gamakakriyA

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 18 Jul 2008, 13:07

I would appreciate help in clarifying an issue I am confused about:

In the CAC archival centre write-up on pUvikalyAni [http://www.carnatica.net/newsletter/poorvakalyani.htm], I quote the following statements attributed to Dr. Srivatsa, "Subbarama Dikshitar has not described vakratva, in the Arohana, which he states as sa-ri-ga-ma-pa-dha-sa. Pa-dha-pa-sa was a safety rote prescribed and propagated by an unidentified noble musicologist and musician. God bless him! This proves that Poorva Kalyani is not equal to Gamakakriya. Knowledgeable and high-class artistes should not use â€œpa-dha-pa-saâ€

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 18 Jul 2008, 15:46

i'm afraid i'm only going to muddy the waters further - Salem Chellam Iyengar's book on kritis by Sriman Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar has a section on raga lakshnas obtained from Poochi Iyengar's manuscripts wherein the aarohana of purvikalyani is given as s r g m p d n p d p s*. Though not readily apparent in the kriti, the chittaiswaram for parama pavana rama clearly reveals this sanchara (3rd avartana) and is sung as such by musicians from various schools. While i'm not sure whether Dikshitar ever composed a chittaiswaram for Meenakshi memudam dehi, Brindamma does sing one that incorporates the g m p d n p d p phrase. my question (to add to prashant's query) is how then does purvikalyani exactly differ from gamakakriya?

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 19 Jul 2008, 19:29

- An earlier pre-trinity composition exists with the said prayoga (ie Sonti Venkatasubbayya's varnam)
- SD gives the Arohana without pdps and then goes on to mention that gamakakriya is also known as purvikalyani
- Purvikalyani is a more recent in origin and hence mentioned only in later works like SC

So Gamakakriya existed with a p d p s prayoga. Soon afterward the name Purvikalyani was defined and people used the nomenclature and composed in it. A few decades later when the arohana fixing happened in Subbarama Dikshitar's time and he found another raga in use with a similar name - there arose a need and effort to particularize each raga based on study of uruppadis in them. Perhaps some musicians decided to differentiate them with the added caveat of p d p s as a distinguishing factor while others chose to ignore this as a minor point of non-relevance. A few others perhaps considered it as a special prayoga to be sparingly used and hence SD did not see it fit to include in the Arohana but retain it as a phrase occurring in a composition.

I think it is just one of the many cases of the difference between Shastra and Prayoga in Carnatic music primarily arising out of the burgeoning raga names in the last couple of centuries and the penchant to particularize and differentiate the older raga after the arrival of a more or less identical raga in the scene.

So the answer to the difference between purvikalyani and gamakakriya depends on which text and school of thought you owe allegiance to. Personally as long as the phrase pdps is kept alive in Sonti Venkatasubbayya's varnam - I am happy.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 19 Jul 2008, 22:51

Thanks Vidya

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 20 Jul 2008, 08:48

Thanks Vidya for your erudite and enlightening answer. Which is the earlier composition that you refer to?

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 20 Jul 2008, 16:41

Jayachamaraja Wodeyar's composition in Gamakakriya Nilakantham uses P-D-S prayoga.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 20 Jul 2008, 20:21

Also, the gamakriyA varNam has phrases like srsn-srgm that include a sns which are not found in pUrvIkalyANI.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 20 Jul 2008, 22:40

Veena Krishnamacharya (younger brother of Tiger Varadacharya) in his adi tala varnam â€œgaaravinchi yelukonduvaniâ€

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 21 Jul 2008, 09:57

Prashant & Others,
Here is a sampling of the grand Gamakakriya varnam in question that is being discussed - rendered by Prof.SRJ. GamakaKriya Varnam. Accompanists and other details from where this has been sourced may be found here - thanks to Bharathwaj's blog! Details

Shyamalajr · Post by **Shyamalajr** » 31 Jul 2008, 10:25

Can we summarize as follows
1. It is established that p d p s was a known prayoga of Gamakakriya in Pre-trinity days
2. The name Purvikalyani is of recent origin compared to Gamakakriya
3. While singing Purvikalyani p d p s phrase is usually emphasized
4. The issue is whether 'Purvikalyani' is 'Gamakakriya Version 2.0' or is it to be considered as a separate ragam

My question is " Are there one or more phrases in Purvikalyani' that are invalid in Gamakakriya ?
if the answer is an emphatic 'YES" Purvikalyani can be considered a separate rAga.

