I am opening this thread as a offshoot of pearls in unknown depths for rasikas.org members meeting in general and organzing what we could do?
Latest Status
Rajumds requested all those who wants to help can contact his email id . Our first step is meeting . Then the rest will follow. So far coolkarni,rajumds and rajeshnat have volunteered . Others take atmost a week from now by mailing rajumds and let us take it forward.
Rajumds
I have sent you a personal mail . We will talk first and then take it forward.
Carnatica Symposium At Ngs
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vs_manjunath
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I am willing to join for the Chennai meeting. My e mail id: [email protected]
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Nick H
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spchennai
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Hello all,
I am Parthasarathy, a retired railway officer. My wife and I are deeply interested in carnatic music and would consider it a previlege to host the meeting for preliminary discussions in our house. We're busy with our son's wedding from 20th November (the wedding is on 1st Dec.) to about middle Dec. But anytime before or after is Ok. My email is [email protected] and phone is 044-43556610.
Thanks
Parthasarathy
I am Parthasarathy, a retired railway officer. My wife and I are deeply interested in carnatic music and would consider it a previlege to host the meeting for preliminary discussions in our house. We're busy with our son's wedding from 20th November (the wedding is on 1st Dec.) to about middle Dec. But anytime before or after is Ok. My email is [email protected] and phone is 044-43556610.
Thanks
Parthasarathy
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coolkarni
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rajumds
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Ananth
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Can we meet on the coming saturday, 4th nov, at Narada Gana Sabha?
There is a symposium on the future of carnatic music at 10 am, and coolkarni is one of the panelists (http://www.carnatica.net/nvr/bharatsangeet-nov2006.htm)
There is a symposium on the future of carnatic music at 10 am, and coolkarni is one of the panelists (http://www.carnatica.net/nvr/bharatsangeet-nov2006.htm)
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jayaram
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Browsing thru the Carnatica page, I noticed an interesting event on Sunday Nov 5th at 10am: Raganubhava: The Splendor of Raga Todi. Panelists: Dr. V. V. Srivatsa, Smt. Suguna Purushottaman, Shri. V. Subrahmaniam, Shri. T. M. Krishna followed by "Todi ka Prakaar", a thematic concert on Hindustani Todi by Dr. Sriram Parasuram.
I would be very interested in hearing from any of our rasikas who attend this event.
By the way, the list includes lots of interesting events. Rasikas in Madras, you are a lucky bunch.
I would be very interested in hearing from any of our rasikas who attend this event.
By the way, the list includes lots of interesting events. Rasikas in Madras, you are a lucky bunch.
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sangeetarasikan
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coolkarni
Nick
I made it to the symposium.
rajeshnat , ignoramus and rajumds were there too.
I will give a detailed report later tonight.
But for now here are a few highlights.
The carnatica team did introduce me as a member of raskas.org , a place on the web (where a lot of interesting things are happening) words which were greeted heartily , even though the audience was small (100 approx)
I was hopelessly out of step with the other members - who were hellbent on re-enacting a glorious past rather see the beauty of the present moment unfolding ..
Nevertheless I had my way (though i must have looked like that strokeless wonder Navjoth Singh Sidhu for the first 50 minutes when no one bothered to give me space to speak) in putting forth across my views.
I came back from the experience a chastened man - after learning the way the minds of senior musicians, critics , exponents work- hopelessly lost in a time warp.
This Only convinces me that a forum like ours is indeed a fine framework for education ...
a fine model for preparing us for the future , while giving just the relevant weightage to the past.
Nothing More. Nothing Less.
Shall post a detailed summary later tonight.
I made it to the symposium.
rajeshnat , ignoramus and rajumds were there too.
I will give a detailed report later tonight.
But for now here are a few highlights.
The carnatica team did introduce me as a member of raskas.org , a place on the web (where a lot of interesting things are happening) words which were greeted heartily , even though the audience was small (100 approx)
I was hopelessly out of step with the other members - who were hellbent on re-enacting a glorious past rather see the beauty of the present moment unfolding ..
Nevertheless I had my way (though i must have looked like that strokeless wonder Navjoth Singh Sidhu for the first 50 minutes when no one bothered to give me space to speak) in putting forth across my views.
I came back from the experience a chastened man - after learning the way the minds of senior musicians, critics , exponents work- hopelessly lost in a time warp.
