Single transliteration scheme for all CM languages?

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 03 Dec 2006, 03:03

Also if we are talking about a malayalm krithi, in the transl. text input, i would rather we enter ambu (i.e. how it is pronounced and not how it is spelt in the Indic language). This will help it being rendered correctly in all languages. The scheme should refer to phonemes. Agreed?

How will it be transliterated into Malayalam then?? 'np' or 'mb'? If it's the former, then I agree with the scheme. Also, the word 'anpu' (kindness) in Tamil will be represented in Malayalam as: a+<n-chillaksharam>+pa+u - hope your scheme will do this?

On a side note, it seems perplexing to me as an outsider, as to why ambu is not written as it sounds (i.e. sort of like a + m + bu) as malayalam alphabet does distringuish pa with ba !

Why is the sky blue?

i did find a reference which mentions 3 forms including "npa" where there is a "misfit between visual sign and pronounciation". The others seem "ngka" (i.e. ng + ka), and "ksha" (i.e. k + sha). How are they pronounced?

'ngka' > pronounced more as 'ng-ga'
'ksha' > pronounced like 'sh-sha' (difficult for me to write this! imagine stressing the 'sh', press your tongue on the upper wall of the mouth and release it suddenly.) (I suspect the new script writes this as: ka+<chandrakala>+sha.) Having said all that, this one is a bit tricky: we tend to pronounce both ways, i.e. as 'ksha' and 'sh-sha'. Usually, if an elongated vowel sound precedes it, then it's more 'ksha', if a shorter vowel sound precedes, it's more 'sh-sha'. E.g. pakshi (bird) is pronounced more as pa+sh-shi, while sAkshi is pronounced more as sA+kshi. For your transliteration scheme, suggest you go with the 'ksha' version, so that you don't have to invent a new sound which may not exist in other languages!

The reference also later mentions two more:
1. RR (two hard ra) is pronounced as Ta. I am not sure if i am interpreting this right? Can you give an example. This seems sort of similar to tamizh where RR => Tr (or TR).
2. Also mentions "n" + "Ra" becomes "nda" unless "n" is cillaksara in which case it is/remains "nRa" (gives the example of henry).

1. Yes, Ra+Ra is pronounced as Ta - the Ta in this case is different from, say, paTTam (as in kite). It's much sharper - imagine saying the English sound for 'T' and then stressing it a bit more.
2. Yes - e.g. 'EntE' (meaning 'my') is written as na+Ra. It's pronounced as 'nta' not 'nda'. (Again, the t here is like the English sound for t, much sharper than 'our' t). The chillakshara is used for 'henry' sound, yes. So this would be closer to the Tamil 'nanri' (for thanks).

I'm amazed you are able to grasp all this without any audio clips!

(Or are you really??)

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 03 Dec 2006, 03:43

Pl. confirm these. I hope these are comprehensive.

Hope so. Not sure if you covered the 'nn' case completely. The other languages don't have the Malayalam 'nn' (as in 'nanni' for thanks). We discussed this at some length earlier, but I'm not sure what you have decided. It has an assigned letter in the language (can't recall the unicode number offhand) - but I susepct it may be represented in the new script as: na+<chandrakala>+na
This is a very frequently occurring syllable in Malayalam (and I'm sure appears in several kritis), so how do you propose to transliterate it?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Dec 2006, 04:14

jayaram wrote:
Also if we are talking about a malayalm krithi, in the transl. text input, i would rather we enter ambu (i.e. how it is pronounced and not how it is spelt in the Indic language). This will help it being rendered correctly in all languages. The scheme should refer to phonemes. Agreed?
How will it be transliterated into Malayalam then?? 'np' or 'mb'? If it's the former, then I agree with the scheme.

Yes as np.

Also, the word 'anpu' (kindness) in Tamil will be represented in Malayalam as: a+<n-chillaksharam>+pa+u - hope your scheme will do this?

So if it is phonetically "nb" (anbu, inbam), then it should be written as <n-cillaksharam> + "p"? If so, yes this can be handled as will.

Also malayalam nanni i think could be inputted as say na%ni (or nan_ni) to explicitly imply different sound for that first na, and hence can rendered in other languages as "n" with some qualifier to indicate this. Note that we cannot input as simply nanni as that phonetically is akin to tanni, pannaga etc. In other words "nn" is already taken to mean a different phonetic sound, and so "n%n" or "n_n" etc. (note choice of % or _ is arbitrary at this point)

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 03 Dec 2006, 10:16

arun,

1. என்த
2. என்த' (where i have arbitrarily used ' as a qualfier - it could be anything, say a small raised "1" )
3. எம்த
4. எம்த'
5. எந்த
6. எந்த'

My order of preference is
2, 6, 1, 5

IMHO there is no question of order of preference. Tamil has set rules for this purpose - I shall describe them here -

(a) In the beginning of the word only ந can come and not ன. - Ex - நாள், நான் and never னான்.

(b) Generally in the middle and end of the word only ன can come - பனி, சனி, மன்னி, பன்மை.
exception to the rule - when two words are joined the second of which has ந as the first letter - எந்நாளும் - எந்த+நாளும்

(c) If த succeeds, then it will always be ந - எந்த, சொந்த - and never என்த

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 03 Dec 2006, 13:48

I suppose then we have no choice but to use option 6?

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 03 Dec 2006, 13:51

So if it is phonetically "nb" (anbu, inbam), then it should be written as <n-cillaksharam> + "p"? If so, yes this can be handled as will.

