Hilarious article, appeared on the Vidyarthi website. One can empathise with the sentiments expressed.
Reproduced here with the author's permission:
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Saint Tyagaraja's revenge
- by Dr Ram S. Sriram
Recently, in Atlanta, we celebrated two days of Tyagaraja Aradhana and the noteworthy feature was obviously not the music. The first day was used by youngsters to display their singing talents. While the mothers attended the programme decked in their finest sarees and jewellery, the fathers, not to be outdone, showed up in jubba and kurta, dragging along with them expensive digital camcorders and paraphernalia so that they could film their childs “scintillating performance. After the child completed the one assigned song, the parents left home so that they can replay the childs performance on their VCRs. Listening to other performers or honoring the great composers was not on their agenda, except for me of course. As an organiser, I was a captive audience.
Four hours into the programme and after the umpteenth off-key singing, I am usually at my wits end; tired, depressed and futilely searching for an escape. Slowly, my eyes began wandering towards the portrait of Saint Tyagaraja on the stage. To my shock, I noticed that Tyagarja Swami was also staring at me and then, he began walking towards me. Great; now Im tired, depressed and hallucinating.
Seeing Tyagaraja Swami, I stand up; touch his feet and say, “Swami. My humble namaskaram.
“Why are you doing this to me? Did I ask you to celebrate aradhana? Wont you leave me in peace even after I attained moksha? Claiming to honor me, do you have to torture me like this? asks Swami.
“Swami. My sincere apology. We organise aradhana so that our younger generation will remember you and your message.
“Do you even know what my message is? asks Swami irritably. Without waiting for an answer, he continues, “In kriti after kriti, I pointed out that music is Nadopasana - bhakti and devotion. Do you remember the words, saptha swarmula gruhamula guruthe mokshamura? You should worship the pure sound emanating from within you and you should be in consonance with music.
“In Telisi Rama Chinthanatho, did I not point out that what the mind is meditating on is more important than the words? I stressed that it is not worth acquiring knowledge unless you use it for your emancipation. One who has not benefited from his erudition and knowledge is like a donkey carrying a load of books.
“I also showed you, through my compositions and personal conduct, that temptations must be reduced and we must live a simple life and be detached from wealth and possessions. I asked you to eschew egotism and adopt selflessness, modesty, vinaya and humility. Tyagaraja Swami shakes his head in distress.
I did not respond to the great bard since I was guilty as charged. I stood before him in shame.
Tyagaraja Swami continued. “Well, I am out of patience. I will deal with this problem myself. I will send a message that everyone in Carnatic music will remember and especially upstart organisers like you. Swami then walked towards a pillar and began speaking to the person behind the pillar. I looked up and saw the great Anjaneya standing there.
Tyagaraja, “Oh Vathathmaju residing in Sri Ramas heart. I seek your blessings. You know that I never once asked Sri Rama for a boon. I now seek it from you. Would you grant me the boon, mighty Anjaneya?
Anjaneya blesses Tyagaraja. “Oh learned Tyagaraja. No one deserves a boon more than you. Ask me and it will be granted. Thyagaraja speaks to Anjaneya out of my hearing.
A minute later, I saw Sri Anjaneya standing before me with his gadhai raised fully and pointing right at the center of my head, ready to strike.
I wake up from my brief nap drenched in sweat. I hear another participant on stage singing off-key.
I wish I had let Sri Anjaneya fulfil his boon to Tyagaraja. Maybe next year.
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Saint Tyagaraja's revenge
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Enjoyed the story. Does 'revenge' manifest itself in the next episode? Can't wait to see HanumAn in action...
Seriously, there are some among us who flaunt their wealth, display their culture and showcase their children in such a way which has nothing to do with music or any other form of cultural expression. The very culture they uphold eludes them. I pity their children...
Seriously, there are some among us who flaunt their wealth, display their culture and showcase their children in such a way which has nothing to do with music or any other form of cultural expression. The very culture they uphold eludes them. I pity their children...
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
IMHO this is not a 'hilarious' article. All the same, on reading this article, I sent an e-mail to the author of the article on 28/2/2006. I am reproducing hereunder a part of the mail.Hilarious article, appeared on the Vidyarthi website. One can empathise with the sentiments expressed
May Saint Thyagaraja Bless us allI can understand the pain in your heart because I have experienced the same pain - not in America but in Tiruvaiyaru and that too on the occasion of His Aradhana.
I had been in Central Service in India and had been roaming about mostly in North India for 40 years. Only after retirement, I thought I had the privilege of attending the great festival about which I had only heard. I reached there one day prior to the D Day.
As You enter the enter the samadhi, the first thing that strikes you the notice board - more than a samadhi of the great Saint, it is the property title that attracts you.
The inaugural function was carried out with much pomp and show and singers displaying their talents - I do not know whether there was any respect as to where they were performing. The security was more observable.
Come night, I thought I would spend my night in the pandal itself because I was told that people coming from outstations used to stay there overnight and after attending the Aradhana would return home. But that was not to be. After the music sesssion was over around 11 PM, the police drove everyone away. I could see old women taking shelter on the roadside on the wintry night.
More was in store for me. As I was entering the town that day, I could see posters condeming the function and criticising singing in Telugu. The opposing parties, in the name of 'Tamil Isai', organised a parallel function. Around 12 midnight, I hear film music coming from a pandal. What I saw was not to be forgotten throughout my life. It was none other than Kunnakkudi Vaidyanathan - the General Secretary of Thyagaraja Aradhana and Vice President - I do not remember his name - a nagasvara vidwan were entertaining the crowd there with film music.
That was the end of it - I decided that I had seen enough of Thyagaraja Aradhana and left Tiruvaiyaru without attending the chorus singing of Pancharatna Kritis. It is more than 7 years since this happened. I have not gone there, atleast during Aradhana, since then.
V Govindan
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
vgvindan,
What a sad tale! You were disillusioned beyond measure. I can empathize with you. When you have lived away from your culture--and have not been part of it as it gradually changes, the fervor that you carry with you gets shattered at that moment of return. You serve ThyAgarAjA better than most of them put together. I have been lucky and have always resisted my desire to go to ThiruvayAru for the festival. Those musicians who don't participate may have the same reasons as we have for not attending--to see ThyAgarAja when all is quite may be better for them than to be SEEN on the TV.
As for Sriram's story, it isn't much different. Humor heals and to speak of a hurt in a humorous way is cathartic. Isn't laughter the best medicine?
What a sad tale! You were disillusioned beyond measure. I can empathize with you. When you have lived away from your culture--and have not been part of it as it gradually changes, the fervor that you carry with you gets shattered at that moment of return. You serve ThyAgarAjA better than most of them put together. I have been lucky and have always resisted my desire to go to ThiruvayAru for the festival. Those musicians who don't participate may have the same reasons as we have for not attending--to see ThyAgarAja when all is quite may be better for them than to be SEEN on the TV.
As for Sriram's story, it isn't much different. Humor heals and to speak of a hurt in a humorous way is cathartic. Isn't laughter the best medicine?
Last edited by arasi on 29 Sep 2006, 20:05, edited 1 time in total.
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rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
I am here to take up cudgels in defense of the children maligned by Dr. Sriram. But before I do that, I first want to point out that there is a world of difference between the scenarios posted by Dr. Sriram, and the one that caused Sri Govindan a lot of anguish.
While I fully agree with Sri Govindan’s reactions, I have to point out that the people in Tiruvaiyaru were presumably performing, professional artists, and what is required of them, and the benchmark used to evaluate them should be, and is appropriately high. And their actions should be derided if inappropriate.
