Violin Bowing....

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 11 Dec 2006, 22:03

I know it's out there, but I've started learning the violin (finally!!) and I was wondering if someone could help me with an issue I have with my bowing technique that I am not able to figure out. I get a squeaking sound while bowing at the madhyama kaalam - this is mostly on ma and ni/sa... I can't figure out why I'm having this issue, and neither can my guru... She does not get that squeak... My fingering is fine, it's only the bowing that's frustrating me..

any suggestions?

Ninja

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Dec 2006, 23:34

I have also been pondering over this issue of squeaking for some time now. Until now I have been blaming on the quality of the violin. Did your teacher try playing your violin? -just quality check

It is also frustating to me. May be I'm giving excessive gamakas,or just I need more control over the instrument.

Another point maybe- the distance between the strings and the stem. I have to prove this point before I believe it.

Or just like Coolkarni says- in the hands of experts it is path to heaven... and....

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 12 Dec 2006, 02:24

Yes, the teacher had no problems at all... Well, I did find some tips on this website, and points I think will apply to carnatic music too....

http://www.folkofthewood.com/page2661.htm#squeakiness

I can only practice using the tips...

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 13 Dec 2006, 20:18

Ninja and Suji,
When the bow moves over the strings in a perpendicular direction the "good" sound is produced. When the bow moves up and down the string ( even slightly) a squeaking sound is produced.
The bow may be moving up and down inadvertantly. To avoid this try to push your elbow up a little bit and try.

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 13 Dec 2006, 22:46

Thanks kaapi. Will concentrate on that.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 13 Dec 2006, 22:58

Kaapi,
Thanks.
Now my definition of squeaking seems to be different from Ninja.
My squeaking is not from bowing.
I get a "sound" while playing the gamakas- while going back and forth over some notes(ni sa for eg) especially in the lower Pa string. A raga like anandabhairavi I do get that sound excessively.
I tried applying lotion to my fingers, but over time I hear it again.
Any tips?

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 14 Dec 2006, 05:09

Ninja, some things to keep in mind:

1. Too much pressure or too much rosin can cause squeaks.

2. Play around with the tension in the bow, some people naturally press harder, so less tension is better, others are a little more gentle which requires more tension in the hair.

3. Play around with the position of the bow on the string. Midpoint between the end of the fretboard and the bridge is recommended, but again, different people find convenient positions. Also, concentrate on the position of the bow as you go up the scale. Beginners will often change their position unwittingly leading to undesirable noises.

All said, bowing is the one of hardest parts of this beautiful instrument. Practice slow bowing and try to sustain a sa or a pa for as long as possible in one direction (just like how you would while singing).

Disclaimer: I am hardly an expert player but these are some things that I have seen in my own experience.

BTB, are you in Arizona by any chance? I remember chancing on your website awhile back but you could be someone else.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 14 Dec 2006, 07:17

This article may be of interest. http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/ ... rticle.pdf It is an in depth article using Western music terminology and technique to describe the Carnatic style of violin artistry.

It is available at http://www.carnaticcorner.com/library.html under miscellaneous articles.

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 14 Dec 2006, 08:54

The person best suited to determine your problem is your teacher - but per your message she is unable to figure that too. I am guessing she has played on your violin without any problems. If the problem occurs regardless of the player then it would be the instrument - many instruments do tend to make squeaks and vibrations in very specific frequency ranges - if that is the case then a luther (person who makes/repairs violins) would be able to identify the problem.

For noises that are attributed to a specific person which seems to be your problem, one has to see and hear in order to determine the problem.

You should consider talking to visiting violinists or other violinists in neighboring areas.

Shankar

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 14 Dec 2006, 23:58

rasam wrote:All said, bowing is the one of hardest parts of this beautiful instrument. Practice slow bowing and try to sustain a sa or a pa for as long as possible in one direction (just like how you would while singing).

BTB, are you in Arizona by any chance? I remember chancing on your website awhile back but you could be someone else.