I was recently listening to Sanjay's rendering of 'EkAmranAtham bhajEham' in 'Gamakakriya' and I found that he has carefully avoided the use of p d p s phrase in the AlApana and Kalpana swarA.
Does this mean that Gamakakriya and Purvikalyani are different or was he just being faithful to the rAga as depicted in the Composition .

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Jul 2014, 23:34

Sachi/Varsha (or anyone else) - in all the recordings of mInAkshi mE mudam dEhi you have listened to (with the bar set by Smt. MSS obviously), have you come across one with a nereval at 'mIna lOcani pASa mOcini...'?

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 04 Jul 2014, 00:05

rshankar wrote:Sachi/Varsha (or anyone else) - in all the recordings of mInAkshi mE mudam dEhi you have listened to (with the bar set by Smt. MSS obviously), have you come across one with a nereval at 'mIna lOcani pASa mOcini...'?

Vid. Seetha Rajan(more on madura puri nilaye i guess! but still nevertheless) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Z6T6Z ... =1#t=1h21m

Cheers
Venkat
PS: OF course personally really embarrassed when we see such poor quality audio that we used to stream! But then i guess you folks were pretty forgiving then with us

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Jul 2014, 07:19

Ravi,
mInAkShI mE mudam...what a song. I have heard it from stalwarts like MDR and KVN to Abhishek and Ramakrishnan Murthy render it.
After my visit to the Temple in Oct 2013, I am able to enjoy the words even more...a lot more...
I can't recall exactly who has sung it with niraval at mInalOcanI...in fact in our Rasaanveshanam concert Abhishek gave a blockbuster rendering but I can't recall the niraval point..perhaps it was vInAgAna...

I feel mInalOcanI is associated so much with the moment of passing of Sri Dikshitar that people would like to sing it with a degree of adoration, feeling, and not labour the musical moment. Also the words being at the higher swara and in the second speed do not lend themselves to the stretching and singing across the scale very well. Of course I am an ignoramus and someone could answer this better.

There is a dancer from Kalakshetra (contemporary of my sis in law) NAVTEJ JOHAR who performs to this song. It is his speciality and he comes across as a profound Devi Upasaka in the piece, there is a YT clip. It doesn't do justice to the mood he creates in the audience. After seeing him dance, my daughter has been mining public domain sources for a really great rendering of mInAkShI..not even the MSS version has cut it with her

That is the power of these compositions.
They have ETERNAL glory and appeal.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Jul 2014, 07:25

Just hearing Madurai Mani Iyer render this song....what a musician... One such will come in a thousand years.
He is doing niraval at madhurApurinilaye. His singing is so profound that the accompanists appear mesmerised.

THANKS VKV SIR!!!

braindrain · Post by **braindrain** » 04 Jul 2014, 10:30

Rsachi wrote: I can't recall exactly who has sung it with niraval at mInalOcanI...in fact in our Rasaanveshanam concert Abhishek gave a blockbuster rendering but I can't recall the niraval point..perhaps it was vInAgAna...

Abhishek did his neraval at 'madhu mita mOdita..'

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Jul 2014, 10:49

She is intoxicated with delight by partaking of honey...

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Jul 2014, 11:39

If people wonder how the goddess can get intoxicated, please read this from Lalitha sahasranama :

(510)
Madhu means honey. Kākinī is fond of honey. Madhu also means liquor (liquor also refers to the liquid in which vegetables or meat have been cooked) obviously indicating that Kākinī is fond of this kind of liquor.
In fire rituals to appease certain goddesses, along with ghee (clarified butter), honey and milk are also mixed in small quantities. Offering honey to goddesses is also referred in the Veda-s.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 04 Jul 2014, 11:55

