Interesting Articles

[ksl]

f they needed it easy because they conducted and sang the sabdams then they would have set the varnams also only to one raga/tala.

I didnt mean ease in singing. I just meant that sabdam being the first item in abhinaya to be taught, they wanted to keep it consistent for ease of the dancer and maybe as a signature of the sabdam. But i agree, maybe not enough sabdams are known. But kambodhi is a dominant sabdam ragam and not just that, the tune and jathis remain the same amongst many sabdams. So, its not really a same ragam issue. Its the same tune and same shollukattu. Like someone mentioned ta tei ya tei is a definite sabdam signature in kambodi.

[kuchipudivaibhavam]

Yes. My propaganda is against any institutional propaganda. And it is not gentle at all. Thats why i called u out even though u only talk about kuchipudi facts and participate in this forum whenever someone writes something against kuchipudi.

@ksl,

We write only whenever somebody mentions Kuchipudi (in a positive or negative sense), only because we have the training and knowledge of that dance form. You can see others appreciate our stance. We do not believe in airing unqualified views on any dance form left and right, and thereafter try in vain to substantiate it with verbiage.

Please do not cover up the words "so not classical" with verbal jugglery. It was pretty straightforward what you intended to say. The matter was not whether Kuchipudi is classical/inferior or not, but the fact that you took it upon yourself to assign classicality to adavus or movements, with a background in SWCNTs and Silver particles!! Anyway we do not want to debate on that. Henceforth, if you have some "personal opinions/ advice" to give us, you can message us on rasikas board or email us, or give it to us on facebook (like we did). We do not like getting into long drawn out verbal battles with others. However, we make it clear beforehand that if we feel your message is once again trying to indirectly preach/ take a dubious stance and doesn't merit a response, you most certainly wont hear from us henceforth.

[kannagi99]

Is Kuchipudi Vaibhavam some some sort of trade union or PR firm for Kuchipudi artistes? I love the use of "we" in the posts

[smala]

Dear KV :

I don't know if KV represents a dance group or if the "we" is just a polite way to represent he/she/they - but whatever it is - please DO continue writing and contributing - EVEN IF you do so only with regards to kuchipudi. That is your expertise/interest so it adds to our body of knowledge. There is NO pre-requisite to participate or exchange ideas in a forum like this one.

Natya sub-section in Rasikas is NOT tantamount to B.N and cannot be hijacked by one person trying to dominate it. This a pan-dance thread that has room for all.

No matter how contentious, extremely argumentative, prone to nit-pick, given to drawn-out silly and anal **some** posts maybe, please do not buckle in to such bull-dozing tactics!

I hope your interest in Kuchipudi will CONTINUE to make you contribute on related matters.

[sathirdance]

@ksl

Yes sollu's and tune are the same for the TQ sabdams as we use now. But they were added later. For most they are not mentioned in the orginal texts.

[smala]

Incidentally, in some cultures, it is a polite and customary way to address oneself in the plural rather than the singular.

In Kerala, while speaking, the speaker often uses "we" and "us" but that does not mean he/she represents a group every time they speak. In fact, "we" is not only **inclusive** it is a humble, non-egoistic way of speaking, since "I" is a self-centered representation.

"And how are WE this morning?" - you might hear this from an American too!

****************

So if KV represents a group of Kuchipudi dancers, so be it. No skin off anybody's back !

[Nick H]

In British English it denotes status. It's called the "royal we".

Apart from that it smacks of old-fashioned matrons and "Are we all having fun?" holiday camp guides.

Interesting that the Mallu use seems quite opposite!

[kannagi99]

Just saw this from another thread - http://kuchipudivaibhavam.org/

I don't think anyone is trying to bull doze anyone else from the forum. The posts may be a bit over zealous sometimes but I personally learn a lot from the debates. If someone has a predisposed agenda, isn't it better to know that rather than accepting everything they say as fact? This is particularly dangerous for those of us who know very little about a particular subject and run the risk of absorbing biased information as fact.

[smala]

Sorry, Kannagi, I am a relative new-comer, I disagree - the tenor of ksl's posts, besides being prolific (some knowledge-based), is contentious, exceedingly argumentative.

It also displays a tendency towards one-upmanship, as pointed out by KV, whenever **anyone** refutes or points out a flaw in her "arguments/statements" with her having to have the last word.
Coming down heavy-preachy, as in the case of KV whose only fault is the use of "we" - the bull-dozing is obvious.

But then I am beginning to feel there may be just *one* band-wagon here.