Sorry again, that should be 'b' not 'p' consonant at the end of 'anbu'! (And it is a chandrakala, not 'u' at the very end)
A related question: how would you represent 'anbukku'? As you know, the 'u' appearing between 'b' and 'k' in this word is neither an 'i' nor a 'u' sound, but an extension of the chandrakalai sound. Perhaps it's too much of an ask??

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Dec 2006, 19:05

vgvindan,

i am aware of those rules . While i agree that write as ??? doesnt make sense for tamizh words and will look odd, we arent talking about tamizh words and tamizh sounds here

. Other languages are going to have consonant combinations which simply wont figure in tamizh.

In any case, i think option 6 is fine.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Dec 2006, 01:07

jayaram,

Since that u has a different sound, it would have to carry a separate symbol in the input (perhaps u^). So anpu^ (for ambu).

But I think we still have a problem. Looks like the sound "mb" appears in two different ways depending on the word. In ambu it is "np" - but in ambujam, rambha it is the bindu form. So if the input has "nb" combination then it seems ambigous doesnt it?

Arun

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 04 Dec 2006, 05:51

But I think we still have a problem. Looks like the sound "mb" appears in two different ways depending on the word. In ambu it is "np" - but in ambujam, rambha it is the bindu form. So if the input has "nb" combination then it seems ambigous doesnt it?

Perhaps we should just ignore the 'ambu' case and treat them both the same way, i.e. using the bindu. I suppose Mallus will have to manage! (I am thinking of kritis with 'ambu' versus 'amba kamakshi' type of lyrics...)

By the way, 'anbu' doesn't occur in Malayalam naturally - do you know if it appears in Kannada/Telugu? (I thought they use the bindu in all cases?)

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 07 Dec 2006, 16:32

I may inform those interested that a software for following transliterations are available for free distribution along with source code written in VB6-

(1) From iLeap (CDAC) (ANSI) version Devanagari to Devanagari Unicode.
(2) From iLeap (CDAC)(ANSI) version Tamil to Unicode Tamil.
(3) From Unicode Devanagari to Unicode of Tamil, Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam.

Right now the software is available as macros in Excel - the Worksheets contain charts of iLeap ANSi code and Unicode details of these languages.
If anyone is desirous, the same can be converted to menu driven and made .exe file.
Further the unicode to unicode software provides facility for extension to other Indian languages also.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 15 Dec 2006, 19:18

Arun - is your software ready for alpha release?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Dec 2006, 21:14

not quite jayaram. Sorry that I was diverted into another related subject for the last 2 weeks and so this was sort of put on pause.

I still need people to test the malayalam, sanskrit and telugu part as I am sure it has bugs. I will try to finish it by the end of the year.

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 18 Dec 2006, 11:50

I may inform those interested that a software for conversion of Unicode Tamil to Devanagari, Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam has been developed in VB6, based on the pronunciation rules of Tamil. A sample of a Tamil song duly converted is placed below.
The software, as it stands, caters only for purely Tamil language words. The 'tatsamam' words - Sanskrit words with Tamil alphabets (eg 'kamalam') or 'tatbhavam' words - Sanskrit words with (extended) Sanskrit letters in Tamil (eg 'bhajana') are not covered because the sound pattern of these words conflict with the rules laid down for pronunciation of Tamil words. This facility can also be brought in as explained below.
Devanagari script has been taken as primary conversion script because it caters for alphabets of all Indian languages. Therefore, by editing the Devanagari version, it is possible to bring in the sound patterns of 'tatsamam' and 'tatbhavam' words also. So edited text of Devanagari, when converted to Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam will be more realistic.
In the song enclosed, you will find the words 'Siva' 'guru', 'Sankara' are not of the correct pronunciation. The second version of the Song duly edited is also given.
The conversion is based purely on Tamil usage. For example the 'sunna' symbol used in Telugu and Kannada in lieu of 'G', 'J', 'N', 'n' and 'm' has not been catered for. This feature also could be incorporated if suitable rules are enunciated.
Those knowledgeable in these languages - as also Tamil - may please place their comments so that the software could be improved. The software is meant for free distribution along with source code. Right now, this is available as a macro in Excel which could be converted to a menu driven *.exe file.

Tamil
பல்லவி -
எப்படிப் பாடினரோ அடியார்
அப்படிப் பாட நான் ஆசை கொண்டேன் சிவனே (எப்படி)
அனு-பல்லவி -
அப்பரும் சுந்தரரும் ஆருடைப் பிள்ளையும்
அருள் மணிவாசகரும் பொருளுர்ந்து உன்னையே (எப்படி)
சரணம் -
குருமணி சங்கரரும் அருமைத் தாயுமானாரும்
அருணகிரி நாதரும் அருட்சோதி வள்ளலும்
கருணைக் கடல் பெருகி காதலினாலுருகி
கனித்தமிழ் சொல்லினால் இனிதுனை அனுதினம் (எப்படி)

Devanagari
पल्लवि -
ऎप्पडिप् पाडिऩरो अडियार्
अप्पडिप् पाड नाऩ् आसै कॊण्डेऩ् सिवऩे (ऎप्पडि)
अऩु-पल्लवि -
अप्परुम् सुन्दररुम् आरुडैप् पिळ्ळैयुम्
अरुळ् मणिवासगरुम् पॊरुळुर्न्दु उऩ्ऩैये (ऎप्पडि)
सरणम् -
कुरुमणि सङ्गररुम् अरुमैत् तायुमाऩारुम्
अरुणगिरि नादरुम् अरुट्चोदि वळ्ळलुम्
करुणैक् कडल् पॆरुगि कादलिऩालुरुगि
कऩित्तमिऴ् सॊल्लिऩाल् इऩिदुऩै अऩुदिऩम् (ऎप्पडि)

