Rolling of "r"s while rendering sahityam

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jan 2015, 14:22

I am finding this phenomenon becoming irritatingly ubiquitous these days. For eg. "Parvatha" sung as "Pazhvatha". Even singers known for their authentic delivery seem to fall prey to this.

Is this because the hard "r" is thought to be less musical? Or is this some kind of punjabi envy?

Is it time we hold up placards to protest this type of slurring?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 19 Jan 2015, 15:49

Suresh, It may have something to do with thin crust pizza that a lot of musicians from the south enjoy.
Seriously, somebody like Keerthi will have to upload on You Tube some pronunciation lessons. There are several issues from Alpa, Maha,
A, R, Ru, S, Z, s, Na, La etc. etc. If you have to hold up placards we will have to have a 52 card deck sponsored by RMKV or Nalli or McDowell's

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 19 Jan 2015, 17:33

sureshvv Sir,
Your observation that tolerance factor of Gurus and Rasikas is mainly responsible. We have been thought that 'apa shabda' is as serious lapse as 'apa shruti'. If you notice the intolerance for such lapses in film music-its lyricists and music composers. Play back singers take extra care to avoid such lapses. It is also disconcerting to notice and point out that very same play back singer(s) committing mistakes when they sing Karnatic Music composition(s). When such lapses are given identity of 'style' and popularity, the artists do not care. They indulge, carefree.
Artists must realize and respect the 'Vak' and 'Geyakara' parts of Vaggeyakara-consisting of both 'Kavi Hridaya' and 'Sangita Hridaya'. With this deeply felt respect, artists do give great attention.

munirao2001

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 Jan 2015, 22:19

Suresh, rolling of the R sound IMO is nothing compared to the sAhitya kolai that many routinely indulge in..we can debate the issue all we want....but, I'm not sure we'll get anywhere!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 19 Jan 2015, 22:25

Ravi: You hit the nail on the head. Instead of enjoying the music and melody, always the grape is sour

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jan 2015, 22:35

Sahitya kolai is an ongoing crime & I am quite prepared mentally to deal with it, being a perp myself

But this new thing is ticking me off. May be it is the overseas trips but one should not sing like you are at the immigration desk

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Jan 2015, 23:52

I realize that some american children have this problem. Yet, some that I hear in Cleveland are (may I say?) better than some kids from India.

Sureshvv,
On thing which may remedy this: for them to listen to DKP's music a lot. azhutham thirutham (emphatic and no fudging at all)! DKP sometimes underlined her 'r's even more.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Jan 2015, 00:13

rshankar wrote:Suresh, rolling of the R sound IMO is nothing compared to the sAhitya kolai that many routinely indulge in..we can debate the issue all we want....but, I'm not sure we'll get anywhere!

Both are bad and requite attention by the artists. I recall we have talked about Ravi's pet-peeve, that there is this hierarchy of Kolais, that pointing out Kolai of Tamil by non tamilians need to come after Tamil artists clean up their kolai of non-Tamil lyrics

While I think all Kolais are equal, for me Kolai of Tamil lyrics is that much more jarring than that of non-tamil lyrics due to my blissful ignorance of the latter. Similarly, here, the rolling 'r' may be more jarring no matter what indian language it is because it will stand out.

Having said that, Suzhesh: I have not noticed this phenomenon. Do you hear this often? You do not need to name names if you do not want to, but give us other examples of words that are subjected to this (in addition to parvata that you already mentioned... My mind is now playing the perfect 'Parvata rajakumari' by TNS..

makham · Post by **makham** » 20 Jan 2015, 10:57

"sakala suraasurar" sung like "sakala suzhaasuzhazh" in the Papanasam Sivan Kharaharapriya song "Ganapatiye Karunanidhiye"

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 20 Jan 2015, 14:50

@arasi: This is not about american kids... These are leading CM artistes who grew up in Chennai. I agree that DKP/Nityashree are good role models for pronunciation (Tamil and Sanskrit).

