Saint Tyagaraja's revenge

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Oct 2006, 08:17

Multidimenasional does not mean it includes everything! CM has a clear structure. It has its own grammar; it has a wealth of compositions; it has an organized form of rendering; it has a protocol; ...
Any of these aspects or dimensions can be adopted into other systems of music. But that of course will not make them CM automatically. For that matter we cannot designate Fusion Music as CM.
Perhaps an analogy will help. Hinduism is a very tolerant religion. There are a number of Gods. Hence inclusion of 'Jesus' or 'Allah' into its pantheon is not outrageous. In fact even Buddha was inducted into the pantheon and was accepted by a few centuries ago. If however Hiduism were to lose its identity and gets exploited then such an extension is contemptible.

CM is inclusive and is evolving over the years. But we have to foster the transition without losing the fundamental cultural base which happens to be 'Hindu-based' whether we like it or not!

kkumar29 · Post by **kkumar29** » 06 Oct 2006, 10:55

Cml,

You have articulated quite well the point I was driving at. CM can be inclusive retaining its structure, forms of rendering and its protocol but should not become exclusive. We should be open minded enough to include compositions that cover all the rasas (navarasas) as long as they adhere to the grammer, forms of rendering, protocol and the existing norms. My point was that too much stress only on the bhakthi aspect alone might keep innovators away.

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 06 Oct 2006, 22:57

Thyagaraja Aradhanas do serve a purpose although the returns are not immediate. My son is 13 years old and has been a regular at Thyagaraja Aradhanas and recently started attending music competitions. One day , during a dinner conversation at the table, we were listening to Musiri's Pahi Ramachandra Raghava in Yadukulakambhoji. I do not know what made him blurt out but he said. "Mom if I have another birth, I would like to be born a Hindu and would like to learn carnatic music in depth". I was very surprised to hear this from him. He is not a musical genius by any means but the sincerity of his emotion was obvious. This level of understanding and appreciation of carnatic music did not come easy. In the early years, I had to bribe him with small treats to stick to music and it now appears that music will always be a part of his life whether I am around or not. Not every kid attending every Thyagaraja aradhana will be serious about music, but who are we to say when a light bulb switches on in our brain and our approach completely changes. In my own case, I grew up in an atmosphere of music and learnt veena upto 8 th grade but quit thereafter, but I now am coming back to enjoying music in my middle ages. The sheer joy I derive from listening to carnatic music cannot be derived from any other source. Not all human beings are at the same level of musical evolution at any point in time. Let kids sing off key or on key. You never know at which point in time in their lives, they will take to music seriously or learn to appreciate it. Yes, there are parents who only listen to their kids perform, they do come dressed in silks and video camera in hand, but ultimately if even one or two kids learn to genuinely appreciate our music and culture, the thyagaraja aradhana will have served its purpose. Let us not throw out the baby with the bath water!!:)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Oct 2006, 04:43

Nadhasudha,
Your post pleased me no end. You are the kind of parent and your son is the kind of child who happen to be in the majority. Forget the video-wielding (I have no problem about a bit of unobtrusive footage) aggressively pushing parents. They are in the minority. All the furor about celebrating festivals and performing pujas and going to the temple should, in my view, be a MEANINGFUL part of the fabric of the culture we weave--either at home or living abroad. The arts play a big part in it. The emotional expression of your son is a proof of a well-adjusted child who grows up with two cultures and is enabled by his parents to be richer in his cultural life. You are not driving him to be the best ( or else!)
Please! We don't need to expect excellence and nothing but excellence in their trying to learn music. After all, if all of them could give concerts, who will be there to listen to them? One more thing to remember: if they learn to appreciate and enjoy music, it will never go away. They may pick it up later and enjoy learning once again and who knows? They may pass it on to the next generation...

Again, isn't rasana an essential part of culture?
The children I see in some concerts fill my heart with happiness with their total involvement and happy faces...

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 07 Oct 2006, 05:17

arasi wrote:Very interesting concert. Something to think about here. A german has written songs in malayalam and a padre sings it in the carnatic mode. A muslim plays the violin and a hindu is
percussionist. What a statement about unity! We were not there to experience the concert. Should we as rasikas question the quality of the concert or just feel good that in music, iimagined barriers melt away?
Vedanayakam Pillai's kritis come to mind...

