Tamil word for 'placeholder'

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Nov 2015, 00:48

I got stumped with such a seemingly straightforward question. What is the tamil word for 'placeholder'?

The context was something like this. 'Send the message to <placeholder>' Depending on the outer context, it will be changed to
'Send the message to Rama'
'Send the message to Lakshmana'
'Send the message to Krishna'
etc.

The ones I thought of are 'pOli' ( fake, which is not satisfactory ) or 'iDam odukkudal' or 'odukkiDam'( 'reserve a spot' or 'place set aside' - sort of OK but sounds a bit obscure and not even sure most people will get it ).

No big deal, just curious.

Any ideas?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 18 Nov 2015, 02:19

Uppukku chappani

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 18 Nov 2015, 05:17

Kannada word would be "nEmaka"

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Nov 2015, 06:50

oppukku chappANi...I have heard it used.

Oppukku (in comparison, a nAm kE vAstE)?? UrakE in telugu, sumnE in kannaDa in meaning.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 18 Nov 2015, 07:10

குறிப்பிட்டவர் - kuRippiTTavar

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Nov 2015, 10:09

Of course, in sending a message context, kuRippiTTavar (kuRippiTta nabar) fits well.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Nov 2015, 10:43

Ok, thanks all.

Btw, don't take my context too literally, I was trying to describe the context of the usage for placeholder.
It is a placeholder for something, that is the important part. What goes in its place can be a thing, place, concept etc.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 18 Nov 2015, 12:27

O. Panneerselvam

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Nov 2015, 20:09

Kokilam,
In Sureshvv's vein, thuNDu (towel). Don't know if they do it nowadays (they do, in concerts with any object they happen to carry): in a railway compartment, an early arrival spreading a towel on a seat until the fellow traveller arrives. May be an extinct thing, with reservations on line and all!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 18 Nov 2015, 22:44

thuNdu podarathu is very common when public feast is offered at temples to avoid missing the first line (seat pidikkarathu (reserving seats in old style). In US now a days we keep a bag or so for our friend or family if they come late!!!!

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 19 Nov 2015, 21:20

is palaanavar (பலானவர்) or palaanadu (பலானது) the word you're looking for, VK?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Nov 2015, 04:25

Suresh:

In a way that captures the meaning I had in my mind, understandable easily by those who know TN politics. I see now where oppukku chappANi comes in as a very related word

Arasi, VKR, the thundu comes close to the placeholder concept, but it is more for reservation which is again a related matter. An interesting and humorous example is, in Chicago city proper, after you shovel the snow off the street parking space in front of your house, you protect it by placing your household items like Mattress, chairs and even couches. Yes, it is still practiced in the main city neighborhood streets every winter where street parking is a premium. (
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/1 ... 71978.html
)

Sridhar, I do not even know that word. But taking a guess, it seems to be like 'Polymorphic' ( one item with many forms ). May be I am making an over reaching connection

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 20 Nov 2015, 08:05

How about kaabandhu? (காபந்து )

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Nov 2015, 08:20

Sridhar,
I am familiar with the expression palAna which can also be 'appaDip paTTavar--so and so, so and so??

VK,
Chicago's 'dibs' is something new to me! Hard work, you want to come back to your parking place I suppose, but man is also territorial

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Nov 2015, 08:23

PBHairavi,
That kAbandu sounds very much like a northern word come into tamizh.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 20 Nov 2015, 11:21

tamil newspapers use the word காபந்து அரசு to indicate interim govt

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Nov 2015, 21:33

Yes, PB. I see what you mean. Now, it can shift a bit and also mean: in the place of...so, we go on the merry go round of meanings. thuNDu pODubavarE thuNDAvadu pOl! How rich indeed is tamizh!

Sorry Kokilam for taking you farther away from what you wanted

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 20 Nov 2015, 22:15

Submit this as a request to Dinamani.. Every Sunday, they choose a request and analyse the responses by several persons and settle on an answer.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 20 Nov 2015, 22:17

Ponbhairavi wrote:tamil newspapers use the word காபந்து அரசு to indicate interim govt

That means Caretaker government rather than Interim government.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 20 Nov 2015, 22:19

sridhar_ranga wrote:is palaanavar (பலானவர்) or palaanadu (பலானது) the word you're looking for, VK?

Probably not. Those words mean risqué, prurient, etc., at least in common parlance.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Nov 2015, 00:23

Let me take a different approach to the issue, hopefully more fun.