On the other hand, the performers referred to by Dr. Sriram are young kids who were presumably born and brought-up in the USA. These kids should be appreciated for what they are able to do so effortlessly and elegantly: be so fluidly bi-cultural, instead of nitpicking about what did not go right. The fact that they actually are aware of Sri Tyagaraja and do learn his compositions is what should be applauded. We should appreciate the fact that these activities of theirs take up so much of their time but do not impact their college applications or their 'real life' in school. On the other hand, if these kids stop participating in these activities, they may lose their identity. They can see and tell that even if they dress and speak like everyone else, they are different. The only way for them to feel the same is if we (the parenting adults) blended in COMPLETELY with the local populace (and yes! that means forgetting the existence tyAgarAjA, sAhitya, sAhitya police, oh, and even sAhitya/sAhitya-policeless music). So, until we ourselves evolve to reach that plane, these children will be forced to lead a bi-cultural existence. These activities help them bond with others in the same boat, and help them come to terms with who they are, and who knows, some of them will go on to becomes Rohans, Rajanas and and Kritikas. However, for the vast majority, these activities mean something very different, and they should be applauded, supported and nurtured, and not teased in a mean manner. As an ardent, and proud card carrying sAhitya policeman who cringes at ‘anubama guNAmbudE’ or ‘panDurIdi koluvIyavaiyya’ from professional musicians, I continue to be amazed and proud of the these kids who have the courage to go up to sing ‘shava shava samarzhaika dhIzhA’ or for that matter anything else. One has to have mulltiple standards - one for judging kids and another for adults and maybe even a third for practicing musicians - like one my friend’s fathers who was an examiner for both MBBS and MD exams back in India used to explain: at the MBBS level, you want a clear cut reason before you fail the person, while at the MD level, you have to have a very valid, and obvious reason to pass the individual. I am sure that the great Sri tyAgarAja, the very repository of magnanimity, the antaryAmi, will understand and appreciate and support these amazing kids.
Arasi, I agree that laughter can be a great medicine, and like all medications, it has a role to play only when indicated - used indiscriminately or inappropriately, it has the power to hurt and wound deeply. In any context, I can't say it better than kabIr: 'madhur vachan hai aushadI, katuk vachan hai tIr'. Healthy laughter maybe life affirming, but the mean kind is very corrosive.
Ravi
While I fully agree with Sri Govindan’s reactions, I have to point out that the people in Tiruvaiyaru were presumably performing, professional artists, and what is required of them, and the benchmark used to evaluate them should be, and is appropriately high. And their actions should be derided if inappropriate.
On the other hand, the performers referred to by Dr. Sriram are young kids who were presumably born and brought-up in the USA. These kids should be appreciated for what they are able to do so effortlessly and elegantly: be so fluidly bi-cultural, instead of nitpicking about what did not go right. The fact that they actually are aware of Sri Tyagaraja and do learn his compositions is what should be applauded. We should appreciate the fact that these activities of theirs take up so much of their time but do not impact their college applications or their 'real life' in school. On the other hand, if these kids stop participating in these activities, they may lose their identity. They can see and tell that even if they dress and speak like everyone else, they are different. The only way for them to feel the same is if we (the parenting adults) blended in COMPLETELY with the local populace (and yes! that means forgetting the existence tyAgarAjA, sAhitya, sAhitya police, oh, and even sAhitya/sAhitya-policeless music). So, until we ourselves evolve to reach that plane, these children will be forced to lead a bi-cultural existence. These activities help them bond with others in the same boat, and help them come to terms with who they are, and who knows, some of them will go on to becomes Rohans, Rajanas and and Kritikas. However, for the vast majority, these activities mean something very different, and they should be applauded, supported and nurtured, and not teased in a mean manner. As an ardent, and proud card carrying sAhitya policeman who cringes at ‘anubama guNAmbudE’ or ‘panDurIdi koluvIyavaiyya’ from professional musicians, I continue to be amazed and proud of the these kids who have the courage to go up to sing ‘shava shava samarzhaika dhIzhA’ or for that matter anything else. One has to have mulltiple standards - one for judging kids and another for adults and maybe even a third for practicing musicians - like one my friend’s fathers who was an examiner for both MBBS and MD exams back in India used to explain: at the MBBS level, you want a clear cut reason before you fail the person, while at the MD level, you have to have a very valid, and obvious reason to pass the individual. I am sure that the great Sri tyAgarAja, the very repository of magnanimity, the antaryAmi, will understand and appreciate and support these amazing kids.
Arasi, I agree that laughter can be a great medicine, and like all medications, it has a role to play only when indicated - used indiscriminately or inappropriately, it has the power to hurt and wound deeply. In any context, I can't say it better than kabIr: 'madhur vachan hai aushadI, katuk vachan hai tIr'. Healthy laughter maybe life affirming, but the mean kind is very corrosive.
Ravi
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
Ravi,
Providing Indian kids growing up in the west an opportunity to connect with our culture is a laudable thing. However, this should not mean they can go ahead and sing off-key & off-beat the great Tyagaraja kritis. I wonder if it is common practice for, say, an American child to get up on stage and sing a Puccini opera or a Mozart piece off-key. Let's use the same yardstick when it comes to our cultural events.
And you conveniently failed to address the related point about *adults* that Sriram made in his article. They almost always wait until their own child has 'performed' on stage, and promptly walk off with their video cameras and children in tow. Not sure if this is the culture you want to inculcate in our children!
These events have become more and more of a circus these days, and this is what Sriram was lamenting so much. And I can see why.
Providing Indian kids growing up in the west an opportunity to connect with our culture is a laudable thing. However, this should not mean they can go ahead and sing off-key & off-beat the great Tyagaraja kritis. I wonder if it is common practice for, say, an American child to get up on stage and sing a Puccini opera or a Mozart piece off-key. Let's use the same yardstick when it comes to our cultural events.
And you conveniently failed to address the related point about *adults* that Sriram made in his article. They almost always wait until their own child has 'performed' on stage, and promptly walk off with their video cameras and children in tow. Not sure if this is the culture you want to inculcate in our children!
These events have become more and more of a circus these days, and this is what Sriram was lamenting so much. And I can see why.
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ramsriram
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 03:47
I am posting this message not to defend myself against the comments of Sri Shankar. Sri Shankar is very correct; the young children growing up in Western countries should be appreciated for taking the effort to learn our music, art, and culture. I believe that if Saint Tyagaraja was present in the auditorium, he would have been tolerant of their occasional off-key singing and he would not have been upset by their singing his great compositions with a foreign accent. He would have blessed the youngsters nevertheless.
My original purpose in writing this column was to share with the parents the message that if we, as parents, want our children to truly understand our great culture and heritage, we must first portray the value of that culture and heritage by own behaviors and actions. Many of us, as youngsters, grew up in India and our parents had inculcated in us valuable qualities such as vinaya, bhakthi, and respect for others. It is time we pass on those great qualities to our next generation. What better way to do it than by our own conduct. Thank you and appreciate your patience. Ram Sriram
My original purpose in writing this column was to share with the parents the message that if we, as parents, want our children to truly understand our great culture and heritage, we must first portray the value of that culture and heritage by own behaviors and actions. Many of us, as youngsters, grew up in India and our parents had inculcated in us valuable qualities such as vinaya, bhakthi, and respect for others. It is time we pass on those great qualities to our next generation. What better way to do it than by our own conduct. Thank you and appreciate your patience. Ram Sriram
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Ravi,
Ah, there you are. I missed you at the sAhityA precinct...
You know my stand on this! Children who can learn the arts of the motherland of their PARENTS have to be lauded indeed. Away from the natural environment where the arts flourish, to take interest and devote time to something which is not in their natural suroundings is no mean feat. I said I pitied the children who had parents who were callous and discourteous at the contest. I wasn't there to know how many such parents were present. I have no end of admiration for parents here who are role models to children in being respectful of other children and of their learning; of those who encourage healthy competitiveness in them; of those who stay till the end. The parents came across as an insensitive lot in the essay. How many such were there? Did something pique Sriram? Or was it just that he got carried away with the humorous strain?
Jayaram,
While we pay scant attention to the pronounciation etc of pros in CM why should we expect perfection from children who have nothing much to draw from in an environment which has very little flavor of south India where CM flourishes? Do you suppose western kids growing up in Tiruchy or Tanjavur would learn to sing or play Mozart and Puccini (why Puccini?) perfectly? Well, starting from young Srivatsan playing for KVN, we see others blossoming along the way. And all children are great while they devote themselves to the arts of their parents' motherland.
Ravi,
Sorry, there were gaps in my communication. We love laughter. When it hurts, it is virus. At its worst it is poison...
Ah, there you are.
I missed you at the sAhityA precinct...You know my stand on this! Children who can learn the arts of the motherland of their PARENTS have to be lauded indeed. Away from the natural environment where the arts flourish, to take interest and devote time to something which is not in their natural suroundings is no mean feat. I said I pitied the children who had parents who were callous and discourteous at the contest. I wasn't there to know how many such parents were present. I have no end of admiration for parents here who are role models to children in being respectful of other children and of their learning; of those who encourage healthy competitiveness in them; of those who stay till the end. The parents came across as an insensitive lot in the essay. How many such were there? Did something pique Sriram? Or was it just that he got carried away with the humorous strain?