@vk.. I am going to keep closer watch and make notes and may even name names

@makham: Where did you hear this abomination?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 20 Jan 2015, 16:20

SureshVV, I have to give you a statutory warning. You are beginning to form some stripes and grow a long and malicious tail. In other words a territorial transgressor on Harimau land.

My heart bleeds to tell you that a very famous lady musician, multifaceted, multi-gurued, and simply brilliant in many ways, once mispronounced a word in Vasudevachar's Pranamamyaham. Instead of phaNihAra-bhUSitaM she said paNihAra-bhakSitaM. I am sure many would have been imagining Ganesha putting down the modakam and picking up paniharam for his snack with coffee.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 20 Jan 2015, 19:27

1. Thank you for the advance notice. Will not transgress.

2. An occasional sahitya flub, although hugely more embarrassing, is in a different league altogether. The "phoren" pronunciation is more insidious.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Jan 2015, 20:16

That explains why I can't 'deal' with a TV serial I may chance upon when the TV is on where I am visiting. Also what I come across when I flick channels to find a CM program.

The accent and intonation, I find alien to thamizh.Has it made its impact on the young who sing? Any relevance in that observation? A stilted accent, and an intonation which does not sound anything like thamizh, plus the american influence??

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Jan 2015, 20:52

Oh, hopefully not Arasi, not that artificial accent and intonation of speaking Tamil on TV. Since no one talks like that in real life, I assume that it is intentionally done so for showbiz purposes. Fine, if that is what sells and what people want ( really? ) but it will be laughable if somehow that seeps into real life. Fortunately, the announcer for a few CM related programs I heard was not as bad. Like the interview program with Sikkil Mala and Amrutha Venkatesh etc. that was a topic of discussion a few months back.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 20 Jan 2015, 22:13

sureshvv wrote:@arasi: This is not about american kids... These are leading CM artistes who grew up in Chennai. I agree that DKP/Nityashree are good role models for pronunciation (Tamil and Sanskrit).

Respectfully disagree - tamizh - absolutely 'YES'...sanskRt requires clear distinction of k and kh (and not just k and g) and so on. Very, very few singers are able to do that...after Smt. MSS, IMO Smt. Gayathri Girish is one who consistently pronounces the words correctly. Many of the others may pronounce it properly in the opening sangati, but not thereafter...How can you, if the lyrics are written down in tamizh by a majority of the singers?

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 20 Jan 2015, 22:43

Anything with "R" including Rupee

seems to be problem for C.Musician. In the recent "Voice Search" competition held jointly by Sruti-TAG Group-Dr Sundar & his team one of the participants kept on singing "Re" like Hindustani Singers in place of "Ri". Infact she sang "Purya Dhanshri" ragam & "Pantuvarali" kriti. One of the popular young artists sings "Karporam NaRRRRumo" song with so much azhutham of Narrrumo, my wife said the way he sings one would think Karpooram stinks.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 20 Jan 2015, 23:57

KNV1955 wrote: One of the popular young artists sings "Karporam NaRRRRumo" song with so much azhutham of Narrrumo, my wife said the way he sings one would think Karpooram stinks.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Jan 2015, 08:10

sanskRt requires clear distinction of k and kh (and not just k and g)
How can you, if the lyrics are written down in tamizh by a majority of the singers?

Yes, that is indeed the problem. I have seen transliteration schemes where they put a number next to the letter to indicate the voiced, voiceless, unaspirated and aspirated variations. Like the one Sri. Govindan uses. For example,

க4னமைன 1ஸி1வுனி சாபமு த்3ருஞ்சின
பாத3முனு ஜூசுனதெ3ன்னடிகோ 2ஆ

I guess that is the best one can do with tamil script. One still needs a good grasp on pronouncing the aspirated consonants (ph, bh, th, dh, kh, gh,etc) since they don't exist in Tamil. The Sanskrit words for them give an intuitive indication for how to make those sounds. alpa-prANa and mahA-prANa

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Jan 2015, 09:23

Yes, kudos to Govindan for keeping to the old, sensible way of numbering meticulously each sound. All the dedication and time that has gone into his hard work! It makes it all so easy for aspirants to sing the words correctly.