The sample tamil sentence is.

iyyo thona thonakkAdappA, enakku correcta theriyAduppA, ippa saddikku ida placeholdera vechchukko. Nalaikku solren edunnu

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Nov 2015, 05:06

appappA, indat tamizhanbar tollai poRukkalaiyppA!
pArappA, melvAr, asai pODuvAr soRkaLaiyE--visaiyuDanE
paraparappAip parimARuvAringE--kOkilamE solvEn--enavE
chellappA sol alasum dina idazhkE, Harimau solvadu pOlavE

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Nov 2015, 05:29

In tamizh script here...

அப்பப்பா, இந்தத் தமிழன்பர் தொல்லை பொறுக்கலையப்பா!
பாரப்பா, மெல்வார், அசை போடுவார் சொற்களையே--விசையுடnE
பர பரப்பாய்ப் பரிமாறுவார் --கோகிலமே சொல்வேன், ஆகவே--
செல்லப்பா தின இதழ்க்கே--அரிமௌ சொல்வது போலவே

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Nov 2015, 08:09

Arasi, Reading your poem is more fun now than the main topic. Thanks

Here is another example in the context of time rather than space.

'Here is a placeholder meeting invite and I will confirm once I know the customer's availability'.

I thought this is instructive because we talked about the meaning of 'reservation'. In this usage, 'reservation' is definitely there, the extra point is that it is not confirmed. There is no obligation that you keep the time reserved for this meeting. The implied obligation is you make your best effort.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 21 Nov 2015, 08:14

Doubly sweet as my name comes indirectly!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 21 Nov 2015, 08:15

palanavar as I heard is more so and so, some indefinite person, not a euphemism.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Nov 2015, 09:30

Chellappa,
You are glad, and so am I--
Hope all namesakes are too--
After all, wasn't the name
Given in such endearment?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Nov 2015, 09:32

VK,
Others will chime in.
ippOdaikku--for now...

indak kUTTaththiRkAna ippOdaiya azhaippu idu. vADikkaiyALargaL vasadikkETRa nAL therinda pin maRu azhaippu anuppugiROm.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 21 Nov 2015, 11:22

V.K himself has given the answer.. it is " இப்போ சத்திக்கு " But it is colloquial.( I do not know whether placeholder is also colloquial in english/american context ) In his post 21 remove the placeholder. The remaining sentence conveys the full nuance.
As " சத்திக்கு " is colloquial arasi has changed it asஇப்போதைக்கு ( for the present , provisionally )
The sentence at post 24 can be rendered as
இந்த கூட்டத்திற்கான அழைப்பாக இப்போ சத்திக்கு (VK) / ( இப்போதைக்கு - அரசி ) (தாற்காலிகமாக -pb)-இதை கொள்ளவும் ....
or as Arasi put it :
இந்த கூட்டத்திற்கான இப்போதைய அழைப்பு இது ...

( aside )
பழனி பூக்கடையில் : இதை மலர் இன்னும் சொல்லுவாக பூ இன்னும் சொல்லுவாக ஐயா சொல்லுராகளே அப்பிடியும் சொல்லுவாக ( புஷ்பம் )

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Nov 2015, 23:11

The last few posts from Arasi and Ponbhairavi made me think about placeholder as a holder of something in 'space/place' or 'time' or 'either'.

After some reflection, I think my colleague's use of the word 'placeholder' is not correct.("Here is a placeholder meeting invite and I will confirm once I know the customer's availability"). She really meant 'tentative or provisional' as Ponbhairavi says above. "Here is a meeting invite. It is tentative and I will confirm once I know the customer's availability". 'tentative/provisional' is the right one to use when we are referring to events in the time domain. People still understood what she meant, but that is a different thing.

So I think 'placeholder' as is used in common english speech is with respect to the 'space domain' and so the word 'place' is appropriate after all.

so, (இப்போ சத்திக்கு, இப்போதைக்கு, இப்போதைய, தாற்காலிகமாக etc ) refer to the time domain and hence are not placeholders. I am the one who caused the confusion by quoting a usage which I now think is wrongly used.

So strictly limiting to 'non time' related use, what do we have left as the tamil translation for placeholder?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 21 Nov 2015, 23:46

vk,
I will quote with two examples.
Bharata kept the sandals of Sri Rama in the simhAsana and, as promised to SrI Rama, he held the reign till His return.
Panneerselvam remained CM of Tamil Nadu on the clear assumption that he would 'hold the fort' till Amma returned.