This Only convinces me that a forum like ours is indeed a fine framework for education ...
a fine model for preparing us for the future , while giving just the relevant weightage to the past.
Nothing More. Nothing Less.
Shall post a detailed summary later tonight.
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10121
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
I was also there. For sure we are staying more closer to the topic in rasikas.org. The topic "The Future of Carnatic Music" meant for each of the presenters different things. All except coolkarni were talking along the lines of our topics like sahityam, past vs present musicians, young kids being pushed to concerts too early,class vs mass etc . In essence it was past to present talk.
Interestinly Coolkarni spoke twice. His second round was better .One has to give credit to him. Few questions were asked by the audience.
Overall to me coolkarni defined the problem statement better and stayed in the topic, but no one gave a solution to the problem statement.
Interestinly Coolkarni spoke twice. His second round was better .One has to give credit to him. Few questions were asked by the audience.
Overall to me coolkarni defined the problem statement better and stayed in the topic, but no one gave a solution to the problem statement.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 05 Nov 2006, 17:39, edited 1 time in total.
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coolkarni
The Future of Carnatic Music
The Discussions kicked off with PSN Giving his opinion on the state of Music Today
(He had insisted that the seating arrangement should be changed to facilitate better eye contact among the participants.)
I was buoyed by the thought that this would be a BBC –Dateline London -kind of debate , but that feeling was short lived. The absence of a moderator was going to be felt later , but at the start it was just a narration of events and problems .
Facts that seemed to be pointing in all directions…
Dwindling audiences, Rasikas showing a preference for free concerts rather than priced concerts , singing stars performing with bad voices , the craze for new compositions , vocalists with note books , youngsters being pushed on stage without preparation , too many concerts ,memories of past masters (from the Golden era)- masters who practised a krithi atleast 150 times before presenting on the stage …this was carpet bombing …
I got a chance to speak only after 50 minutes had elapsed.
For that ,I had to drop my prepared text and free my hands to grab the mike – for by then I had realized that no one was going to give it to me
I started by saying that back in my business environment , Future was always an exciting subject to be tackled. A conventional way was to put all the facts in a heap , sort them , try to make some sense or a pattern , evaluate alternatives , take actions and institute a review process.Was this panel going to do that ?
This is when it started to get funny. One panelist responded
“ Is it possible to achieve greatness in CM without Bhakthi-these days I see very little of that â€
The Discussions kicked off with PSN Giving his opinion on the state of Music Today
(He had insisted that the seating arrangement should be changed to facilitate better eye contact among the participants.)
I was buoyed by the thought that this would be a BBC –Dateline London -kind of debate , but that feeling was short lived. The absence of a moderator was going to be felt later , but at the start it was just a narration of events and problems .
Facts that seemed to be pointing in all directions…
Dwindling audiences, Rasikas showing a preference for free concerts rather than priced concerts , singing stars performing with bad voices , the craze for new compositions , vocalists with note books , youngsters being pushed on stage without preparation , too many concerts ,memories of past masters (from the Golden era)- masters who practised a krithi atleast 150 times before presenting on the stage …this was carpet bombing …
I got a chance to speak only after 50 minutes had elapsed.
For that ,I had to drop my prepared text and free my hands to grab the mike – for by then I had realized that no one was going to give it to me
I started by saying that back in my business environment , Future was always an exciting subject to be tackled. A conventional way was to put all the facts in a heap , sort them , try to make some sense or a pattern , evaluate alternatives , take actions and institute a review process.Was this panel going to do that ?
This is when it started to get funny. One panelist responded
“ Is it possible to achieve greatness in CM without Bhakthi-these days I see very little of that â€
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vasanthakokilam
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srkris
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Wow, thanks for all the news. Now these issues you had raised look very interesting. Is there anything we can do to follow up and address any of these issues? You mentioned about Sriram Parasuram and his interest in wider dissemination of music by putting certain stuff on the public domain. Can we contact him to work out a way to address it?
Documentation and information management about CM is surely in a very bad state of affairs. We can surely do something about this.
Documentation and information management about CM is surely in a very bad state of affairs. We can surely do something about this.
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rajeshnat
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At the end of the debate, I introduced myself as a rasikas.org folk and I had a chance to share my viewpoints on 3 segments (vidwans,sabhas and rasikas..) and ask one question.
