Aspirating consonants in Tamil compositions

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Sep 2016, 20:50

Listened to "pirava varam thaarum" yesterday as part of the Sivan vaal birthday festival. Some words like "Bhakthi" & "bandham" were pronounced as if they were sanskrit words. Felt a bit out of place. Thought it would be better if they were pronounced as the locals do.

What do the pronunciation Nazis here think?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 28 Sep 2016, 22:15

OK - I will bite

...in a tamizh composition, I think bakti and bandam are fine (as long as they're not pronounced as pakti/pakdi OR pandam/pantam)...

ganeshkant · Post by **ganeshkant** » 28 Sep 2016, 22:27

In Tamizh the vallina ra should be stressed.for e.g it is piRavA varam.but do we sing so ? Vocalists sing kannA instead of kaNNa.A famous female vocalist sang marai moorthi kanna ...I myself got a doubt whether rajaji composed that on rajesh khanna.I can name artists but we have a huge following here for them hence I desist.So what am I trying to say is...get your Tamizh correctly first.(all in lighter vein).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Sep 2016, 22:49

Sureshvv,
I'm with you on : bakti in tamizh. If they can do bhakti in sanskrit, that's great!
When in tamizh 'batti' is used occasionally. Then, the sanskrit bha is certainly a no no!

DKP and others did sing some words the sanskrit way and we accepted it, because their spashTam (clarity) in singing, and their greatness in bhAvA and vidvat made us overlook it.

Ganeshkant,
kannA is a no no for me while that 'na' in kanhaiyA is fine.

My ears are sensitive when sa, Sa and sha sounds are pronounced wrongly (subtle differences, but still, somewhat unacceptable). SHAnti is a Shout, rather than a peaceful utterance

Same with turaTTi Ra, subtle though the difference is while saying, singing it. In writing, a vehement no no!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Sep 2016, 23:26

rshankar wrote:OK - I will bite
...in a tamizh composition, I think bakti and bandam are fine ...

I think they are better than Bhakthi and bandham.

(as long as they're not pronounced as pakti/pakdi OR pandam/pantam)

Hilarious!!! I hope to never hear that on stage

That would be the end of all things holy!

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 28 Sep 2016, 23:30

Sivan "vaals" compositions have a heavy influx of sanskrit words. So why not do justice to his intentions with his own words rather than adjusting to lingustic boo-hoo?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Sep 2016, 00:14

Coz boo hoo is where its at

But seriously, it is one thing to borrow words but it is another to keep them in tact. The words have to be fitted inside your language. Noone says kattu maram in English, if you catch my drift.

And Bhakthi and Bandham could have flown either way, me not being a linguist.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 29 Sep 2016, 00:45

sureshvv wrote: And Bhakthi and Bandham could have flown either way, me not being a linguist.

Then Pakti and Pantam it is if you want to go by Tamil. No "Bha /Th" etc in Tamil, linguist or not

Sanskrit IMHO is *integrated* with *most* Tamil compositions, trying to separate or isolate it makes no sense.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Sep 2016, 01:19

MaheshS wrote: Then Pakti and Pantam it is if you want to go by Tamil. No "Bha /Th" etc in Tamil, linguist or not

Disagree. Tamil has Ba and Pa. Dha and Tha (not the aspirated variety). But the pronunciation is dictated by the context. The same letter is overloaded for both the sounds. But grammatical rules dictate when which sound is appropriate.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Sanskrit IMHO is *integrated* with *most* Tamil compositions, trying to separate or isolate it makes no sense.

I am not at all suggesting to separate or isolate. Actually I am recommending tighter integration - so the native language feel is retained.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Sep 2016, 02:06

sureshvv wrote:Hilarious!!! I hope to never hear that on stage That would be the end of all things holy!

Never say never - especially when the likes of paNDu rIdi instead of baNTu rIti are not all that rare on or off stage...never mind the morph in the meaning from a slave/paNi AL (baNTu) to a fruit (paNDu)...

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Sep 2016, 05:48

Some connoisseurs may simply bother whether pa is in the right swarasthanam rather than whether bha should only be ba. OK, for discussion, but if we set rules here, who is going to follow? I do not find anything amiss if bha is stressed. Bhakthiyudan paadinaa sarithaan.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Sep 2016, 07:59

!st sangati: battiyuDan
2nd sangati: ba..ktiyuDan
3rd sangati: bha....ktiyuDan toDutha
pAmAlaikkiNaiyuNDO?..you say

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 29 Sep 2016, 09:03

arasi wrote:When in tamizh 'batti' is used occasionally. Then, the sanskrit bha is certainly a no no!

http://www.kaumaram.com/thiru/nnt0567_u.html

Even though many sing it as bhaktiyAl , "edugai" (dvitiyakshara prAsa which is of Dravidian origin per scholars) dictates that the original text ought to have been pattiyAl or battiyal to match muttanA , uttamA later on.

pa-ba are contextual in Tamil - as in gangai , kAkkai for ka/ga.

mOnai may not be a problem with battiyAl and pattriyE - I think.

