Lec-dem on Ragas
As part of its 12 months Music Appreciation Programme, Mudhra in association with Brahma Gana Sabha will be having a lecture -demonstration and interactive session on "Identifying Ragas"
lec-dem on Identifying Ragas
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radha bhaskar
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Last edited by radha bhaskar on 19 Oct 2009, 15:21, edited 1 time in total.
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rajaglan
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vasanthakokilam
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rajaglan: I am curious about the things you have expressed. My own half-baked idea is raga identification is the auditory equivalent of how we identify plants, trees, people, pictures by sight. The plants of a particular type are not the same but the essential visual similarities at an overall level lets us pattern match and recollect the name for it. I would like to know if there is any truth to this hypothesis.
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ganesh_mourthy
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08
It is very true. identifying ragas is more of an instinct. I never employed any methods to identify a raga ever. It is only when I listen to light music rarely I try to find the notes to make out the scale since they dont go by the strict grammer. but for someone able to make out the notes he would have become accustomed to raagas already .
Many a time when people ask me how to make out a raaga, all that I tell them is " whenever you listen to a song try to remember the raaga by looking at the label or whatever." when you have listened to a few songs in that particular raaga and when you hear a different song in the same raaga it gives you a feeling of " I have heard it before" a deja vu kind of feeling.
This is what probably vasanthakokilam says something equivalent of finding flowers or plants or trees though all are not of exactly same.
for some , you have to really help. a little hint like " does not this song sound like that"" the reply comes like. " Oh yeah ! how did I miss it ".
In my observation there are a few raagas people find out more easily. mostly varja vakra ones. But even those simple raagas becomes tough when it is adopted to light music.
raagas like Kaapi,desh,bageshri,shahana, are easier to identify.
But there is one raaga i think people identify easily , including some of my friends who is just into music and only with kelvi gnanam. that is REETHI GOWLA.
people dont fail to notice it even if it is light music. especially when its unique DMNNS is touched.
I was surprised when my friends were able to make out similarities in '" kangal irandal " with 'chinna kannan azhaikiraan" or even a small phrase in the song azhagaana ratchasia.. when comes the line "kiliye aalangiliye."
It was later that I listened to the song to confirm them.
However there are always novel methods that we do not know. I am looking forward for Radha baskar's lec dem , since this raaga notion stands as an iron curtain from making people to come in and enjoy the bliss of music. once they are able to make out raagas they are lured in automatically.
Many a time when people ask me how to make out a raaga, all that I tell them is " whenever you listen to a song try to remember the raaga by looking at the label or whatever." when you have listened to a few songs in that particular raaga and when you hear a different song in the same raaga it gives you a feeling of " I have heard it before" a deja vu kind of feeling.
This is what probably vasanthakokilam says something equivalent of finding flowers or plants or trees though all are not of exactly same.
for some , you have to really help. a little hint like " does not this song sound like that"" the reply comes like. " Oh yeah ! how did I miss it ".
In my observation there are a few raagas people find out more easily. mostly varja vakra ones. But even those simple raagas becomes tough when it is adopted to light music.
raagas like Kaapi,desh,bageshri,shahana, are easier to identify.
But there is one raaga i think people identify easily , including some of my friends who is just into music and only with kelvi gnanam. that is REETHI GOWLA.
people dont fail to notice it even if it is light music. especially when its unique DMNNS is touched.
I was surprised when my friends were able to make out similarities in '" kangal irandal " with 'chinna kannan azhaikiraan" or even a small phrase in the song azhagaana ratchasia.. when comes the line "kiliye aalangiliye."
It was later that I listened to the song to confirm them.
However there are always novel methods that we do not know. I am looking forward for Radha baskar's lec dem , since this raaga notion stands as an iron curtain from making people to come in and enjoy the bliss of music. once they are able to make out raagas they are lured in automatically.