Devnagari (Edited - for tatsamam and tatbhavam)

पल्लवि -
ऎप्पडिप् पाडिऩरो अडियार्
अप्पडिप् पाड नाऩ् आसै कॊण्डेऩ् शिवऩे (ऎप्पडि)
अऩु-पल्लवि -
अप्परुम् सुन्दररुम् आरुडैप् पिळ्ळैयुम्
अरुळ् मणिवासगरुम् पॊरुळुर्न्दु उऩ्ऩैये (ऎप्पडि)
सरणम् -
गुरुमणि शङ्कररुम् अरुमैत् तायुमाऩारुम्
अरुणगिरि नादरुम् अरुट्चोदि वळ्ळलुम्
करुणैक् कडल् पॆरुगि कादलिऩालुरुगि
कऩित्तमिऴ् सॊल्लिऩाल् इऩिदुऩै अऩुदिऩम् (ऎप्पडि)

Telugu
పల్లవి -
ఎప్పడిప్ పాడినరో అడియార్
అప్పడిప్ పాడ నాన్ ఆసై కొణ్డేన్ చివనే (ఎప్పడి)
అను-పల్లవి -
అప్పరుమ్ సున్దరరుమ్ ఆరుడైప్ పిళ్ళైయుమ్
అరుళ్ మణివాసగరుమ్ పొరుళుర్న్దు ఉన్నైయే (ఎప్పడి)
సరణమ్ -
కురుమణి సఙ్గరరుమ్ అరుమైత్ తాయుమానారుమ్
అరుణగిరి నాదరుమ్ అరుట్చోది వళ్ళలుమ్
కరుణైక్ కడల్ పెరుగి కాదలినాలురుగి
కనిత్తమిళ్ సొల్లినాల్ ఇనిదునై అనుదినమ్ (ఎప్పడి)

Telugu - (Converted from Devanagari Edited version)

పల్లవి -
ఎప్పడిప్ పాడినరో అడియార్
అప్పడిప్ పాడ నాన్ ఆసై కొణ్డేన్ శివనే (ఎప్పడి)
అను-పల్లవి -
అప్పరుమ్ సున్దరరుమ్ ఆరుడైప్ పిళ్ళైయుమ్
అరుళ్ మణివాసగరుమ్ పొరుళుర్న్దు ఉన్నైయే (ఎప్పడి)
సరణమ్ -
గురుమణి శఙ్కరరుమ్ అరుమైత్ తాయుమానారుమ్
అరుణగిరి నాదరుమ్ అరుట్చోది వళ్ళలుమ్
కరుణైక్ కడల్ పెరుగి కాదలినాలురుగి
కనిత్తమిళ్ సొల్లినాల్ ఇనిదునై అనుదినమ్ (ఎప్పడి)

Kannada
ಪಲ್ಲವಿ -
ಎಪ್ಪಡಿಪ್ ಪಾಡಿನರೋ ಅಡಿಯಾರ್
ಅಪ್ಪಡಿಪ್ ಪಾಡ ನಾನ್ ಆಸೈ ಕೊಣ್ಡೇನ್ ಚಿವನೇ (ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ)
ಅನು-ಪಲ್ಲವಿ -
ಅಪ್ಪರುಮ್ ಸುನ್ದರರುಮ್ ಆರುಡೈಪ್ ಪಿಳ್ಳೈಯುಮ್
ಅರುಳ್ ಮಣಿವಾಸಗರುಮ್ ಪೊರುಳುರ್ನ್ದು ಉನ್ನೈಯೇ (ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ)
ಸರಣಮ್ -
ಕುರುಮಣಿ ಸಙ್ಗರರುಮ್ ಅರುಮೈತ್ ತಾಯುಮಾನಾರುಮ್
ಅರುಣಗಿರಿ ನಾದರುಮ್ ಅರುಟ್ಚೋದಿ ವಳ್ಳಲುಮ್
ಕರುಣೈಕ್ ಕಡಲ್ ಪೆರುಗಿ ಕಾದಲಿನಾಲುರುಗಿ
ಕನಿತ್ತಮಿಳ್ ಸೊಲ್ಲಿನಾಲ್ ಇನಿದುನೈ ಅನುದಿನಮ್ (ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ)

Kannada (Converted from Devanagari Edited version)

ಪಲ್ಲವಿ -
ಎಪ್ಪಡಿಪ್ ಪಾಡಿನರೋ ಅಡಿಯಾರ್
ಅಪ್ಪಡಿಪ್ ಪಾಡ ನಾನ್ ಆಸೈ ಕೊಣ್ಡೇನ್ ಶಿವನೇ (ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ)
ಅನು-ಪಲ್ಲವಿ -
ಅಪ್ಪರುಮ್ ಸುನ್ದರರುಮ್ ಆರುಡೈಪ್ ಪಿಳ್ಳೈಯುಮ್
ಅರುಳ್ ಮಣಿವಾಸಗರುಮ್ ಪೊರುಳುರ್ನ್ದು ಉನ್ನೈಯೇ (ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ)
ಸರಣಮ್ -
ಗುರುಮಣಿ ಶಙ್ಕರರುಮ್ ಅರುಮೈತ್ ತಾಯುಮಾನಾರುಮ್
ಅರುಣಗಿರಿ ನಾದರುಮ್ ಅರುಟ್ಚೋದಿ ವಳ್ಳಲುಮ್
ಕರುಣೈಕ್ ಕಡಲ್ ಪೆರುಗಿ ಕಾದಲಿನಾಲುರುಗಿ
ಕನಿತ್ತಮಿಳ್ ಸೊಲ್ಲಿನಾಲ್ ಇನಿದುನೈ ಅನುದಿನಮ್ (ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ)