[smala]

I did not address this concern :

.."If someone has a predisposed agenda, isn't it better to know that rather than accepting everything they say as fact? This is particularly dangerous for those of us who know very little about a particular subject and run the risk of absorbing biased information as fact."

As yet, posts from KV do not reflect any agenda to me, as a non-partisan member. They have provided some factual details of a particular desi dance form, as known to KV - if the details presented are questionable, by all means do so. That would provide for an interesting exchange.

The presentation of details itself does not accrue to "propaganda", simply because KV uses "we" or signs off with "kuchipudi vaibhavam".

[kuchipudivaibhavam]

@ All,

Haha! That was a very illuminating discussion on the comparitive linguistics of pronoun "we"!!

"We" would like to clarify now that we are neither royal dowagers nor staid matrons!!

"We" use "we" only because our team wants to make sure that the inputs we give to the discussion are something that has the approval of everyone on our team, and that we don't become over zealous or preachy! If it was to be one person writing or airing their individual opinion, then we would have done so from our own accounts!!

This is only to ensure that even from amongst our team, any opinion elicited does not constitute any sort of unqualified opinion / propaganda. (We come from different Kuchipudi backgrounds and sishya paramparas, to ensure their is no agenda/ propaganda/ promotion in our writings). Hence the we is a representative of the fact we are simply giving an opinion which has the approval of our team members. That is all! (we would have loved to put a benign smiley here, but somehow, the smiling smiley on rasikas forum looks devious!! )

Thanks, Shyama Priya for understanding us!

@kannagi

Our single point agenda is to share whatever little knowledge we have about the dance form of Kuchipudi with everyone else. We do not shy away from acknowledging its shortcomings, we equally do not shy away from clearing misconceptions if we can.

To most, "we" guess our name maybe a cause of concern, "Kuchipudi Vaibhavam" means the greatness of kuchipudi, yes, but inasmuch, it doesn't amount to a conspiracy to prove Kuchipudi as the ultimate, as some have tried to make it out to be! After all, "What's in a name?"

Best Regards,
Kuchipudi Vaibhavam

[Nick H]

Well, this is strange.

Actually the whole point of a forum such as this is that it is a conversation among in individuals. I'm not sure that it is even allowed for more than one person to use a shared or joint ID.

[smala]

KV :

Now that all speculation has ended with your open declaration - that you are indeed a team, can I ask that you desist from the use of "we" and just make your points objectively, like most do on this forum. To be honest, the "we" is a bit jarring. Since it is one person who is using the keyboard and representing your group, that person can be your designated spokesperson. You could still sign off on behalf of KV. Could you do this to be fair and on equal ground with all of us who post as individuals?

This will raise the comfort-level for all as well as set everyone at ease to drop their guard. Individuals might find it easier to reply, knowing they are not up against a group, if there are dissenting views or counter-points to your "assertive" statements as a team.

Hope you take this recommendation well.

[Nick H]

http://kuchipudivaibhavam.org ?

About

Kuchipudi Vaibhavam is a compendium of all knowledge pertaining to Kuchipudi: the vibrancy (of discussions, interviews), the fluidity (of theory expostulations) and passion (of propagating Kuchipudi), in short of all the qualities that signify Kuchipudi dance.

Our mission is to propagate and promote the Kuchipudi sampradaya of Indian classical dance online, and serve as a platform of discussion, debate and enhancement of everyone’s Kuchipudi knowledge.

The members of team Kuchipudi Vaibhavam come from a variety of backgrounds from research scholars, to professionals, to artists. They are all bound by a common love for the art of Kuchipudi and the passion to promote it across a variety of platforms.

Kuchipudi Vaibhavam is not associated/affiliated with any dance institution/arts organization and strives to maintain its non-partisan outlook in all content produced herein. Kuchipudi Vaibhavam is managed on a purely voluntary basis.

The "team" seams committed to anonymity. Whilst that is normal and usual on a forum, it is not so usual on a site which sets out to be authoritative. Perhaps they think they should be judged by their content rather than their names?

[ganeshpv]

Whatever the reason for chosing kAmbhOji as the rAga for Sabdams may be, subsequent composers of rAgamAlika Sabdams always used kAmbhOji as the first rAga (and I have to say that I find the initial 'tAtaiyA tai tattatAm' in kAmbhOji very thrilling to hear), until Madurai Sri Krishnan's dEvi tAyE which eschews kAmbhOji completely. Are there other such examples?

yes... several modern composers have created sabdams that do not start in Kamboji. I believe I heard one starting in Keeravani recently.