Jayaram,
While we pay scant attention to the pronounciation etc of pros in CM why should we expect perfection from children who have nothing much to draw from in an environment which has very little flavor of south India where CM flourishes? Do you suppose western kids growing up in Tiruchy or Tanjavur would learn to sing or play Mozart and Puccini (why Puccini?) perfectly? Well, starting from young Srivatsan playing for KVN, we see others blossoming along the way. And all children are great while they devote themselves to the arts of their parents' motherland.
Ravi,
Sorry, there were gaps in my communication. We love laughter. When it hurts, it is virus. At its worst it is poison...
Last edited by arasi on 30 Sep 2006, 04:50, edited 1 time in total.
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rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Jayaram,jayaram wrote:I wonder if it is common practice for, say, an American child to get up on stage and sing a Puccini opera or a Mozart piece off-key. Let's use the same yardstick when it comes to our cultural events.
Your arguement would have held water if we were comparing the tyAgarAja ArAdhana at marundIshwarar temple in tiruvAnmiyUr...if we want to compare children of Indian origin growing up in India, then we need to know if children of the US consulate staff at the USIS centers around the world tolerate their children singing Puccini off-key, or do they dream of Puccini exacting some revenge on them! And there are MANY kids of Indian origin who sing and play western classical music divinely, and they would not be up on stage if they did not. Singing or playing off key would not be tolerated there. And more to the point, the hours they put in to practice pays off in terms of easily understandable extra curricular credit. Anyway the point has been clarified by Ram in his message.
Ram,ramsriram wrote:My original purpose in writing this column was to share with the parents the message that if we, as parents, want our children to truly understand our great culture and heritage, we must first portray the value of that culture and heritage by own behaviors and actions. Many of us, as youngsters, grew up in India and our parents had inculcated in us valuable qualities such as vinaya, bhakthi, and respect for others. It is time we pass on those great qualities to our next generation. What better way to do it than by our own conduct. Thank you and appreciate your patience. Ram Sriram
That is perfect: I have absolutely no issues with that statement, and I could not agree more!
I made myself clear - I was ONLY defending the children. Personally, as a parent of a bicultural child, and professionally, I have a knee-jerk response to defend kids. The adults can hire their own defense.
I agree that we have to teach our kids our culture on some level, but I am more interested in making life easy for them. I am so amazed that children who do so much cross-cultural movement while having issues with their identity do SO well overall. That is what needs appreciation.
Ravi
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vasanthakokilam
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10168
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
Ravi,
Whenever there is humour , it is inevitable to introduce few lies here and there. So in the context of the article , I doubt whether all the parents just left (may be few left..)with their camcorder as soon as their kids performed. What the article is talking about is seriousness,musical shruthi suddham,bhakthi etc of performing in a thyagarAja arAdhana was missing. The same seriousness is missing in thiruvayAru as noted by vgovindan.
On a side note, kids have to get a fierce obsession,concentration and parAmbariyam(adherence to tradition) in carnatic music , the earlier they get it themselves or thru critics or gurus or elders, it is better . A different take on your analogy of MD or MBBS , irrespective of the college that a student studies , the evaluation of MBBS should be the same in the world, that is what we are talking about.
Incidentally I have only seen a rajana swaminathan from USA and yet to see one from India. Would rajana been as she is today if we just praised her earlier when she was only a half performer. So conditional criticism based on geography or bicultural root does not hold that great promise for the future of kids and music.
Whenever there is humour , it is inevitable to introduce few lies here and there. So in the context of the article , I doubt whether all the parents just left (may be few left..)with their camcorder as soon as their kids performed. What the article is talking about is seriousness,musical shruthi suddham,bhakthi etc of performing in a thyagarAja arAdhana was missing. The same seriousness is missing in thiruvayAru as noted by vgovindan.
On a side note, kids have to get a fierce obsession,concentration and parAmbariyam(adherence to tradition) in carnatic music , the earlier they get it themselves or thru critics or gurus or elders, it is better . A different take on your analogy of MD or MBBS , irrespective of the college that a student studies , the evaluation of MBBS should be the same in the world, that is what we are talking about.
Incidentally I have only seen a rajana swaminathan from USA and yet to see one from India. Would rajana been as she is today if we just praised her earlier when she was only a half performer. So conditional criticism based on geography or bicultural root does not hold that great promise for the future of kids and music.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 30 Sep 2006, 12:47, edited 1 time in total.
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rrao13
- Posts: 88
- Joined: 02 Aug 2006, 21:01
Dear Rasikas: I have been living in Detroit, Michigan for the past ten years and in the last 4 to 5 years, have become a regular fan of functions and festivals where Karnatik music is performed by children, adolescents, teenagers, upcoming young artists etc. I am delighted to report that in my observation, most parents and their children take these events seriously and sincerely. Yes, children do sing off-key sometimes and some parents and their children do leave before the function is over - usually because these things are held on Saturdays and Saturdays are really really packed with events in the metro Detroit area. There are math classes, tennis training sessions, other sports training events which the children have to participate. However, it is heartening to note that many children sit thru most of the performance and there are exceptional kids who take notes (write down the krithi name,Raaga, composer etc) and some who record other childrens' renderings on their MP3 recorders. There are highly talented young children both in vocal and instrumental who perform so well that it will bring tears of joy to the listeners' eyes or at least a lump in the throat. It is my humble opinion that these children AND their parents are paying a wonderful homage to the divine trinity, in fact to the field of Karnatik music. I am fondly hoping that there will be a few children from the current crop who will reach professional levels. Incidentally there are at least two children - well they are no longer children but have become youngsters - probably in their late teens or early 20's who are reaching concert level performances. Without naming them, one is a young man who recently gave his first vocal arangetram - I think he is a college freshman. Another is a youngster who is accompanying professionals in Mridangam and has started participating in December seasons in Chennai. Both are from Michigan state. May God bless them. I hope to see more such talent and I am sure I wont be disappointed. By the way, the highlight of my own Cleveland Aaradhana experience, this year was to have met a college student who came all the way from Sydney, Australia to perform Mridangam in coouple of concerts.
Before I conclude, I have seen children running about and parents gossiping at these events and in general, sometimes it appears more like a social gathering than anything else. Overall, IMHO, the musical saints will be more happy than sad that there are a few folks who are bent on carrying their mission forward - especially in the prevailing atmosphere of musical cacophony such as Rap, that surround the children in their milieu. I will pray to Lord Anjaneya to use his mace to destroy the noise that some people propagate as music!
Before I conclude, I have seen children running about and parents gossiping at these events and in general, sometimes it appears more like a social gathering than anything else. Overall, IMHO, the musical saints will be more happy than sad that there are a few folks who are bent on carrying their mission forward - especially in the prevailing atmosphere of musical cacophony such as Rap, that surround the children in their milieu. I will pray to Lord Anjaneya to use his mace to destroy the noise that some people propagate as music!
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Well, sriram and I logged in more or less at the time and his mail preceded mine. My guess was a good one. He meant it the way I thought he did.
VK, it goes like this: those who live in India, though they think (because of communication and globalism) they know all about the process of living of indians abroad, it is difficult for them to begin to grasp the components of our lives. Even those who come visiting here do not have much of an idea about the way we have made our lives away from home. Surely, bringing up children in ANY culture is difficult enough. Even in south india which is the ideal place to expose your children to CM, I feel that school and tests are more the concerns of parents than developing in their children the knowledge of CM (correct me if I am wrong, I do not live in India). As for me, if my son is interested in CM, it is because music surrounded him at home. When ha was a child, there was precious little CM to be heard outside our home in the sixties and seventies--let alone classes for children...
Again, I see rrao has subsatantiated on what I wanted to say while I was typing away
VK, it goes like this: those who live in India, though they think (because of communication and globalism) they know all about the process of living of indians abroad, it is difficult for them to begin to grasp the components of our lives. Even those who come visiting here do not have much of an idea about the way we have made our lives away from home. Surely, bringing up children in ANY culture is difficult enough. Even in south india which is the ideal place to expose your children to CM, I feel that school and tests are more the concerns of parents than developing in their children the knowledge of CM (correct me if I am wrong, I do not live in India). As for me, if my son is interested in CM, it is because music surrounded him at home. When ha was a child, there was precious little CM to be heard outside our home in the sixties and seventies--let alone classes for children...