Malayalam
പല്ലവി -
എപ്പഡിപ് പാഡിനരോ അഡിയാര്
അപ്പഡിപ് പാഡ നാന് ആസൈ കൊണ്ഡേന് ചിവനേ (എപ്പഡി)
അനു-പല്ലവി -
അപ്പരുമ് സുന്ദരരുമ് ആരുഡൈപ് പിള്ളൈയുമ്
അരുള് മണിവാസഗരുമ് പൊരുളുര്ന്ദു ഉന്നൈയേ (എപ്പഡി)
സരണമ് -
കുരുമണി സങ്ഗരരുമ് അരുമൈത് തായുമാനാരുമ്
അരുണഗിരി നാദരുമ് അരുട്ചോദി വള്ളലുമ്
കരുണൈക് കഡല് പെരുഗി കാദലിനാലുരുഗി
കനിത്തമിഴ് സൊല്ലിനാല് ഇനിദുനൈ അനുദിനമ് (എപ്പഡി)

Malayalam (Converted from Devanagari Edited version)

പല്ലവി -
എപ്പഡിപ് പാഡിനരോ അഡിയാര്
അപ്പഡിപ് പാഡ നാന് ആസൈ കൊണ്ഡേന് ശിവനേ (എപ്പഡി)
അനു-പല്ലവി -
അപ്പരുമ് സുന്ദരരുമ് ആരുഡൈപ് പിള്ളൈയുമ്
അരുള് മണിവാസഗരുമ് പൊരുളുര്ന്ദു ഉന്നൈയേ (എപ്പഡി)
സരണമ് -
ഗുരുമണി ശങ്കരരുമ് അരുമൈത് തായുമാനാരുമ്
അരുണഗിരി നാദരുമ് അരുട്ചോദി വള്ളലുമ്
കരുണൈക് കഡല് പെരുഗി കാദലിനാലുരുഗി
കനിത്തമിഴ് സൊല്ലിനാല് ഇനിദുനൈ അനുദിനമ് (എപ്പഡി)

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 18 Dec 2006, 20:13

Shri Govindan - here's some quick feedback:

1. Words like Saranam don't appear correctly (I can say this for Sanskrit and Malayalam only). They appear as 'saranam' ('sa' as in the shadja-swaram). However சிவனே seems to be getting mapped correctly to शिवऩे - so not sure what rule you are using. (But சுந்தரரும் is correctly mapped to सुन्दररुम् !)

2. Tamil uses the consonant shortened form to show stress, e.g. in எப்படிப் பாடினரோ the 'pa' sound appears in the two words (at the end in the 1st, at the beginning for the 2nd) . But other languages (again, Sanskrit and Malayalam I know of) don't do it this way. Either you join the two words, or you leave it without the stressed consonant. So you write as if the Tamil version is எப்படி பாடினரோ - without the stressed 'pa'.

Hope all that is clear!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 18 Dec 2006, 20:25

jayaram,

Saranam don't appear correctly

I missed editing it; this word is a 'tatsamam' word and will not give out correct pronunciation by following Tamil rules. (According to Tamil the sound of ச in the beginning of a word will be like स.)

Tamil version is எப்படி பாடினரோ - without the stressed 'pa'

In the absence of original version of the song, I reproduced from whatever I heard according to literary usage.
Regarding your suggestion to omit such joining letters, I request you to refer to the following link where I have given the original version of kRti of Subrahmanya Bharati - I wonder how musicians would treat this kRti!
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=27214#p27214
Kindly try uttering பாடினரோ after எப்படி without joining the lips - the ப் sound is naturally produced. No singer can sing it by dropping ப். The rules of Tamil grammar follow natural flow of sounds.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 19 Dec 2006, 01:59

vgvindan,

In kannada,telugu and devanAgari versions as well, the 'ப்' (it's equivalent half consonents) is superflous [when it is occuring between 2 words as in this example] , and best be dropped.

This is because you get the same sound with just எப்படி பாடினரோ or its equivalent.

-Ramakriya

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Dec 2006, 17:00

Ramakriya,
It is indeed strange that, just because other languages do not have such a stipulation, Tamil lyrics also should follow the same.
Is the music set to lyric or lyric is adjusted to music?
May be, we should ask all Tamil lyricists to adhere to this suggestion. How about rewriting all the Subrahmanya Bharati's kritis?
PS: I have revisited your suggestion; if the suggestion is regarding dropping the joining letter for the versions prepared for other languages, my objection would not be valid.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 19 Dec 2006, 17:26

By the way, I just noticed it is எப்படி பாடினரோ above - shouldn't the 2nd word have an elongated 'Aa' after the 'Na'??

Dropping the 'ப்' would be a challenge, esp if we are going the other direction, e.g. Sanskrit to Tamil! Couldn't you use additional rules to handle this?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Dec 2006, 17:39

The kriti has been reproduced by me as noted down from recordings. IMHO, it should be pADinarO - பாடினரோ - because this indicates a plural; பாடினாரோ with elongated னா - would mean singular. As the lyricist mentions many names in the kRti, பாடினரோ - plural - seems to be appropriate. However, I am not sure. The original version should be referred if any doubt arises.
Regarding dropping the connecting ப் from the versions prepared for other languages, it could be possible to implement. But ப் or similar such joining letters should remain in the Tamil version, without which the language would lose its flavour.
I shall try to implement this in the versions of other languages and be back.
How about Malayalam? Does it also not have this joining letters?
Can someone answer?