[ganeshpv]

Regarding TQ writing Sabdams in other Ragas, for my part I believe if TQ did write sabdams in other ragas, then we would at least have some of them still around in the way of passing down from TQ. And it's hard for me to believe TQ's manuscripts list raaga/Tala for Varnams/Jathiswarams/Thillanas but not for Sabdam.

If any one here lives in Tanjavur, they still have manuscripts in the Saraswathi mahal library there. Please check them and let us know

Interestingly, the thesis posted by KSL a few days ago says "MOST of the sabdams composed by TQ are in Kamboji raga and misra chapu tala. Kamboji being a rakthi raga with its varied melodic improvisations facilities in establishing and enriching the latent shades of the nayika-nayaka bhava and......". And the researcher interviewed Kittappa Pillai (descendant of TQ) and descendant of Maratha Kings still living in Tanjavur.

Also, sabda in nirupana 'sakhine nayakice srama.....' written by Serfoji II (patron of TQ) has sollu like thadana danadana included in it just like modern day sabdam. Another sabdam written in praise of Serfoji also has sollukattu like the ones we sing today in sabdams. So clearly, sollukattu sung in sabdam is not a 20th century inclusion but also exited during Serfoji/TQ times.

[sathirdance]

The discussion on whether the Tanjavur Quartet wrote sabdams in other raga’s or not seems rather pointless with nobody dancing sabdams anyway....or the jathiswarams, prabandams, sollukattu's, geethams and other repertoire they wrote.

[Umesh]

The discussion on whether the Tanjavur Quartet wrote sabdams in other raga’s or not seems rather pointless with nobody dancing sabdams anyway....or the jathiswarams, prabandams, sollukattu's, geethams and other repertoire they wrote.

It would be a shame to forget these compositions just because they have fallen out of vogue. And I think it is laudable if people wish to discover/rediscover vintage pieces. IMHO, it seems much less pointless than discussing whether or not "we" should be used in posts, or if Kuchipudi is a classical dance, or which style of BN is superior.

[mankuthimma]

can I ask that you desist from the use of "we"

Only Kings, Editors... and Men with tapeworm have the right to address themselves as WE.
Mark Twain

[sathirdance]

@ umesh

The discussion is not about rediscovering the sabdams. It's about their single raga/tala.

What I meant to say was instead of discussing - quoting from thesis and other books with writers opinions - those sabdams and their raga/tala, is to bring them back to the stage. Because I don't see that happening. I have learnt quite a few of those TQ sabdams. So next you perform in Chennai do perform those vintage sabdams and please invite me.

[kannagi99]

@sathirdance - I think the biggest problem (at least here in Chennai) is the sabha system which now typically crams in 3 dance programs in a single evening. A slot is about 1.5 hours maximum. That time includes orchestra set up/warm up and item introductions etc. Usually, that leaves about 1 hour 15 minutes at most to dance. With one invocatory item, varnam, one padam and thillana, the time limit is reached. I know of dancers who would love to perform shabdams, jathiswarams, javalis etc. as part of the recital but cannot because there is not enough time.

[sathirdance]

@kannagi99

True, but that's mostly the case in the season. Off season the recitals are longer. And instead of the boring pushpanjali/slokam, which every dancer does, it's perfectly fine to start your recital with a sabdam or jathiswaram if you love to perform them.

Most young dancers do not even know a sabdam.

[ksl]

Sorry, Kannagi, I am a relative new-comer, I disagree - the tenor of ksl's posts, besides being prolific (some knowledge-based), is contentious, exceedingly argumentative

Please take a statistics on contentious posts/knowledge bsaed posts of mine. You started the Melattur thread. My work was to warn you to not read what u believe. You played defensive for devadasi/mankuthiamma/ashwini shankar when that one started too because u thought my warning to you was "contentious and argumentative". Later u discovered what it is like to debate with what is their narrative. You are a new comer, so u admit. You will soon be a pro at recognising all the BS that goes on in the subset that is dance and internet. For a moment me and my friends discussed if u were also one of devadasi's alias id's since she has this habit of talking to her own ids. But looking at your history of video recommendations, we decided there wasnt much chance. Plus, i have seen SP contribute lyrics on hummaa and such. So, good luck with your new dance explorations. Hey! at least this thread kicked into acedmic dance discussion rather than being a session of can i ahve the lyrics for this and can i have the mudra for that.

t also displays a tendency towards one-upmanship

one-upmanship=prolific writing or argumentative writing or knowledge based writing?
It's a democracy. Unless Ashwini Shankar is causing u nightmares, everyone an contribute as much as their like.

whenever **anyone** refutes or points out a flaw in her "arguments/statements" with her having to have the last word.

a. I am receptive to any argument
b. If i ahve the last word, its really not my fault. It's yours, you couldn't respond. So if it bugs you that much, u should take pains to research and respond.