Again, I see rrao has subsatantiated on what I wanted to say while I was typing away
Last edited by arasi on 30 Sep 2006, 20:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Vishnampettai Jayendran
- Posts: 86
- Joined: 28 Apr 2006, 11:25
hey those thyagaraja festivals are very cool. In seattle u get free thairu saadam! Sometimes if u r lucky u will also find a really hot south indian girl dressed in Silk Saree.. but most of the time they r usually married. I used to go there every year for thairu saadam and hot chics, but in 2001 i got kicked out of the church (thats where they arrange it here) for wearing this t-shirt:
http://vorlon.case.edu/~jayen/jjjjj-mp3/DSCF0044.jpg
some organizer took offense to my t-shirt.. and till the time he mentioned it to me i didnt even realise i had worn an iron maiden t shirt.. it was probably the only clean shirt I had that eventful saturday.. anyways he came and asked me politely (I must add to his defence) , Sir do you have a jacket or something to cover up your T-Shirt?
I think I gave him the wrong answer.. I Said I can take it off i u want...
Well thats the last time I went to a thyagaraja festival here in Seattle.
Cheers,
Jayendran
P.S: I do miss the free thair saadam every now and then
http://vorlon.case.edu/~jayen/jjjjj-mp3/DSCF0044.jpg
some organizer took offense to my t-shirt.. and till the time he mentioned it to me i didnt even realise i had worn an iron maiden t shirt.. it was probably the only clean shirt I had that eventful saturday.. anyways he came and asked me politely (I must add to his defence) , Sir do you have a jacket or something to cover up your T-Shirt?
I think I gave him the wrong answer.. I Said I can take it off i u want...
Well thats the last time I went to a thyagaraja festival here in Seattle.
Cheers,
Jayendran
P.S: I do miss the free thair saadam every now and then
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vs_manjunath
- Posts: 1466
- Joined: 29 Sep 2006, 19:37
I visited Thiruvaiiyyaru on Thyagaraja's 150th Aradhana celebration. Just the previous day my article on Saint Thyagaraja was published in Times Of India, Bangalore Edition.
Before the Pancharathna Krithis were recited a group of people gathered in various corners of the pandal and started shouting Tamil Isai and shouted Telugu Songs shoul not be sung.
Obviously, I felt very bad vs_manjunath
Before the Pancharathna Krithis were recited a group of people gathered in various corners of the pandal and started shouting Tamil Isai and shouted Telugu Songs shoul not be sung.
Obviously, I felt very bad vs_manjunath
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Vishnampettai Jayendran
- Posts: 86
- Joined: 28 Apr 2006, 11:25
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rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
rrao,
Thanks for your views. I agree totally with you and I think I am aware of the youngsters that you refer to, and we all wish them and any others in that category all the very best.
I understand that another option is to have these children learn CM to know about our/their culture and allow only the serious ones who practice to perform in public. If we did that many of these kids will not want to learn, because a public performance, however bad they're at it, is seen as a reward, and a positive reinforcement for them - a validation for the time they spend learning what to them is a very different system of music that they can't share with their friends.
During this navarAtri, it was my pleasure to hear many young girls and boys sing - not all of them had Sruti Suddham, and very few had the correct pronunciation, but they all deserved the praise they got for the grace with which they sang in public, in languages that were rather alien to them, and more than anything else, for having cheerfully accompanied their parents on an evening rather than spending it on the phone with their friends, or watching their favorite TV show! I remember many a navarAtri season in India where the parents would be glaring at their sulking, uncooperative offspring or muttering to them through clenched teeth asking them to acquiese to the hostess' request and sing! And these were the ones who could and did sing very well.
I guess what I am saying is that we should appreciate what we have, count our blessings, and pray that our kids growing up in alien lands continue to grow up into wonderful, productive citizens of the world, and ignore minor road bumps like Sruti challenged CM singing. I think we should be proud that they do grow up knowing what CM is, and will not turn around and ask us 'how much will it cost per pound'?
Regarding Dr. Sriram's original posting about the parents, I do agree that it is in very poor taste. One of our local music teachers insists that all of her students stay and listen to each other sing/play, unless the parents can furnish her with a valid reason to leave before the whole lot is done. It gets the students to appreciate the fact that leaving earlier will not be acceptable.
Ravi
Thanks for your views. I agree totally with you and I think I am aware of the youngsters that you refer to, and we all wish them and any others in that category all the very best.
Yes, it would be relevant to have the same standards, but once again you can't compare apples to oranges: most of the children that learn CM in the US do it for reasons that are probably not the same as that of children in India. While it may be one option to say that unless you want to be totally immersed in it, you should not do it, I think it would be a sad idea. As I see it, kids here learn CM because it is one of the few things helps them to come to terms with their Indian indentity. A very small fraction will go on to practice diligently and take it to a higher level. It is just another aid like bAlagOkulam, or bAlavikAs. The same is true of children in the US learning bharatanATyam or other classical dance forms. The reason why I think it will be impractical to make them (even the ones that are truly gifted) practice more and longer and dedicate themselves to these activities is the time factor: most of these kids participate in other activities that will be of greater consequence to them if they excel at them (for purposes of college applications etc...). So, as parents, we learn to prioritise and accept the activities that will be performed with the attitude of 'yengAttukArarum katchErikku pOnAr'! That is why I am amazed at the ones who succeed in the realm of CM/bharatanATyam like Rohan K, Rajana S, Hema R, and many others that I am not aware of - my hats off to them and their parents.rajeshnat wrote:A different take on your analogy of MD or MBBS , irrespective of the college that a student studies , the evaluation of MBBS should be the same in the world, that is what we are talking about.
I understand that another option is to have these children learn CM to know about our/their culture and allow only the serious ones who practice to perform in public. If we did that many of these kids will not want to learn, because a public performance, however bad they're at it, is seen as a reward, and a positive reinforcement for them - a validation for the time they spend learning what to them is a very different system of music that they can't share with their friends.
How do you know that she was not praised earlier? And, how do you know if that praise was what spurred her to reach even greater heights? Praise to children is like water to plants...they do not thrive without it. And it is the parents job to ensure that they take the praise in the right context.rajeshnat wrote:Incidentally I have only seen a rajana swaminathan from USA and yet to see one from India. Would rajana been as she is today if we just praised her earlier when she was only a half performer.
During this navarAtri, it was my pleasure to hear many young girls and boys sing - not all of them had Sruti Suddham, and very few had the correct pronunciation, but they all deserved the praise they got for the grace with which they sang in public, in languages that were rather alien to them, and more than anything else, for having cheerfully accompanied their parents on an evening rather than spending it on the phone with their friends, or watching their favorite TV show! I remember many a navarAtri season in India where the parents would be glaring at their sulking, uncooperative offspring or muttering to them through clenched teeth asking them to acquiese to the hostess' request and sing! And these were the ones who could and did sing very well.
I guess what I am saying is that we should appreciate what we have, count our blessings, and pray that our kids growing up in alien lands continue to grow up into wonderful, productive citizens of the world, and ignore minor road bumps like Sruti challenged CM singing. I think we should be proud that they do grow up knowing what CM is, and will not turn around and ask us 'how much will it cost per pound'?
Regarding Dr. Sriram's original posting about the parents, I do agree that it is in very poor taste. One of our local music teachers insists that all of her students stay and listen to each other sing/play, unless the parents can furnish her with a valid reason to leave before the whole lot is done. It gets the students to appreciate the fact that leaving earlier will not be acceptable.
Ravi
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Vishnampettai Jayendran
- Posts: 86
- Joined: 28 Apr 2006, 11:25
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Ravi,
Your post says it all--unless someone drags the topic away to by lanes. As parents who have brought up and are bringing up children away from India, we know that we did not forget to bring our old value system with us. Our love for music and the arts was part of it. But for a handful who choose materialism as their value system (they have no geographical boundaries) we did and are doing well in enjoying music and other fine arts of India and of other cultures.
Ravi, I hope parents everywhere get to appreciate what you say. Children have to be nurtured in their learning--no matter what their level of achievement. As far as our fine arts are concerened, we have to guide them in their appreciation and enjoyment of our heritage. I will add this. You cannot spoil children by spending all the time you have with them and in helping them grow.. You CAN however spoil them by giving them too many material things and sending signals that money and admission to prestigious colleges and winning awards are of great importance...