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 19 Dec 2006, 18:17

How about Malayalam? Does it also not have this joining letters?
Can someone answer?

No, Malayalam doesn't have this joining letter. I mentioned this in my earlier posting above.
Tamil seems to be unique in this aspect (besides many others...)!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Dec 2006, 19:50

The following is the implementation of the suggestion to remove the joining letter between words like - எப்படி பாடினரோ. It may be noted that the joining letter at the end of a word ending only has been removed - the word ending being recognised as a space. Such joining letters between two words if given without a space in between, (எப்படிப்பாடினரோ) cannot be recognised because it will conflict with such letters appearing as part of single word (எப்படி).

Tamil - original version

பல்லவி -
எப்படிப் பாடினரோ அடியார்
அப்படிப் பாட நான் ஆசை கொண்டேன் சிவனே (எப்படி)
அனு-பல்லவி -
அப்பரும் சுந்தரரும் ஆருடைப் பிள்ளையும்
அருள் மணிவாசகரும் பொருளுணர்ந்து உன்னையே (எப்படி)
சரணம் -
குருமணி சங்கரரும் அருமைத் தாயுமானாரும்
அருணகிரி நாதரும் அருட்சோதி வள்ளலும்
கருணைக் கடல் பெருகி காதலினாலுருகி
கனித்தமிழ் சொல்லினால் இனிதுனை அனுதினம் (எப்படி)

Devanagari - edited for tatsamam and tatbhavam words
पल्लवि -
ऎप्पडि पाडिऩरो अडियार्
अप्पडि पाड नाऩ् आसै कॊण्डेऩ् शिवऩे (ऎप्पडि)
अऩु-पल्लवि -
अप्परुम् सुन्दररुम् आरुडै पिळ्ळैयुम्
अरुळ् मणिवासगरुम् पॊरुळुणर्न्दु उऩ्ऩैये (ऎप्पडि)
चरणम् -
गुरुमणि शङ्कररुम् अरुमै तायुमाऩारुम्
अरुणगिरि नादरुम् अरुट्चोदि वळ्ळलुम्
करुणै कडल् पॆरुगि कादलिऩालुरुगि
कऩित्तमिऴ् सॊल्लिऩाल् इऩिदुऩै अऩुदिऩम् (ऎप्पडि)

Telugu Version
పల్లవి -
ఎప్పడి పాడినరో అడియార్
అప్పడి పాడ నాన్ ఆసై కొణ్డేన్ శివనే (ఎప్పడి)
అను-పల్లవి -
అప్పరుమ్ సున్దరరుమ్ ఆరుడై పిళ్ళైయుమ్
అరుళ్ మణివాసగరుమ్ పొరుళుణర్న్దు ఉన్నైయే (ఎప్పడి)
చరణమ్ -
గురుమణి శఙ్కరరుమ్ అరుమై తాయుమానారుమ్
అరుణగిరి నాదరుమ్ అరుట్చోది వళ్ళలుమ్
కరుణై కడల్ పెరుగి కాదలినాలురుగి
కనిత్తమిళ్ సొల్లినాల్ ఇనిదునై అనుదినమ్ (ఎప్పడి)

Kannada Version
ಪಲ್ಲವಿ -
ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ ಪಾಡಿನರೋ ಅಡಿಯಾರ್
ಅಪ್ಪಡಿ ಪಾಡ ನಾನ್ ಆಸೈ ಕೊಣ್ಡೇನ್ ಶಿವನೇ (ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ)
ಅನು-ಪಲ್ಲವಿ -
ಅಪ್ಪರುಮ್ ಸುನ್ದರರುಮ್ ಆರುಡೈ ಪಿಳ್ಳೈಯುಮ್
ಅರುಳ್ ಮಣಿವಾಸಗರುಮ್ ಪೊರುಳುಣರ್ನ್ದು ಉನ್ನೈಯೇ (ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ)
ಚರಣಮ್ -
ಗುರುಮಣಿ ಶಙ್ಕರರುಮ್ ಅರುಮೈ ತಾಯುಮಾನಾರುಮ್
ಅರುಣಗಿರಿ ನಾದರುಮ್ ಅರುಟ್ಚೋದಿ ವಳ್ಳಲುಮ್
ಕರುಣೈ ಕಡಲ್ ಪೆರುಗಿ ಕಾದಲಿನಾಲುರುಗಿ
ಕನಿತ್ತಮಿಳ್ ಸೊಲ್ಲಿನಾಲ್ ಇನಿದುನೈ ಅನುದಿನಮ್ (ಎಪ್ಪಡಿ)

Malayalam Version
പല്ലവി -
എപ്പഡി പാഡിനരോ അഡിയാര്
അപ്പഡി പാഡ നാന് ആസൈ കൊണ്ഡേന് ശിവനേ (എപ്പഡി)
അനു-പല്ലവി -
അപ്പരുമ് സുന്ദരരുമ് ആരുഡൈ പിള്ളൈയുമ്
അരുള് മണിവാസഗരുമ് പൊരുളുണര്ന്ദു ഉന്നൈയേ (എപ്പഡി)
ചരണമ് -
ഗുരുമണി ശങ്കരരുമ് അരുമൈ തായുമാനാരുമ്
അരുണഗിരി നാദരുമ് അരുട്ചോദി വള്ളലുമ്
കരുണൈ കഡല് പെരുഗി കാദലിനാലുരുഗി
കനിത്തമിഴ് സൊല്ലിനാല് ഇനിദുനൈ അനുദിനമ് (എപ്പഡി)

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Dec 2006, 20:05

Dropping the 'ப்' would be a challenge, esp if we are going the other direction, e.g. Sanskrit to Tamil!