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 21 Jan 2015, 10:36

rshankar wrote:Respectfully disagree - tamizh - absolutely 'YES'...sanskRt requires clear distinction of k and kh (and not just k and g) and so on. Very, very few singers are able to do that...after Smt. MSS, IMO Smt. Gayathri Girish is one who consistently pronounces the words correctly. Many of the others may pronounce it properly in the opening sangati, but not thereafter...How can you, if the lyrics are written down in tamizh by a majority of the singers?

Sometimes, as a Tamil speaker, I find a problem of opposite nature: too much Sanskritized pronunciation in a supposedly Tamil kriti/ song.

I find a Gen next singer with impeccable Sanskrit pronunciation, including good k-kh differentiation (IMHO), sticking to chaste Sanskrit pronunciation even when the words occur in the midst of a Tamil kriti. I assume he writes down his lyrics (only) in Roman script.

Even the venerable MS amma sings "Bharata nambikku anRu aDinilai eendaanai paaDippaRa" whereas my Madurai-raised Tamil ear

longs to hear it as "barada nambikku anRu"

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 21 Jan 2015, 11:52

Well the problem is that of the Language torchbearers itself. I don't find a phonetics in tamil ever standardized.

There are English dictionaries that steer clear off many intricacies and regional complex nuances , slangs, formal , archaic, speciliazed, literal .

My kannada friend read thiruvalluvar as dhiruvalluvar ( he reads tamil and I shoudl appreciate it). How can I prove him that it is not. Kinaru or Ginaru? Pandham, Bandham what does it mean both? Though it is derived when we use the comman Pa which does not have a standard reference to go back to if queried.

And most folks cannot even pronounce zha , how can they even sing it. But, even the rikshawalla in South Arcot can pronounce zha , while some learned are finding it difficult.

I vividly remember my dear friend from Madurai saying " Mala thanni otta valiya keela oluvudhu. Not one Madurai friend but many from Madurai with the sloppy la . How many can even differentiate vallinam and mellinam as such? It is just that they do not lay emphasis on the point itself. You remember the therukkovile odivaa by KJY which created a furor and later we went on to accept the Udit ..(ubayam ARR who imported all the super accents). Though deviating i am , we accept when sth gets famous and to become famous you don't have to be always good.

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 21 Jan 2015, 14:20

You miss the point, g_m. Standardization or not, there cannot be kh, gh, bh sounds in Tamil. One can dispute if something should sound as pa or ba, ta or da.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 21 Jan 2015, 14:40

How about a famous sing(e)r(ess) singing Kuzhaloshshai ketkudhamma. Enna thavam Shshsheidhanai....
everytime the sa is converted to sha intentionally rather. I find that gross too. Tamish should not have Sha too.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Jan 2015, 15:52

The Sa as in darSan, shyAm becoming sha (as in ushA) as you say, is annoying.

Adding to this, there are other instances which belong to the hazy zone: nadarAjan does not sit well with me in a song. Habit?

As for zha, for ages, we have heard the La substitution, and it doesn't bother me (except when in gets misleading in meaning).

Another one is 'naNRi' instead of nanRi.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 21 Jan 2015, 17:00

I have heard some tamilians saying the word 'varNam ' as 'vazhNam'.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 21 Jan 2015, 17:45

pazhshu = old.
adhu pazhshu = that is old.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 21 Jan 2015, 19:14

PUNARVASU wrote:I have heard some tamilians saying the word 'varNam ' as 'vazhNam'

Were they speaking in English or Tamil?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 21 Jan 2015, 19:31

ganesh_mourthy wrote:How about a famous sing(e)r(ess) singing Kuzhaloshshai ketkudhamma. Enna thavam Shshsheidhanai....