Your post says it all--unless someone drags the topic away to by lanes. As parents who have brought up and are bringing up children away from India, we know that we did not forget to bring our old value system with us. Our love for music and the arts was part of it. But for a handful who choose materialism as their value system (they have no geographical boundaries) we did and are doing well in enjoying music and other fine arts of India and of other cultures.
Ravi, I hope parents everywhere get to appreciate what you say. Children have to be nurtured in their learning--no matter what their level of achievement. As far as our fine arts are concerened, we have to guide them in their appreciation and enjoyment of our heritage. I will add this. You cannot spoil children by spending all the time you have with them and in helping them grow.. You CAN however spoil them by giving them too many material things and sending signals that money and admission to prestigious colleges and winning awards are of great importance...
Last edited by arasi on 04 Oct 2006, 21:02, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
As I understand Thyagaraja gave importance primarily to 'bhakti' (devotion to rama) and the music was only incidental. Hence one has to understand his words (message) properly before singing his verses. As long as one had the devotion (and understanding) while singing his kritis he would not mind 'musical lapses'. He would bless such a sadhaka than 'punish' him
Let us admit that carnatic music is much bigger than Thyagaraja (who in that respect only one cog in the wheel). On the other hand he was one of the 'greatest' devotees (in the CM fold).
Our fesstivals are there to promote bhakti and dharma (morality) and music or dance being woven into them is just incidental. Getting hooked on the 'entertainment aspect' and not making the children realize the underlying moral principles is akin to
'kani iruppa kaay kavarnthaRRE'
Let us admit that carnatic music is much bigger than Thyagaraja (who in that respect only one cog in the wheel). On the other hand he was one of the 'greatest' devotees (in the CM fold).
Our fesstivals are there to promote bhakti and dharma (morality) and music or dance being woven into them is just incidental. Getting hooked on the 'entertainment aspect' and not making the children realize the underlying moral principles is akin to
'kani iruppa kaay kavarnthaRRE'
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SangithaRasika
- Posts: 79
- Joined: 11 Mar 2006, 22:41
As this discussion winds down, I remembered this article (on a lighter note, tho', its an old one) as it talks about Tyagaraja making a trip to earth .. this time to Chicago !!
http://tyagaraja-chicago.org/vijayam/Deepa92.html
According this .. Shri Tyagaraja himself wants to come again
SR
http://tyagaraja-chicago.org/vijayam/Deepa92.html
According this .. Shri Tyagaraja himself wants to come again
SR
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Hear, hear, CML!
tumbai viTTU vAlaip piDikkira kathai thAn (Letting go of the lead and trying to catch the animal by its tail)...
TyAgarAjA would have been happy to hear children sing with shraddhA whatever their level of proficiency in rendering, pronounciation and so on...
tumbai viTTU vAlaip piDikkira kathai thAn (Letting go of the lead and trying to catch the animal by its tail)...
TyAgarAjA would have been happy to hear children sing with shraddhA whatever their level of proficiency in rendering, pronounciation and so on...
Last edited by arasi on 04 Oct 2006, 23:19, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
I wanted to share this experience with you to see how you feel!
This navaratri I selectively visited a few houses and enjoyed the atmosphere of the joyous puja season especially the enthusiasm of the young kids. In one of the houses I heard a lady (an accomplished musician with a Masters in Music) sing a beautiful Thyagaraja song in arabhi. I noticed that usually folks sing either Tamil songs or sanskrit (Dikshitar or HMB...) but SS or T are sung occasionally. This lady sang it with a nice aalapana and was in class. When she finished an elderly lady (from vishakapatnam) stared at her and said that if Thyagaraja were to hear her he would commit suicide. She went on to explain the Telugu part of the sahityam and explained how the singer had 'slaughtered' the language. This young lady gracefully took the criticism and replied that she was taught by 'most famous' vidvans at the Music college and she was just following their paddhati.
Now we have heard about the demonstrations by 'Tamils' at Thiruvaiyaru regarding singing in Telugu at the ThyagOtsavam. The other side of the coin are some 'Telugus' who resent their language being murdered by 'musicians' (Telugu ignorami
Both are right in a way! What is the answer?
(Of course this has nothing to do with singing off-key
This navaratri I selectively visited a few houses and enjoyed the atmosphere of the joyous puja season especially the enthusiasm of the young kids. In one of the houses I heard a lady (an accomplished musician with a Masters in Music) sing a beautiful Thyagaraja song in arabhi. I noticed that usually folks sing either Tamil songs or sanskrit (Dikshitar or HMB...) but SS or T are sung occasionally. This lady sang it with a nice aalapana and was in class. When she finished an elderly lady (from vishakapatnam) stared at her and said that if Thyagaraja were to hear her he would commit suicide. She went on to explain the Telugu part of the sahityam and explained how the singer had 'slaughtered' the language. This young lady gracefully took the criticism and replied that she was taught by 'most famous' vidvans at the Music college and she was just following their paddhati.
Now we have heard about the demonstrations by 'Tamils' at Thiruvaiyaru regarding singing in Telugu at the ThyagOtsavam. The other side of the coin are some 'Telugus' who resent their language being murdered by 'musicians' (Telugu ignorami
Both are right in a way! What is the answer?
(Of course this has nothing to do with singing off-key
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kkumar29
- Posts: 46
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 20:26
I will second to what arasi has written. I had a similar moving experience recently. I was attending a vijayadasami celebration here in the bay area where one little girl, 5 years old was singing "sri rangapura vihara" in Brindavana saranga. She sang (at least tried to) with all the nuances her teacher had taught her. Half way she forgot the next line, had some sruthi lapses but completed the song in a grand fashion. It was so moving that it brought tears to my eyes. I got the same enjoyment that I get when I listen to MS singing the same song. So I asked her after she finished her song what does she enjoy in that song. She said she gets a great thrill when her voice blends with the sruthi box and it was so cool. I thought that statement alone would have been sufficient for her teacher that the effort was not wasted. Now why would Tyagaraja or anyone else for that matter, not enjoy her singing and bless this child. I think that is what music is all about. It is so personal.
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
What I am going to say could be controversial...
My own theory is that as you go higher up in the musical/spriritual path, you lay less stress on sahityam and find bhakti in just the music itself. There's a whole bunch of folks out there who are stuck on the words and miss the essence of music.
Hey, looks like we are blending two topics into one...!
My own theory is that as you go higher up in the musical/spriritual path, you lay less stress on sahityam and find bhakti in just the music itself. There's a whole bunch of folks out there who are stuck on the words and miss the essence of music.
Hey, looks like we are blending two topics into one...!
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sangeetarasikan
- Posts: 68
- Joined: 12 Sep 2006, 17:07
Nice story Kumar. Personally I do wince a bit when I hear sahityam errors but it wouldn't compare to the discomfort of hearing off-key renditions! No wonder we can all listen to a MMI or SSI despite their poor pronunciation. The quality of music is so high that sahityam takes a back seat in our minds. All the same, I am filled with great joy when I hear MSS sing with perfect diction.
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rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Arasi,
Thanks.
Kumar,
You just illustrated what I said earlier - thanks for that.
I think that music does give me spiritual solace, but when I hear someone request the lord to consider them a 'fruit' (panDu) and not a 'servant/sEvakan' (banTu) as originally intended, I do find a serious disturbance in my spiritual ascent, regardless of the quality of the music! Maybe I am not spiritual enough, or possibly, my ascent is only to triSanku swargam.....Who knows?
Ravi
Thanks.
Kumar,
You just illustrated what I said earlier - thanks for that.
I think that music does give me spiritual solace, but when I hear someone request the lord to consider them a 'fruit' (panDu) and not a 'servant/sEvakan' (banTu) as originally intended, I do find a serious disturbance in my spiritual ascent, regardless of the quality of the music! Maybe I am not spiritual enough, or possibly, my ascent is only to triSanku swargam.....Who knows?
Ravi
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
Some servants are old fruits any way...!...but when I hear someone request the lord to consider them a 'fruit' (panDu) and not a 'servant/sEvakan' (banTu) as originally intended, I do find a serious disturbance in my spiritual ascent, ...
Seriously, apa-swaram is a much bigger distraction than apa-sahityam. Forced a choice between the two, I would rather go with apa-sahityam.
But then, that's just me.
