnished in this post the YouTube link only is active bringing out one audio of a singer singing the notes of Shankarabharana and I am not getting any audio from any of the other two links.

At this juncture except the singer's demo I do not have any other details and the singer's demo is not sung with any clarity bringing out the difference of pure or Kampita or Gamaka of the respective notes. When I tried to bring out this irrelevancy, funnily, I was accused 'irrelevant'. This is the real problem with the people who cannot differentiate or categorise or apply the Kampita & Gamaka to the present day music properly even though these two names are furnished in the relevant Shloka 'svarasya kampo gamakaha' distinctively. amsharma

nanosadagopan · Post by **nanosadagopan** » 15 Feb 2021, 08:06

msakella wrote: ↑12 Feb 2021, 18:34 At this juncture except the singer's demo I do not have any other details and the singer's demo is not sung with any clarity bringing out the difference of pure or Kampita or Gamaka of the respective notes. When I tried to bring out this irrelevancy, funnily, I was accused 'irrelevant'. amsharma

You don't seem to get your basics right. You can comment on the product not on the model who is helping in bringing out the product.

To get all your other details, you can get the desktop product by emailing eusonictechnologies@gmail.com. For android, check out Gamaka in Google play. It is all free. You can test and comment to your heart's content !

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 16 Feb 2021, 07:44

This is not just to find fault with you but to save myself from committing such faults. amsharma

ramamatya · Post by **ramamatya** » 16 Feb 2021, 08:19

Incidentally, the singer sang really well ! All you need to do is listen to the Sankarabharanam oscillations between SGRGRGR (detailed descriptive notation) for Ri and PSDSDSD (detailed descriptive notation) for Da. That was perfect Gamaka on Ri and Da. ma and Ni were likewise within the grammar oscillations of Sankarabharanam. Sa, Ga and Pa were held plain as how they should be.

The software shows the positions of the swaras as they are sung. Proof of the pudding. Now, whether the singer sings Carnatic gamakas or hindustani gamakas or even Western scales, it is immaterial. All that matters is whether the software captures the swarasthanas in a continuous mode as it is sung.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 16 Feb 2021, 10:32

As a professional Violin-accompanist having accompanied several Stalwarts and as the author of five books of their own kind and all supplied along with CDs I cannot agree with your finding. The singer sang S – P – S only correctly but not others. If you are particular to know the details kindly go through the full details of Kampitas and Gamakas furnished in my book ‘msakella’s Easy Methods in Learning Karnataka Music – 2007’ which you can get from ‘akella mallikarjuna sharma’ – Amazon. amsharma

ramamatya · Post by **ramamatya** » 16 Feb 2021, 10:40

You may have played violin and accompanied stalwarts but please do not badmouth a singer who belongs to a 10th generation Parampara ! It's highly unprofessional to negatively criticize others in order to promote oneself.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 16 Feb 2021, 12:21

Of course, yes, I am very well aware that our people value Parampara only but not strict logic at all.
amsharma

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 12 Oct 2021, 06:30

Most unfortunately, while demonstrating them, either our stalwarts or experts are unable to locate our Sampradaya-gamaka among our Great Panchadasha-gamakas. Why???

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 25 Oct 2021, 09:50

More than 95% of our musicians are very highly egoistic and selfish. That is why many talented people are not being recognised and their talent is going waste.

Subbarama Dikshitar’s symbolized notation has become handy only to get Doctorates but not at all either to use it or propagate it or to develop it. We have plenty either to neglect the rare talent or to turn a blind-eye or to turn a deaf ear towards it.

Simultaneously people are also ready somehow to expose themselves in one way or the other to get the easy recognition in one way or the other.

When I have gone through the youtube video in the 31st post in which the notes of the Arohana and Avarohana of Shankarabharana are sung by a lady. Among them only Shadja and Panchama are sung without any oscillations and all other notes with one kind of oscillation or the other. It looks as if the singer has no proper knowledge of the Lakshana of 12 Swaragatasthanas and doesn’t have a well-disciplined way of rendering either the Kampitas or the Gamakas (refer the chapter ‘Kampitas and Gamakas’ of my book ‘msakella’s Easy Methods in Learning Karnataka Music-2007’ along with the respective audio-files– kindle version available from Amazon). msakella

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 12 Mar 2022, 07:17

Even after the lapse of 4 months our learned musicians are unable to find the illogicality of the singer sang the notes with illogical oscillations in the Youtube and respond either positively or even negatively. This is the greatness of our country. Excellent! msakella

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 20 Mar 2022, 01:37

msakella wrote: ↑12 Mar 2022, 07:17 Even after the lapse of 4 months our learned musicians are unable to find the illogicality of the singer sang the notes with illogical oscillations in the Youtube and respond either positively or even negatively. This is the greatness of our country. Excellent! msakella

Sarma garu, it is true that the gamakas are possibly sung incorrectly here (at least relative to SankarAbharaNam) but it is neither here nor there. As it often happens, the person who has the instrument does not have the right person to demonstrate it with. Until we have the sangamam of the two we make do with what we have. It does not mean we should stop striving to be better.

Humbly,
T

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 20 Mar 2022, 13:58

@thenpaanan
Your latest post in general discussion- ms and lata , is sheer poetry.
--
There is a problem in our forum. Very often, i delay posting appreciative comments, to avoid 'hiding' the original post. , till someone else hides it. by good or bad post. You would have seen my 'likes'.
I will post a detailed appreciation soon. suggest that some method must be found to solve this problem. It needs a technical solution.
@rajeshnat ..Kindly give some thought to this.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 20 Mar 2022, 15:16

RSR

I understand what you mean. The forumites will tend to read the latest posts. We have a forum of scientific discussion. Let me say how it works and it is worth emulation so that quality posts do not get burried among the noises. Imagine you post something substantial , and you do not wish that to get disregarded. In that case you should have the option of adding a blue color to your that particular post ( meaning it is worth reading in your opinion) . But that stays only for a week and you can can have only three of your posts in blue color at a given time ( just to avoid multiple jazzy posts in the rasikas forum which others may not find so interesting ). And someone other than you can also mark it as read worthy and then it changes to green for a week and reverts to the plain mode. But if many of the readers tag it or think highly of a particular post then it turns to another unique color to tell the passers-by that it is credit worthy. I hope you get it. But in a PHP designed forum like this I am not sure if that sophistication can be achieved as this is a non profit making forum.

And with all that you write which are interesting to read , I think I should shut up and let others read. Thanks for your time RSR

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 20 Mar 2022, 22:12

p-48
@ganesh_mourthy
Ganesh

And with all that you write which are interesting to read , I think I should shut up and let others read. Thanks for your time

Oh!No.! You are getting me wrong. I am just searching for a simple solution. Everybody's input is important. This may not be the right thread for this technical problem.
.
Just today, I happened to land at a thread in General section, where you had initiated a very fine thread about 'bruga' in CM singing and instrumental music and also had given some examples , especially the one from Seema by Lata.
I think, it is correct.
.
We can think of introducing extra icons, with some three or four colors-- to indicate that the fresh post is in stack for a day's duration, so as not to hide the visibility of previous post in the thread. This can be done not by any poster or reader but by the network software. itself automatically.
.
As a forum moderator, yourself, you can discuss with admin. ..Sorry for the diversion in this valuable thread.
--
There are literally about 20,000 threads of great value , in General Discussion' section ,very valuable for learners like me but getting buried deep and lost . Some kind of a hint is necessary even for google search.
......