On Vidwan side problem statement:
I said if you look at the CM, atleast to whatever we have observed in the last half decade , in terms of audience reach , CM has peaked in 1960's (with great jAmbavAns like ssi and mmi then) and sometime in 1980's wherein santhanam spiked the interest to a phenomenal high. In the event of we not having santhanam like in the next 20 to 30 years , there is a big chance if you extrapolate crowd dwindling in a non free kutcheri of present to the next 30 years,certainly CM future appears little bleak.
On Vidwan side solution:
Sacrifice in commercial terms is the key point .The vidwans should not give live concerts as recordings , but only give recordings which are not showcasing their best performances and make rasikas come to live concerts to experience Carnatic Music. This is a temporary measure to get the crowd back.But this is my solution looking from outside , will I do that if I was a vidwan. I am sure you can consider me as a a bit of hypocrite here.
On Sabha side problem statement:
I gave an example that since there is too much of concerts that too with established
artists,can a vidwan select one sabha 1 this year/exclude sabha 2 this year and select sabha 2 next year/exclude sabha 1 next year . In that process will the vidwan's not be victimized by the sabhas???
On Sabha side solution:
Since I directed that question to Shri Krishnaswamy of NGS . His answer was definitely somewhat convincing and I liked his openness.He talked about that they have a group called Federation of Sabhas and he told once he had tried what I said where he clubbed artists and spread it in sabhas and even emoluments to the vidwans were hiked and clubbed. But somehow the sabhas which have the artists excluded for that year, give an award and ask that artist to sing them in the concert.
On Rasikas side problem statement:
I told there are 3 crowds of rasikas wherein one sits for kurai onrum illai , one sitting
for marubalka and another extreme sitting for ShankarAbharananai azhiathu vAdi kalyAni ,and I asked the vidwans not to get too worried with the crowd . I gave my own experience of How I used to start by sitting for the whole concert of santhanam to hear his bho sambhO and now I am slowly evolving.
Overall I told them the solution should be arrived by vidwans and sabhas and not rasikas.It looks the solution will start with few belling the cat and I hope this post creates the openness for the vidwans-sabhas community to slowly evolve at a solution.
On Vidwan side problem statement:
I said if you look at the CM, atleast to whatever we have observed in the last half decade , in terms of audience reach , CM has peaked in 1960's (with great jAmbavAns like ssi and mmi then) and sometime in 1980's wherein santhanam spiked the interest to a phenomenal high. In the event of we not having santhanam like in the next 20 to 30 years , there is a big chance if you extrapolate crowd dwindling in a non free kutcheri of present to the next 30 years,certainly CM future appears little bleak.
On Vidwan side solution:
Sacrifice in commercial terms is the key point .The vidwans should not give live concerts as recordings , but only give recordings which are not showcasing their best performances and make rasikas come to live concerts to experience Carnatic Music. This is a temporary measure to get the crowd back.But this is my solution looking from outside , will I do that if I was a vidwan. I am sure you can consider me as a a bit of hypocrite here.
On Sabha side problem statement:
I gave an example that since there is too much of concerts that too with established
artists,can a vidwan select one sabha 1 this year/exclude sabha 2 this year and select sabha 2 next year/exclude sabha 1 next year . In that process will the vidwan's not be victimized by the sabhas???
On Sabha side solution:
Since I directed that question to Shri Krishnaswamy of NGS . His answer was definitely somewhat convincing and I liked his openness.He talked about that they have a group called Federation of Sabhas and he told once he had tried what I said where he clubbed artists and spread it in sabhas and even emoluments to the vidwans were hiked and clubbed. But somehow the sabhas which have the artists excluded for that year, give an award and ask that artist to sing them in the concert.
On Rasikas side problem statement:
I told there are 3 crowds of rasikas wherein one sits for kurai onrum illai , one sitting
for marubalka and another extreme sitting for ShankarAbharananai azhiathu vAdi kalyAni ,and I asked the vidwans not to get too worried with the crowd . I gave my own experience of How I used to start by sitting for the whole concert of santhanam to hear his bho sambhO and now I am slowly evolving.
Overall I told them the solution should be arrived by vidwans and sabhas and not rasikas.It looks the solution will start with few belling the cat and I hope this post creates the openness for the vidwans-sabhas community to slowly evolve at a solution.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 06 Nov 2006, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.
