Hello,
I'm an inspirant organist and piano player, and i have very much interest in learning indian music also.
I've been trying to figure out how vakra ragas are to be played, but while i have a general idea i still have some doubts.
In Ahiri :
arohana S R S G M P D N S)
avarohana S N D P M G R S
I understand that s r g is not allowed, i wanted to kindly ask wheter these other forms are allowed:
s r s r
s r s p
s r heading below for example s r d
r g approaching from below for example n r g
r g approaching from above for example g r g
Any help is apreciated, if anyone could give set of rules possibly valid for other vakra ragas, it would be very much apreciated,
Thanks,
Ananda mohan das
Questions about vakra ragas
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Re: Questions about vakra ragas
Firstly, I must tell you that Ahiri is an antediluvian raga beyond an arohanam/avarohanam. Alapanas in Ahiri are composition-based, for instance. But taking a completely scalar approach:
Should be allowed
May be used as a rare phrase, like SGM in Vasantha.
Should be allowed
Not allowed, as you cannot ascend directly from the rishabham to the gandharam.
Not allowed, as it the gandharam cannot directly follow the rishabham in the arohanam
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Re: Questions about vakra ragas
OK, to be very clear, it's actually very simple.
Basically every note can only have a certain set of notes after it in a raga.
What those notes are is decided by the Aro and Av.
For every note, the ones after the note in the Arohana can be played (as long as you are ascending), and the ones after the note in the Avarohana can be played (while descending). Any of the ones after it can be played, no restrictions.
For example, let's take gandharam in Ahiri. You'll notice that after "G" in the Arohana is "M P D N S". That means you are perfectly allowed to compose a song with G M, G P, G D, G N, and G S. Aditionally, you'll notice that after "G" in Avarohana is just two notes - "R S". You are permitted to also compose with G R. And of course, G S.
Usually this is the case, but in Ahiri things are a little special. What you really need to do is read the Aro and Av. as this:
Arohana: S G M P D N S + (you get to use the phrase S R )
Avarohana: S N D P M G R S
What this effectively means is that for "R" in Ahiri, you can follow it up with a "S"....and that's pretty much it. Nothing else. That's the speciality that makes it different from Melakartha. You must follow up a R with a S. No choice.
You can't do anything else with the R.
Don't ask me why they called it Ahi-"Ri". XD
P.S. I'm 99% sure of this, but I'm not a music expert, so if someone with more music experience feels this is not correct, please do correct me. Thanks.
Basically every note can only have a certain set of notes after it in a raga.
What those notes are is decided by the Aro and Av.
For every note, the ones after the note in the Arohana can be played (as long as you are ascending), and the ones after the note in the Avarohana can be played (while descending). Any of the ones after it can be played, no restrictions.
For example, let's take gandharam in Ahiri. You'll notice that after "G" in the Arohana is "M P D N S". That means you are perfectly allowed to compose a song with G M, G P, G D, G N, and G S. Aditionally, you'll notice that after "G" in Avarohana is just two notes - "R S". You are permitted to also compose with G R. And of course, G S.
Usually this is the case, but in Ahiri things are a little special. What you really need to do is read the Aro and Av. as this:
Arohana: S G M P D N S + (you get to use the phrase S R )
Avarohana: S N D P M G R S
What this effectively means is that for "R" in Ahiri, you can follow it up with a "S"....and that's pretty much it. Nothing else. That's the speciality that makes it different from Melakartha. You must follow up a R with a S. No choice.
You can't do anything else with the R.
Don't ask me why they called it Ahi-"Ri". XD
P.S. I'm 99% sure of this, but I'm not a music expert, so if someone with more music experience feels this is not correct, please do correct me. Thanks.
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- Joined: 22 Oct 2014, 19:12
Re: Questions about vakra ragas
Ahiri is a bit complex raga to start with. Without appropriate "gamaka" the raga will not be recognizable.
I would suggest "Nalinakanthi" - S G R M P N S ava : S N P M G R S as Janya of Sankarabharanam
It would sound OK on Piano also.
I would suggest "Nalinakanthi" - S G R M P N S ava : S N P M G R S as Janya of Sankarabharanam
It would sound OK on Piano also.
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- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Questions about vakra ragas
btw, this is something Arun taught us here a long while back which dispels a very common misunderstanding as to what Arohana Avarohana means.