If we are singing Subramaniya Bharati songs, then we should be OK using Sanskitized version, as he was OK with it ( so used to say my Tamil teacher). But for works dated to older times, it may make sense to stick to their rules!

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 29 Sep 2016, 09:04

English is richer for having absorbed many foreign words as karma, ghee, miLagu thaNNi, tamarind, kattu maram etc. Some words can not be translated accurately or will fail to convey the correct meaning, if pronounced in a different way.

Many of Thyagaraja's compositions are in samskritized telugu. Similarly many of Sivan's compositions are in samskritized tamil, call it maNipravALam, if you will. Trying to change the pronunciation of the words will be doing injustice to the composer. Sivan'scomposition "valli dEvasEnApathE" is a composition in samskritam and many incorrectly sing it as "vaLLI dEvasEnApathE" ! It is better to call a spade a spade and pronounce samkrit words as such without trying tamilize them.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Sep 2016, 09:49

Here MS stresses bha, dhi and it does not sound jarring:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUXBMhuGVhQ

Normally, MS does that.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Sep 2016, 09:54

Instead of gangai (which is definitely of Samskrtham origin), better examples of ka, ga is in thangam. ka is ga in nga. Similarly thunbam, inbam. na mkaes it soft.
We sometimes commit an error like in gAndam which is kAntham (magnet). In Samskrtham also it is kAntham.
In non-phonetic languages, pronunciation is an issue.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Sep 2016, 12:54

Sundara Rajan wrote: Sivan's composition "valli dEvasEnApathE" is a composition in samskritam and many incorrectly sing it as "vaLLI dEvasEnApathE" !.

Good point. But the additional wrinkle is here "vaLLi" is a name, and hence should be rightfully pronounced as the person likes to refer to themself.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Sep 2016, 14:58

How does she like to be addressed?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Sep 2016, 16:55

வள்ளி

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Sep 2016, 18:59

kvchellappa wrote:We sometimes commit an error like in gAndam which is kAntham (magnet).

Exactly how the consort of nellaiappar (kAntimati) morphs into Gandhi's mind (gAndhimadi).

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Sep 2016, 19:01

sureshvv wrote:வள்ளி

How do you know?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Sep 2016, 19:07

Just an informed guess. The name is VaLLi and it uses the hard L in Tamil.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 29 Sep 2016, 19:32

sureshvv wrote:
Sundara Rajan wrote: Sivan's composition "valli dEvasEnApathE" is a composition in samskritam and many incorrectly sing it as "vaLLI dEvasEnApathE" !.
Good point. But the additional wrinkle is here "vaLLi" is a name, and hence should be rightfully pronounced as the person likes to refer to themself.

I do not wish to repeat the discussion on tamil "La" and samskrit "la" that I started when complimenting Pantula Rama on her correct pronunciation of "kOmala valli" in presenting D's composition at Cleveland last March. Samskrit words in compositions should be pronounced as such without trying to be politically correct and tamilizing the words. I am not sure if there was a person who was called or called herself VaLLi !
My name is Sundara Rajan in Samskritam and it is not correct to write it as "Chunthara rAchan" , just because there are no "su" ,"da" and "ja" in Tamil ! End of my discussion on the topic.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Sep 2016, 19:40

My name is Sundara Rajan in Samskritam and it is not correct to write it as "Chunthara rAchan" , just because there are no "su" ,"da" and "ja" in Tamil ! End of my discussion on the topic.

So you should accord the same courtesy to SrivaLLi.
There not being a La in Samskritam can't be an excuse.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Sep 2016, 19:47

Here is a presumption that the name came first in Tamizh. That has to be established. Sri Sivan was a great lover of Tamizh. The letter L has been introduced into Samskritham much before his time. That he chose not to use that letter (?) puts one on enquiry.
We are talking of mythology. There is no scope to guess how the person would have called herself.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Sep 2016, 19:51

You folks must have missed the movie Sri Valli when it first came out. Think it is on youtube in full

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Sep 2016, 19:57

valli--koDi in tamizh (vine) is a flattering term to any woman--koDi-iDaiyAL (slim-waisted or not). I do not know the origin of the name vaLLi is, but it means sweet potato (vine?) vaLLik kizhangu, suggesting a sweet vine?

