This being a rasikas forum, I thought the topic of audio (and to some extent, lighting) at Carnatic music kutcheris is relevant for discussion. Recently I attended a violin duo concert at University of London, and the care with which they adjusted the audio system before the concert began, impressed me very much. I have found that for some reason most of the concerts organized by desis (including ones organized outside India) have below-average audio systems and settings. Feedback is an almost regular occurrence at our kutcheris, even though many of us are accompished engineers and scientists!
A few observations of mine:
1. A mike (or two) would be kept infront of a speaker, thus leading to feedback. This is such a basic thing that anyone working in the audio area should know, but again and again I have found this to be the case. (And I have taken the liberty to adjust the speakers myself at various concerts, even though I was not involved in the organization.) The 'toppi' mike for the mridangam should be kept at very low volume, otherwise it can also cause feedback.
2. Organizers don't seem to want to spend enough money on a decent graphic equalizer, something so essential for our concerts. Usually it's the variety where all the output (vocal, violin, percussion) gets equal treatment, which is not useful. We need to be able to adjust the bass/treble settings for, say, mridangam different from that for violin. And the better systems are not that much more expensive than the inferior ones.
3. On lighting: many organizers love to dim the lights in the auditorium during the concert. A core requirement for our concerts is for the musician to be able to see the reactions on the audience's faces, so regular lighting is a must. I have asked several musicians about this and they all have expressed the same sentiment.
4. Venue: concerts in the west tend to be held in lecture halls/classrooms. The audio effect in these rooms is pretty average. I realize this is done to keep costs low, but at least we can choose better quality college/school auditoriums?
Your reactions please. I feel this is such an important topic that we rasikas should take a more active part in. A better listening experience helps us all (including the musicians) in the long run.
Audio and lights for kutcheris
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Radhakrishnan
- Posts: 287
- Joined: 16 Jan 2006, 10:09
Jayaram,thank you for opening this thread.
First of all,for a smaller audience,we don’t need mike system at all! Of course,this has limitations, the acoustics of the room should be proper, the audience should be minimal,the singer(if it is a vocal concert)should have a throwing voice.But I have attended some wonderful mike less concerts,including violin concerts.
Regarding feedback,the singer should be able to hear what he sings.I remember a concert of bi of Bismillah Khan,there was absolutely no feedback and he kept on blaming the mike man.
Should there be a seperate mike for toppi at all?!
Vairamangalam used to recall his KrishnanaGana Sabha concert with Mani Iyer mridangam.He never used mike for mridangam,so giving respect to the great man,some vocalists stopped using mike.Mani iyer requested Vairam to raise the sruti a bit.
.mike iLamal oNara kaTayile,kacheri kazhinjayudan thonda orE vali!
(BTW,I have been hunting for that concert tape,anyone happens to have it or atleast attended that concert ,please share the experience, the concert was held in late 60s or early 70s.,somebody having connection with KGS can help)
regarding lighting, yes,this is Indian classical music,where they expect feedback from the audience.So lights should be even.Especially Hindustani musicians,they expect bale, sabash or some reaction.Coming to that Bismillah Khan concert again,it was a silent audience,probably respecting the maestro,but in the end his remark about the audience was low!
Venue, class room or lecture hall, should be echo free.Nani Palkhivala auditorium,Coimbatore,where Rajalaksmi Fine Arts conducts their programme is good.
First of all,for a smaller audience,we don’t need mike system at all! Of course,this has limitations, the acoustics of the room should be proper, the audience should be minimal,the singer(if it is a vocal concert)should have a throwing voice.But I have attended some wonderful mike less concerts,including violin concerts.
Regarding feedback,the singer should be able to hear what he sings.I remember a concert of bi of Bismillah Khan,there was absolutely no feedback and he kept on blaming the mike man.
Should there be a seperate mike for toppi at all?!
Vairamangalam used to recall his KrishnanaGana Sabha concert with Mani Iyer mridangam.He never used mike for mridangam,so giving respect to the great man,some vocalists stopped using mike.Mani iyer requested Vairam to raise the sruti a bit.
.mike iLamal oNara kaTayile,kacheri kazhinjayudan thonda orE vali!
