Paper on music reading

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 30 Mar 2012, 22:04

My colleagues and I recently published a paper on the similarities between processing of syntax in music and language.
I thought it might be interesting to some of us here, since we have discussed related issues in this forum.

The full paper is available here: http://sensorimotor.mcmaster.ca/Lab/Pub ... b_2012.pdf
I am posting an abstract here for quick reading.

Eye Movement Patterns During the Processing of Musical and Linguistic incongruities.
Stephanie Ahken, Gilles Comeau, Sylvie Hebert & Ramesh Balasubramaniam
Psychomusicology: Music, Mind & Brain. March 2012 (doi: 10.1037/a0026751)

It has been suggested that music and language share syntax-supporting brain mechanisms. Consequently, violations of syntax in either domain may have similar effects. The present study examined the effects of syntactic incongruities on eye movements and reading time in both music and language domains. In the music notation condition, the syntactic incongruities violated the prevailing musical tonality (i.e., the last bar of the incongruent sequence was a nontonic chord or nontonic note in the given key). In the linguistic condition, syntactic incongruities violated the expected grammatical structure (i.e., sentences with anomalies carrying the progressive –ing affix or the past tense inflection). Eighteen pianists were asked to sight-read and play musical phrases (music condition) and read sentences aloud (linguistic condition). Syntactic incongruities in both domains were associated with an increase in the mean proportion and duration of fixations in the target region of interest, as well as longer reading duration. The results are consistent with the growing evidence of a shared network of neural structures for syntactic processing, while not ruling out the possibility of independent networks for each domain.

Keywords: eye movements, syntactic incongruities, syntax, music, language, music reading

My plan is to eventually develop a similar experiment for studying CM (possibly using raga grammar violations and seeing if this similar to verbal grammar). Ideas/suggestions are most welcome.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Mar 2012, 23:02

Ramesh - it's beyond my ken, but congratulations!

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 31 Mar 2012, 02:10

Ravi: Thanks. would love to walk you through it someday

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 31 Mar 2012, 04:35

Too technical and a musician or vocal artist will take a pass at this subject IMHO, but congratulations thinking out of box.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 31 Mar 2012, 07:49

Ramesh - have you seen the book 'The grammar of Carnatic music' by K. G. Vijayakrishnan ? It may be of interest to you.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=PeF ... an&f=false

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Mar 2012, 09:12

Very interesting work Mahavishnu. I am aware of the tree syntax structure for language but not on the music side. Very interesting. I see how that acted as the basis for your investigation and experiment, and interesting conclusion on the similarities in language and music syntax processing. Good work, and thanks for sharing with us.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 31 Mar 2012, 09:28

Mahavishnu
Is this related to artificial intelligence . This paper is beyond me but in any case if you get any big awards/prizes let me be the first to congratulate you

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 31 Mar 2012, 09:49

VK, thanks. On talking informally with our test subjects, it became apparent to me how similar music reading is like text reading. I still struggle with reading musical notation, but most pianists that we studied can silently read a piece of music and get as much enjoyment from it as we get from reading a book!

Our work is largely aimed at the intersection of people working on the similarities between language and music. We hope it gets picked up by people outside our scientific community.

Mohan, I am aware of the book. It is on my summer (winter for you) reading list. The book seems like an excellent start for understanding the grammatical bases of CM. Have you read it?

Rajesh: This field (Cognitive Science) was born out of AI, but it has a life of its own now. Much of it now deals with experimental data from human subjects when the old AI was simulation based. The field of music cognition is a smaller niche area, now becoming very popular in academic and popular science circles.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Apr 2012, 23:51

I see a few of you feel that the paper may be beyond your reach. I just want to mention that the overall idea and the findings are quite accessible to lay readers like us. I encourage you all to give it a try.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Apr 2012, 11:06

but most pianists that we studied can silently read a piece of music and get as much enjoyment from it as we get from reading a book!

Amazing that the pianist can read and imagine not just one, but two lines of music, with many concurrent notes on each line. Long time ago, I saw a friend of mine reading an orchestral score, a whole page of lines of music to be read simultaneously. In reply to my enquiry he said, yes, he could read the page and hear the combination of instruments in his head!

What astonishing brains some people have.