Seems like he has solid credentials - has also learned under Bangalore Krishnamurthy and TRS:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/fr/2 ... 580400.htm

Tanjavur Abraham Panditar is considered an erudite Carnatic musicologist who was also of Christian background.

As someone here said, music is inclusive, not divisive.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Oct 2006, 06:51

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 07 Oct 2006, 12:10

Dear Mr. Jayaram, Thanks a lot for bringing (reproducing) out such a nice article which should scrupulously be followed by each and every musician. Very well, still another hilarious joke: Very early in the morning on the first Aaradhana
day of Saint Thagaraja the first trip of a dozen buses left from Thanjavur to go to Thiravaiyyar each with very heavy load, of course. Generally, at that time, every passenger, being a musician or music-lover, is interested in participating in the early Pacharatna-seva and nobody wants to return. So, again from Thiruvayyar all these buses return only with the Driver and Conductor in each Bus but without any passengers at all. But, abruptly, one passenger came ruuning after the last bus and got into it. Then, the conductor of the bus asked him surprisingly.
Con: While each and everybody, at this time, is trying his level best to get into one bus or the other to attend the Pancharatna-seva at Thiruvaiyyar, who are you trying to run away from this place at this time?
Passenger: Having become unable to listen to the chaotic music sung by all these musicians together in this Pacharatna-seva, except running way what better can I do! My name is Thyagaraja.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 07 Oct 2006, 13:51

cmlover,
Your interpretation with CM and the hinduism is perfect 10 for me. Apart from Vishnu sahasranAmam being evangalized , last week when I tuned the tv in the morning . I was hearing one of the popular christian evangelist sermon speach and surprising I did hear a superb violin instrumental music of a popular thyagarAjar krithi in the background.

i would recommend you to hear a cd of swami dayananda saraswati of coimbatore(bho sambho fame) speach . I heard once few months before in chennai , I was enthralled and he calls a spade a spade.
http://www.arshavidya.org/teachers_SWAMIJI.html

Can you also pass your opinion on thread #43, if you feel it makes sense. Either way is fine.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 07 Oct 2006, 14:21

The following story (quoted by MV Ramana) provides a telling commentary on the obsession with lyrics:

Importance of Lyrics - the Zamorin story
With regard to the current thread(s) on the importance of sAhityA and lyricide, I thought the following story from "Facets of Indian Culture" by R.Srinivasan may be of interest. This is in chapter 8 of Part 1 which is entitled "Stories and Anecdotes".
"There was a Zamorin at Calicut who was fond of music and had also a good knowledge of the art. He used to patronise deserving musicians and give them rich presents. Once a great pallavi vidwan happened to go to Calicut; the Private Secretary to the Zamorin, himself a rasika, arranged for a concert by the vidwan at the palace.

The Zamorin had one weakness he would ask the artist to give beforehand the wording of the song he proposed to sing. When the vidwan had elaborated a raga and was about to begin the pallavi the Zamorin made his usual demand.

The vidwan got wild : he shouted "Which fool would care about the sahitya of a pallavi?" and went away from the palace.

The Zamorin also got angry. The Private Secretary was a tactful man; he pacified the two and arranged for a recital the next day : he had managed to get the Zamorin to waive his stipulation regarding the wording of the pallavi. The vidwan started the pallavi and elaborated it with such mastery and skill and charm that the Zamorin was highly pleased and made extra presents to the vidwan.

When, however the artist was about to leave the palace, the Zamorin asked him to give the wording of the pallavi atleast then. The vidwan faced the Zamorin and said, "I am prepared to give you the sahitya on the condition that you will not get angry."

The Zamorin agreed to the condition, and the vidwan gave him the sahitya, and immediately ran away. The Zamorin was taken aback, and got into a rage, but he could not do anything as the vidwan had in the meantime run away. The sahitya was SAMOODIRI THAVIDU THINNU meaning that the Zamorin ate the chaff, the implication being that instead of enjoying the pure art of music, the Zamorin was after the words which especially in a pallavi was as insignificant as the chaff as compared the the grain."