(BTW,I have been hunting for that concert tape,anyone happens to have it or atleast attended that concert ,please share the experience, the concert was held in late 60s or early 70s.,somebody having connection with KGS can help)
regarding lighting, yes,this is Indian classical music,where they expect feedback from the audience.So lights should be even.Especially Hindustani musicians,they expect bale, sabash or some reaction.Coming to that Bismillah Khan concert again,it was a silent audience,probably respecting the maestro,but in the end his remark about the audience was low!
Venue, class room or lecture hall, should be echo free.Nani Palkhivala auditorium,Coimbatore,where Rajalaksmi Fine Arts conducts their programme is good.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9474
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Radhakrishnan, you have some confusion, I think, between feedback (the screaching caused by mics picking up from speakers) and what is variously called foldback (I think) and monitor. This last is the placing of speakers facing the musicians so that they can hear themsleves, and is absolutely vital: in a music form where there is much improvisation, musicians on stage are often left to rely on their psychic senses, rather than their ears, if they cannot hear each other!
The absence of this foldback then leads to demands from the musicians to raise the volume, so that they can hear themselves. This leaves the audience wondering of our ears might not have more comfortable at a rock concert!
It seems to be forgotten entirely that this is acoustic music. Amplification should be there only to make it audible to those who would be unable to hear it in a large hall --- not to make it LOUD.
Unfortunately, many (there are exceptions who really know their trade) of the sound crew seem to be more used to discos and weddings, wetting up their stack of speakers and adjusting their equipment accordingly.
Even such an organisation as Bharatya Vidya Bhavan in London seems to believe that we come to concerts to be deafened (has anything improved since they renovated their hall? I hope so).
Have you noticed how many set up their desk at the side of the stage? They cannot even hear what the audience is hearing! Again, the beter ones take an occasional walk around the auditorium to listen: the worst ones just take a nap until packing-up time comes.
It is not necessarily any better in London's major concert venues, where they may be able to cope with an orchestra, but do not seem to understand balancing three or four performers. The best, by far, UK sound people, in my experience, are to be found in the provincial theatres.
The microphone has invaded everywhere. I lamented the volume level at a vina arrangetram once to the teacher, who replied that she was powerless, as the parents asked for more and more volume. So the veena might as well be an electric guitar.
I have seen also parents demanding extra microphones (a misconception, it does't necessarily mean more volume) and higher settings for their children when it would have been so much better to see that they practiced strength of voice in the first place! I am certain that these children can make themselves heard accross the school playground: why do they think they have to whisper their music? And what is a youngster who lacks that most basic skill of any stage performer, that of projecting their voice, doing an arrangetram for in the first place?
Even for house concerts an amplifier seems necessary. Rarely are we treated to the the true sound of voices and instruments.
Jayaram, do you noticed you have touched a raw nerve in me? I could go on. And on and on. So many concerts ruined by the sound man.
But, luckily, I have to go out!
The absence of this foldback then leads to demands from the musicians to raise the volume, so that they can hear themselves. This leaves the audience wondering of our ears might not have more comfortable at a rock concert!
It seems to be forgotten entirely that this is acoustic music. Amplification should be there only to make it audible to those who would be unable to hear it in a large hall --- not to make it LOUD.
Unfortunately, many (there are exceptions who really know their trade) of the sound crew seem to be more used to discos and weddings, wetting up their stack of speakers and adjusting their equipment accordingly.
Even such an organisation as Bharatya Vidya Bhavan in London seems to believe that we come to concerts to be deafened (has anything improved since they renovated their hall? I hope so).
Have you noticed how many set up their desk at the side of the stage? They cannot even hear what the audience is hearing! Again, the beter ones take an occasional walk around the auditorium to listen: the worst ones just take a nap until packing-up time comes.
It is not necessarily any better in London's major concert venues, where they may be able to cope with an orchestra, but do not seem to understand balancing three or four performers. The best, by far, UK sound people, in my experience, are to be found in the provincial theatres.
The microphone has invaded everywhere. I lamented the volume level at a vina arrangetram once to the teacher, who replied that she was powerless, as the parents asked for more and more volume. So the veena might as well be an electric guitar.