Rasam,

I'm beginning to realize the difficulty about bowing!!!

Yes, I am in arizona. I live & work in Flagstaff (NAU) - are you in Phoenix?

Ninja

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 16 Dec 2006, 05:06

Yes, I am in Phoenix. Do you learn violin in Phoenix area?

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 19 Dec 2006, 06:49

In Chandler... from Ms Sharada Krishnan... She also teaches vocal... We should meet sometime...

Abt my website, I just use it to put up pics... but the sitename is amusing...

:lol:

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 19 Dec 2006, 06:55

shanks wrote:The person best suited to determine your problem is your teacher - but per your message she is unable to figure that too. I am guessing she has played on your violin without any problems. If the problem occurs regardless of the player then it would be the instrument - many instruments do tend to make squeaks and vibrations in very specific frequency ranges - if that is the case then a luther (person who makes/repairs violins) would be able to identify the problem.

For noises that are attributed to a specific person which seems to be your problem, one has to see and hear in order to determine the problem.

You should consider talking to visiting violinists or other violinists in neighboring areas.

Shankar

Shankar,

Thanks. Yes, I do notice that my bow moves quite a lot. I am working on it. now that my fingering is more or less automatic, I am concentrating of maintaining my bow withing a small tolerance. I'm trying to find an optimal way of holding the bow; my thumb starts aching after about 15-20 minutes - I'm guessing it's a combo of trying to get used to it and an optimal way of gripping the bow... I see a lot of errors in my playing, but since I go to class only once in two weeks, and practice by myself in between, it's a little difficult to figure out the problem...

About other violinists visiting, that's just the problem with where I live... Flagstaff is in the middle of the mountains (a.k.a. nowhere!!!)

Ninja

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 01 Apr 2007, 11:38

Dear Brother & sister members, ninjathegreat, sujiram & shankar, The quality of the outcoming sound of the Violin should be decided on bow-handling, bow-playing, pressure of the bow upon the strings, bowing speed and the pressure of the fingers on the finger-board basing upon the space in between the strings and the finger-board etc. Better to approach an efficient teacher and to make hard and regular practice for minium 4 hrs. a day. amsharma.

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 17 Apr 2007, 06:33

Rasam, can you send me an email through the interface here? I wanted to send you an email but your id is private... Will you be coming to the MC concert this friday? I will be there...

Cheers
Ninja

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 17 Apr 2007, 08:35

Hi ninja, you can contact me at [email protected]. Yes, I'll probably be there for MC's concert.

malakrish · Post by **malakrish** » 19 Apr 2007, 17:35

Hello:
I am a newly registered member. I started learning violin but then had to discontinue for lack of instructors. I am really interested even if it involves the Gurukulam type setting. Does anyone know of any such Gurukulam where I can learn Violin. I am ready to relocate to India just for that. Please respond. Thanks a lot.

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 19 Apr 2007, 20:08

Hi malakrish,

Please check the eicky thread on the top of this section from where you can download all the initial lessons.If you need any more assistance please post your request again.

Good luck.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 02 May 2007, 16:51

Dear brother/sister-member, malakrish, Obtaining proficiency in Violin play is not that easy at all. It is always desirable to start learning Violin-play between 8 and 10 yrs. of age and even before 15 yrs. of age much of its learning should be completed. Aspirants who start learning Violin above the age of 20 yrs. need not even dream about it. In playing Violin all notes are equally difficult. While a Veena player should not feel the frets at all even though the frets are readily available a Violin player must feel the frets even in the absence of them. There are some very important techniques in Violin- play to be adapted both for the right and the left hands but they should only be taught in person and the teacher should be more vigilant while teaching them to the student. Bringing all those details here is not at all possible. amsharma.