RSach
Thanks for the efforts on rasikas 5 choice compilation.
On Meenakshi Me Mudam Dehi, very regrettably the composition is rendered in madhyama kalam, even by the Great Maestros, including MMI, taking away the meditative quality in this one of the great composition. To my knowledge, only Tiger school and Dhanammal school render them in the original vilambakalam. A request to forunites, please do not pay attention to the musicologist myth making, but to enjoy the raaga bhava, saahithya bhava and kalapramana (gaja gamaka kriya) to experience the real perception of beauty and bliss in this composition in vilambakalam.

munirao2001

gmohan · Post by **gmohan** » 04 Jul 2014, 17:08

Rsachi wrote:Just hearing Madurai Mani Iyer render this song....what a musician... One such will come in a thousand years.
He is doing niraval at madhurApurinilaye. His singing is so profound that the accompanists appear mesmerised.

THANKS VKV SIR!!!

Rsachi

Here is one more purvikalyani from MMI, I haven't heard a more joyous rendition of the raga!!

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/07zors0 ... am_MMI.mp3

parivadini · Post by **parivadini** » 04 Jul 2014, 19:04

gmohan wrote:
Here is one more purvikalyani from MMI, I haven't heard a more joyous rendition of the raga!!

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/07zors0 ... am_MMI.mp3

Phenomenal, thanks for the share...

Venkat

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 04 Jul 2014, 20:32

Sachi,
There are two errors in the kRti - it should be 'Siva jAyE' (not SivajyAyE) and 'madhurApuri' (not madurapuri)

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 04 Jul 2014, 21:47

You're right.
This is PP Narayanaswami's book.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 05 Jul 2014, 11:09

On 'Meenakshi Me Mudam', Mudduswamy Dikshita composed in the raaga 'Gamakakriya' of Venkatamakhi Mela system. I do not have information when this composition was changed to poorvikalyani of Govindamatya Mela System and by whom? If any forunites is having this information, please let me know.

munirao2001

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 05 Jul 2014, 18:37

@ munirao2001 I do not have an answer for your question, but I can say that Gamakriya (atleast the name) itself is a later addition. Venkatamakhin in his treatise describes only 19 melas (and its janyas). Gamakriya or any other equivalent to that cannot be seen there.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Jul 2014, 20:47

bhakthim dehi, there is a dhruva tala Gita in gamakakriya attributed to Venkatamakhin in the SSP. Is that the latter Venkatamakhin and not the one you mention?

Munirao, consider the following and see if we really need to make a distinction between gamakakriya and purvikalyani.

Subbarama Dikshithar lists 'minAkshi' under gamakakriya but then says 'This
gamakakriya raga is also known as purvikalyani' ( I am assuming that comment is by Subbarama Dkishthar and not the editors of the english edition of SSP )

Let us look at lakshana and lakshaya aspects.

He defines gamakakriya as a raga without ni in the arohana. I see purvikalani arohana with P D P S . But PDPS is itself is derivable from the non-vakra definition of the arohana.

It will be interesting to know when the vakram got introduced into the arohana definition of PK and why.

But syntax does not a raga maketh of course, let us look at prayogas. The prayogas provided by SD does not include that vakra prayoga PDPS but then he urges us to figure out the rest from the compositions.

A quick scan of the lakshana geeta does not include that phrase.

Does Meenakshi include PDPS phrase? Yes, it does as per the SSP notation. The second line of the anupallavi in '...siva jAyE'.
And it has PDS as well. ( sumdarEsapriyE in the charanam)

Given all this, does it matter if it is called gamakakriya or purvikalyani?

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 05 Jul 2014, 22:19

Vasanthakokilam, the authorship of many geethams given in the SSP, with the name Venkatamakhin is always debatable. Its of general opinion that Venkatamakhi mention names like Govinda and Nagamamba (name of his parents) in his compositions which are said to be authentic. Examples include Atulita, a geetham in Reethigowlai (govindhadhvarina nagambambika nandana venkatamakhi), Umatilaka prabhandam in Mechabowli (govindamakhi nagambika sutha venkata), Kaivara prabhandam in Narayanagowli (govindavari nagambika sutha venkatamakhi). All these ragas were mentioned in his treatise Chaturdandi prakashika!!!!
Now, its up to us to judge.