Mahavishnu, we can see every day that most people have no concern for the correctness of language. They are patently not sensitive to the fact that grammar/syntax/etc is not just an academic game of no consequence, but is something that brings structure, flow and even beauty to words. Is there any evidence that musicians might be reacting to language in a way that "ordinary" people might not?

anandasangeetham · Post by **anandasangeetham** » 02 Apr 2012, 14:53

human mind (brain) is just supreme...proof enough that GOD exists....the mind just immediately processes the data given and if the processor(mind) is pre formatted with a certain programming, the reading and analysis is that much faster.....for example while we read a sydney sheldon fiction or archer fiction and if we are familiar with the topography of the place described in the novel then we tend to relate to the place and derive a higher level of satisfaction / joy / etc...similarly when Devan describes the villages near Kumabakonam and Chennai in his novel Mr Vedantham we tend to feel the place..I particularly felt i was travelling in the same by lanes of the Chennai when he described Egmore.....when we read a review (most of us will surely expereince this) in this forum and the moment we read a kriti or raga our mind tends to "sing the song or the raga" .....

Kudos to Mahavishnu and team.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Apr 2012, 16:16

Well, err... without wishing to tread on your religious sensibilities, the awesomeness of the human brain only proves that the human brain is awesome! ]

But, anyway, a quote I always remember from a special human-brain edition of a British newspaper magazine (Probably Sunday Times), around 1980, is,

"The human brain is so incredible that it may, one day, even come to understand the human brain!"

(the spiritually inclined might wonder if it will ever come to understand the human soul

)

That was over thirty years ago. Probably, as each bend in the road is reached, the road is seen just to go on ...and on ...and on.

kudos indeed to Mahavishnu and his team, and kudos to the organisation that sponsors and supports this kind of research, which is unlikely (?) to have a commercial end. A certain woman politician dealt a death blow to pure science and academia in my mother country a few decades ago

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 02 Apr 2012, 19:59

Thanks everyone.

Nick, It is interesting that you mention funding for such projects. We are funded under the umbrella of something called the "Music Literacy project". The aim of this project is to ensure that most people are literate in not just reading text but reading and appreciating music as well, even if at a very basic level. The big idea is that music literacy will promote greater harmony, prevent wars, help foster tolerance for other cultures and make us all better human beings.

The whole idea was initiated by the late Ann Southam, a Canadian composer from the Royal Conservatory in Toronto (http://www.musiccentre.ca/apps/index.cf ... d=435&by=S). Now, the project has been picked up by several people around the world including the Grammy Foundation. Fortunately, the federal research councils have decided to participate in this venture as well.

If the project works out, music education will be part of every school curriculum all over the world (like phys.ed is today). Only a small portion of these monies go toward fundamental scientific work. We were fortunate to get funded by this outfit because we are interested in the processes that the brain uses in deciphering the phonological code in both text and music.

Also: I hear you loud and clear about the damage the Thatcher years did to public science and humanities in Britain. Ironically, there is a move afoot to privatize her (possibly imminent) planned state funeral. She would have wanted it that way!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Apr 2012, 22:42

It's a wonderful initiative. I fear that music education for all in my mother country is something of a dream. Everyone talks about the advantages of sport, which encourages competition, and only a few quiet voices mention how music encourages collaborative, creative teamwork.

You are a lucky man! But I think you are well aware of that

. We are also lucky to get the benefit of your experience and research.

((((State funeral for Thatcher! Bah! Churchill, another deeply unpleasant individual (as India should be well aware) had one, but at least he, however unpleasant, had played a vital role at a vital time. Anyway, I have as much interest in Thatcher's funeral as I have in the olympics, so let us stick to more pleasant subjects!))))

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 12 Apr 2012, 16:31

reading and appreciating music as well,

http://skyview.vansd.org/lschmidt/Proje ... igence.htm

I sympathize with the view of music needing another kind of 'intelligence' altogether, like this article mentions. Teaching children to 'read' music will be a good step, certainly, but there should ideally be something to nurture (hard-core) musical intelligence more directly. Sheer 'mathematical intelligence' can substitute to some extent for 'spatial intelligence' (using coordinate geometry and all that), but a mechanical engineer, for example, will do best with something to directly nurture their spatial intelligence.