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PUNARVASU
- Posts: 2498
- Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 05:42
Yes, the first step is 'inda pATTu mAdiri irukkE'; at this stage one does not go into the intricacies of the swaram-whether it is suddha rishabham or the other etc; it is just the connection one establishes to a known number; once the mind learns to do this it becomes easier. It is only with some rare ragams, or the vivadhi dosha ragams when one starts looking at the swaras and trying to establish the identity. Finally it boils down to this adage;
'rAgam therinjAl tAn kutcherikku pOgalAm
kutcherikku pOnAl tAn rAgam teriyum'.-
'rAgam therinjAl tAn kutcherikku pOgalAm
kutcherikku pOnAl tAn rAgam teriyum'.-
Last edited by PUNARVASU on 17 Oct 2009, 22:22, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
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VK
Is there an analogy in learning to identifying a raga to learning a language? The process being confined to aural clues only! Knowing the alphabets only will not help. You need to know the words or better the phrases. Also some basics on the grammar as to how the phrases are formed. That is what is admissible and what is not. If there is a compilation of the most common phrases in a Raga one may be able to identify it by learning them. What do you/others think?
Is there an analogy in learning to identifying a raga to learning a language? The process being confined to aural clues only! Knowing the alphabets only will not help. You need to know the words or better the phrases. Also some basics on the grammar as to how the phrases are formed. That is what is admissible and what is not. If there is a compilation of the most common phrases in a Raga one may be able to identify it by learning them. What do you/others think?
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gn.sn42
- Posts: 396
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56
Yes, this will be a valuable resource. The Iranian Radif is very similar, and it is standard for music students to study it.cmlover wrote:If there is a compilation of the most common phrases in a Raga one may be able to identify it by learning them. What do you/others think?
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vasanthakokilam
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Thanks gn.sn42. The "365 central nuclear melodies known as gushehs" is what I assume you are referring to in the context of what CML was asking. Need to learn about it more. Looks interesting. Iranian classical music does sound like it has atleast surface level similarity to HM.
CML, the analogy to language has to be quite narrow if we are limiting ourselves to people who can not sing/play any music and who can recognize ragas without any swara level knowledge ( no knowledge of alphabets, words or phrases ). The closest match would be a language you can not speak, do not have any idea on the grammar but a tleast learn to distinguish between different phrases that mean the same thing and different phrases that mean different things... The analogy has to be kept quite narrow in that sense.
CML, the analogy to language has to be quite narrow if we are limiting ourselves to people who can not sing/play any music and who can recognize ragas without any swara level knowledge ( no knowledge of alphabets, words or phrases ). The closest match would be a language you can not speak, do not have any idea on the grammar but a tleast learn to distinguish between different phrases that mean the same thing and different phrases that mean different things... The analogy has to be kept quite narrow in that sense.
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gn.sn42
- Posts: 396
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56
vasanthakokilam, yes, the gushehs in a dastgah are something like the phrases in a raga.
As I understand it, the radif was developed as a way to "save" classical Persian music. Dastgahs were being forgotten over time, and in the late nineteenth century, it was decided to gather all available information about dastgahs and their characteristic phrases into a single resource.
This was successful as it prevented further loss of musical knowledge; it has become the standard reference and study material for all music students; however, it has also had the effect of "freezing" the music as we now have an absolute standard that cannot easily be modified.
I realize that the Wikipedia article above is very sketchy; here are some slightly better links.
The radif has been identified by UNESCO as part of the "Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity". The nomination document contains an introduction to the radif.
A book on the radif (PDF document) is good in many ways; but does not actually describe the basic elements clearly. (An aside - one section (pages 213-221), comparing the music scene in Madras to that in Tehran, might be interesting to forum members.)
The Wikipedia article on Dastgah is better, and briefly describes the radif.
As I understand it, the radif was developed as a way to "save" classical Persian music. Dastgahs were being forgotten over time, and in the late nineteenth century, it was decided to gather all available information about dastgahs and their characteristic phrases into a single resource.
This was successful as it prevented further loss of musical knowledge; it has become the standard reference and study material for all music students; however, it has also had the effect of "freezing" the music as we now have an absolute standard that cannot easily be modified.
I realize that the Wikipedia article above is very sketchy; here are some slightly better links.
The radif has been identified by UNESCO as part of the "Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity". The nomination document contains an introduction to the radif.