I have seen also parents demanding extra microphones (a misconception, it does't necessarily mean more volume) and higher settings for their children when it would have been so much better to see that they practiced strength of voice in the first place! I am certain that these children can make themselves heard accross the school playground: why do they think they have to whisper their music? And what is a youngster who lacks that most basic skill of any stage performer, that of projecting their voice, doing an arrangetram for in the first place?
Even for house concerts an amplifier seems necessary. Rarely are we treated to the the true sound of voices and instruments.
Jayaram, do you noticed you have touched a raw nerve in me? I could go on. And on and on. So many concerts ruined by the sound man.
But, luckily, I have to go out!
Last edited by Guest on 13 Oct 2006, 16:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Radhakrishnan
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Nick H
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I think it is the right word... but we're talking about the same thing!
How right you are that smaller audiences should do without amplifiers altogether!
But it is not always the fault of the soundman. I'm afraid that musicians may have become lazy! And, as I mentioned above, many youngsters never learn to put strength into their voices.
Many a musician, including seniors, has no concept that the microphone should be pointing at them, or their instrument, or that it will not pick up any sound when they are turning to face the violinist or mridangist (this is the real use of multiple mics). They think also that they can give emphasis by increaing their volume, and coming right up to the mic --- don't they realise that this gives a huge overload to the system and to our ears out there in the audience?
Many musicians, also, insist on instructing the sound man. they are the last person to do this, as they have no knowledge of what the audience is hearing. Some organisations wisely ignore them and make the changes on the monitor speakers only, but not many, as the culture of yes sir, certainly sir, generaly rules!
They do not co-operate with the sound man for the sound check, if there is one, relaxedly humming a few phrases into the microphone at a fraction of the volume the will use when they 'get going' --- and the sound people don't seem to realise this and adjust accordingly.
How right you are that smaller audiences should do without amplifiers altogether!
But it is not always the fault of the soundman. I'm afraid that musicians may have become lazy! And, as I mentioned above, many youngsters never learn to put strength into their voices.
Many a musician, including seniors, has no concept that the microphone should be pointing at them, or their instrument, or that it will not pick up any sound when they are turning to face the violinist or mridangist (this is the real use of multiple mics). They think also that they can give emphasis by increaing their volume, and coming right up to the mic --- don't they realise that this gives a huge overload to the system and to our ears out there in the audience?
Many musicians, also, insist on instructing the sound man. they are the last person to do this, as they have no knowledge of what the audience is hearing. Some organisations wisely ignore them and make the changes on the monitor speakers only, but not many, as the culture of yes sir, certainly sir, generaly rules!
They do not co-operate with the sound man for the sound check, if there is one, relaxedly humming a few phrases into the microphone at a fraction of the volume the will use when they 'get going' --- and the sound people don't seem to realise this and adjust accordingly.
Last edited by Guest on 13 Oct 2006, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Nick,
No, it is not a raw nerve--it is the chords of sensibility and sensitivity that you have struck. Your experience in sound and voicing it means a lot to us as audience. Good music is wasted and loses its sweetness in the noise jungle. We have discussed this problem before on Sangeetham. I am glad Jayaram has started this thread and you have made it clear as to what is involved in this 'sound not understood' situation we face at almost every concert. In earlier days, yes, the microphones interfered with their screeching sounds. Yet, the interference caused by the vocalist and yes, the violinist AND the mridangist was not there. Because of all the song and dance of some of the performers, we suffer more as audience (noise, interruptions during performance, the performers paying attention to sound alone in the beginning of the concert and not getting involved in their performance); not knowing that the mike can work to their disadvantage if volume is raised (audience apathy).
Assuming there is a good sound system and a good sound man, one solution is for the musicians to come half an hour ahead of time (has happened once, in my life time!) and check too, by being at the receiving end where the audience is seated.
Those who sing for movies seem to be very particular but the
end result is a no winner. Is it because the studio sound system is very different and they base their knowledge on that?
On a related note: if only they would make it a point to attend others' concerts and be among the audience, the sound 'tyranny'
would slowly disappear too? (believe me, Jayaram, your adjective fits in perfectly here)...