I have been transliterating the Thyagaraja Kritis into all languages including Tamil. It is not possible to incorporate the joining letters when transliterating from other languages to Tamil unless you go in for extensive parsing of the language with a dictionary. As Transliteration has a limited scope, such deficiences have to be accepted provided you reproduce the correct sound patterns - not exactly as stipulated in the language.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Dec 2006, 20:43

vgvindan,

Even in tamizh, if the two words are separated, as in எப்படிப் பாடினரோ (as opposed to எப்படிப்பாடினரோ), may be it would be acceptable for our purposes to drop the ப்? If we see எப்படி பாடினரோ, almost all of us would read the second word as pADinarO and not bADinarO. then in this case there is no word as bADinarO

and that could be the reason. Even in cases where there is possibility of ambiguity (pAvam vs bAvam), the context may lead us to only one the possibilities.

I guess my point is you could drop the intervening "mei" for separated words in places where there is no ambiguity and thus make way for ease of translation to other languages. Not ideal but perhaps very workable for the current purpose.

Arun

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 19 Dec 2006, 21:19

Shri Govindan - going thru the Malayalam transliteration in more detail, I find it still have several errors. Almost all the words ending in sharp consonants (e.g. கொண்டேன்) are shown with a 'chandrakkala'. But Malayalam has distinct letters for these. (I will have to search thru previous posts to retrieve some of them.) I had gone thru these same points with Arun, so maybe he can explain it in technical terms!

Also, words like ஆசை still appear as आसै in both Sanskrit and Malayalam. They should be ASai, not Asai.

Finally, words ending such as அப்பரும் should end with a 'o' in Malayalam, not 'Ma' followed by chandrakkalai. Again, Arun and I had gone over this a few times before.

(Welcome back, Arun!)

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Dec 2006, 21:33

arun,

intervening "mei" for separated words

The above implementation caters for this requirement where words are separated without any ambiguity about the pronunciation. The Devanagari version is ऎप्पडि पाडिऩरो - आरुडै पिळ्ळैयुम् - अरुमै तायुमाऩारुम् - करुणै कडल् - the second word in all these cases starts with correct sound 'pa', 'ta, 'ka'.
The sound 'g', 's', 'D', 'd' and 'b' will come only when a vowel or mellinam (G, J, N, n, p n2) or idaiyinam (y, r, l, v, zh, L) precedes vallinam (k,c,T,t,p) within a word and not among words. I hope I have clarified your query.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Dec 2006, 21:41

jayaram,

அப்பரும் should end with a 'o' in Malayalam, not 'Ma' followed by chandrakkalai

I hope it is the same case with Telugu and Kannada also.
Similary the concept of sunna in place G, J, N, n, p needs to be properly defined. I understand Malayalam does not have sunna concept. From whatever knowledge I have about Telugu, I understand, sunna has almost replaced G, J, N, n, p. Is it correct? What about Kannada?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Dec 2006, 22:36

jayaram wrote:Also, words like ஆசை still appear as आसै in both Sanskrit and Malayalam. They should be ASai, not Asai.

. This could be a controversial. IMO, ஆசை, in tamizh is definitely Asai. That many people pronounce it as ASai is a different story. I think it is like an accent

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Dec 2006, 23:24

jayaram,

அப்பரும் should end with a 'o' in Malayalam, not 'Ma' followed by chandrakkalai

How about this?
പല്ലവി -
എപ്പഡി പാഡിനരോ അഡിയാര്
അപ്പഡി പാഡ നാന് ആസൈ കൊണ്ഡേന് ശിവനേ (എപ്പഡി)
അനു-പല്ലവി -
അപ്പരും ചുന്ദരരും ആരുഡൈ പിള്ളൈയും
അരുള് മണിവാസഗരും പൊരുളുണര്ന്ദു ഉന്നൈയേ (എപ്പഡി)
ചരണം -
ഗുരുമണി ശങ്കരരും അരുമൈ തായുമാനാരും
അരുണഗിരി നാദരും അരുട്ചോദി വള്ളലും
കരുണൈ കഡല് പെരുഗി കാദലിനാലുരുഗി
കനിത്തമിഴ് സൊല്ലിനാല് ഇനിദുനൈ അനുദിനം (എപ്പഡി)

Regarding 'Asai', I don't think we can make an exception for a single word. the श concept is not there in Tamil. Either we live with it or, as suggested earlier, we may edit Devanagari version for such important words - as done for சிவனே.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 19 Dec 2006, 23:53

vgvindan wrote:Ramakriya,
It is indeed strange that, just because other languages do not have such a stipulation, Tamil lyrics also should follow the same.
Is the music set to lyric or lyric is adjusted to music?
May be, we should ask all Tamil lyricists to adhere to this suggestion. How about rewriting all the Subrahmanya Bharati's kritis?
PS: I have revisited your suggestion; if the suggestion is regarding dropping the joining letter for the versions prepared for other languages, my objection would not be valid.

vgvindan

My comment was only for the transliteration done in dEvanAgari, kannaDa etc - I am aware each language (and script) has its own rules on representation. I am not suggesting that Tamil lyricists should follow it !