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Oct 2006, 21:13

Only if the entire concert consisted of a pallavi!
Then again, there are rasikAs who frown upon even the inclusion of a pallavi in a regular concert

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 08 Oct 2006, 09:43

Importance of Lyrics - the Zamorin story

Hemanatha Bhagavathar parampara.

svara jAti mUrchana bhEdamul
svAntam(a)ndu teliyaka(y)uNDina
vara rAga layajnulu tAmanucu
vadarEr(a)yya

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Oct 2006, 10:12

sa mudrita viDati nu | = samudri taviDa tinu
sa = he
mudrita = stamped (or carrying his stamp)
viDati = cries out
nu = indeed!

He cries out (in his characteristic way) indeed!
If the vidvan knew sahityam (and was a scholar too!) he need not run away

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Oct 2006, 20:44

Jayaram,
There is a world of difference between what you call obsession with lyrics and the love for lyrics. Did our mothers and grandmothers sing just ArArO to us when we were babes or added loving words too to the lullabys? You wield the words very well to put forth your arguments. You surely would agree with me that words are powerful. Don't words add more power to a musical performance? To call sAhityA tyranny or by whatever milder word you want to call it--makes me wonder. What is the plac of poetry and literature in culture, for that matter?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Oct 2006, 20:56

vgvindan wrote:
Importance of Lyrics - the Zamorin story
Hemanatha Bhagavathar parampara.

svara jAti mUrchana bhEdamul
svAntam(a)ndu teliyaka(y)uNDina
vara rAga layajnulu tAmanucu
vadarEr(a)yya

doesnt the meaning of this highlight the importance of fundamentals of music (swara, jati, mUrcana) and not that of sAhitya? Unless i am mistaken, this is not the right example to use for highlighting the importance of sahitya/sahitya-suddham (although i would presuma that tyAgarAja took those as a given

).

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Oct 2006, 20:58

arasi
Good point! Especially the 'thaalaaTTu' aspect. The sedation effect of nIlambari is primarily due to these word associations and is language-culture-bound!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Oct 2006, 21:04

Yes, Arun, tyAgarAjA took it as a given--
It is all in the interpretation. For example, when he says 'nidura nirAgarinchi...suswaramutO', it does not mean he advocates sleeplessness at all times! He means 'instead of laziness or sleeping in the afternoons'. Could also mean 'to be wakeful at all times both in body and spirit'...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Oct 2006, 21:17

The gist of vararAgalaya is tyAgaraja's scorn at "experts in music" who dont know aspects of music such as swara, jati and mUrchana (as in the aspects of raga i.e. specifically the musical conceptss). One can interpret to include sAhitya there to one's favour, but IMO that is a stretch at least strictly confining to that krithi - because even without that the meaning implied is weighty and a subject on its own

.

Also, do you see the irony in quoting that example here in this particular context

;). Not that i favor foregoing (sp?) lyrical felicity nor improper pronounciation (as i have made clear earlier) but the irony is a bit funny.

Arun

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 08 Oct 2006, 21:20

The sedation effect of nIlambari is primarily due to these word associations and is language-culture-bound!

Really? It's the Nilambari ragam that does the magic. Try singing the same sahitya in, say, Begada, and see if it can induce sleep!

I remember Vedavathi Prabhakar sang the Annamacharya lullaby 'Jo achutananda' (in Navaroz) at SV temple Pittsburgh - it was so soothing, half the audience were dozing off! And I can assure you, very few of us knew Telugu.

A few lovely lullabies at the following site:
http://www.devotionalsongs.com/sri_krishna.htm

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 08 Oct 2006, 21:30

arasi wrote:Jayaram,
There is a world of difference between what you call obsession with lyrics and the love for lyrics. Did our mothers and grandmothers sing just ArArO to us when we were babes or added loving words too to the lullabys? You wield the words very well to put forth your arguments. You surely would agree with me that words are powerful. Don't words add more power to a musical performance? To call sAhityA tyranny or by whatever milder word you want to call it--makes me wonder. What is the plac of poetry and literature in culture, for that matter?

Arasi - I love lyrics too. I enjoy reading poetry, have written some myself. The point I keep underscoring is that to enjoy music to the fullest extent one should not get hung up on words. The tyranny that I talk about is what that lady exhibited in the anecdote that someone posted earlier.