Let me illustrate with Kambhoji
S R2 G3 M1 P D2 S | S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S
Quite a few people may think that P D2 N2 is not allowed. That is not correct, that is totally legal. But what is not legal for Kambhoji is to ascend from N2 since N2 is not in the arohanam. After P D2 N2 your only choice is descent, 'P D2 N2 D2' is the route you will have to take. After that, you can go down or up to S. 'P D2 N2 D2 P' or 'P D2 N2 D2 S' are fine.
So the nominal rule is ' you can only ascend FROM a note if it is in the arohanam, and you can only descend FROM a note if it is in the avarohanam'. Then you can apply raga specific exceptions.
The corollary is, you can ascend TO a note that is not in the Arohanam. You can descend TO a note that is not in the avarohanam
The original poster's question is about Vakra ragas. I am not sure how exactly to apply the above rule. May be the vakrams exist because the raga does not obey the above rule strictly and so they had to code the particular prayoga in the Aro/Ava itself.
Let me illustrate with Kambhoji
S R2 G3 M1 P D2 S | S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S
Quite a few people may think that P D2 N2 is not allowed. That is not correct, that is totally legal. But what is not legal for Kambhoji is to ascend from N2 since N2 is not in the arohanam. After P D2 N2 your only choice is descent, 'P D2 N2 D2' is the route you will have to take. After that, you can go down or up to S. 'P D2 N2 D2 P' or 'P D2 N2 D2 S' are fine.
So the nominal rule is ' you can only ascend FROM a note if it is in the arohanam, and you can only descend FROM a note if it is in the avarohanam'. Then you can apply raga specific exceptions.
The corollary is, you can ascend TO a note that is not in the Arohanam. You can descend TO a note that is not in the avarohanam
The original poster's question is about Vakra ragas. I am not sure how exactly to apply the above rule. May be the vakrams exist because the raga does not obey the above rule strictly and so they had to code the particular prayoga in the Aro/Ava itself.
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Re: Questions about vakra ragas
Then, in a ragam like Kadana Kutuhalam, can you do sing this prayogam?
S N D P M ) ) G P S
S N D P M ) ) G P S
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Re: Questions about vakra ragas
Thanks all for replys,
Yes, i already have a basic understanding of asymetrical ragas, but doubts are primarely about vakra or zig zag ragas. I've done some research and i've come to know that the vakra prayogas are treated as clusters, thus are not fragmented, yet there are some performers that actually do this. Either way, I have some difficulties understanding what is actually defined as a cluster, and how it connects with the other swaras of the raga. In particular, in raga vasantha:
s m g s
n g m g s
d m g m s
g m g s
s m g m s
s m g m s'
s m g s
s m g r
s g m r
d m d n
d m g m g s
s m g d
d m' g' m' d'
d g' m' g' m' d'
If some could clarify this to me i would be very very grateful,
Thanks,
Anand
Yes, i already have a basic understanding of asymetrical ragas, but doubts are primarely about vakra or zig zag ragas. I've done some research and i've come to know that the vakra prayogas are treated as clusters, thus are not fragmented, yet there are some performers that actually do this. Either way, I have some difficulties understanding what is actually defined as a cluster, and how it connects with the other swaras of the raga. In particular, in raga vasantha:
s m g s
n g m g s
d m g m s
g m g s
s m g m s
s m g m s'
s m g s
s m g r
s g m r
d m d n
d m g m g s
s m g d
d m' g' m' d'
d g' m' g' m' d'
If some could clarify this to me i would be very very grateful,
Thanks,
Anand
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- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
Re: Questions about vakra ragas
I think the cluster idea holds true somewhat, but I think it changes from raga to raga - and so not sure if it is a general rule. I think vakra raga
If you take SrIrAgam with p m r g r s, e.g. you can have s g r s, s r g r s etc. (comes in endaro). You also have m r p m, and p r m p - also in endarO, where you have descended from ma or pa, but went back up and no ga involved. The only rule perhaps is coming down if you want to come down from ma to sa, one must do ri ga (ma ri ga ri sa). That is in that context (ma => sa), the cluster holds good. But this is SrIrAga. Dont think it applies to others (you can check gauLa with duDuku to see how it does)
Arun
If you take SrIrAgam with p m r g r s, e.g. you can have s g r s, s r g r s etc. (comes in endaro). You also have m r p m, and p r m p - also in endarO, where you have descended from ma or pa, but went back up and no ga involved. The only rule perhaps is coming down if you want to come down from ma to sa, one must do ri ga (ma ri ga ri sa). That is in that context (ma => sa), the cluster holds good. But this is SrIrAga. Dont think it applies to others (you can check gauLa with duDuku to see how it does)
Arun