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rajumds
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The problem is not bringing rasikas to concerts. If you are rasika then you will attend concerts. The problem is in creating new rasikas out of common man. After the panel discussions, Kulkarni raised a very important point. You see performing prodigies but why do you never see a rasika prodigy (a 6 or 7 year old enjoying a full concert). Because a rasika has to evolve. The existing system ( sabhas, artists & rasikas) has to work towards creating new rasikas.
Last edited by rajumds on 06 Nov 2006, 14:51, edited 1 time in total.
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coolkarni
srkris.
Sriram Parasuram was very clear and candid about the road ahead.He simply said , "you guys make the suggestions and I will do all I can ,to follow it up."
Even the Carnatica team was very forthcoming on these issues.
They asked me to prepare a White paper on the rasikas needs .
The problem with many of the senior members on the panel was their idea of Internet based education -most of them related it to only learning through a Guru through Internet.
I made a point that Internet helped me locate new friends in my own street in adyar , even though we had been seeing each other for decades.Internet gives a space to discuss , and elaborate like no other medium.Add the masala of tracks and you have the most comprehensive way to spread knowledge.
But yes , one has to exorcise the ghost of copyrights before anything substantial can be achieved.I even mentioned my own plight , time and again ...
Sriram Parasuram was very clear and candid about the road ahead.He simply said , "you guys make the suggestions and I will do all I can ,to follow it up."
Even the Carnatica team was very forthcoming on these issues.
They asked me to prepare a White paper on the rasikas needs .
The problem with many of the senior members on the panel was their idea of Internet based education -most of them related it to only learning through a Guru through Internet.
I made a point that Internet helped me locate new friends in my own street in adyar , even though we had been seeing each other for decades.Internet gives a space to discuss , and elaborate like no other medium.Add the masala of tracks and you have the most comprehensive way to spread knowledge.
But yes , one has to exorcise the ghost of copyrights before anything substantial can be achieved.I even mentioned my own plight , time and again ...
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ramakriya
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This is a non-solution. On the other hand, I think listening to a live concert recording will only increase the probability of a rasika attending a concert of that artist whenever he/she gets a chance!rajeshnat wrote:On Vidwan side solution:
Sacrifice in commercial terms is the key point .The vidwans should not give live concerts as recordings , but only give recordings which are not showcasing their best performances and make rasikas come to live concerts to experience Carnatic Music. This is a temporary measure to get the crowd back.But this is my solution looking from outside , will I do that if I was a vidwan. I am sure you can consider me as a a bit of hypocrite here.
The commerical recordings packing 8-10 items per tape/cd do not do justice to the rAgas, kritis or the artists. Thankfully there are a small percentatge commercial recordings, where they show mercy on the rasikas and present just 2-3 compositions in a recording.
Another reason is, a number of artists don't seem to reach their full potential in studio recordings - Can think of several performing artists who do not sound as good in the commercial recordings compared to their concert performances. Reasons could be many. Just performing in front of an appreciative audience might sparkle their imagination much better compared to a recording in a studio.
-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 06 Nov 2006, 23:33, edited 1 time in total.
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srkris
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Yes. We cant expect musicians to sacrifice their earnings by releasing their recordings in the public domain. But they can do so many other things that can be mutually benificial to them and the rasikas.ramakriya wrote:This is a non-solution.
How about making themselves more accessible to the world at large, and connecting with their audience other than in concerts (like through the internet)? And shed any coldness or holier than thou when interacting with non-musicians? I have observed that many musicians (singers specifically) try to be a one-(wo)man army. Collaboration and networking with the outside world generally, and specifically concerning projects related to music, is sorely lacking.
Then try creating value for people who look upto them - like educating the public and discussing about various musical concepts? These are the kinds of investments which may not bring immediate returns to the musicians involved, but which will definitely have long-term payoffs. Its called brand-building, and it cant be done when people cant reach the musician.
Then create some music-content and license it specifically for public-domain. This need not involve studio-quality recording or complicated technology. It can take the form of simply singing and recording on the PC and uploading it (merely illustrative clips).
For example, I would like it if musicians volunteer to build a database of raga alapanas (short and crisp, with explanations wherever necessary) for known ragas. This should of course be free for download and distribution. Doing these things will not affect their earning abilities. In fact they can even add "this raga is elaborated further in such and such CD" so that interested persons will buy those CDs to listen.
This free content can be copied to audio-cds and distributed to anyone interested. The cost for this is definitely going to be negligible.