Suresh,
You wrote earlier about placement of a word in a sAhityAam--which also matters. yes (aesthetics comes into it too, of course). I remember that a long time ago this came up, and the word solla (cholla) was talked about. I recollect saying why the first words in the song sounded right to me, sung as chollach cholla rather than solla solla--sounding better and emphatic that way. chollach cholla inithiDumE, amudan nAmam in VAchaspati.

Sundara Rajan,
kOmala valli is delightful sounding--that too from Pantula Rama

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Sep 2016, 20:03

arasi wrote: I remember that a long time ago this came up, and the word solla (cholla) was talked about. I recollect saying why the first words in the song sounded right to me, sung as chollach cholla rather than solla solla--sounding better and emphatic that way. chollach cholla inithiDumE

Recently I had the misfortune to hear "Chinnanchiru kiliye" as "Sinnanchiru kiliye". This from a leading upcoming vocalist. Thought it was a needless alteration.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Sep 2016, 20:04

I saw that in Skandapuranam there is no mention of a second wife of Muruga (?), and only in Sivacharyar's Kandapuranam there is mention. So, that it was only a Tamizh name seems in order. The issue would be whether PS wrote as Valli and if so what would be the right pronunciation. We cannot argue on the one hand that borrowed words in Tamizh must be pronounced as other Tamizh words, but words borrowed in Samskrtham must be pronounced as in the donor language.
Best is to leave it to the conscience of the singers. If it neradifies in our ears, we may grin and bear.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Sep 2016, 20:12

kvchellappa wrote:We cannot argue on the one hand that borrowed words in Tamizh must be pronounced as other Tamizh words, but words borrowed in Samskrtham must be pronounced as in the donor language.
.

But it is not just a word. It is a name. See how strongly & correctly Sundara Rajan makes the case above.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Sep 2016, 20:31

I am so cut up that people still say Sanskrit. When I was in Mumbai, someone corrected me to say Hindhi, not Hindi. I said, 'The day you say Tamizh, I will say hindhi.' Like most Tamizh people I say Modi not Modhi!
Somehow even DKJ said only Valli. I must see what Sanjay says. He is in the forefront of Tamizh champions in CM today.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 29 Sep 2016, 20:59

அமிர்தவல்லி = கஜவல்லி = தேவயானை
சுந்தரவல்லி = வனவல்லி = குறவள்ளி

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Sep 2016, 21:04

Bala,
Both are valli-s--koDiyiDaiyAr:)

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Sep 2016, 18:43

On proper names taken into Tamizh, Lakshmana has become Ilakkuvan, Jesus has become Yesu, Jehovah has become YovAn, and so on.

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 30 Sep 2016, 18:45

arasi wrote:chollach cholla inithiDumE, amudan nAmam in VAchaspati.

believe it is sollachcholla, neither chollachcholla nor solla solla. the oRRu before second solla morphs the second solla to cholla?

sureshvv, sinnanch(j)iru kiLiyE doesn't sound jarring at all to my ears.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Sep 2016, 18:59

Sankark,
Thanks for the 'ilakkaNap pUrvamAna' response. Yes, that sounds pleasing to the ears too!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Sep 2016, 19:55

solli cholli pArkkiren. ore kuzhappamA irukku!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 30 Sep 2016, 19:59

sankark wrote: sinnanch(j)iru kiLiyE doesn't sound jarring at all to my ears.

Chinnanchiru alavu chinnadha illa

Chinnanchiru nanna thaaney irukku... adhai sinna pinnam aakuvaanen?

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 30 Sep 2016, 20:32

sureshvv wrote:
sankark wrote: sinnanch(j)iru kiLiyE doesn't sound jarring at all to my ears.
Chinnanchiru alavu chinnadha illa

not an iota. To be an armchair linguist, I think of sinnadhu as colloquial siRiyadhu, which certainly isn't written/pronounced chiRiyadhu

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 30 Sep 2016, 20:41

Chinnanchiru nalla thaaney irukku... adhai sinna pinnam aakuvaanen?

Are you sure it is not the atrocious pronunciation that has become commonplace (or even fashionable) in film music & on radio/tv infecting CM also?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Sep 2016, 20:42

chinna pinnam nalla irukke!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Sep 2016, 21:06

pinnan OR bhinnam/binnam? Shattered in sanskRt is bhinna!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Oct 2016, 00:17

Tower of Babel, here!

What's pleasing to the ear is also relevant?
If s as in samudram, sumAr is used for the first letter of this word, it's not pleasing to hear. If pronounced as in chocolate or SyAm, it's fine (cholla, Solla).

In our younger days, the often differently pronounced letter was zha. Pazham and paLam, and both did not grate on our sensibilities. TV of today is the worst example of tamizh ucharippuk kolai (koLai).