It used to bother me too a lot more but I have evolved in that regard to tolerate some variations due to accent & district of origin, especially after I noticed that the gifted artistes vary the pronunciation themselves depending on the target audience.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 21 Jan 2015, 19:41

yes, but , that was in a CD Album. Light singing genre. Carnatic Musician though.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 21 Jan 2015, 20:04

Sureshvv, they are tamilians living here and speaking in tamizh!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Jan 2015, 06:31

Here is a difficult one to decide. Let me not mention the name of the artist so as to not distract from the main point of the discussion. In a Tamil song, the famous song is sung as 'kanindu varum pashu pOl' . I know the sanskrit pronounciation is indeed pashu (पशु) but in a tamil song, it attracts too much attention to itself if pronounced as pashu instead of pasu that we are used to.

Also, I see people write Shahana. Is it Shahana or Sahana?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jan 2015, 08:38

Have heard northerners say shahAnA.

Yes, sa is a tricky one. That is, sa to sha range. Try this: catch yourself saying a word with the variation possibilities. We say it in slight variations, mostly because we have registered the words that way through the years--from childhood, specially. You may also hear the same singer singing the word differently at different times.

Why? Even with cha and sa sounds. Take chittam eppaDiyO? for instance: If it's the start of a line, you will most probably hear it sung a chittam. may be not with a word in the middle of a line. Take ambaramE (easy to sing--haven't heard anyone sing it as amparame!). But SorE (sORE?) is an iffy.

chollach cholla or solla solla? My preference (ha!) is chollach cholla!

The sha for softer sound is indeed irritating. Especially when a singer is softly singing (mouthing) the words!

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 22 Jan 2015, 09:33

My name, Shankar, is frequently turned into Sankar. I frequently hear my Houston Tamil class young students say Ra (ற) instead of zha (ழ.) A famous carnatic musician sings "Thirukkul" (திருக்குரலிலே) instead of "ThirukkuRaL" (திருக்குறளிலே) in "Thunbam Nergaiyil." As a Tamil enthusiast, I used to get upset, but, wisdom comes with age, so, now I mostly cringe and let it go. As the good Carnatic musician may be interpreting, when faced with grief, may be we all are better off hearing the Tamil sage ThiruvaLLuvar sing in his sweet voice, rather than reading his short verse! This is one reason why I like to listen to Sanjay singing in Tamil, as he seem to research before performing on stage.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Jan 2015, 11:08

PUNARVASU wrote:Sureshvv, they are tamilians living here and speaking in tamizh!

That was the damage I was afraid of. Now hoping it won't creep into their singing.

@arasi: To echo what Ravi said earlier, Gayathri Girish is one artiste who makes all the right choices for sa, sha, s'a etc. both in Tamil and Sanskrit when singing Carnatic Music.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jan 2015, 11:50

Yes, she has sung the thirteen songs on the CD, and some other songs of mine in concerts so, which is a pleasure to listen too. Sumitra Nitin has to be complimented for her clarity also.

And Suryaprakash? Of course!

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 22 Jan 2015, 20:17

vasanthakokilam wrote:Here is a difficult one to decide. Let me not mention the name of the artist so as to not distract from the main point of the discussion. In a Tamil song, the famous song is sung as 'kanindu varum pashu pOl' . I know the sanskrit pronounciation is indeed pashu (पशु) but in a tamil song, it attracts too much attention to itself if pronounced as pashu instead of pasu that we are used to.

As long as they don't say Pa(soo) pOl it is ok. Modern Tamizh pronunciation is Pasoo not Pasu

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jan 2015, 21:48

KNV,

I like your humorous take on this subject. While we all get a bit ticked off at times by these, our sense of humor does come to the rescue!