Performing in concerts is a very minor thing - it is the last stage. It is not everything. Carnatic musicians must assume the role of missionaries of CM and try to gain converts by helping people interested to graduate to classical music. Creating value, as I have described above, is paramount. This is how a musician can show to people that he/she is seriously and genuinely interested in music and its growth, not merely by performing in priced concerts hopping from place to place.
Consider youtube! How many people can benifit if a song is captured on video and thereby taught to the world at large by putting it on youtube!!! It will create both value for the recepient as well as publicity for the musician. We need to think on these lines, and exploit technology to make music reach the masses. The potential is virtually infinite.
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vasanthakokilam
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ramakriya
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Very good thoughts srkris. I sincerely hope some of the performers on this forum take this as a cuesrkris wrote:Performing in concerts is a very minor thing - it is the last stage. It is not everything. Carnatic musicians must assume the role of missionaries of CM and try to gain converts by helping people interested to graduate to classical music.
Consider youtube! How many people can benifit if a song is captured on video and thereby taught to the world at large by putting it on youtube!
Perhaps, they will be able to educate all of us to be better rasikas, and create more rasikas at the same time.-Ramakriya
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coolkarni
Srkris
You have started the white paper , in a way.
a few more thoughts.
In the 70s, RK Srikantan took on the role of a coordinator -operating from bangalore- and was advisor consultant to various sabhas throughout karnataka.
We had one small sabha -harihareswara ganasabha-in my native place-harihar - and there were a series of concerts held there.
one could not look for a more intimidating surrounding to start such a sabha.
audiences were small initially,but with passage of time , the music caught up.
that was where i heard MS Sheela Doreswami Iyengar, Ganesh Kumaresh (as tinytots), mahadevappa-nagaraj and so many others.
there was even a memorable vocal duet by MS Sheela and Susheela Ullal ...
Until then , the only place where I could get to hear a carnatic concert was at a rich mill owners home (gundi mahadevappa) who used to invite MS to sing at his daughters weddings.
I now realise that , sitting in metros , how one tends to overlook the importance of spreading this activity geographically too.
And that is where Internet scores such a huge point.
You have started the white paper , in a way.
a few more thoughts.
In the 70s, RK Srikantan took on the role of a coordinator -operating from bangalore- and was advisor consultant to various sabhas throughout karnataka.
We had one small sabha -harihareswara ganasabha-in my native place-harihar - and there were a series of concerts held there.
one could not look for a more intimidating surrounding to start such a sabha.
audiences were small initially,but with passage of time , the music caught up.
that was where i heard MS Sheela Doreswami Iyengar, Ganesh Kumaresh (as tinytots), mahadevappa-nagaraj and so many others.
there was even a memorable vocal duet by MS Sheela and Susheela Ullal ...
Until then , the only place where I could get to hear a carnatic concert was at a rich mill owners home (gundi mahadevappa) who used to invite MS to sing at his daughters weddings.
I now realise that , sitting in metros , how one tends to overlook the importance of spreading this activity geographically too.
And that is where Internet scores such a huge point.
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coolkarni
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coolkarni
I am sorry if I gave an impression that Bhakthi did not electrify me , too.
Sure enough , It did.The sight of a vocalist on stage always does.So does the first stroke of the mridangam or the first tuning of a violin.
My only point was the fact if indeed another tyagaraja was (or is already) born , who would be the ones to find him early ?
Or are we going to smirk Like Mark Twain did and say
"There was only one true Christian.They caught HIM early and crucified Him"
The past can be a baggage or a delightful bunch of balloons.
I was trying to show both the choices..
Sure enough , It did.The sight of a vocalist on stage always does.So does the first stroke of the mridangam or the first tuning of a violin.
My only point was the fact if indeed another tyagaraja was (or is already) born , who would be the ones to find him early ?
Or are we going to smirk Like Mark Twain did and say
"There was only one true Christian.They caught HIM early and crucified Him"
The past can be a baggage or a delightful bunch of balloons.
I was trying to show both the choices..
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vasanthakokilam
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I missed this part of srkris's idea on first read. I think this is a great idea that is practical and implementable. Even record companies would participate since it has a built-in promotional message which is a win-win.For example, I would like it if musicians volunteer to build a database of raga alapanas (short and crisp, with explanations wherever necessary) for known ragas. This should of course be free for download and distribution. Doing these things will not affect their earning abilities. In fact they can even add "this raga is elaborated further in such and such CD" so that interested persons will buy those CDs to listen.