The same also holds true, to some extent, for "linguistic" intelligence:

Prof Arindama Singh wrote: It was the logic course that taught me the simplicity of English language. For the first time, I understood that grammar was not important, but logic was. I liked the simplified grammar: subject-predicate. Logic became a universal grammar for me. It provided a grammar for both English and Oriya; I was excited.

-- http://mat.iitm.ac.in/home/asingh/publi ... re-me.html

I fear that music education for all in my mother country is something of a dream. Everyone talks about the advantages of sport, which encourages competition, and only a few quiet voices mention how music encourages collaborative, creative teamwork.

Things are no better here, definitely!

MV · Post by MV » 10 Jun 2012, 13:08

Nick H wrote:Well, err... without wishing to tread on your religious sensibilities, the awesomeness of the human brain only proves that the human brain is awesome! ]

But, anyway, a quote I always remember from a special human-brain edition of a British newspaper magazine (Probably Sunday Times), around 1980, is,
"The human brain is so incredible that it may, one day, even come to understand the human brain!"
(the spiritually inclined might wonder if it will ever come to understand the human soul )

@Mahavishnu.. Kudos and Good Luck

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 10 Jun 2012, 22:00

Why, thank you MV

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 18 Jun 2012, 07:18

mahavishnu wrote:My colleagues and I recently published a paper on the similarities between processing of syntax in music and language.

My plan is to eventually develop a similar experiment for studying CM (possibly using raga grammar violations and seeing if this similar to verbal grammar). Ideas/suggestions are most welcome.

Congratulations for your paper. As far as CM and its music notation is concerned, since CM is gamaka oriented it's notation will be "Context Sensitive" language ( Noam Ckomsky's natural Language claasification- Computer languages are Context Free languages, where as English/ Sanskrit are context sensitivse).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jun 2012, 04:47

Akellaji has come up with a notation scheme for CM gamakas taking into consideration such context-sensitiveness.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 19 Jun 2012, 20:01

vs_manjunath wrote: Congratulations for your paper. As far as CM and its music notation is concerned, since CM is gamaka oriented it's notation will be "Context Sensitive" language ( Noam Ckomsky's natural Language claasification- Computer languages are Context Free languages, where as English/ Sanskrit are context sensitivse).

Thanks, Sri VS_Manjunath. You are right that development of a notation scheme for CM is context-sensitive and indeed more complicated than reading Western Music. We are fortunate that we don't have to read multiple streams at the same time, just one varying pitch/melody and rhythm thread. Many CM scholars have resisted the idea of written music altogether due to these complexities. Although, our widely used notation scheme that marks swaras corresponding to the sahityam simply follows the rules of natural language representation. Thus, sight reading as a skill is substituted by a more "vocal" representation of the sound.

As VK mentioned, there are ways of marking gamakas in written notation. I am not sure about how universal its usage is, compared to the western notation system.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 20 Jun 2012, 02:30

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, Thank you for remembering my little service to our music in venturing to properly symbolise our notation for the first time in the history in possibly quickening the process of the methods in teaching our music for our kids which is the basic need to be fulfilled in keeping our culture in tact.

Hundreds of aspirants are able to very easily sing a film song which is very easily available in a CD everywhere by listening to it hundreds of times whenever and wherever it is possible to listen. Thanks for the modern gadgets for making this possible unlike in the past. This obviously reveals that any song irrespective of non-classical or classical or light or filmy or anything could very easily be followed, grasped and reproduced even without the basic knowledge of music if it is readily available in the form of a cassette or CD. In such case, if we make the process of teaching the basics of our classical music also much easier to our kids, right from his/her younger age, along with the aids of pre-recorded material of either cassette or CD, even the classical music could also be learnt very easily within a very short time without wasting many years of time like in the past. For this the knowledgeable people of our music, the stalwarts like Sangitakalanidhis or Sangitasaamrats or Sangitasaarvabhaumaas who have been earning everything from the public must strive hard to pay back the society sincerely and honestly by standardising the things of music removing their ambiguity and cumbersomeness.