Again, what is pleasing to the ear while sung is even more relevant, isn't it?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 01 Oct 2016, 08:23

To quote from sangIta kalpadruma of Sri HarikEsa , the sound sa is a basic sound of creation - from Upanishad - AkASAd vayuh - the sound of wind is 'ssss' hence sa is the first note in music itself.

So words like sari ( correct) tend automatically towards the softer sound. Unless a following consonant like in caccaravu demands stress that can influence how we start the word.

If we were to set rules - musical vocalization should have its own rules with good affinity/fidelity to language - as you say - pleasing to ears could be a criterion!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 01 Oct 2016, 18:06

How about "Kaakai Siraginiley Nandalala"? From artistes straddling the Carnatic/Light Devotional/Film divide.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 01 Oct 2016, 19:39

That is a very clear one: kakkaicciraginilE

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 01 Oct 2016, 20:40

Will it not depend whether one says it as a compound or tow different words with a gap?
Siraku, not chiraku, seems right, but kaakkaicchiraku. If one sings as kakkai.. sirakinile, chi will sound awry.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Oct 2016, 21:27

எது செவிக்கு இன்பமோ! edu Sevikku inbamO! (whichever is pleasing to the ears!).

The placement of the word?--which involves rhyming, surrounding words??

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Oct 2016, 02:17

arasi wrote:What's pleasing to the ear is also relevant?
If s as in samudram, sumAr is used for the first letter of this word, it's not pleasing to hear. If pronounced as in chocolate or SyAm, it's fine (cholla, Solla).

What is pleasing to the ear seems to be highly dependent on what one grew up with.
Both chocolate or SyAm are like how brahmins would pronounce that word. The SyAm variation Sholla is more so in that scale and not the mainstream Tamil pronunciation.

But as shankarank mentions above, there is no debate about kAkkaicciraginile . That is correct as per common and natural Tamil rules for joining words. Regarding what happens when a musician splits that word for niraval purposes etc. I think it is an edge case. It is Chiragninile as well in my books since the context of the prior word is not lost just broken for musical purposes.

btw, There have been many of these threads as Arasi has alluded to before. Some of them were quite confrontational and unpleasant while being informative. The discussion in these threads may give us a false feeling of lost cause in figuring out what is correct or not. Be as it may, in actual practice it is not that bad really. Just like Ravi Kiran says about CM grammar that there is a strong core of unambiguous and unanimous scholarship on what is correct and the exceptions people talk about should not paint the whole field as up for grabs for anyone to redefine CM. The same thing holds for Tamil pronunciation as well, even for words borrowed from Sanskrit.

The concepts of Tatsamam and Tadbhavam, while originally applied to Sanskrit related Prakrit languages also apply to unrelated languages like Tamil .

At the top level, it is really not that controversial. The context is the key. If it is a Sanskrit work, follow Sanskrit rules no matter what your background is. Musicians should try their hardest to learn the right pronunciation. Similarly for Tamil works. Now there are three types of words when it comes to Tamil words: Native words, Sanskrit borrowed Tatsamam words, Sanskrit borrowed Tadbhavam words. When a borrowed word does not fit the phonology of the borrowing language, the borrowing language changes it appropriately and those are the tadbhavam words. For Tamil, this has been widely studied and there are broad and general patterns/rules as to how such transformations have happened over the centuries. Those transformed words are Tamil words and the patterns that form such transformations are part of Tamil Grammar. If I recall right, there are a few patterns in Tamil for how such transformations happen for Aspirated consonants.

It applies to People's names as well. If one insists Tamilians call Jesus Jesus people will consider you crazy. When Purandara Dasa uses 'Alagiri', Tamilians should not change it to Azhagiri. It is a Kannada Tadbhavam transformation and that should be respected.

One edge case exception is a real person's name. It is their identity and it is monumentally important to them and people should make an attempt to pronounce it the way they want it pronounced. If you come short, so be it, at least it is not for a lack of effort.

One funny anecdote. As our rshankar probably has experienced this often, my colleagues refer to ravi as rAvi . I have corrected them enough times but they slip back to rAvi. Now, when I say 'ravi' correctly, a few people would not recognize who I am talking about. It goes like this:
'where is ravi'.
'Who?',
'ravi',
'hmm..Who?'
'rAvi'.
Oh.. yeah, got it. Do we need to wait for rAvi?
'yes, we need rAvi to clear the fogginess of this project' ( this last sentence is imaginary. I wish I can work itin when other Indians are around and see if they catch on )

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Oct 2016, 03:01

VK - I experience it alright! With a rambam no less!!