This free content can be copied to audio-cds and distributed to anyone interested. The cost for this is definitely going to be negligible.
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jayaram
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- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
<<Performing in concerts is a very minor thing - it is the last stage. It is not everything. Carnatic musicians must assume the role of missionaries of CM and try to gain converts by helping people interested to graduate to classical music. Creating value, as I have described above, is paramount. This is how a musician can show to people that he/she is seriously and genuinely interested in music and its growth, not merely by performing in priced concerts hopping from place to place.>>
Well, I don't quite agree with this. The core 'dharma' of a musician is to perform on stage. Everything else is secondary. In fact, there are several vidwans who are not that good at lec-dems or such like, but are at completely at home on the stage, giving a kutcheri.
While the other activities are certainly welcome and should be encouraged, they should not be at the expense of the kutcheri.
Well, I don't quite agree with this. The core 'dharma' of a musician is to perform on stage. Everything else is secondary. In fact, there are several vidwans who are not that good at lec-dems or such like, but are at completely at home on the stage, giving a kutcheri.
While the other activities are certainly welcome and should be encouraged, they should not be at the expense of the kutcheri.
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jayaram
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- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
While on this topic, let's also discuss the key roles that rasikas should play.
In my opinion, the more 'senior' rasikas should be working on the peripheral work around concerts, e.g. helping to create music databases, preparing the ground for good lec-dems, helping to disseminate musical knowledge, etc.
By taking on a more active role, we rasikas can help propagate this great art form, while leaving the musicians to focus on their 'core competence' area, i.e. giving good performances.
In my opinion, the more 'senior' rasikas should be working on the peripheral work around concerts, e.g. helping to create music databases, preparing the ground for good lec-dems, helping to disseminate musical knowledge, etc.
By taking on a more active role, we rasikas can help propagate this great art form, while leaving the musicians to focus on their 'core competence' area, i.e. giving good performances.
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srkris
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Also the very fact that piracy in CM is a serious issue speaks for itself as to how the music interests people.
There are first time downloaders all the time (who ask others how to download something from rapidshare etc). These are people who have developed a ear for classical music. So its not that the music itself has reached saturation point or that it cant spread.
So while enforcing their copyrights, musicians must create alternative content (content that is not commercially marketable) for the interested rasikas to get more interested, and for newbies to develop a taste. No dilution of music (carnatic pop) is necessary for this - just whole pure music would do very fine.
Just enforcing copyrights without creating alternative sources of music and musical instruction, will merely stifle audience interest. You cant therefore, as a doctor, also save the patient whom you're trying to kill.
That's why even movie-makers dont make too much noise about copyright violations as long as the movie gets popular.
There are first time downloaders all the time (who ask others how to download something from rapidshare etc). These are people who have developed a ear for classical music. So its not that the music itself has reached saturation point or that it cant spread.
So while enforcing their copyrights, musicians must create alternative content (content that is not commercially marketable) for the interested rasikas to get more interested, and for newbies to develop a taste. No dilution of music (carnatic pop) is necessary for this - just whole pure music would do very fine.
Just enforcing copyrights without creating alternative sources of music and musical instruction, will merely stifle audience interest. You cant therefore, as a doctor, also save the patient whom you're trying to kill.
That's why even movie-makers dont make too much noise about copyright violations as long as the movie gets popular.
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srkris
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Jayaram-ji, I was saying the same thing. It is not that I am advocating a restriction on performing in concerts. It is important final part, but not a major part, as far as drawing new rasikas is concerned. I just wanted to emphasize that performing in concerts alone will not bring new rasikas. Professional singers are the best promoters and ambassadors and missionaries of the art form.jayaram wrote:While the other activities are certainly welcome and should be encouraged, they should not be at the expense of the kutcheri.
The best that they could do is not to turn their backs when novices approach them.
I agree 100%. Not counting myself as a 'senior rasika' by any stretch, I am welcome to more specific ideas on what "we" can do. Of course the Carnatic Wiki can become a very huge tool as far as this website is concerned, incorporating into it a lot of documentation. What else is in "our power"? We definitely have the reach too - we can make and distribute free CDs and promotional material to people who might be interested in developing a taste for CM. What else?In my opinion, the more 'senior' rasikas should be working on the peripheral work around concerts, e.g. helping to create music databases, preparing the ground for good lec-dems, helping to disseminate musical knowledge, etc.