For example, the Late Subbarama Dikshitar was the first person to think of standardising our Gamakas and writing the compositions in notation. Thus, unlike any other musician of his times, for the first time, he ventured a very little by introducing a handful of symbols in the notation and published the monumental work, Sangita Sampradayapradarshini even in the beginning of the 19th century. Everybody talks very high of this work and this has been brought out even in other languages. But, most unfortunately, even after 100 years of time, none of these stalwarts ever think of continuing the venture of symbolising our notational system and to bring our music much nearer to the aspirants through notated compositions in books and pre-recorded modern gadgets like cassettes or CDs or mp3 players. Even now, some of the stalwarts are publishing music-books with or without notations but certainly without symbolising the notation and even without any cassette or CD. Pitiably enough, everybody is bothered about his honours, titles, money, fame, foreign trips etc. etc., only but not of our kids and their future. In fact, this is a heart-burning problem to a sincere and honest person. The Almighty alone should save this country. amsharma

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 20 Jun 2012, 04:57

Prof AMS Sharmaji - I will be highly thankful if you can you pl provide URL for your list of gamaka notations.

Mahavishnu-i am deeply interested in defining a grammar mathematically for CM as i have studied this subject upto a cetain extent.
Towards this end, Prof AMS's gamaka list will be the starting point !!!

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 20 Jun 2012, 11:56

Dear brother, vs_manjunath, At the first instance I thank you a lot on behalf of the entire Karnataka-music community for affectionately coming forward to help in standardising our Gamakas unlike all our so called stalwarts. In this connection, even after my retirement from Govt’s service, seeing the plight of our aspirants, I was compelled to do something for the benefit of our kids. In this process I have given the full details of all the oscillations along with their symbols, phrases and the audio-files. The details are available in the pdf files of my CD, AMS Easy Methods-2007 which could be downloaded from http://www.sangeethamshare.org/chandra/ ... hods-2007/. Kindly go through them and help us. amsharma

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 22 Jun 2012, 03:16

Prof AMS Sharmaji- Will it be possible to provide URL to pdf file having gamaka notations to Thodi Raga ? ( In Gurukulam conducted at Annamanada, you have circulated one printed sheet having the Raga Alapana of Thodi in "Music Notation with your gamaka noatations incorporated" If the pdf file if readily not available, this sheet can be SCANNED and made as a pdf file.)

I feel this will be a starting point for our goal namely trying to define a mathematical grammar to CM

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 22 Jun 2012, 04:13

Dear brother-member, vs_manjunath, Only very recently I was able to upload some videos to Youtube and some audios along with pdf files to ‘Sangeethamshare’ in respect of AMS-Kalpanasvara-exercises. Again, in the same manner, just yesterday only I have uploaded some videos to Youtube even in respect of AMS-Ragalapana-exercises and even the audio and pdf files of the same are under the process of uploading to ‘Sangeethamshare’. If you visit ‘Sangeethamshare’ after a few days you will certainly find the needed audio and pdf files of Todi-raga along with symbolised notation. Also the details of all the video, audio and pdf files along with the respective URLs could be obtained from the sub-thread ‘AMS Easy Methods-2007-CD – Teaching & Learning Methods of A.M.Sharma’ of the main-thread ‘Music school’.

However, just now, I have despatched both the audio and pdf files of Todi-raga to your email address. Please make it convenient to go through them and do the needful. amsharma

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 22 Jun 2012, 18:55

Dear brother-member, vs_manujunath,

At the first instance, I sincerely feel that it is beneficial to the aspirants if we discuss the details of Gamakas and post our views in ‘rasikas’ only. That is why I am posting my reply to your letter in ‘rasikas’ also and I shall feel happy if you also post your views in ‘rasikas’ as we both are working together to serve our community sincerely and honestly without any ulterior motive.

1. I hereby enclose the respective pdf file of the Symbolized-gamaka-notation (SGN)’ as desired by you.

2. As you wrote it is true that Thodi is sung by each artist based on artist’s Manodharmam and we have records of Todi sung by stalwarts: GNB, Ariyakudi, Semmangudi, MMI, MS, MLV, Ramnad etc.,etc. Your question is can we notate each stalwart’s Thodi by this SGN?

Certainly, I can very well notate efficiently anybody’s Todi using this SGN I have brought out.

3. Although each one sings Thodi only, their approach to the Raga will be different.

Their approach to the Raga may be different but the oscillations of notes of Todi are supposed to be the same. If not we cannot call it Todi at all.

4. Your question is : Can we notate each Stalwart's Thodi by my GAMAKA Notation ?? Birkas & Gamaka employed by each artist will be different.

Yes, we can efficiently notate each stalwart’s Birkas or Gamakas of Todi by this SGN. It is important to note that Birkas may be different but Gamakas of Todi must be the same.