Poetry and literature do have their place, as does music.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Oct 2006, 21:32

jayaram,

to me, it comes of as tyranny only if we dont fess up to the extent of the mistakes made. If the mistakes are gross, then we shouldnt be surprised if some of the reaction is harsh (even if our mistakes are uninitentional). We shouldnt use the tone of the reaction as fodder to justify that the mistakes werent that bad either.

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Oct 2006, 21:51

Arun,
I go along with you when you say that while glaring mistakes can be pointed out, trivial mistakes better not be overplayed in ANY aspect of music. Overall, the concern is that the quality of music doesn't suffer. When I am not an extremist in advocating one aspect of music or one particular language, I have come across to some as a champion of sAhiytA. Reason? When extreme views are expressed, the other aspects of music are orphaned and you need to speak for them! And I love words, on top of it!

Jayaram,
I am happy you are a poet too! Hope your creations don't include an invective on the tyranny of sAhityA

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 08 Oct 2006, 21:53

And - I have yet to come across a single non-Malayalam singer who can render a Malayalam kriti correctly, sahitya-wise. E.g. they sing 'karuna sheivaan' (with a strong Tamil accent!) when it is 'karuna cheivaan'. And I won't even bother talking about their (mis)pronunciation of words like 'Njan' etc. But does that mean their singing is any less beautiful? Definitely not.

I hope the Telugu-ites out there are listening!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Oct 2006, 22:46

Jayaram

eons ago when Burma was part of british India my dad was working for the British. My mother who had a very sweet voice was lulling my brother to sleep late night and he would respond to the mother's tenderness. About the third night as this happened somebody pounded the door and my dad opened the door. A burly Burmese was standing who shouted 'what is this cacophony? don't we have to sleep?' My dad explained that the song (raga) would induce sleep in the child. He exclaimed ' Oh ya! Not in me! I don't understand a syllable; if she doesn't know Burmese, why doesn't she sing a nice Lullaby!'

Again in my view there is much less of a massacre of malayalam than of Telugu among TN vidvans

if ever Thyagaraja decides to take revenge it will be for the lapses in the language (anarthaM) than ever for the lapses in shruti!

Recently Vairamuthu in a talk mentioned how a 'non-tamil' singer was singing his lyric as ' nI enakku anniyarallavO' (you are a stranger to me!) whereas he had written 'nI enakku aNNiyallavO' (you are to me my older brother's wife). He said that he was so enraged that he felt like 'murdering' the singer

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Oct 2006, 01:43

CML,
I remember your writing a fantasy tale about Bharathi. Here is mine about the satguru...

*How tyAgarAjA's sAhityam Became Our Bounty*

tyAgarAjA kept singing his heart out to rAmA. His voice drew folks to his portal like a magnet. He sang praises to his ishta daivam--not in telugu; not even in tamizh which was his second language. Those who heard him felt the divinity that made him sing. Yet, they wanted more. "Why don't you let us hear your noble feelings in words, tyAgayyA? You sing only in rAgAs and swarAs. When are we going to hear your glorious praises and pleas to rAmA in words and partake in your feelings?" Their requests had no effect and he went on singing rapturously.
Some brought sheaves of palm leaves with their plea. At least, write them down for us, they said, to no avail.
One day, a young child came crawling into his house, drawn by the music. Even in his nadOpAsanA, tyAgayyA noticed the child's absorption in his music. One of the villagers suddenly burst out: Don't you see? When this child grows up and you and I are not here, how is all the rAma rasA that you share with us going to stay around here? We are only mortals. The dEvAs may transcribe your gAnAmrutA in their memory and live for ever, enjoying it. Or, they may even have a yantrA to preserve it all for them

. What about mere human beings who need rAma gAnA more than those elevated dEvAs?
The child looked meaningfully into tyAgayyA's eyes (my! It's not a krishnA story otherwise I could say HE came in the child's guise!).
tyAgayyA came out of his trance.
'bhajana sEyavE, O manasA', he sang out and words came pouring out of him. There was no stopping him.
That is how it all came about that we now have rAma kathA sudhA rasam.

pAnam seyya vArIr...tyAgarAja swAmi namakkaLiththa amuda pAnam seyya vArIr.

kallu sakkarE koLLIrO

rAm nAm guN gAn sabkE hO!