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rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Kji,
My 2 cents, for what they are worth:
If any art form has to survive, people must patronize it. There has to be a demand which can then be met. The success of a thriving form is not reflected in the successful performing artists who are but the tip of the iceberg, and represent in essence the supply of this 'music'. The million $ question then becomes: How can this demand be cultivated? IMO, in one of two ways, both equally important:
1) In someway, improve the lot of music teachers who eke out a living out of teaching music - a very small minority of students who learn CM become performers. The ones lucky enough to be taught by imaginative and vested teachers begin a life-time afffair with CM, and become the enlightened audience (and create the 'demand') and earn the sobriquet of 'rasika'. Every student who 'suffers' from an indifferent teacher represents a lost opportunity to cultivate a 'rasika'.
2) The other is to recognize that the market for CM is a 'niche' market. Conduct surveys among the audience during the December season and find out what the 'demand' is, and figure out a way of meeting this demand without compromising the performers integrity. Maybe, the concerts can be typed or classified differently: a tier I event (like the grand slams and masters series events) could require n number of AlApanas, m number of nerevals, at least 2 opportunities for tanIs, one RTP, and a cap on the number of tukkaDAs, etc; a tier II event very much like the tier I, except that there is only one tanI and no RTP; and tier III can be a tukkaDA filled concert - the only type of concert where one can sing the kALIya nartana tillAnA, or manki AnkhEn (a lovely song, but apparently not to the liking of the 'evolved' rasikas - who very unimaginatively refer to this as the 'monkey song' - and can avoid tier III events if they knew about it in advance!:lol:).
My 2 cents, for what they are worth:
If any art form has to survive, people must patronize it. There has to be a demand which can then be met. The success of a thriving form is not reflected in the successful performing artists who are but the tip of the iceberg, and represent in essence the supply of this 'music'. The million $ question then becomes: How can this demand be cultivated? IMO, in one of two ways, both equally important:
1) In someway, improve the lot of music teachers who eke out a living out of teaching music - a very small minority of students who learn CM become performers. The ones lucky enough to be taught by imaginative and vested teachers begin a life-time afffair with CM, and become the enlightened audience (and create the 'demand') and earn the sobriquet of 'rasika'. Every student who 'suffers' from an indifferent teacher represents a lost opportunity to cultivate a 'rasika'.
2) The other is to recognize that the market for CM is a 'niche' market. Conduct surveys among the audience during the December season and find out what the 'demand' is, and figure out a way of meeting this demand without compromising the performers integrity. Maybe, the concerts can be typed or classified differently: a tier I event (like the grand slams and masters series events) could require n number of AlApanas, m number of nerevals, at least 2 opportunities for tanIs, one RTP, and a cap on the number of tukkaDAs, etc; a tier II event very much like the tier I, except that there is only one tanI and no RTP; and tier III can be a tukkaDA filled concert - the only type of concert where one can sing the kALIya nartana tillAnA, or manki AnkhEn (a lovely song, but apparently not to the liking of the 'evolved' rasikas - who very unimaginatively refer to this as the 'monkey song' - and can avoid tier III events if they knew about it in advance!:lol:).
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Shashi,
You have generated a lot of concrete and creative responses!
Srikris,
You have a lot of points which are valid (YOUR missionary zeal shows). The distance between the performer and rasikAs definitely needs to be addressed. We need the performers to speak their minds and make it possible for all of us to understand what THEY have to offer as solutions in guaranteeing a healthy future for CM. They are all busy, traveling, performing and managing their careers. Yet, they have to take part in this as well. In the coming decades, to have an appreciative audience, they need the younger generation to continue as keen rasikas in place of the senior ones. I remember reading in kutcheribuzz of a child's impressions about attending the Cleveland festival. He was very happy that CM stars ate breakfast with him and discussed cricket and music and he was proud to be part of the scene. He is an example of the growing up generation--present (when it comes to some children) and future listeners. It is rewarding for both the artiste and the rasika when there is exchange of ideas--some musicians ask the audience about sound: is it okay? In the same manner, if there is communication between the performers and the rasikAs on how to nourish CM, so much the better. Again, not mere lip service, but a genuine desire to contribute to CM's future. Their frustrations too, if brought to light, will enlighten the rasikAs and make them see THEIR points of view (After all, we all go on and on about ours!).
You have generated a lot of concrete and creative responses!