malakrish · Post by **malakrish** » 07 May 2007, 21:02

Dear msakella:
Thanks for your response and comments. That is the reason I want to learn from a teacher face-to-face preferably in a gurukulam setting even if it is in India. However, I don't think age should be that much of a factor if the determination is there and one is prepared to put in the required time for practice. Hence, I would greatly appreciate if someone out there knows of any gurukulam for violin especially for students starting to learn from the basics. Thanks once again msakella.

malakrish.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 10 May 2007, 15:55

Dear brother/sister member, malakrish, Age also hinders our growth. After 15 yrs. of the age our brain power will be distributed on many things and thus our concentrative power decreases. Of course, your determination, single minded devotion and hard practice may help you. For all these things you should become fit both physically and mentally also. What is your age, how much time can you practice daily and what you have already learnt in music? There may be Gurukulams somewhere in our country but how much successful they are is a question. In my experience, within a period of 3 or 4 months from the day an aspirant starts learning music his/her fate in music has to be decided and within a maximum span of 4 yrs. you should become able to give a 2 hrs. solo concert.
If such a great Gurukulam is available I am also interested in visiting it. With best wishes, amsharma.

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 10 May 2007, 18:50

Malakrish,
I presume you are staying in the US. I understand that Sow. Anuiradha Sridhar ( Shri Lalgudi's niece) is living in California. You should be able to get her contact info thru any of the members staying the USA. As you are even willing to relocate to India , travelling the California once every fortninght ( assuming you are living there) will be a lot easier. Try.

Priya · Post by **Priya** » 17 Jun 2007, 12:30

hey rassssikans : )

I was wondering if anyone knows of a violin teacher in the Conroe, TX area? or even in and around Houston ?? I would appreciate any names...

regards.

cameo · Post by **cameo** » 27 Aug 2008, 16:26

msakella wrote:Dear brother/sister-member, malakrish, Obtaining proficiency in Violin play is not that easy at all. It is always desirable to start learning Violin-play between 8 and 10 yrs. of age and even before 15 yrs. of age much of its learning should be completed. Aspirants who start learning Violin above the age of 20 yrs. need not even dream about it.

Hello sir,
I started learning at the age of 24,and its about 8 months up n i do fairly well and keen in learnign more. .
Could you clarify why you mentioned,it difficult to be proficient starting after d age of 20.

Regards,

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 30 Aug 2008, 19:14

@ ninjathegreat

Maybe you're not pressing the strings hard enough (with your fingers, that is). As you go higher, you need to press slightly harder. If you are still in madhya sthAyi (saraLi varisais and all), then ma, ni and sa are the hardest-pressed notes.

But don't press too hard, or your fingers might hurt!

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 31 Aug 2008, 16:14

Dear b/s-member, cameo, Having worked as Lecturer in Violin and Principal for over 35 years in the Govt. Colleges of Music & Dance of Andhra Pradesh and having critical teaching experience for more than 50 years I very well tell that starting the learning of Violin after the age of 20 years vastly differs with the learning at the age of around 8 or 10 years.
To tell the fact, it is not fair if I, myself, tell that I play Violin just like the Violin Maestro Shri M.S.Gopalakrishnan. I may have to believe this if Shri M.S.G.himself tells this after listening to my Violin-play. Of course, even then I doubt myself. In general, anybody relishes his own music well than anybody else and, in the same manner, you, naturally, tell that you can do it fairly well. You are telling that you are 24 years of age, started learning Violin only 8 months back and fairly doing it well. Unless I know the details of what you are learning and unless I listen to your video-clippings in which way you are practicing and playing Violin I cannot agree with you as this is a practical subject. More over than anything else, I may not be able to discuss properly all the relevant points here as this is a practical subject. amsharma.

cameo · Post by **cameo** » 01 Sep 2008, 17:53

Dear sir,
I very wel understand that,if a person of your talent and vast experience says about that, there should not be any way of questioinig on that. yes, i can understand it, by seeing the examples of various established artists,that they all have started it in a very young age.
But personally,I dont believe in that.In one way or the other the age factor has its advantages and disadvantages. At the end, the hardwork and determination pays. I was just confident on my playing and said,it was fairly better.. I would definitely develop it and show you.
Though i am very new to this forum,going through various posts, I understand you effectively spare your time a lot in helping out the rasikas with your advices. Its beyond just thanking.