No, it is not a raw nerve--it is the chords of sensibility and sensitivity that you have struck. Your experience in sound and voicing it means a lot to us as audience. Good music is wasted and loses its sweetness in the noise jungle. We have discussed this problem before on Sangeetham. I am glad Jayaram has started this thread and you have made it clear as to what is involved in this 'sound not understood' situation we face at almost every concert. In earlier days, yes, the microphones interfered with their screeching sounds. Yet, the interference caused by the vocalist and yes, the violinist AND the mridangist was not there. Because of all the song and dance of some of the performers, we suffer more as audience (noise, interruptions during performance, the performers paying attention to sound alone in the beginning of the concert and not getting involved in their performance); not knowing that the mike can work to their disadvantage if volume is raised (audience apathy).
Assuming there is a good sound system and a good sound man, one solution is for the musicians to come half an hour ahead of time (has happened once, in my life time!) and check too, by being at the receiving end where the audience is seated.
Those who sing for movies seem to be very particular but the
end result is a no winner. Is it because the studio sound system is very different and they base their knowledge on that?
On a related note: if only they would make it a point to attend others' concerts and be among the audience, the sound 'tyranny'
would slowly disappear too? (believe me, Jayaram, your adjective fits in perfectly here)...-
rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Nick,
I am sure you are aware of how some artists have come up with the best stage setting for themselves. This was something I learned only recently, and actually if you go to www.mynta.net (yes, the same site I posted regarding the fusion of Nordic Ice and Indian Spice), halfway down the home page is a stageplot frame - when you click on it, it brings up how they want the mikes and other things set up for each of their members a very nice self explanatory diagram...Would it help if CM artists came up with something like this as well?
Ravi
I am sure you are aware of how some artists have come up with the best stage setting for themselves. This was something I learned only recently, and actually if you go to www.mynta.net (yes, the same site I posted regarding the fusion of Nordic Ice and Indian Spice), halfway down the home page is a stageplot frame - when you click on it, it brings up how they want the mikes and other things set up for each of their members a very nice self explanatory diagram...Would it help if CM artists came up with something like this as well?
Ravi
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
As for the lights, it is an easier problem to solve, I think. Yes, a lighted auditorium means the performers can see the audience.
Lighting for the stage? Not too bright that the glare of the lights make them wince. In a concert I went to, the stage was too brightly lit and the audience were in the dark. The violinist--obviously looking for someone in the audience had a hard time searching!
Lighting for the stage? Not too bright that the glare of the lights make them wince. In a concert I went to, the stage was too brightly lit and the audience were in the dark. The violinist--obviously looking for someone in the audience had a hard time searching!
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Nick H
- Posts: 9474
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Yes.. it is the sound men that have made my nerves raw! 
Arasi, I agree that it might improve the attitudes and practices of the musicians if they attended more concerts. In a frank conversation with my own teacher ion this subject I once comment that, yes, he had decades of experience on stage, but in the last five years I had sat in many more audiences than he had!
The stage layout for carnatic music is so fixed --- I guess it has been the same for decades or longer? that the plot would only help those theatres who are unused to staging our music. I mentioned provincial UK theatres before: In them I have often found young, enquiring minds with technical training and qualifications who will do their level best (no pun intended [Blush]) to make a good show. They are less likely to fall for the foot-touching anything-you-say-sir stuff as well!
Arasi, I agree that it might improve the attitudes and practices of the musicians if they attended more concerts. In a frank conversation with my own teacher ion this subject I once comment that, yes, he had decades of experience on stage, but in the last five years I had sat in many more audiences than he had!
The stage layout for carnatic music is so fixed --- I guess it has been the same for decades or longer? that the plot would only help those theatres who are unused to staging our music. I mentioned provincial UK theatres before: In them I have often found young, enquiring minds with technical training and qualifications who will do their level best (no pun intended [Blush]) to make a good show. They are less likely to fall for the foot-touching anything-you-say-sir stuff as well!