CML, an apt sanskrit verse, please...

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 09 Oct 2006, 02:26

Please see the new topic on Kanchi Periyavaal:
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=23542#p23542

I won't comment much more on sahityam here (although I am itching to!).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Oct 2006, 20:12

arasi

A nice interpretation! I will work on it! It probably happened but was not recorded in history!

If I have the 'right' patient I would have him on the couch, hypnotize him and get the facts directly from Thyagaraja

hsuvarna · Post by **hsuvarna** » 09 Oct 2006, 23:29

St Tyagaraja's revenge, The tyranny of sahityam, boy, what headings.....What next?

Thanks for posting the article by Sri Kanchi Paramachaarya. I hope the message is laid down clearly.

For long time, I was searching the connection between serpants and Sri Murugan. Whether Subramanya means Kumara Swamy or NaagaDeva. Sri Parama Aachaarya's explanation about Sri Subramanya Namaste told it all. Really thanks for posting this.

Regarding, CM being inclusive: Just like Hindu culture, it also has been accomodating and is trying to accomodate. I think some years ago, there was no hindi bhajans of meera bai or surdaas in a concert. Slowly our vidwans recognised the essense of these songs and started singing them even they are not really CM. I think even thillanaas are like that I guess. Some vidwaans started mixing hindustani style too as a decoration. Besides Bhakti rasa, Sringaara is always part of music like jaavali's, khetrayya padaalu or jayadeva's lyrics. Ofcourse, it appears sringara, but the hidden message is evident in all these lyrics.
If someone wanted to compose non-bhakti songs, they are welcome. You have raga structure, tala structure. You are free to add/delete songs about your own interest.
New instruments like mandolin, saxophone, guitar, keyboard playing CM to the extent they can.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 10 Oct 2006, 01:39

Dear cmlover, What a nice thought of 'Vatapi Sarasvathim Bhajeham'! Excellent! Extremely nice! Thanks a lot!!! amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 10 Oct 2006, 02:03

Dear Mr.rrao13, Very nice report indeed! I feel happy and proud to be Indian for the spiritual back ground brought out by our great Trinity through their gems of compositions attracting the parents and their kids at the same time to attend the concerts and scribble down the notes of the proceedings. True! We are having abundant talent in our kids which should be tapped out, nourished and encouraged. Efficient teachers of our community must strive hard to do this. amsharma.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Oct 2006, 03:32

arasi!

Here is a dramatized dream story that I wrote a few years ago! Though some may have read it at sangeetham (which is now defunct) I am just reposting since it may be of interest to some of you!

......

It was a very hot day. I had just turned on my tape-player and started listening to GNB singing the ever-popular Samajavaragamana in Hindolam. I did not have the AC on as per the advice of my colleagues since it would aggravate my allergies(and also to conserve power after the current blackout); but instead had the fan on. The whir of the fan distorted the voice of GNB and introduced almost a new gamaka prayOgam at the high-pitched 'yaadavakula muralI..' Having recently visited Arun's music site I started wondering how it would sound sung by Brindamma with the distortion produced by the fan. I started furiously calculating whether the fast briga of Brindamma would be anywhere like those of GNB....

I suddenly woke up and was feeling quite hungry and went running to my mother who appeared getting ready to go out. She was wearing the traditional sari (18 yards typical brahmin style) and the saffron kumkum on her forehead was illuminating her face like a beacon. I curled up to my mom and asked lispingly for something to eat. She made a stern face and admonished : 'Naanu! nOkku pooNool pOttachchu ! NI inimElE chinnapayyan illay ( you had your upanayanam and you are no longer a small boy)'. She added as usual how at my age my great grandfather could recite all the 24000 shlOkAs of Valmiki Ramayana while I was still keen on playing 'pANdy' with little kids. I kept quiet since I knew she was getting ready to go somewhere and would stop. Instead she said 'you come with me right now to Bhaagavathar maama's house since there was an important pooja and there will be prasaadam after the pooja'. I knew who she meant since Thyaagu maama (that was what the elders called him) was a great singer and there always was a festival atmosphere in his house. My mother who had a melodious voice would often sing his songs with great devotion. But I never understood a word of it since it was all in Telugu and I did not even know Tamil too well though I was making an attempt to learn vedas in sanskrit at the paaTashaalai. Once when I asked my mother why the maama was singing in Telugu while he could speak brahmin tamil very well my mother responded:'athu avaraa paadaRaar. Saakshaat naadabrammaamE illaya avarOdu naakkile irunthu gaanam varshikkaRaa' (Is it he who is singing? It is the divine 'naadabrahmam' who is pouring out the melody using his tongue).