Should i say, 'naNRi'?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 23 Jan 2015, 00:20

shankar vaidyanathan wrote:My name, Shankar

And mine too...and (apologies for hijacking a thread about r, R, and zh) here is a funny story (I have shared it with a few before):
Many years ago (too many, if you ask me), when my whole class was getting ready to receive our degrees from Madras University, we were asked to write out our names in english and tamizh (the Degree has two parts - the first in tamizh and the lower part in english) - so, I filled out my paper and handed it to the Registrar's office - the plan was for the Registrar's staff to collect all our responses and send them by courier to Madras. But before they sent them, they had to make sure that the names were written correctly, to ensure that were no discrepancies between our 'Official' names in the college roster and the degree certificate...when they came to my response, they went crazy, and I was summoned urgently to the Registrar's office, because I had my name written as follows in tamizh: ரவி ஷங்கர் and the guys there were having a cow, because it had to be written as ரவி சங்கர் according to them. I told them that I had no intention of being a 'chankar' (or worse, chancre!), or 'sankar'... I said that my name was ऱवि शंकर, but I did not mind it being pronounced as ऱवि षंकर, and so wanted to use ரவி ஷங்கர். They were relentless and kept saying that 'it's our language, we know what we are talking about, and you can't go about creating new rules'...and, I kept telling them, 'it may be your language, but it's my name, and I get to say how it is written'...fortunately, the Registrar (who was called to arbitrate) agreed with me, and accpeted my entry...so, I currenlty hold a degree from Madras University with my name written as ரவி ஷங்கர்!!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jan 2015, 00:32

- But it could have been worse you know. They could have insisted that it ought be இரவி சங்கர் !

Arun

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 23 Jan 2015, 08:33

rshankar wrote:
shankar vaidyanathan wrote:My name, Shankar
And mine too...and (apologies for hijacking a thread about r, R, and zh) here is a funny story (I have shared it with a few before):
Many years ago (too many, if you ask me), when my whole class was getting ready to receive our degrees from Madras University, we were asked to write out our names in english and tamizh (the Degree has two parts - the first in tamizh and the lower part in english) - so, I filled out my paper and handed it to the Registrar's office - the plan was for the Registrar's staff to collect all our responses and send them by courier to Madras. But before they sent them, they had to make sure that the names were written correctly, to ensure that were no discrepancies between our 'Official' names in the college roster and the degree certificate...when they came to my response, they went crazy, and I was summoned urgently to the Registrar's office, because I had my name written as follows in tamizh: ரவி ஷங்கர் and the guys there were having a cow, because it had to be written as ரவி சங்கர் according to them. I told them that I had no intention of being a 'chankar' (or worse, chancre!), or 'sankar'... I said that my name was ऱवि शंकर, but I did not mind it being pronounced as ऱवि षंकर, and so wanted to use ரவி ஷங்கர். They were relentless and kept saying that 'it's our language, we know what we are talking about, and you can't go about creating new rules'...and, I kept telling them, 'it may be your language, but it's my name, and I get to say how it is written'...fortunately, the Registrar (who was called to arbitrate) agreed with me, and accpeted my entry...so, I currenlty hold a degree from Madras University with my name written as ரவி ஷங்கர்!!

South Indians historically have written the name as 'Sankar' and not as 'Shankar'.

I don't see why you feel your tradition is inferior to the North Indian tradition of writing the name as 'Shankar'.

Anyway, that initial letter is neither 'Sa' nor 'Sha'.

So one can argue indefinitely which is the correct transliteration of that letter till the cows come home.... In the case of North Indians, till the buffaloes come home -- after all they are addicted to buffalo milk which is a strict no-no in South Indian households as our mothers believed that it dulls the intellect.

Why someone should feel inferior to those people of the North is best left to psychologists.

PS. When Lord Mountbatten was given a list of important persons to be invited to attend the India Independence celebrations, all names were prefixed with 'Shri'. Mountbatten corrected those from Andhra to 'Sree' and from Tamil Nadu to 'Sri' and sent the list back to be re-typed. Clearly, he was not intimidated by anything.