As I am very poor in mathematics, of course, I cannot talk about mathematics but can very well talk about Gamakas if the listener can bear with me.

As the Skype is less expensive than a phone, I prefer to discuss by Skype than the phone. My Skype ID is ‘msakella2002’ and you are welcome to discuss things by Skype. amsharma

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 01 Jul 2012, 08:08

Prof AMS Sharmaji- Thanks for your clarifications and reply to all my queries. To move forward i request you to please initiate of notaing THODI alapana using SGN of stalwarts one by one. I request you to please initiate SGN process for Thodi rendered by GNB to start with. I have heard GNB's thodi alapana atleast 3 different GNB Thodi versions which i am listimg.

1. Ananda Natesha (Ramaswamy Sivan's composition ? )
2.Thaamadame( P SIvan composition)
3. Kaddanu vaariki( Thyagara)

GNB has sung Thodi alaapana before rendering each of the above songs. Although i can't provide URLs to the above, all of them are/will be available in Sangeetrhapriya site.

I request esteemed rasika members of this forum who are GNB fans to help us in searching and providing required URLs.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 01 Jul 2012, 15:37

Dear brother-member, vs_manjunath, If you send me the Ragalapana of them I shall certainly try to apply SGN and send them to you. amsharma

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 02 Jul 2012, 08:07

Second song in the above list-GNB's rendition is available here
http://sangeethamshare.org/murthy/116-G ... -20.10.07/

Hope it works !

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 02 Jul 2012, 09:27

The link you have furnished did not work at all, Sir. amsharma

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 02 Jul 2012, 13:09

Sir, i am providing three more links for the same song. I am sure one of them works. MLV's rendition is Xcellent.

SKR's rendition:

http://sangeethamshare.org/murthy/149-S ... PSivan.mp3

MLV's rendition:

http://sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLOADS- ... 5.33MB.mp3

TVR's rendition:

http://sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLOADS- ... 0.9_MB.mp3

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 02 Jul 2012, 15:55

Surprisingly none of them did work. However, if you already have, you can send them even by gmail. amsharma

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 03 Jul 2012, 03:29

It appears www.sangeethamshare.org is down and was not able to access the site.
I am making parallel arangements to get the URL.
You may have recording of 'dAsu ko valEna" sung by DKP or Alathur Brothers. Any stalwarts THodi is fine.

I am sure u would have Thodi by MSG/Lalgudi, pl notate SGN for this recording which will help to us go forward.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 03 Jul 2012, 07:23

The problem is not with the cycle, dear, but with the person who cannot cycle properly and ably. In such case there is no use even if he has hundreds of cycles.

I have already sent you both the audio and SGN written pdf files of Todi-raga I have already sung along with the pdf file containing the full details of the SGN. By carefully going through all these details any person who properly understands the scheme of the SGN and follows it while notating the Raga sung by any musician, irrespective of Vocalist or instrumentalist, can very easily notate any Raga sung by any artist. That’s all. Then, I do not understand why you are asking me to notate the Raga sung or played by a particular artist.

Of course, I also have 73 Nos. of Todi-ragalapana-bits of Shri MSG, 59 Nos. of Shri Lalgudi, 19 Nos. of Shri M. Chandrashekharan, 26 Nos. of Shri Nedunuri Krishnamurthy, 16 Nos. of Shri Voleti Venkateshwarlu etc., etc. But, I do not understand what difference it makes if I notate the Raga of some other artist when none of them sings or plays the same Raga with different notes. Then, why do you need another notated raga? If at all you need, you can yourself do it as well had you understood the details of the scheme properly. Hope you understood it and ably do it properly. amsharma

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 03 Jul 2012, 13:27

Dear Shri Manujunath, Thank you for your kind greetings of Gurupoornima.

Previously when you have sent me your requirements through email I have already suggested you to hereafter post our letters in these columns only to be helpful to the aspirants. But, now again you have sent me another email. However, I shall write through email and through these columns also. Hereafter please write in the columns of rasikas only.

I have understood your point and I already know this point. That is why I have already sent you a list of 27 phrases of Kaishiki-nishada alone. If you go through that patiently in detail, I think, you can arrive at your point. Please try. amsharma

rasikas.org

Paper on music reading

Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading

Re: Paper on music reading