Regards,

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 02 Sep 2008, 12:46

Dear brother-member, cameo, Please try to develop and show me. I wish you every success. amsharma.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 02 Sep 2008, 20:36

Cameo,

It just depends on your level and your target set. You can play of course . but you may not be able to reach heights. but you can certainly play in a mediocre or even better. Some of the performing accompanists have started late and they do fairly well. so you can and all the best. Great S.Balachander had said that he first touched the Veena at the age of 20...

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 03 Sep 2008, 07:08

Dear brother-member, ganesh_mourthy, Yes, What you wrote is correct. Even though I was well acquainted with classical music right from my 3 year of age I too have started learning Violin at my age of 17. However, nowadays, finding an efficient, dedicated, loyal, impartial and sincere teacher is veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery difficult. Everywhere we find a number of music or Veena or Violin-teachers. But, more than 95% among them are only successful performers but not successful teachers at all, which makes all the difference. More over, in general, the teachers teach their children, if they have at all, well than others. A professional teacher must always remain vigilant upon his student to make him sing or play just like him technically though not musically. The mind of the student must also become ripen according to his age and environment to become musically also like his teacher. This art should always be learnt and practiced beginning it before sun rises and after for hours together but not in the evenings at our rest time. There are so many factors like them, which contribute their might. amsharma.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 03 Sep 2008, 10:02

Dear Cameo,

go through the violin lessons that msakella ji has furnished in the you tube for learning. It would be of immense help when you start and proceed and inspirational too. As said by him getting the right teacher itself is a task. as you progress if you could send your video to msakellaji he could double check your playing and tell where you are leading to.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Sep 2008, 15:24

I suspect that many people make the potential mistake of wanting to be taught by famous performers. Should they become professionals, their teacher's name can be waved like a flag, along with the name of their grandfather or great-grandfather, if they are lucky in that direction.

Of course it would be excessively cynical of me to suggest that it is all ego; what could be more natural than to want to be taught by someone who's style of playing you love? Even I, who know nothing about the teaching in Chennai, if I am asked about mridangam, will say, "when you see someone who's playing you enjoy, ask them afterwards if they take students".

I don't know how the poor teachers who are not concert performers survive, but I have heard, several times, from people who are learning, "You won't have heard of my teacher, they are not that good on the stage, but are skilled in teaching".

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 03 Sep 2008, 16:12

No you are not cynical at all Nick. This is a grave misapprehension that students pursuing music carry with them. For some learning from a hotshot is itself is a previlege and from non performing others is quite demotivating.

Not all good musicians are adept at teaching. And even if they are good are they willing to devotedly teach?

But you can't learn from someone just to make him survive only becuase he does not perform. In that case it is not musical pursuit but a simple social service.

what is crucial here is a good teacher with an ability to teach and a student unfettered in his interests to learn. Perseverance of teacher as well as student counts.

In essence, a good teachers yearns for a good student.But the million dollar question is how to find a good teacher.My suggestion would be the already learning students' performances stands testimony to the guru's teaching skills. Msakella sir what is your stance on this ????

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 03 Sep 2008, 16:18

Dear brother-member, nick H, Many of the famous performers do not know even what to teach and how to teach the aspirants. Teaching is very highly difficult than performing. A performer performs what he knows and what he can but a professional teacher has to assess the different levels of the rhythmical instinct, musical instinct, grasping ability, assimilating ability, practicing ability and reproducing ability of his student just like a mother who very well knows the different levels of likings, unlikings, digestive ability etc., etc of her kids. While testing an MBBS candidate the examiner should know what he knows and while testing an MD candidate the examiner should know what he doesnâ€™t know. Ultimately always the teacherâ€™s duty is to make his student independent in all aspects. Whoever does this should only be called â€˜GURUâ€™ if not â€˜BARU (in Telugu-weight)â€™. amsharma.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Sep 2008, 22:34

Your experience itself sings!