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10168
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
The metamorphosis of kid getting appreciated (upto say 10 years )to a kid (say after 10 years or more)that is to be guided by parents/gurus to aspire more is what I am raising. Right guidance at the right time is important . Intelligent coercion with sound criticism has to be amply demonstrated by adults to kids. I see most of the times it is not happening today.
In chennai too , there are many kids who get together and demonstrate their vidwat. But to me after a certain age(12+ age is ideal) , the kids should go into some kind of hibernation, learn and demonstrate after they are mature in their vidwat and not go in a cycle of competition or get togethers. To me this is the best route to excel and this can be only guided by parents/gurus and incidentally this awareness cannot be instinctively got by kids . Those days kids picked vidwat(the best example is Prof TNK trying Bhairavi varnam at the age of 5) as they were continously baptized directly under gurukula system , which I think is gone forever .
Ravi,
You dont know me , I dont know you. But looking at your posts , you seem to err that kids have to be encouraged as they are kids. It appears you are giving too much of rope .YOu may know Shri SV Krishnan (SVK mamA) of rAgaSudha . He is one soul who intelligently coerces . To me he has never over praised . Even if the performers are very young , he just says let the kid practice more and more and be blessed , indirectly implying that this kid has got a long way to go. He praised some kids too if they are good. Is there a SVK mAma there in these competitions to guide?Most of the get togethers dont have one?
On a personal note let me share my own personal anecdote . From 1981 to 1987 (4th standard to 9th standard), I also learnt CM in a pAdasala where I stopped after learning 4 krithis . My parents also thought I was doing ok and they pushed me to few competitions here and there . I preferred to skip the competitions and instead sing in navarathris as the sundal was a better enticement to me. I did not even have awareness to aspire more. Incidentally this is what is continuing more and more.So be it India or USA , it does not matter. So bottomline, each of us have to take responsibility to coerce and also let the kid know , if done no issues there.
On a sidenote, I have lived only few years in US. Don't you think in US,kids can take full time in music unlike India where we are always pampered to join professional courses . Incidentally there is a strong network of likeminded cm interested folks like arasi,rshankar ,rao who get together. So that way there can be more focus with kids there. Is that not a big plus .
In chennai too , there are many kids who get together and demonstrate their vidwat. But to me after a certain age(12+ age is ideal) , the kids should go into some kind of hibernation, learn and demonstrate after they are mature in their vidwat and not go in a cycle of competition or get togethers. To me this is the best route to excel and this can be only guided by parents/gurus and incidentally this awareness cannot be instinctively got by kids . Those days kids picked vidwat(the best example is Prof TNK trying Bhairavi varnam at the age of 5) as they were continously baptized directly under gurukula system , which I think is gone forever .
Ravi,
You dont know me , I dont know you. But looking at your posts , you seem to err that kids have to be encouraged as they are kids. It appears you are giving too much of rope .YOu may know Shri SV Krishnan (SVK mamA) of rAgaSudha . He is one soul who intelligently coerces . To me he has never over praised . Even if the performers are very young , he just says let the kid practice more and more and be blessed , indirectly implying that this kid has got a long way to go. He praised some kids too if they are good. Is there a SVK mAma there in these competitions to guide?Most of the get togethers dont have one?
On a personal note let me share my own personal anecdote . From 1981 to 1987 (4th standard to 9th standard), I also learnt CM in a pAdasala where I stopped after learning 4 krithis . My parents also thought I was doing ok and they pushed me to few competitions here and there . I preferred to skip the competitions and instead sing in navarathris as the sundal was a better enticement to me. I did not even have awareness to aspire more. Incidentally this is what is continuing more and more.So be it India or USA , it does not matter. So bottomline, each of us have to take responsibility to coerce and also let the kid know , if done no issues there.
On a sidenote, I have lived only few years in US. Don't you think in US,kids can take full time in music unlike India where we are always pampered to join professional courses . Incidentally there is a strong network of likeminded cm interested folks like arasi,rshankar ,rao who get together. So that way there can be more focus with kids there. Is that not a big plus .
Last edited by rajeshnat on 05 Oct 2006, 14:21, edited 1 time in total.
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prashant
- Posts: 1658
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:01
What a lovely sentiment so beautifully and innocently expressed by a child. Just aligning with a tambura sruti is itself such a simple and boundless pleasure - that's the core of why most of us who sing do so, I think.kkumar29 wrote:She said she gets a great thrill when her voice blends with the sruthi box and it was so cool. I thought that statement alone would have been sufficient for her teacher that the effort was not wasted. Now why would Tyagaraja or anyone else for that matter, not enjoy her singing and bless this child. I think that is what music is all about. It is so personal.
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rrao13
- Posts: 88
- Joined: 02 Aug 2006, 21:01
I really felt sad when I read CMLOVER's posting about the singer who was chastised for committing errors in saahityam by a Telugu listener. I am also a Telugu person (with some mix of Kannada background thrown in - being a Madhva) and I have to admit that there are Krithis by Saint Thyagaraja and may be others that can be a shade confusing in terms of words and meanings. Shri RSHANKAR's reference to Bantu Reethi Kolu reminded me of the time, when I started my own limited forays into Karnatik Music. I had heard this krithi and fell in love with the tune (Hamsanaadam). However, despite hearing it a few times but not having read it in print, I somehow thought that it was about Pandu and not Bantu. I must admit shamelessly that though I studied in Telugu medium until 11th standard (SSLC, those days),I could not for the life of me, realize it as Bantu!!. In fact, so much so, I tried to interpret the Pallavi and thought to myself that the krithi was referencing Shri Rama's acceptance of Sabari's fruit offerings. Of course, I figured out the meaning several days later.
Forgive me if I have upset my dear Telugu friends and Shri Thyagaraja devotees.
The reason I write this post is just to say that people can make mistakes and honestly I felt very sad when I read the posting about a singer being chastised. I dont mind if one were to politely correct the singer in order to improve her own appreciation. I would assume that the singer sang out of respect to God and Music (which itself is an element of Divinity) and it is the Bhakthi Bhava that emanated at that time. One can certainly improve her Gnana by providing meaningful insights into the Saahitya of the rendering.
Forgive me if I have upset my dear Telugu friends and Shri Thyagaraja devotees.
The reason I write this post is just to say that people can make mistakes and honestly I felt very sad when I read the posting about a singer being chastised. I dont mind if one were to politely correct the singer in order to improve her own appreciation. I would assume that the singer sang out of respect to God and Music (which itself is an element of Divinity) and it is the Bhakthi Bhava that emanated at that time. One can certainly improve her Gnana by providing meaningful insights into the Saahitya of the rendering.
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
This from a letter to Sruti magazine in their special issue on KVN. Speaks for itself:
"As a little girl who attended KVN's concert many years ago in Palakkad, an incident is still fresh in my memory. KVN sang Mohanamuralidhari in Mohanam, a Malayalam composition of C.S. Krishna Iyer, who was his guru and also my guru. Midway through the kriti, it seemed that his memory of the sahitya failed him at a particular line. Krishna Iyer, who was in the audience, sang that line for him from his seat and KVN continued his beautiful rendition. How many concerts do you go to where the composer attends the concert and also helps the singer with the lines?"
"As a little girl who attended KVN's concert many years ago in Palakkad, an incident is still fresh in my memory. KVN sang Mohanamuralidhari in Mohanam, a Malayalam composition of C.S. Krishna Iyer, who was his guru and also my guru. Midway through the kriti, it seemed that his memory of the sahitya failed him at a particular line. Krishna Iyer, who was in the audience, sang that line for him from his seat and KVN continued his beautiful rendition. How many concerts do you go to where the composer attends the concert and also helps the singer with the lines?"
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humdinger
- Posts: 194
- Joined: 04 Jan 2006, 12:14
Sri rao,
i completely agree with you that a polite correction was what was needed and its not at all correct on her part to chastise the singer for sAhitya dOsham. Afterall, the singer's mothertongue is not telugu. Her effort to learn a telugu kriti and render itself is plaudable.
At the same time, after reading your experiece i feel a stronger need for sAhitya suddham and the need on the vocalists' part to be clear and correct with their pronounciations.
i completely agree with you that a polite correction was what was needed and its not at all correct on her part to chastise the singer for sAhitya dOsham. Afterall, the singer's mothertongue is not telugu. Her effort to learn a telugu kriti and render itself is plaudable.