Please do not cover up the words "so not classical" with verbal jugglery. It was pretty straightforward what you intended to say. The matter was not whether Kuchipudi is classical/inferior or not, but the fact that you took it upon yourself to assign classicality to adavus or movements, with a background in SWCNTs and Silver particles!!Anyway we do not want to debate on that.

a. You should learn reading comprehension. If you think my article assigned classicality to anything, that's your interpretation. For some reason, u didnt vocalise your objection until i called you out.
b. My background is not in Single Wall Carbon Nano tubes and silver particles (You mean silver nanoparticles???) It doesnt matter what my background is. As long as my article is good enough, narthaki will print it. You see, air is unbiased. So internet doesn't discriminate people,age, background or dance forms.Only you do.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNSDbkBG ... re=related
I can't make u believe what my intention was in writing the article. You are as polarised about Kuchipudi as Ashwini Shankar is about 'BN'.Can't help any of you who act as a mouthpiece for one thing.

Henceforth, if you have some "personal opinions/ advice" to give us, you can message us on rasikas board or email us, or give it to us on facebook (like we did).We do not like getting into long drawn out verbal battles with others.

.

a. Why would i mail u personally? I ahve nothing to promote on your website. You wrote to me personally on fb cos u wanted me to promote someone's kuchipudi on rasikas. How can i make this more clear??
b. Because it is bad for your reputation? Then dont do things which will cause me to think you are being a mouthpiece for kuchipudi-is-great narrative because none of us are the center of universe. There are dance forms outside of India and unless u broaden your horizon and appreciate other forms of dance (classical or not, Indian or not), you are going to keep circling the same old well.

However, we make it clear beforehand that if we feel your message is once again trying to indirectly preach/ take a dubious stance and doesn't merit a response, you most certainly wont hear from us henceforth.

Likewise.

[priyalasya]

Classical Dances, any dance for that matter, are more than the "technicalities". And the "classical nature" of dances - interesting fact is about the dancers and i for one do not feel the status here changes the interest of a dancer in that particular art.

Also a good opening somewhere in the thread that says folk and classical have to be treated in the same manner- that is with respect is a good one. Placing anything into a "category" "purposivley" is more important. Reminds of the famous quote of Sankara Sastry in Sankarabharanam.. "who are we to say a particular music is superior and the other is inferior". Good thing is none does that here.

Call any style either way for self-satisfaction is ok !!

[priyalasya]

Almost forgot... Is anyone saying Kuchipudi is not classical, half-classical...? Does it really matter to the joyous dancer...no!

Where it matters? Some awards go by the branding - 7, 8, 9..-- "classical dances" - termed as such in some rule-book. You want an award?- check the heading under which you fall, convince and win.

[devadasi82]

She never said, they completely cover NS. None ever can, not nowadays!

So you condemn the cheap marketing hype in
http://dspace.vidyanidhi.org.in:8080/ds ... -109-1.pdf that want us to believe that "...the dance style of Kuchipudi is strictly according to the instruction of Bharata in terms of various elements like... Karanas (body postures)...."?

Mere straddling up in poses doesn't help!

Remarkable, the author refers to Karanas as "postures" ("poses"), which shows his total ignorance. I am sure KSL doesn't even have time to read the nonsense she gives us the links to.

No dance style we know of today in India incorporates all 108 karanas!

Don't roam around on your camels there in Saudi Arabia. Come to India and see for yourself.

Hence, the low predominance of karanas in Kuchipudi in its evolution.

Maybe you folks in Saudi Arabia believe that there has been a great "evolution" in dance, but as a Hindu, I see the degradation of the arts towards the darkest end of Kali Yuga.

Everything happens for a reason.

Of course. When the "dancers" resemble retired sumo wrestlers, we know the real reason for them to avoid certain things. When I see male dancers looking like pregnant women in the 9th month...

And yes, all the classical hastas/mudras are used in Kuchipudi as well.

"Strictly according to NS"?

[devadasi82]

Does it really matter to the joyous dancer...no!

Of course it does not matter to the joyous salsa dancer from Brazil.

There are different kinds of joy.

Where it matters?

When the CBSE schools decide which style is to be considered as "classical" to be included in their curriculum. Funny enough, the SNA started to deny they have ever "conferred" any "official" "classical" status to any style.