I have my own small story. I was asked by my teacher to take some classes with very small boys in another school. I was really rather surprised, saying, "Guruji, many of ten-year-olds know more and can play more than I can!"

He replied, "That is true, Nick... but they cannot explain it, and you can."

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 03 Sep 2008, 23:24

msakella wrote:Dear brother-member, nick H, Many of the famous performers do not know even what to teach and how to teach the aspirants. Teaching is very highly difficult than performing. A performer performs what he knows and what he can but a professional teacher has to assess the different levels of the rhythmical instinct, musical instinct, grasping ability, assimilating ability, practicing ability and reproducing ability of his student just like a mother who very well knows the different levels of likings, unlikings, digestive ability etc., etc of her kids. While testing an MBBS candidate the examiner should know what he knows and while testing an MD candidate the examiner should know what he doesnâ€™t know. Ultimately always the teacherâ€™s duty is to make his student independent in all aspects. Whoever does this should only be called â€˜GURUâ€™ if not â€˜BARU (in Telugu-weight)â€™. amsharma.

Respected Sir,
Just restricting myself to Violinists, I have been physically personally present & observed when LGJ, TNK, MSG, VVS taught students at a slightly better than BEGINNER'S level. I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU. I was amazed at how much they knew & how perceptive they were!
My relevent experiences in this area are: I learnt Vocal, Flute & Mridangam long enough to know that I am better off as researcher in Physics& a Professor. I have been listening to Carnatic music for over 55 years...In general all assertive statements usually have exceptions.....vkv

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Sep 2008, 02:42

I do not think that any statement to the effect that a great performer or a famous performer cannot be a great teacher was ever made.

In fact I was hoping that I was not giving that impression as I posted a couple of posts ago. Only the other day I was listening to a young student of TN Krishnan's, and hasn't Lalgudi-sir been renowned for his teaching as well as his playing.

msakella writes that teaching and performing are different skills, and I believe him, and that his experience has shown him this. Remember that he, too, has been a performer as well as a teacher.

I happen to think that my mridangam guruji is brilliant on stage, and one of the best accompanists I have seen.

The point is that a great performer is not necessarily any good as a teacher, not that they never are, and that a teacher, although they must necessarily have some competence, does not necessarily sparkle on stage.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 04 Sep 2008, 05:11

nick H wrote:I do not think that any statement to the effect that a great performer or a famous performer cannot be a great teacher was ever made.

In fact I was hoping that I was not giving that impression as I posted a couple of posts ago. Only the other day I was listening to a young student of TN Krishnan's, and hasn't Lalgudi-sir been renowned for his teaching as well as his playing.

msakella writes that teaching and performing are different skills, and I believe him, and that his experience has shown him this. Remember that he, too, has been a performer as well as a teacher.

I happen to think that my mridangam guruji is brilliant on stage, and one of the best accompanists I have seen.

The point is that a great performer is not necessarily any good as a teacher, not that they never are, and that a teacher, although they must necessarily have some competence, does not necessarily sparkle on stage.

Dear Nick H,
My observations only had to do with MSK'S OBSERVATIONS NOT YOURS.. I am NOT A LAWYER. I am only reacting to negative & unsubstantiated statements being made. To me msk is indulging in unnnecessary conjectures. Obviously one can hide saying an absolute statement was not made. Thats exactly what I am claiming too! vkv

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 04 Sep 2008, 07:52

Dear brother-members, Everywhere efficiency and in-efficiency co-exist irrespective of their varied percentage. Of course, I have my own bitter observations in this respect of which I cannot bring out the true details lest the individuals feel hurt. Even though this is a very important discussion to be brought out to the notice of all the aspirants, I also feel that this is also so sensitive that it can orally be discussed person to person but not in written statements like in these posts. So, I request you to permit me to stop here. amsharma.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Sep 2008, 11:05

Dear all,

I think this subject is getting a bit sensitive here and msakella ( is he msk you are all refering to? ) had already conceded apprehensive of the oncoming misinterpretations.

THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT ABOUT GETTING EVEN BUT, LEVELLING WITH EACH OTHER SO THE FACT BE ANALYZED AND THE OBJECTIVE BEING ONLY MUSIC WITHOUT OFFENDING THE SENTIMENTS OF INDIVIDUALS.

not all good musians make good teachers=some musicians are good teachers too.

As a musician and a luminary in carnatic musician MSakella might be hesitant to unleash some of the bitter truth he might have experienced.

But as an outsider and with an inclination to music I think I have every right to discuss about it .

Celebrities do not have time in the first place. And even if they have how willing are they to teach the students or how generous are they? Are they ready to impart the same knowledge that they bestow on to their offsprings. There are great musicians I have witenessed teaching 2 different things i.e 1 for their children and other for OTHERS. BUT HERE I AM NOT GENERALISING BUT THESE ARE EXCEPTIONS BUT PAINFUL EXCEPTIONS AND UNBECOMING to THEIR GREATNESSES. I stress here, not all does it .

how unbiased are the musicians in their teaching? How impartial are the musicians in nurturing an outsider and making them sit along to sing or play in the process of bringing their students however good they are . I am afraid , in most cased it is like handing over to their children.

Mostly if not all , it is always the children who accompany and not the students. That is what I mean by HANDING OVER.

I doubt Y most musians coudl not find better students than their progeny fr accompanying them on the stage. Once fame hits a person he is more bent on preserving it preferrably passing it to their children for the lineage to continue. Here the lineage continues but the real beauty of music is lost.

Dig deeper into your minds and you can take out a big list.
and whoever nurtured an outsider probably had delinquent or stubbornly unyielding kids.

TRUTH IS BEAUTY AND BEAUTY IS TRUTH.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Sep 2008, 13:38

Well, one thing is sure: we are way away from the technical matter of violin bowing!

I don't think it is right to start throwing stones at named individuals in the context of a thread like this, and I would never ask a professional to rate his fellow professionals in public. Whether it is their code of ethics or simply the fact that they may seriously embarrassed, that prevents them, many simply will not.

The state of teaching in the present day is certainly something to be discussed.

The changing nature and methods is also to be discussed, and has to be taken into account. Many young students of olden times (and perhaps of the more traditional masters today even) were (according to the stories I have been told by musicians) little more than errand runners and domestic helps. I never heard anyone write off that time, though: they were in proximity to the musician, they were exposed to the music taking place in the house.

On the other hand, others were exposed to such discipline in their learning and practice, that probably no-one would accept today.

It's a big subject.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 04 Sep 2008, 13:43

Well said ganesh

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Sep 2008, 15:26

nick H wrote:Well, one thing is sure: we are way away from the technical matter of violin bowing!

I don't think it is right to start throwing stones at named individuals in the context of a thread like this

Hi nick I am sure, I have not mentioned a single name in my writng there

:(:(:(
music is our objective and certainly not slandering someone.

By the by thanks rajmunds,

you are one soul who accepted my views outright.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Sep 2008, 18:30

I don't disagree with what you say, Ganesh.

The bigest problem with finding a teacher is how to judge the quality of the teaching when we know nothing, which is why we need a teacher?

Teaching is like dentistry: the dentist can seem charming and competent, but it can take years to find out what was wrong with the treatment.

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 04 Sep 2008, 18:42

A lot is being said here on teaching. Some key points to note for any student from my experience are:

1. The skills required for teaching beginners is very different from the ones midway and from that for the advanced students. It is no different from the regular skills where the qualification, characteristics and caliber of teachers in elementary, high schools and colleges differ.