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
With so much of commercial recordings being done, the artists should have got educated in this aspect. But many a times we see (hear!) artists singing swars looking at the mridangist and suddenly swinging back towards the mic. Poor acoustics and inability of the artists to get the best out of the sound system are the major reasons for a concert not making the mark.nick H wrote:Many a musician, including seniors, has no concept that the microphone should be pointing at them, or their instrument, or that it will not pick up any sound when they are turning to face the violinist or mridangist (this is the real use of multiple mics). They think also that they can give emphasis by increaing their volume, and coming right up to the mic --- don't they realise that this gives a huge overload to the system and to our ears out there in the audience?
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jayaram
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- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
I remember CMC (Carnatic Music Circle) in Melbourne used to do thorough audio check before every concert and would not accede to every little request from the musicians on stage. Ah yes, and they would start concerts very promptly! (perhaps this is topic for another thread?)
Hi Nick, Balaji who played mridangam for the violin concert I attended at Univ of London was mentioning you. Looks like I missed the opportunity to meet you! Do make sure to drop us a line when you are in Old Blighty next.
Talking about lights, I was at a mridangam arangetram recently. (btw, they do have elaborate arangetrams here - I am told they spend upwards of £20,000 for these 'shows'! by bringing famous artistes from India who 'accompany' them - again, that's another topic!)
The whole hall was in pitch darkness, and the stage light would come on gradually between each piece - such a bizarre experience. The only good point was I could get to listen to some excellent flute/gottuvadyam - the balahamsa piece (see 'balahamsa' thread) I heard was at this recital. I felt so suffocated sitting in that darkness, but no-one else seemed to mind!
Another pet peeve of mine is the raga announcement before each piece - this seems to be becoming the norm at concerts here of late. To me it takes away the whole enjoyment of a kutcheri. I requested the violin duo (at another concert) to announce after each piece and they consented.
Gosh, so many tyranny topics to go, and so little time...(by the way Arasi, tyranny is a noun, not an adjective! )
Hi Nick, Balaji who played mridangam for the violin concert I attended at Univ of London was mentioning you. Looks like I missed the opportunity to meet you! Do make sure to drop us a line when you are in Old Blighty next.
Talking about lights, I was at a mridangam arangetram recently. (btw, they do have elaborate arangetrams here - I am told they spend upwards of £20,000 for these 'shows'! by bringing famous artistes from India who 'accompany' them - again, that's another topic!)
The whole hall was in pitch darkness, and the stage light would come on gradually between each piece - such a bizarre experience. The only good point was I could get to listen to some excellent flute/gottuvadyam - the balahamsa piece (see 'balahamsa' thread) I heard was at this recital. I felt so suffocated sitting in that darkness, but no-one else seemed to mind!
Another pet peeve of mine is the raga announcement before each piece - this seems to be becoming the norm at concerts here of late. To me it takes away the whole enjoyment of a kutcheri. I requested the violin duo (at another concert) to announce after each piece and they consented.
Gosh, so many tyranny topics to go, and so little time...(by the way Arasi, tyranny is a noun, not an adjective!
)
Last edited by jayaram on 14 Oct 2006, 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
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jayaram
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A side observation: The term 'Old Blighty' seems to have originated from our own 'vilayati/bilayati'Hi Nick, Balaji who played mridangam for the violin concert I attended at Univ of London was mentioning you. Looks like I missed the opportunity to meet you! Do make sure to drop us a line when you are in Old Blighty next.
Apologies for the digression
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Nick H
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- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Jayaram, yes, it is the London Sri Lankan tradition to spend this mony in tens of thousands of pounds: Of course, the halls are expensive, but it has become quite an industry and supports many of the local musicians as well as those visitors from India. I'm given to understand that dance teachers do particularly well out of it! I'm also given to understand that it has replaced marriage as the big function that the parents can spend on, as the parents do not necesarily expect their children to have a traditional wedding.
As the last point of my digression: I assume you mean M Balachandar ---he is my guruji and friend of a decade or so.
The lighting effect that you describe sounds bizare: for a dance performance, yes it could be very nice and appropriate. For music it seems wierd. I guess there is some aspect of experimenting going on. These events often take place in theatres: if there are nobs to twiddle, people will twiddle nobs!
Which brings us back to sound. The twiddling of nobs, and the playing with gadgets.