Srikris,
You have a lot of points which are valid (YOUR missionary zeal shows). The distance between the performer and rasikAs definitely needs to be addressed. We need the performers to speak their minds and make it possible for all of us to understand what THEY have to offer as solutions in guaranteeing a healthy future for CM. They are all busy, traveling, performing and managing their careers. Yet, they have to take part in this as well. In the coming decades, to have an appreciative audience, they need the younger generation to continue as keen rasikas in place of the senior ones. I remember reading in kutcheribuzz of a child's impressions about attending the Cleveland festival. He was very happy that CM stars ate breakfast with him and discussed cricket and music and he was proud to be part of the scene. He is an example of the growing up generation--present (when it comes to some children) and future listeners. It is rewarding for both the artiste and the rasika when there is exchange of ideas--some musicians ask the audience about sound: is it okay? In the same manner, if there is communication between the performers and the rasikAs on how to nourish CM, so much the better. Again, not mere lip service, but a genuine desire to contribute to CM's future. Their frustrations too, if brought to light, will enlighten the rasikAs and make them see THEIR points of view (After all, we all go on and on about ours!).
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Ravi,
mehnat tO karnA hI paDEgA!
You are right. Though the tier system comes across as something rigid, it addreses expectations and disappointments among rasikAs. While a playback singer is scheduled in town, CM rasikas of tier one (?!) are clear about the content of the concert and are happy to stay home. It works the other way too. When CM artistes who are capable of rendering serious as well as lighter fare give concerts, there is confusion, expectations and disappointment. It must be harder for the performer in gauging one particular crowd. A tier system certainly helps here. You could substitute tier with another word in case it sounds elitist or rigid. (classical concert, popular concert?). We had a discussion about it on the sangeetham BB about Nityashri's concerts in Singapore. I had asked whether it was difficult to specify the nature of the concerts so that the rasikAs could go to the one they chose to.
It is not easy, but it can be done. After all, it is more the performer than the rasika who would eventually benefit by it all..
mehnat tO karnA hI paDEgA!
You are right. Though the tier system comes across as something rigid, it addreses expectations and disappointments among rasikAs. While a playback singer is scheduled in town, CM rasikas of tier one (?!) are clear about the content of the concert and are happy to stay home. It works the other way too. When CM artistes who are capable of rendering serious as well as lighter fare give concerts, there is confusion, expectations and disappointment. It must be harder for the performer in gauging one particular crowd. A tier system certainly helps here. You could substitute tier with another word in case it sounds elitist or rigid. (classical concert, popular concert?). We had a discussion about it on the sangeetham BB about Nityashri's concerts in Singapore. I had asked whether it was difficult to specify the nature of the concerts so that the rasikAs could go to the one they chose to.
It is not easy, but it can be done. After all, it is more the performer than the rasika who would eventually benefit by it all..
Last edited by arasi on 08 Nov 2006, 02:48, edited 1 time in total.
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
By the way, Shashi-ji, wasn't there also the small matter of meeting up after the panel discussion to go over plans to start a new 'sabha'? And perhaps catch up with Manakkal & co? Did that happen at all? Or are we still far away from the inaugural session?
Once the December season starts, it could be quite difficult to hold any such meeting, and it could well be into the next year before it can materialise.
Once the December season starts, it could be quite difficult to hold any such meeting, and it could well be into the next year before it can materialise.
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
i could reach the venue only towards the end of the program & i went only to meet fellow rasika.org members. But only rajesh & kulkarni were there & we couldn't discuss anything specific. May be the weather played spoil sport. The best start could be as kulkarni suggested - meet in besant nagar beach & then meet sri MR at his residence. kulkarni can find out from sri MR about a suitable time.
srkris
is it possible to move the discussion on future of carnatic music to a separate thread.
srkris
is it possible to move the discussion on future of carnatic music to a separate thread.
Last edited by rajumds on 08 Nov 2006, 21:45, edited 1 time in total.
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10121
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
I brought the same topic .Coolkarni also suggested to me , that he can arrange a quasi live concert experience in a hall, where we will play one of the live vintage recordings. My only insistence that this is not free,all are welcome case. We need to pay some thing from our pocket.
From whatever I talked briefly , looks coolkarni will decide whether it may be a besantnagar meeting or concert hall, all roads lead to
...
From whatever I talked briefly , looks coolkarni will decide whether it may be a besantnagar meeting or concert hall, all roads lead to
...