-Ramakriya

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 19 Dec 2006, 23:54

This could be a controversial. IMO, ஆசை, in tamizh is definitely Asai. That many people pronounce it as ASai is a different story. I think it is like an accent

Hmm, and I always thought ASai was the educated and propah accent! We Palghat-ers of course say ASai, thanks to the Malayalam influence.

Which makes me wonder: how should this be represented in Malayalam? Asai is not a valid word in Malayalam - unless you are imitating (or mocking?

) a Tamilian!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 20 Dec 2006, 00:02

How about this?

This one is much better. However, words like adiyAr, nAn, kondEn etc. end with the (consonant + chandrakkalai) in your representation. Malayalam has special letters for these, so perhaps you should use these. Arun and I discussed this specific point earlier in this thread, so you can find the details there (inlcuding unicode etc.)

Also, it appears as 'chundararum' in the 1st line of anupallavi - shouldn't that be 'sundararum'? Another example of the Tamil 'cha/Sa/sa' creating trouble for us! Why use the same letter for all 3 sounds??

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Dec 2006, 01:24

jayaram wrote:Which makes me wonder: how should this be represented in Malayalam? Asai is not a valid word in Malayalam

If the original krithi is tamil, you represent it like Asai. Else (if it is say from malalAlam) will be ASai (but tamizh will write it as Asai, but qualify the "sa"). I dont know if this is the aim in vgvindan's tool, but it would be better to try to represent the pronounciation of the source language, rather than morphing it as approp to target language as the latter will introduce all sorts of pronounciation inconsistencies.

(although in this specific case both Asai and ASai in cm circles is perfectly fine for the tamizh word).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Dec 2006, 02:19

Hmm, and I always thought ASai was the educated and propah accent!

No, that would not sell with Tamil pundits. Coming to think of it, it may be spoken that way in some brahmin households but not all.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 20 Dec 2006, 05:02

If the original krithi is tamil, you represent it like Asai. Else (if it is say from malalAlam) will be ASai (but tamizh will write it as Asai, but qualify the "sa").

This source-language rule could lead to some difficulties of its own (e.g. the Malayalam 'nanni' example I cited earlier), but I suppose any solution would be imperfect.

By the way, how do you qualify the 'sa' as you mention above? Will it be written as ஆசை, but an additional tag added on to it? Could get quite messy!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Dec 2006, 07:45

jayaram wrote:By the way, how do you qualify the 'sa' as you mention above? Will it be written as ???, but an additional tag added on to it? Could get quite messy!

Yes - how else can you write it when the language does not have the "Sa" sound

.

And yes you qualify it with additional tags. Yes messy but about the same messiness as extending the alphabet

. Besides as I have said before check out cm books in tamizh of say tyAgarAja krithis. You have qualifiers all over the place. Not that messy once you get used to it

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 20 Dec 2006, 10:15

'chundararum' in the 1st line of anupallavi - shouldn't that be 'sundararum'?

This has since been fixed.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 20 Dec 2006, 10:45

adiyAr, nAn, kondEn etc. end with the (consonant + chandrakkalai) in your representation.

അഡിയാര്
നാന്
കൊണ്ഡേന്
There seems to be only two characters in Malayalam Unicode - one represented by keyboard character 'd' - Unicode 0D02 (anuswara) and keyboard character 'x' - Unicode 0D4D (virama) for shortening the consonant.
With virama (character 'x'), you get the 'm' sound as in അപ്പരും
With anuswara (character 'd'), you get നാന് type.
Which other character you mean?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Dec 2006, 19:59

jayaram wrote:
How about Malayalam? Does it also not have this joining letters?
Can someone answer?
No, Malayalam doesn't have this joining letter. I mentioned this in my earlier posting above.
Tamil seems to be unique in this aspect (besides many others...)!

Does it not? What about Alappuzha, mAvElikkara, truppAdam(triuppAdam), koDukkappeTTu etc? I think it does have the joining vyanjana.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 20 Dec 2006, 21:42

Can someone point out the drawbacks in the Kannada and Telugu versions of the
kRti so that I may improve upon it?

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 20 Dec 2006, 22:17

drshrikaanth wrote:Does it not? What about Alappuzha, mAvElikkara, truppAdam(triuppAdam), koDukkappeTTu etc? I think it does have the joining vyanjana.

Of course, Malayalam does have the vyanjana. The context of the discussion you quote is where we were talking about the 'anticipatory' kind that appears in Tamil, e.g. எப்படிப் பாடினரோ (i.e. Eppadip pAdinarO) where there is an extra 'pa' at the end of the first word. Tamil seems to be unique in this (unless Kannada/Telugu also have this usage that I am not aware of).

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 20 Dec 2006, 22:47

vgvindan wrote:അഡിയാര്
നാന്
കൊണ്ഡേന്
There seems to be only two characters in Malayalam Unicode - one represented by keyboard character 'd' - Unicode 0D02 (anuswara) and keyboard character 'x' - Unicode 0D4D (virama) for shortening the consonant.
With virama (character 'x'), you get the 'm' sound as in അപ്പരും
With anuswara (character 'd'), you get നാന് type.
Which other character you mean?

Apparently, Unicode hasn't captured all the Malayalam alphabets.
Please see: http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/N3126.pdf
If you read Section 8: Encoding the cillaksarams, you will find the proposal to include a few more codes to cover these sounds correctly. So in the above examples, the last letters will be covered by:
0D7C for അഡിയാര് (adiyAR) and
0D7B for നാന് (nAn) and കൊണ്ഡേന് (kondEn)
etc.

The document cited is as of May 2006, so not sure whether these have been included in Unicode already.