Also a good opening somewhere in the thread that says folk and classical have to be treated in the same manner

I love rock-n-roll. Do you?

Sankara Sastry in Sankarabharanam.. "who are we to say a particular music is superior and the other is inferior".

Sankara Sastry just wanted to say that he was not qualified to judge, and that he couldn't distinguish between a good banana and a rotten one. But not all people are as ignorant as Sankara Sastry.

Some politically correct people say that any noise is music.

[rshankar]

A brief interview with Smt. Ananda Shankar Jayant, PhD: http://www.hindu.com/fr/2010/10/01/stor ... 090200.htm
I have been very impressed with her dedication, and her rather eclectic approach to the art-form. I admire her even more after her successful bout with what she calls the 'big C'!

[rshankar]

I am sure the Smt. Priyadarshini Govind/Smt. Bombay Jayashree combo would have been awesome - http://www.hindu.com/fr/2010/10/08/stor ... 260200.htm

[KSDD]

Great article (and sure polemic too!)... it´s worth reading the full version
http://sangeethas.wordpress.com/2010/10 ... ry-you-do/

[ardhanariswar]

I read KSL's full article (a rough draft? so many spelling/grammatical errors) and I'm sadly disappointed. She is guilty of what exactly she accuses Anita Ratnam of doing, which is dismissing (and occasionally insulting) one art form in favor of another. Perhaps she meant to voice the general Indian public's thought process regarding Anita's Contemporary; however, her apparent bias towards classicism debase her arguments. Calling Anita's music ubiquitous, her gestures meaningless, is equivalent to Anita's statement reducing Indian Classical to linearity and postures.

[ksl]

http://wesscholar.wesleyan.edu/cgi/view ... hon_theses

on the traditional role of devadasis and hijras in the caste system

[neerajas]

She is guilty of what exactly she accuses Anita Ratnam of doing.

I also had this impression. Too much confusion in her head.
First I almost thought that KSL was Anita Ratnam, her "classical" part fighting with the American contemporary dance & "culture", like multiple personality case.
But why doesn't KSL bemoan how Rukminidevi created contemporary dance and called it Kalakshetra Bharatanatyam? Rukminidevi and Anita Ratham are like sisters - a very similar story. Gestures are meaningless and of no aesthetic value in all Kalakshetra adavus.

[rshankar]

Gestures are meaningless and of no aesthetic value in all Kalakshetra adavus.

Your personal opinion - certainly not shared by many. Speaking of all the styles of bharatanATyam, I find all of them - from the fluid curves of the vazhuvUr and mELattUr styles (at least what I have seen of the mELattUr style on youtube) to the austere geometry of the kalAkshETra style, and all the others in between - to be aesthetically pleasing - iff they are danced well, and can be ugly in the hands (or should I say feet?) of those that are not so competent.

[ksl]

the great yoga debate is a debate going on and started by Prof. Aseem Shukla in the Washington Post. Its introspective to read the continuous intellectual property theft of Indian Philosophies and art forms (in this context, yoga) and the disturbing tendency of practitioners of these forms to distance themselves continuously from Hinduism for commercial reasons, sometimes for the sake of being contemporary, other times for crass commercial reasons.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... ebate.html

[neerajas]

tendency of practitioners of these forms to distance themselves continuously from Hinduism for commercial reasons, sometimes for the sake of being contemporary, other times for crass commercial reasons.

On the surface of it, yes, it is commercial reasons. They have to "sell" yoga to the Christian and Muslim population somehow - with the least resistance from the Church. It is more like a stealth "conversion" guerrilla tactics (which involves re-labeling and re-packaging of goods and services), and Bharatanatyam or Odissi are a big part of the game.

When you look from a higher perspective, this is the age when the organized crime syndicates and political parties, including organized religions (especially Christianity), are dying and morphing themselves into something else. We are going to see more of swami Nityananda stories. You may be surprised that the previous Pope ordered a thorough study of yogic and buddist texts in order to find out what the Catholic church could import from India! The bankrupt Catholics feel they will not survive beyond this century.

Finally, there is very little in common between yoga and some fat fraud brahmins in Tirupati ripping off millions of credulous religious Indians. There were no temples and no other organized crime in the Vedic times. And even Natya Veda appeared only in Kali Yuga.

[neerajas]

Your personal opinion - certainly not shared by many.

How do you know? Are these "many" just a handful of the NRIs who grew fond of Martha Graham's style after they left India and had to assimilate in America or Europe?

[radhikashetty]

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/article950523.ece