maduraimini · Post by **maduraimini** » 05 Jul 2014, 23:32

gmohan,

Thanks for MMI's 'Intha paramuga'. I don't remember hearing him sing this. It was wonderful ! Sounds like he sang this in his younger years. Thanks for posting this.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 08 Jul 2014, 12:55

Bhaktim dehi, vk, munirao,

I have a bit to say about the prevalent versions of pUrvakalyaNi. There a few sancAras that I understand as being definitive of purvakalyANi that have now almost disappeared from the rAgas, as it is sung and played by (most) contemporary musicians. At the same time, new sancAras and sancAras that were probably meant to be rare sancAras occupy a position of pride. Fortunately we have excellent compositions like ninnu vinAga mari, mInAksi, paripUrNakAma, ekkAlattilum and the magnificent varNam of SonTi venkataramanayya as a robust lakshya substratum to understand it.

We could move to the gamakakriya/ purvakalyani thread, and resume this discussion??

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 08 Jul 2014, 13:23

Keerthi
Please give some audio with links at least for a lay person like me to understand what is the real face of Purvi Kalyani and what has changed.
I can reasonably well recognize the presentday PK within 4-6 seconds of presentation. If that is an imposter, I would like to see the asli chehra please, with your help!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 08 Jul 2014, 14:28

Keerthi
Myself and R.K.Srikantan Sir were listening to the tillanas of Veene Seshanna at the Gayana Samaja, a special program commemorating the Vaggeyakara's Day. We realized the raga svaroopam of those times and the later times have changed so much. Written music came in to being much later and the karna parampara system of preservation of music is bound to have both positive and negative sides. While the Bani was traceable to a Guru, a school of music or a region of a patanthara, the styles with no respect for the patanthara, is bound to have differences both in the raaga and sangati ornamentation. With few exceptions, the tradition being the body and works of excellence, we have a heritage, unparalleled in the world music. Research, not a hearsay or statements, must be done on the raaga development history for the knowledge of the treasures lost and found.
Back to Poorvi kalyani and Gamaka Kriya, I just wanted to inform about its history. Leaving aside mythical stories of 'Meenakshi me mudam dehim', let us continue to enjoy the full majesty of poorvi kalyani in this composition revealed in its original vilambakala, not in the madhyamakala (only giving the glimpses of the original beauty) even if it is handled by Great Maestros like ARI, GNB or MMI.

munirao2001

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 08 Jul 2014, 15:41

Keerthi
That's not only with purvikalyani, many ragas have faced this kind of metamorphosis. I think it will of some use if we can start a special thread for this

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Jul 2014, 21:03

As per request, I have moved the gamakakriya/purvikalyani discussions from http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23724

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 08 Jul 2014, 23:54

Dear RSachi,
YOUR REFERENCES TO MMI & SOMU(in Parvathi concert article) MOVE ME BEYOND DESCRIPTION.
In my opinion MEENAKSHI MEYMUDAM RENDERINGS ARE THE BEST BY the MAESTROS FROM MADURAI-MMI, MSS & MADURAI SOMU-& I have discussed at length ( my good fortune& luck!) the pLace for Niraval & both mss& somu marvelled at MMI'S RENDERING ESP. NIRAVAL LOCATION! MMI also marvelled at MMS& SOMU RENDERINGS......I just wish to point out that B.V.K.Sastry ( the most knowledgeable critic of our times) that MMI'S background& rendering of Dhikshithar is the most authentic (tho' MMI was very careful to point out that DKP&DKJ were experts & S.Rajam also had learnt from Ambi Dhikshithar).
Incidentally SOMU'S PARVATHI CONCERT IS THE BEST EXAMPLE IN EVERY RESPECT for my contention that THE BEST CONCERTS OF STALWARTS TOOK PLACE OUTSIDE OF MADRAS! Even the choice of accompanists like Chalakkudi& Upendran not to mention the compositions& how they were rendered are PERFECT EXAMPLES!......VKV :-BD :ymapplause:

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 09 Jul 2014, 14:29

cacm

Quote "I just wish to point out that B.V.K.Sastry ( the most knowledgeable critic of our times) that MMI'S background& rendering of Dhikshithar is the most authentic". SSRao/DKP/BRI/KS(Kalpagam Swaminathan) learnt from T.L.Venkata Rama Iyer, Authority on Mudduswamy Dikshita, a direct sishya parampara. All of them meticulously followed the patantharam, patantharam in vilamba kaalam. MMI/GNB/ARI were rendering Dikshita compositions in madhyama kaalam, which suits their voice and styles but in deviation. The very soul of visradhi in both the raaga and saahithya bhaavam in this composition was lost. MMI was honest and correct. BVK Sastry was wrong.
This is one perfect case on the effect of style affecting the pataanthara. Rasikas, with idolization, hailing the version as the best! This is how the quality in Karnatik Music suffers.

munirao2001

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 09 Jul 2014, 22:43

Dear Sri.Muni rao,
Ambi Dhikshithar was the great grandson of M.D. The question of PADANTHARAM is a questionable one as there are NO written records from the composerI S.Rajam learnt from Ambi D & MMI did learn from T.L.Vekatarama Iyer & S.R. DID LOT OF RESEARCH ALSO.This BOGEY MAN ARGUMENT ABOUT VILAMBAKALAM VS SOME OTHER KALAM IS NOT VERY MEANINGFUL. Each artist renders at pretty much suited to render at their comfort level.As matter of fact MMI tho' he rendered Vathaphi thousands of times & was appreciated by lots of rasikas said he was still looking to render it perfectly at least ONCE! It is a crutch by which unsuccessful artists claim comfort.The KEY to return to RSachi's point is the NERAVAL which DISTINGUISHES THE CREATIVITY & UNDERSTANDING OF THE COMPOSITION.......PUTTING DOWN KNOWLEDGEABLE CRITICS LIKE B.V.K.SASTRY only shows your ignorance. VKV

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 10 Jul 2014, 12:09

Dear Sri VKV Sir,
I am aware of the lineage of Ambi Dikshitar and other information you have posted. Ambi Dikshitar and T.L.V.Iyer patantharam were not different.

You opine "This BOGEY MAN ARGUMENT ABOUT VILAMBAKALAM VS SOME OTHER KALAM IS NOT VERY MEANINGFUL". Meanings to be known by listening and the Great Maestro statements.

You opine "It is a crutch by which unsuccessful artists claim comfort". Most successful artists statements only you access and also veracity of whether the 'unsuccessful artists" used the ideal of patanthara suddhatvam as a crutch or for higher values in Karnatik Music and its tradition.

Your judgment of "PUTTING DOWN KNOWLEDGEABLE CRITICS LIKE B.V.K.SASTRY only shows your ignorance". Yes I am ignorant. Seek the opinion of Great Maestros forunites and give your judgment.

I urge you to listen to the Great Maestros vilambakalam singing of this great composition, afresh, unconditioned and arrive at your conclusion. This ignoramus self had the privilege of listening to all the Great Maestros and realized the values. My posting was a true reflection of my realization. I have also realized that Great Maestros are not greater than the Tradition and Karnatik Music and no one claims as such. Also that idolatry creates prejudice, rare instance in pride. Pride and sense of comfort in the knowledge. Knowledge is experience in memory. When this is questioned, retention challenge of this memory urges rejection, at times vehemently.

munirao2001

hanquill · Post by **hanquill** » 25 Jul 2014, 05:27

Reg comparison of Gamakakriya andPoorvikalyani let me add:
1.gamakakriya is a Mela raagaN0 53. according to venkatamahin Padhadhi-followed by Muthu.diskshithar in his krtis.Arahonam and avarohanam are same as O=Poorvikalyani.MD made out kriti -Meenakshi...."

2. Poorvikalyani- is a Janya raaga of Mela Karhta -no 53-Gamanasrama.with full scale-.-These are the technical difference..-By hanquill

rasikas.org

gamakakriyA

"Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositions!

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

"Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositions!

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

"Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositions!

"Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositions!

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: "Play it again, Sam"- your favourite Carnatic compositio

Re: gamakakriyA

Re: gamakakriyA

Re: gamakakriyA

Re: gamakakriyA

Re: gamakakriyA

Re: gamakakriyA