Arun, do you know?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Dec 2006, 23:21

jayaram wrote:
drshrikaanth wrote:Does it not? What about Alappuzha, mAvElikkara, truppAdam(triuppAdam), koDukkappeTTu etc? I think it does have the joining vyanjana.
Of course, Malayalam does have the vyanjana. The context of the discussion you quote is where we were talking about the 'anticipatory' kind that appears in Tamil, e.g. எப்படிப் பாடினரோ (i.e. Eppadip pAdinarO) where there is an extra 'pa' at the end of the first word. Tamil seems to be unique in this (unless Kannada/Telugu also have this usage that I am not aware of).

Yah! That was the context I was talking about. Its all about being a "Sensitive" reader

Without thet "extra" vyanjana as you acll it, the words I have quoted should be "Alapuzha, mAvElikara--" and so on but are actually spelt Alappuzha, mAvElikkara, tiruppAdam and koDukkappeTTu.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 20 Dec 2006, 23:33

drshrikaanth wrote:
jayaram wrote:
drshrikaanth wrote:Does it not? What about Alappuzha, mAvElikkara, truppAdam(triuppAdam), koDukkappeTTu etc? I think it does have the joining vyanjana.
Of course, Malayalam does have the vyanjana. The context of the discussion you quote is where we were talking about the 'anticipatory' kind that appears in Tamil, e.g. எப்படிப் பாடினரோ (i.e. Eppadip pAdinarO) where there is an extra 'pa' at the end of the first word. Tamil seems to be unique in this (unless Kannada/Telugu also have this usage that I am not aware of).
Yah! That was the context I was talking about. Its all about being a "Sensitive" reader

Without thet "extra" vyanjana as you acll it, the words I have quoted should be "Alapuzha, mAvElikara--" and so on but are actually spelt Alappuzha, mAvElikkara, tiruppAdam and koDukkappeTTu.

I am afraid you are not making much sense here. Are you saying that when these words are split up into two, e.g. Mavelikkara - Malayalis would write as Mavelik kara??

Let me repeat the point I made above - just to make sure I am being a sensitive writer at least...

"The context of the discussion you quote is where we were talking about the 'anticipatory' kind that appears in Tamil, e.g. எப்படிப் பாடினரோ (i.e. Eppadip pAdinarO) where there is an extra 'pa' at the end of the first word."

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Dec 2006, 23:42

the cillaksharas of malayalam are not formally accepted i think but i believe that the Microsoft font rendering engine does look for information in the font that may allow it to use the cillakshara (depending on contextual rules built into font rendering engine - so if they got it wrong, you are screwed and cannot fix it from the font.)

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Dec 2006, 23:48

jayaram wrote:I am afraid you are not making much sense here. Are you saying that when these words are split up into two, e.g. Mavelikkara - Malayalis would write as Mavelik kara??

What you are saying is you cannot make sense. Never mind.

Iam saying nothing about whether these words are written together or separately. Iam only pointing to the extra vyanjana(reduplication) occuring at the sandhi of these words which would not be there if what you said was right. i.e the anticipatory vyanjana does occur. Now the question is if it occurs consistently or not.

Let me repeat the point I made above - just to make sure I am being a sensitive writer at least...
"The context of the discussion you quote is where we were talking about the 'anticipatory' kind that appears in Tamil, e.g. எப்படிப் பாடினரோ (i.e. Eppadip pAdinarO) where there is an extra 'pa' at the end of the first word."

I trust you can see what Im saying. Now, if you have understood what Im seeing and still think it is wrong, please explain clearly.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Dec 2006, 23:50

jayaram,

Perhaps the point is that may be that languages like sanskrit, kannada etc. dont need the extra character even when you combine.

Malayalam uses it only when combined into single word.

Tamizh seems unique that it can use even when written as 2 words, But i wonder if it is an influence from tamizh poetry (and poetry/prosody) rules. If you look at old tamizh poetry you would see "unusual" splits, and you will have mei's hanging at the split. But there I believe the split is not really there and is done in written form to to meet (or convey) such rules (??). So perhaps one could argue that எப்படிப் பாடினரோ is really one word எப்படிப்பாடினரோ and would be that way were it not for prosodical stuff (which doesnt apply as much in CM krithis??). Now with this combined word, எப்படிப்பாடினரோ, the ப் becomes mandatory because without it, எப்படிபாடினரோ changes the pronounciation to eppaDibAdinarO. But since malayAlam has different characters for pa vs ba, then it is interesting that it still mandates the extra equivalent of ப். That may be drs' point.

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Dec 2006, 23:53

You are right. Thanks for getting the import. The logical explanation I can think of is it is a remnant of the tamizh connection that malayalam has historically (and linguistically?)

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 21 Dec 2006, 02:45

Forgive me for asking this - Is Alappuzha made of 2 words ( Ala + puzha -> a river called Ala perhaps?)

-Ramakriya

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 21 Dec 2006, 03:03

Ramakriya -
Alam means land in old Malayalam. So perhaps this name is a combination of land + river

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 21 Dec 2006, 03:10

arunk wrote:Perhaps the point is that may be that languages like sanskrit, kannada etc. dont need the extra character even when you combine.

Malayalam uses it only when combined into single word.

Sanskrit does have sandhis and conjoined words. And it does use the 'extra character'. E.g. 'Tiruppati' would be written with 'pp' in Sanskrit. Not different from Malayalam.
I suspect Kannada and Telugu (for that matter, several other Indic languages) also have similar structures.

The original point I was making was that Tamil is unique in including the 'anticipatory' consonant in split words scenario. I don't think I need to defend any other points that I did not make!