At the same time, after reading your experiece i feel a stronger need for sAhitya suddham and the need on the vocalists' part to be clear and correct with their pronounciations.
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Music
- Posts: 149
- Joined: 21 Jul 2006, 20:25
kkumar29's post about the little girl finding joy in aligning her voice with the sruti box was indeed touching and something any artist should strive for.
Talking about sahitya shuddham:
Music is multi-dimensionsal. It is hard to find an artist who is perfect in all the dimensions. You could look at the following as the various dimensions of music:
Sruti, tala, laya, raga, sahitya pronunciation, expression of the sahitya bhava (singing/playing with a feeling for the meaning), clarity in the rendition (e.g. clarity in the akaram for a vocalist), rich imagination in manodharma..........and many more that I could not think of.
A perfect artist would have 'shuddham' in all these dimensions - sruti shuddham, sahitya shuddham and what not. Saints like Tyagaraja have added further dimensions to music - like bhakti ("Sangeeta gnanamu bhakti vinaa sanmaargamu galade"). Even if you analyze any great artist, you would see some of these dimensions are very well developed while some dimensions are not. I think what is important in an artist is the awareness of all the dimensions and the constant attempt to strive for perfection in all of them.
Even a listener for that matter, should have the awareness of all these dimensions in order to pass a judgement. People who chastise artists on sahitya shuddham alone (as in cmlover's post above), usually tend to have little knowledge of the other aspects of music. They have a point, but have no authority to determine how Tyagaraja would have judged the song. None of them is Tyagaraja reincarnate.
Even God is supposed to be merciful - He/She accepts anything that is offered with bhakti with utmost pleasure!
Talking about sahitya shuddham:
Music is multi-dimensionsal. It is hard to find an artist who is perfect in all the dimensions. You could look at the following as the various dimensions of music:
Sruti, tala, laya, raga, sahitya pronunciation, expression of the sahitya bhava (singing/playing with a feeling for the meaning), clarity in the rendition (e.g. clarity in the akaram for a vocalist), rich imagination in manodharma..........and many more that I could not think of.
A perfect artist would have 'shuddham' in all these dimensions - sruti shuddham, sahitya shuddham and what not. Saints like Tyagaraja have added further dimensions to music - like bhakti ("Sangeeta gnanamu bhakti vinaa sanmaargamu galade"). Even if you analyze any great artist, you would see some of these dimensions are very well developed while some dimensions are not. I think what is important in an artist is the awareness of all the dimensions and the constant attempt to strive for perfection in all of them.
Even a listener for that matter, should have the awareness of all these dimensions in order to pass a judgement. People who chastise artists on sahitya shuddham alone (as in cmlover's post above), usually tend to have little knowledge of the other aspects of music. They have a point, but have no authority to determine how Tyagaraja would have judged the song. None of them is Tyagaraja reincarnate.
Even God is supposed to be merciful - He/She accepts anything that is offered with bhakti with utmost pleasure!
Last edited by Music on 05 Oct 2006, 20:15, edited 1 time in total.
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kaapi
- Posts: 146
- Joined: 05 Jun 2005, 14:32
The Tamilian artistes are generally taken to task for the lack of lyrical purity while rendering ThyAgarAja kIrtanas. But it is these vidwans who have preserved the Saint’s kIrtanAs despite mispronouncing and even butchering the sAhithya. They have done against great odds, even though many could not understand the language. But for their effort TyAgarAja krithis would have become part of a forgotten music heritage and not be the living corpus that it is today.
However we should try to improve in this department and correct the obvious mistakes. This is especially true for the students and juniors. In the case of concert artistes this may not always be possible because
a) while singing to a large audience it may not be possible to pronounce all consonants exactly since then the sound may not carry through
b) There can be slips at the heat of the moment
c) While singing long sangathis, especially in 2 kalai kirtanas, drawing breadth or swallowing the saliva can tend to change the pronunciation.
d) Lastly it may tend to make the music concert into sampradAya bhajan session.
However we should try to improve in this department and correct the obvious mistakes. This is especially true for the students and juniors. In the case of concert artistes this may not always be possible because
a) while singing to a large audience it may not be possible to pronounce all consonants exactly since then the sound may not carry through
b) There can be slips at the heat of the moment
c) While singing long sangathis, especially in 2 kalai kirtanas, drawing breadth or swallowing the saliva can tend to change the pronunciation.
d) Lastly it may tend to make the music concert into sampradAya bhajan session.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
In our culture Bhakti is a dominant feature of Music. There are two levels at which music can be enjoyed. The first is purely physical where the physical sensations induce pleasure (just as listening to African Rhythms). The other is intellectual where the mind has to be involved to translate the music and its meaning to create the emotional experience. The sahityam and even the circumstance of composition play a major part for the 'intellectual pleasure' which is lasting and which you will remember long after. For example knowing the background of the composition of 'nidhicAla' enhances the enjoyment tremendously more than simply knowing the meaning!
Suppose a vidvan sings 'vAtApi sarasvatIM bhajEham' in a perfect hamsadhvani how many of us will patiently sit and listen? There is no grammatical error in the sahityam but our mind will revolt at the thought of it. In music we care for syntax as well as semantic errors. I am sure we will be more upset in this context than a violation of using kaishiki in place of kaakaLi niShAdaM
Suppose a vidvan sings 'vAtApi sarasvatIM bhajEham' in a perfect hamsadhvani how many of us will patiently sit and listen? There is no grammatical error in the sahityam but our mind will revolt at the thought of it. In music we care for syntax as well as semantic errors. I am sure we will be more upset in this context than a violation of using kaishiki in place of kaakaLi niShAdaM
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rrao13
- Posts: 88
- Joined: 02 Aug 2006, 21:01
Shri CMLOVER - you have made an excellent point. The enjoyment of a krihi multiplies when you understand the saahityam fully. My favorite Yamuna Kalyani krithi used to be Krishna Nee Begane Baaro beause of not just the raaga but also the bhaava and when I heard Haridasulu Vedale in the same Raaga, I vividly imagined Haridasas walking in the street of Shri Thyagarja and all of them doing Puja to Shri Rama and so on....The lyrics of this song simply takes devotion to a greater level. In fact in this very same krithi the penultimate charanam talks about Gnana, Rama and "Manchi Ganamu" - all these have to be in perfect balance for the listeners to reach the music lovers' version of Moksha!
While on this subject, I simply dislike non-Hindustani folks kalling Yamnua Kalyani as Yaman Kalyani. For me Yamuna Kalyai brings to mind the beauty of the river Yamuna and Kalyani itself is such an auspicious name - so the combination is a pure delight. Yaman on the other hand makes me think of the lord of death. Am I missing something here, and is there a different meaning to the Word Yaman? Can some one throw etymological light on this please? Thanks.
While on this subject, I simply dislike non-Hindustani folks kalling Yamnua Kalyani as Yaman Kalyani. For me Yamuna Kalyai brings to mind the beauty of the river Yamuna and Kalyani itself is such an auspicious name - so the combination is a pure delight. Yaman on the other hand makes me think of the lord of death. Am I missing something here, and is there a different meaning to the Word Yaman? Can some one throw etymological light on this please? Thanks.
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10168
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
Music a very nice and balanced post . You hit it rightly.
cmlover
Let me also jump in here , even though I thought this thread is not intended to discuss about sahithyam. Your posts have triggered me here.
1. When my aspiration is to understand the meanings of songs , should I not attend a katha kalakshebham instead of a carnatic music concert.
2. I understand that carnatic music is also a cerebral exercise.I can only understand tamil . I am only able to appreciate the meaning of tamil songs in Carnatic music only when the tukkadas are sung or a viruttam is sung. Assuming if a main krithi like tiruvadi saranam in kAmbOdhi is sung , where is your focus is it in the majestic kAmbOdhi or the lyrics of GKB or is it both.May be the lyrics appreciation is there for some time , but later are you just engrossed in the musical bhakthi of kAmbOdhi.
3.I assume you also know telugu. When vintage madurai mani to a modern suryaprakAsh sings a neraval with one word itavU (itavU mAtalantu)in sarasa SAma dhana , is there a meaning for that word itavU. For me that neraval and the subsequent swaram is the best. What portion in the concert you like the most sir?