As I understand it, the ideal auditorium would be absolutely dead, in the sense that there would be no echo whatsoever. Anyone noticed that sound engineers love to introduce echo? Grrrrr....!
This happens in the studio too, and one of my greatest musical heros is a prime offender! I assume it is down to him, rather than his engineers, as it seems to be a feature of several of his CDs ---- I have Balamuralikrishna recordings I canot listen to as the added echo/reverb is so utterly irritating.
As another sideline: One thing I really miss is the respect that the London Tamil audiences have for the musicians. Chatting is rare, the thani is enjoyed by the whole audience.... but I'm unlikely, Indian visa authorities allowing, to be back in London for many months.
As the last point of my digression: I assume you mean M Balachandar ---he is my guruji and friend of a decade or so.
The lighting effect that you describe sounds bizare: for a dance performance, yes it could be very nice and appropriate. For music it seems wierd. I guess there is some aspect of experimenting going on. These events often take place in theatres: if there are nobs to twiddle, people will twiddle nobs!
Which brings us back to sound. The twiddling of nobs, and the playing with gadgets.
As I understand it, the ideal auditorium would be absolutely dead, in the sense that there would be no echo whatsoever. Anyone noticed that sound engineers love to introduce echo? Grrrrr....!
This happens in the studio too, and one of my greatest musical heros is a prime offender! I assume it is down to him, rather than his engineers, as it seems to be a feature of several of his CDs ---- I have Balamuralikrishna recordings I canot listen to as the added echo/reverb is so utterly irritating.
As another sideline: One thing I really miss is the respect that the London Tamil audiences have for the musicians. Chatting is rare, the thani is enjoyed by the whole audience.... but I'm unlikely, Indian visa authorities allowing, to be back in London for many months.
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arasi
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- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Jayaram,
Not bad, I get to polish up my grammar too on the Forum, don't I? I would call it a senior moment. But wait, the word tyranny--thanks to you--has been promoted to be a noun! You have elevated the adjective and invested it with importance. Hope your next one for a thread heading would be a sweet one...
Not bad, I get to polish up my grammar too on the Forum, don't I? I would call it a senior moment. But wait, the word tyranny--thanks to you--has been promoted to be a noun! You have elevated the adjective and invested it with importance. Hope your next one for a thread heading would be a sweet one...
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kumaran.nadesan
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jayaram
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jayaram
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Nick, I was referring to Balaji, who is a young mridangam player (he knows you). I do know Balachander the mridangam teacher. In fact, recently Guruvayur Dorai was at the Bhavan and together they conducted a layam workshop - unfortunately I couldn't attend it.As the last point of my digression: I assume you mean M Balachandar ---he is my guruji and friend of a decade or so.
I agree with you, these sound guys sit in some godforsaken corner of the auditorium and they have no clue what the audience is hearing, plus communicating to them is a herculean task in itself. Many a time I have run back and forth between the stage and the audio room (the 'ivory tower') to convey messages (mostly it is 'Turn the &*%$ volume down'!).
Strange world we live in, where simplicity is discarded in favor of complexity, with disastrous results. Which is why I prefer the house concert with no mikes, and an intimate atmosphere.
And I hope those Indian authorities get really strict with you & send you back to London soon...Nah, just kidding!!As another sideline: One thing I really miss is the respect that the London Tamil audiences have for the musicians. Chatting is rare, the thani is enjoyed by the whole audience.... but I'm unlikely, Indian visa authorities allowing, to be back in London for many months.
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jayaram
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- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
Another digression...
Nick, I am interested in hearing about your experiences as a westerner immersing yourself into South Indian music and culture. Apparently Jon Higgins had transformed himself into a 'pukka' bhagavathar, betel leaves and all!
Perhaps this is another topic...
(just started 'Western Bhagavathar' thread...)
Nick, I am interested in hearing about your experiences as a westerner immersing yourself into South Indian music and culture. Apparently Jon Higgins had transformed himself into a 'pukka' bhagavathar, betel leaves and all!
Perhaps this is another topic...
(just started 'Western Bhagavathar' thread...)
Last edited by jayaram on 18 Oct 2006, 16:17, edited 1 time in total.