Now in these two instances, the appropriate Tamil word, IMHO, is பேருக்கு - பெயருக்கு, மேலுக்கு, பார்வைக்கு, தோற்றத்திற்கு etc.

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 22 Nov 2015, 00:35

Yes, I agree 'Palaana' conveys the same meaning as 'so and so', 'such and such' - btw, aren't these expressions kind of place holders?....the word could be of Urdu/Hindi origin ('phalaan') with the same meaning in both Tamil and the original language (just like say dastaavEju or namoona - there, another placeholder word for u!)

IMO, the risque association with palaana is recent and a creation of Kollywood industry. Heck, 'item' is risque in Tamil these days

. so is ALu (ஆளு). The risqueness is context dependent.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Nov 2015, 03:23

Vgv, yes, you pulled out the right and powerful example of a placeholder with that bharatha example. Paduka Pattabhishekam Is tantamount to Placeholder Pattabhishekam indeed with the Paduka acting as a placeholder.

Your translations sound right and relatable. How will you use that in a sentence in the noun form. E.g. 'Paduka was the placeholder'

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Nov 2015, 05:51

You start with: rAman iDathil pAdukai, until he comes (time IS involved, isn't it, though indirectly?)

Otherwise, aren't the pAdukais replacing HIM?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Nov 2015, 07:22

Arasi, yes you are right, time is indeed involved indirectly even when we are talking about 'space'. Made me scratch my head a bit. So what is the difference? I have the following so far.

'Placeholder' serves a purpose temporarily alright but what it is and what is being substituted are things and that have extensions in space ( if I may ). That is they are things.

In the case of the future calendar entry, it refers to a not-so-fully-fleshed-out event which is a mark in the time domain. The time itself may not hold ( tentative ), the agenda is not fleshed out though the topic is known ( provisional ). I am not sure if placeholder is a right word to use for that but I see people using it.

===
I think there is a subtlety involved. I am not sure how strictly people follow this. ( I am not def getting into the analysis paralysis stage )

The 'thundu/towel' to reserve a seat is a placeholder alright in the literal sense since it is holding a place for you, but it is more a reservation for you and there is a certainty about it.

The other case is when the thing that is going to take its place is not certain. It can be this, it can be that.. etc. I think that is how it is typically used.
That is, it is used when there is a plurality of items that can be substituted or there is some uncertainty what will be substituted there. Only thing that is certain that it is not the real thing.

If we go with this definition, then pannerselvam and paduka are not placeholders.

Does that aspect strike you all as a significant characteristic of a 'placeholder' ? ( I have my own doubts if that is a required criterion )

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 22 Nov 2015, 08:00

Why not coin a new word?

iDa pAlan (இட பாலன்) may be appropriate.

Other option could be:
iDam kAppOn (இடம் காப்போன்)

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 22 Nov 2015, 08:05

The following I got from Google Search -

"noun: place-holder
1.
MATHEMATICS
a significant zero in the decimal representation of a number.
2.
LINGUISTICS
an element of a sentence that is required by syntactic constraints but carries little or no semantic information, for example the word it as a subject in 'it is a pity that she left', where the true subject is 'that she left'."

In the case of Mathematics, a place holder is definitely not temporary or insignificant. It is very significant.
In case of linguistics example, it is simply the rules of grammar and usage.
In case of Computer languages, this seems to be a jargon for which a suitable word may have to be derived.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Nov 2015, 08:24

PBala's iDam kAppOn sounds good.

Govindan,
Thanks for your references.

Kokilam,
We do have an example of what you are saying. Kamalamba announced GBL Remembrance concert months ago. The performers and place were announced recently. Now, we are waiting for the time

of each item in the all day long event...

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 22 Nov 2015, 15:18

இடைச்செருகல்
: In its literary connotation means interpolation.But the structure of the word does not have anything against ( contravene ) the idea og temporariness orthe intent of keeping the place.
another suggestion is
இடை வைப்பு

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 22 Nov 2015, 18:28

Why not 'prathi'?

Not Tamil, of course!

I have heard 'barthi' in use to mean replacement.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Nov 2015, 20:16

Or pre-prati=earlier version?

VK,
For some reason, your wondering has caught on and we are all getting carried away with it. Even our pet feline chimes in, and how inexhaustible his knowledge is and in seeking it, we all know...