I silently followed my mother to the small house in the middle of thirumanjanam veedhi. Though it was small it was very clean and as we entered the house the sweet smell of 'saampraaNi' (joss sticks) filled the atmosphere. Already quite a few people had assembled some of whom I knew were always with the maama probaly his shishyas.Right in the middle of rEzhi (the hall) was a small vighraha (idols) of Rama, Sita and Lakshmana which were completely covered with flower garlands. The bhaagavathar maama was seated in front of the vigraham and appeared almost to be in talking communion with the deity. Suddenly we heard the temple bells of the panchanadeeswarar koil (temple) ringing to indicate the start of the pooja. I was hoping that the pooja will finish soon so that I would get the prasaadam to appease my hunger.

There was some commotion at the front and I saw an angry looking elderly man walking in, shouting vehemently in Telugu. Bhaagavathar suddenly got out of his trance and turned towards him. We all knew that the elderly man was his brother Jeppu maaama who always looked for trouble. I quietly whispered to my mother and asked what was happening. My mother said that Jeppu maama was asking that one of his paathram (vessel) was in bhagavathar's house and he wanted it back. Bhaagavathar said something quietly which though I did'nt understand but knew that he was gesturing him to take whatever he liked from the house. Since others were also getting upset jeppu maama knew that it was not the right time and shouted again some abuses and briskly walked out. I saw a pained look on the eyes of bhaagavathar maama. Suddenly his eyes glistened. Before I knew I saw two drops of tears rolling down his cheek. For some reason the oil lamp in front of the vighraham burned bright. Bhaagavathar took his Tambura and in a clear voice filled with pathos started singing 'giripai nelakonna raamuni..'. There was pindrop silence since all eyes were focussed on him. I suddenly blurted out loudly 'sahaana'. The spell was broken and all eyes turned towards me. Bhagavathar stopped and looked at me kindly and said 'ambi nOkku eppidi theriyum' (Boy how do you know?). My mother was embarassed and asked me: What happened to you.? you know no music and how do you know?.. I got excited and said: Yes it is 'MDR ippadiththaan paaduvaar' (MDR will sing like this). Now my mother was totally upset and she sarted shaking me shouting 'pilaaththaathe' (dont prattle).

I suddenly opened my eyes and was in a profuse sweat. The fan had stopped working since the power was gone and my emergency battery-operated light had come on. My eyes glanced at the mantelpiece where I had the old poorly-reprodued photograph of my mother. There was an unusual brilliance around her face as though she was trying to tell me something. My mind intoned: 'NaaNu, ippO theriyaRathaa, antha paattellam yaaru paadinaannu' (Do you now realize who sang all those songs?). I silently nodded my head.....

...........

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 10 Oct 2006, 03:57

CML,
Enjoyed your story LOL..

Now what is 18 yards sari?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Oct 2006, 04:49

suji

ask your mom

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 10 Oct 2006, 04:53

cmlover wrote:suji

ask your mom

It should be 9 yards

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 10 Oct 2006, 05:02

Yes 9 gaja (yards) or 18 moLa/muzham.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Oct 2006, 07:42

Sorry
I meant 18 muzham. Wrong translation

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Oct 2006, 08:31

cml,
Interpretation of dreams is not my field

(Isn't that so,
DRS?) Enjoyed the story (jeppu mAmA cheppu kETTu, cheppakuNDa chalamuthO senRA kathai). Waiting for your muththAyppu to my story...

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 10 Oct 2006, 10:23

Saakshaat naadabrammaamE illaya avarOdu naakkile irunthu gaanam varshikkaRaa' (Is it he who is singing? It is the divine 'naadabrahmam' who is pouring out the melody using his tongue).