2. Those who teach the beginners are not necessarily performing musicians - many of them teach to make a living, their interest in music and for various other reasons. Most of them are quite aware of their limitations and expect their good students to go away to other teachers for advanced lessons etc.
The patience required for teaching beginners is immense and that is hardly to be expected from established musicians.

3. No senior musician worth his/her salt is going to sit down and teach the basics (exception being their children). Established musicians in fact refuse to teach beginners
I would even go to the extent, it is a bad idea to learn from senior musicians because their expectations can be very high and that can turn off the students particularly the beginners and those at the mid level. Frankly, many who do teach beginners in their trips other countries actually do more harm than good and probably do it to satisfy the sponsors.

4. On the age factor i have a different take specifically on learning instruments. The older students tend to pick up quickly in the earlier stages - they are more focused, have the interest and defined goals and that helps in rapid progress in the initial stages; but very soon they hit a plateau and struggle. while their mind and desire exists, their ability to make their body parts perform is the biggest stumbling block. It is simply that the body parts have decided that the degrees of flexibility that existed in the younger years are no longer required. And there is also the knowledge of music, exposure to various musicians, preferred musicians and the analytical ability that interferes the learning process - some of these are certainly helpful, but they generally tend to impede the progress.

On the other hand, the children start slowly, can be exasperating at times and suddenly they simply take off advancing their skills by leaps and bounds (depending on their interest level and family support of course).

5. Many adults take to learning instruments and vocal not to become performers, but to either expand their knowledge, for their personal satisfaction or hobby and even along with their children for moral support in the initial stages.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Sep 2008, 20:08

Finding a good teacher is tiring than the process of learning itself.
but the students that the teacher has already created stand as a testimony , right???

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Sep 2008, 20:49

I agree a great performer need not be a great teacher, but someone who teaches for performance needs to be a decent performer themselves (unless they have some health problem).

And btw, what happened to the original question? Did the thread starter figure out and correct their problem?

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Sep 2008, 21:00

ganesh_mourthy wrote:Celebrities do not have time in the first place. And even if they have how willing are they to teach the students or how generous are they? Are they ready to impart the same knowledge that they bestow on to their offsprings. There are great musicians I have witenessed teaching 2 different things i.e 1 for their children and other for OTHERS. BUT HERE I AM NOT GENERALISING BUT THESE ARE EXCEPTIONS BUT PAINFUL EXCEPTIONS AND UNBECOMING to THEIR GREATNESSES. I stress here, not all does it .

We can find a lot of exceptions if we look. Semmangudi and Maharajapuram Santanam have even sung duets, and I listened to a Lalgudi Vijayalakshmi-Vittal Ramamurthy duet too. Neither is Semmangudi MS's grandfather nor is GNB MLV's granduncle, nor MLV Sudha Raghunathan's second cousin.

Painful exceptions? I don't think so!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 04 Sep 2008, 21:14

srikant1987
Generally if guru -sishya is seperated by one to one and half generations just as in sudhA-MLV, the exceptions are felt . Assuming srividya actress daughter of Smt MLV taken up seriously CM , we would not know how the case would have turned out to be for sudhA.

SanthAnam and ssi have sung as duet when ssi was 80 plus.But if the guru -sishya is only half to one generation apart then unfortunately it may turn out to be a different story.

I think the sishyA should have the acumen to come out much much early then rather sitting little too long with guru.There are also sishyA sons like shri rAMachandran son of illustrious santhAnam , who should have started much much earlier in singing solo then rather accompanying too many times with santhAnam .More than learning exit timing is crucial

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Sep 2008, 21:30

well said rajeshnat,

I wanted to give this example but had a second thought. what would have happened to sudha if srividya had been studious enough. but she chose cimema.

I think srikanth is giving all the once in blue moon examples. of semmangudi santhanam, lalgudi vittal etc. these are very rare concerts

Kanyakumari does trio and such things with her students and she is a spinster I guess.