4. The meaning of nidhichala sukhama is a one time exercise that I appreciate . I don't like that krithi that much as what vasudevayani in kalyAni delivers .For me till now I know the meaning of nidhichala to some extent , but no idea about the meaning of vasudevayani . But which is everlasting, i bet it is vasudevayani for me,how about you Sir.
I am asking you these questions as certainly you posess a higher appreciation of music than definitely me.Correct me if I am wrong anywhere. Please help me
cmlover
Let me also jump in here , even though I thought this thread is not intended to discuss about sahithyam. Your posts have triggered me here.
1. When my aspiration is to understand the meanings of songs , should I not attend a katha kalakshebham instead of a carnatic music concert.
2. I understand that carnatic music is also a cerebral exercise.I can only understand tamil . I am only able to appreciate the meaning of tamil songs in Carnatic music only when the tukkadas are sung or a viruttam is sung. Assuming if a main krithi like tiruvadi saranam in kAmbOdhi is sung , where is your focus is it in the majestic kAmbOdhi or the lyrics of GKB or is it both.May be the lyrics appreciation is there for some time , but later are you just engrossed in the musical bhakthi of kAmbOdhi.
3.I assume you also know telugu. When vintage madurai mani to a modern suryaprakAsh sings a neraval with one word itavU (itavU mAtalantu)in sarasa SAma dhana , is there a meaning for that word itavU. For me that neraval and the subsequent swaram is the best. What portion in the concert you like the most sir?
4. The meaning of nidhichala sukhama is a one time exercise that I appreciate . I don't like that krithi that much as what vasudevayani in kalyAni delivers .For me till now I know the meaning of nidhichala to some extent , but no idea about the meaning of vasudevayani . But which is everlasting, i bet it is vasudevayani for me,how about you Sir.
I am asking you these questions as certainly you posess a higher appreciation of music than definitely me.Correct me if I am wrong anywhere. Please help me
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
First we have to concede that CM is multidimensional. We can always produce counter examples for any particular thesis. We also accept that there are different brands of music. Particularly HM, WM and even FM (Film Music) address different areas of our brain. The word 'carnatic' is important in the context of CM. Our CM is more the 'cocoanut' which you have to break apart to enjoy the juice inside. The paddhati and tradition are very important to understand and appreciate which is one of the reasons Westerners don't flock to CM as they often do to HM!It takes a few years of concert attendance to get a feel for CM, let alone become a Rasika. During this period we interact with fellow Rasikas to get to know the nuances (which includes the 'anecdotes' and even the mannerisms of the performer). The 'gurukulam' system fostered the transmission of the whole bundle (which unfortunately is getting lost 
We usually ask the question 'who is the Guru?' which is not irrelevant in the CM context. Of course I am generalizing and there are exceptions. CM is Holistic. The day we lose touch with our past we lose CM as an entity.
That introduction was necessary to talk about the importance of the 'kritis'. There are umpteen number of vaggeyakaras with great scholarship and musical skills; but our heart always goes only for the traditional ones. One can replace 'rama' with 'Jesus' or 'allah' and sing a better music but it will no longer be 'carnatic'. Again Instrumental Music without 'underlying kritis' will not be strictly 'carnatic' (I have to be careful here!). Pure raga elaboration is just fine in HM but not so in CM. There are no such written rules! It is all a part of our psychological makeup and traditional values. That is what we wish to transmit to our future generation of offsprings! That little five-year old who struggled to get the lines (who could have filled it with 'nonsense' syllables) is making an honest attempt to learn 'carnatic' music. Someday she would ask what it meant and the 'deity' behind the verse and then she is fully integrated into our culture and truly becomes a 'torch-bearer'.
I may not have answered your queries directly but as an old fashioned I am voicing my concerns against the loss of our 'culture'. One might translate gIta into tamil and get all the messages and even musically recite it. But it will no longer be the "bhagavad gItA".
We usually ask the question 'who is the Guru?' which is not irrelevant in the CM context. Of course I am generalizing and there are exceptions. CM is Holistic. The day we lose touch with our past we lose CM as an entity. That introduction was necessary to talk about the importance of the 'kritis'. There are umpteen number of vaggeyakaras with great scholarship and musical skills; but our heart always goes only for the traditional ones. One can replace 'rama' with 'Jesus' or 'allah' and sing a better music but it will no longer be 'carnatic'. Again Instrumental Music without 'underlying kritis' will not be strictly 'carnatic' (I have to be careful here!). Pure raga elaboration is just fine in HM but not so in CM. There are no such written rules! It is all a part of our psychological makeup and traditional values. That is what we wish to transmit to our future generation of offsprings! That little five-year old who struggled to get the lines (who could have filled it with 'nonsense' syllables) is making an honest attempt to learn 'carnatic' music. Someday she would ask what it meant and the 'deity' behind the verse and then she is fully integrated into our culture and truly becomes a 'torch-bearer'.
I may not have answered your queries directly but as an old fashioned I am voicing my concerns against the loss of our 'culture'. One might translate gIta into tamil and get all the messages and even musically recite it. But it will no longer be the "bhagavad gItA".
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Vishnampettai Jayendran
- Posts: 86
- Joined: 28 Apr 2006, 11:25
one can also induce such emotions without bhakti.. thats what they tried to do in the 60s with LSD cocaine etc.cmlover wrote:In our culture Bhakti is a dominant feature of Music. There are two levels at which music can be enjoyed. The first is purely physical where the physical sensations induce pleasure (just as listening to African Rhythms). The other is intellectual where the mind has to be involved to translate the music and its meaning to create the emotional experience. The sahityam and even the circumstance of composition play a major part for the 'intellectual pleasure' which is lasting and which you will remember long after. For example knowing the background of the composition of 'nidhicAla' enhances the enjoyment tremendously more than simply knowing the meaning!
Suppose a vidvan sings 'vAtApi sarasvatIM bhajEham' in a perfect hamsadhvani how many of us will patiently sit and listen? There is no grammatical error in the sahityam but our mind will revolt at the thought of it. In music we care for syntax as well as semantic errors. I am sure we will be more upset in this context than a violation of using kaishiki in place of kaakaLi niShAdaM
its actually any interesting topic for research.. what the psychedlic combination of bhakti or any other strong emotion relased harmones, or artificiallu introduced chemicals (marijuana,lsd etc) and music does to the human brain.
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
I don't believe the term Carnatic equates to Hindu as the above implies.One can replace 'rama' with 'Jesus' or 'allah' and sing a better music but it will no longer be 'carnatic'.
For a Carnatic music concert with a Christian theme, see article below about Fr Paul Poovathingal, the 'singing priest':
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/03/31/stor ... 330200.htm
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Very interesting concert. Something to think about here. A german has written songs in malayalam and a padre sings it in the carnatic mode. A muslim plays the violin and a hindu is
percussionist. What a statement about unity! We were not there to experience the concert. Should we as rasikas question the quality of the concert or just feel good that in music, iimagined barriers melt away?
Vedanayakam Pillai's kritis come to mind...
percussionist. What a statement about unity! We were not there to experience the concert. Should we as rasikas question the quality of the concert or just feel good that in music, iimagined barriers melt away?
Vedanayakam Pillai's kritis come to mind...
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
You may call it a 'carnatic-style music'. The motive is not clear, unless they were distributing Bibles at the end of the session. Very clearly the original compositions were created to proagate Christianity in SI. Even the Italian GU Pope translated Bible into Tamil created the first Tamil dictionary, put on a pooNool and called himself Pope Iyer. I am also aware of a Christu sshasranamam similar to the vishnusahasranamam. There is also the verse
matsya kUrma varAhasya nArasimhasya vAmanaH
rAmO rAmasya rAmasya kriShNa kristu janArdanaH ||
matsya kUrma varAhasya nArasimhasya vAmanaH
rAmO rAmasya rAmasya kriShNa kristu janArdanaH ||
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kkumar29
- Posts: 46
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 20:26
Cml,
You have expressed your concerns quite nicely. As you state carnatic music is mutidimensional. By restricting it to using only compositions written in praise of Hindu Gods, don't we run the risk of making it unidimensional, stifling innovation? Couldn't other forms of music like the bhajana tradition propagate and maintain our culture?
Just wondering!!
You have expressed your concerns quite nicely. As you state carnatic music is mutidimensional. By restricting it to using only compositions written in praise of Hindu Gods, don't we run the risk of making it unidimensional, stifling innovation? Couldn't other forms of music like the bhajana tradition propagate and maintain our culture?
Just wondering!!