Did I feel a current run down my spine?

We all knew that the elderly man was his brother Jeppu maaama who always looked for trouble. I quietly whispered to my mother and asked what was happening. My mother said that Jeppu maama was asking that one of his paathram (vessel) was in bhagavathar's house and he wanted it back.

Saint Thyagaraja has mentioned in his kritis about the problems he faced with his close relatives. But, I would put it that these were the privileged communication between him and his 'rasika zirOmaNi' zrI rAma. Somehow these kritis have come into popular usage and some times sound jarring in otherwise horripilation inducing kritis like 'mIvalla guNa dOSamEmi'. Can anyone draw on the privileged communication which one had with his advocate and doctor? brahmazrI TS Balakrishna Sastrigal in this 'Thyagaraja Charitram', states that zrI tyAgarAj's elder brother apologised for all his misdoings and became a devout person serving his younger brother later in life. My worry is that the surviving members of the family of elder brother of zrI tyAgarAja are being subjected to ignominy. A contemporary event seems to have been mummified unjustly.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 10 Oct 2006, 11:01

vgvindan wrote:his 'rasika zirOmaNi' zrI rAma.

This use of z is very confusing to read. Please refer to http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1205&p=3 and use the S, sh or s.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Oct 2006, 19:48

arasi

Not easy to finish off your thought chain. At this point my addition would be:
pibarE tyAgarAma rasaM rasanE!

vg

My info on the family problems (pa^NgALi chaNDai) of Thyagaraja comes mostly from listening to TSB as well as the odd writings of Sambamorthy. TSB mentions even a physical assault and Lord Rama offering to punish and Thyagaraja graciously requesting his progenies being spared any 'retaliations]. I would love to hear about the story that you may have garnered from the saints own words from your extensive literary search!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 10 Oct 2006, 21:33

In the following kRtis Sri Tyagaraja specifically mentions about his problems in the family -
nAdupai balikEru narulu - rAga madhyamAvati - regarding partitioning of house.
naLina lOcana - rAga madhyamAvati (caraNa 2) - cousins can never be satisfied.
nAyeDa vancana - rAga nabhOmaNi (anupallavi) - struggle with his cousins
eTula kApADuduvO - rAga Ahiri (caraNa 2) - bodily suffering in the hands of cousins
kanna talli - rAga sAvEri (caraNa 2) - relatives who speak ill - near relatives who come close only when there is wealth and not when one is poor.
A daya Sri Raghuvara - rAga Ahiri - which TSB explains as that pertaining to what you have mentioned - physical assault.
There are some other kRtis which I would be consolidating later.
If you want meanings of any or all these kRtis, please let me know.
My intention in writing is that many such kRtis where Sri Tyagaraja has made specific request to the Lord about his problems, should be handled carefully for two reasons - (1) the musician can never get into the bhAva because it is specific to one individual - (2) such kRtis, IMHO seems to perpetuate memory of some thing which Sri Tyagaraja himself would have forgiven and fogotten.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Oct 2006, 22:19

vg

Thanks

The meanings will be most helpful especially for the nontelugus like me.

These events and compositions depict the very human side of the saint! These frustrating squabbles occur in every family. Thyagaraja is no exception. They reveal to some extent his inner psyche. Instead of 'violence' he found a catharsis by singing compositions outlining the problems. Naturallly he was not invoking the deity to participate in solving his problems! As far as I can see he is never vindictive! For example in 'nE nEndu vetukudurA..' he is blaming himself than his brother who is the direct cause of his misery. Again there is no element of bitterness after he recovered his idols in 'kanugONTini..'.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Oct 2006, 22:26

vg,
Thank you for educating us. Yes, vocalists better not choose to sing these specific kritis, Still, in other kritis too, if they pay scant attention to tyAgayyA's feelings, the end result may not be emotive enough. Tastes differ, I agree. But to give an example, I heard Ariyalur Krishnan's singing which was posted yesterday. Accomplished, but to me, devoid of bhAvA--call it my quirk, but when we are on the subject of tyAgarAjA, I think had he sung without bhAvA and had not meant what his words wer all about, RAmA might not have appeared before him...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Oct 2006, 22:43

CML,
Thanks for the muththAyi