PPS. There is a letter in the extended Tamil alphabet to denote the 'Sa' in 'Sankar'.

PPPS. In case somebody takes offence at this post, the moderator can go ahead and delete it.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 23 Jan 2015, 09:05

It has sense and no offence. N.Indians write 't' for த and 'th for 'ட' sound. Nowhere is English t is soft (த), and nowhere except in Thames, th is hard (ட). In some words t is pronounced like ch, but not as த. N.Indians are less familiar with English than S.Indians generally.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 23 Jan 2015, 09:24

Tamil versions of a few prominent names !

டிளக் - திலகர்
ஆட்வாணீ - அத்வானி
ஆம்பேட்கர் - அம்பேத்கர்
மோதீ - மோடி
கொடாரீ - கோத்தாரி

Name / Tamil version:-

THiLak - tilakar
ADvANI - advAni
AmbEDkar - ambEtkar
mOdI - mODi
koTHArI - kOttAri

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Jan 2015, 09:57

N.Indians write 't' for த

That always confused me but fortunately context usually resolves it. Why the elder Mangeshkar is Lata and not Latha? When my north indian friend wondered the reverse why south indians use 'th', I go ''It goes like this my dear friend from the Nort' !!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 23 Jan 2015, 10:05

Pratyaksham Bala: The Thamizh transliteration follows the way we write Thamizh to English. I say, Hindu, Hindi and Modi and am unrepentant about it.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 24 Jan 2015, 01:45

Inference of inferiority where none exists is probably a problem beyond the ken of psychologists or psychiatrists!

And it's not an issue of buffalo milk, or tiget milk, or even yeti milk - it was just an attempt to make sure that my name is written in a way I'd like it to be pronounced.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Jan 2015, 11:10

PBala,
eNNaik kETTaL eNNa soLLa? (does it mean, what can I tell her/him when asked? OR, if someone asks for oil, I'd say, oil is not to be found fault with...)

Harimau,
Till buffaloes come home...

Ravi,
In my books, you have the freedom to say anything about this because no one else spends such enormous number of hours on doing the service of beautifully translating hundreds of songs for those who do not know tamizh (including some tamizhar!).

KVChellappa,
You are in the same category as helpers in spreading tamizh with your translations.

VK,
Yes, confusion is the word!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 25 Jan 2015, 07:23

rshankar wrote: it was just an attempt to make sure that my name is written in a way I'd like it to be pronounced.

With that statement, you have demonstrated that you don't know how your name should be pronounced.

You might as well change it to "Bunker".

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Jan 2015, 08:06

harimau wrote:With that statement, you have demonstrated that you don't know how your name should be pronounced.

You might as well change it to "Bunker".

Whatever floats your boat!

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 25 Jan 2015, 09:31

The International Phonetic Alphabet is a much refined tool for transcription.transliteration with English alphabet is an approximate tool which could lead to gross errors as for example in the transcription of the song sArasa dala nayanE.If the tamil script of that TAMIL song had been found its English translation would have been much simpler.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 25 Jan 2015, 10:11

There are certain conventions adopted from yore. In Tamil, Siva is written as சிவ only. This is nothing new. The famous mantra 'OM namaSSivAya' has been rendered by Tamil Saints - as 'ஓம் நமச்சிவாய'. Therefore, while one may have right to have one's name pronounced the way he/she likes it, it is appropriate to follow the existing custom. ச appearing as initial letter of Tamil words, is never pronounced as 'cha' - it is always pronounced as 'sa' only. Grantha letter for 'S' is an adoption for rendering Sanskirt transliteration of Slokas. It is not part of standard Tamil alphabets. What is the necessity to adopt this letter overriding the tranditional use?

This subject of pronouncing 'S' by Tamil musicians has been discussed ad nauseam. There can be no exception that Tamilians (musicians) should pronounce it as per norms of Tamil Nadu (not Government norms - social norms). It is only because of such unnecessary provocations, that Brahmin community is drawn into controversy over Carnatic Music.