A book on the radif (PDF document) is good in many ways; but does not actually describe the basic elements clearly. (An aside - one section (pages 213-221), comparing the music scene in Madras to that in Tehran, might be interesting to forum members.)
The Wikipedia article on Dastgah is better, and briefly describes the radif.
Last edited by gn.sn42 on 18 Oct 2009, 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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On the analogy with learning a langugage,
We can possibly broaden that analogy a bit if we consider a lay rasika's understanding and enjoyment of music ( still without any ideas on alphabet, words, phrases, grammar etc. ). Then it is similar to someone who can understand a language without being able to speak it fluently by being among speakers of that language.
Still the correspondence is limited in scope since in the case of language there is lot of contextual meaning to assist in learning through repeated experience. When someone says 'go and fetch that ball' there is a corresponding visual activity of someone going and fetching the ball. The syntax ( as a whole ) and semantics are still separate for the most part. In the case of music it goes straight to emotion and enjoyment without necessarily having to have any concrete physical meaning. There are probably built-in attributes in music which substitute for that concrete real world meaning. The syntax and semantics of what is being communicated are intermingled resulting in an undivided whole.
We can possibly broaden that analogy a bit if we consider a lay rasika's understanding and enjoyment of music ( still without any ideas on alphabet, words, phrases, grammar etc. ). Then it is similar to someone who can understand a language without being able to speak it fluently by being among speakers of that language.
Still the correspondence is limited in scope since in the case of language there is lot of contextual meaning to assist in learning through repeated experience. When someone says 'go and fetch that ball' there is a corresponding visual activity of someone going and fetching the ball. The syntax ( as a whole ) and semantics are still separate for the most part. In the case of music it goes straight to emotion and enjoyment without necessarily having to have any concrete physical meaning. There are probably built-in attributes in music which substitute for that concrete real world meaning. The syntax and semantics of what is being communicated are intermingled resulting in an undivided whole.
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Ramasubramanian M.K
- Posts: 1226
- Joined: 05 May 2009, 08:33
Folks: Let's keep this simple!!Learning to identify ragas should be made a pleasurable experience rather than an awe-inducing exercise!!Depending upon age/level of understanding about CM music in general and raga identification in particular my view is that it can be self-learned meaning beyond a rudimentary sense of the swaras(12) one does not need to know grammar to be able to identify ragas.
I would venture to say knowing the scales of the 72 melakartha ragas would not help much in identifying ragas either. As some of the posts have pointed out it is only thro hearing a couple of songs in each raga one can get a handle on a raga. Rightaway my view is that if you have not heard a song in a raga when someone sings another song in the same raga and if the song is quite representative of that raga,then the best one can do is that "it resembles this song" and if that is correct then one recalls the name of the raga. We re not talking of the Gana Ragas or some of the "second tier" ragas(this nomenclature is purely my concoction and has no rigorous proof to back it up! (example Mohanam,Hamsadhwani,Saveri,Danyasi,Bilahari etc etc) . We are talking of ragas like Eesa Manohari,Kannadagowla,salagabhairavi etc where if one is just given the notes one would not be able to identify the raga.One has to have heard krithis in those ragas--so even if the musician deftly does an alapana of Salaga Bhairavi,one has to strain to hear the notes combinations,the vakra prayogams etc and even then one would need to " scan one's databank of ragas with similar swaras and find a match and then identify the raga.
Take Jayamanohari for instance(I wonder WHY they chose not to call it AbhoSriRanjani) If a listener has not heard any song in that raga,no matter how many times the artiste brings out the crisp Ma Da Sa(as in Abhogi) in the ascent and brings out distinctly the Sa Ni Da Ma in the descent(as in Sriranjani) you would not be able to identify a raga.
What is important I found out over years of listening is NOT TO GET DISCOURAGED if you are not able to identify the raga despite the fact that the "know-it-all" sitting next to you looks at you sneeringly if you make the mistake of asking him with genuine interest what the raga is!! There is a fifty % chance that he may know the raga from the songs he has heard in that raga(Nee Bhakthi and Yagnathulu) but ask him to expound further as to what are the scales and what is the janaka ragam,he/she may not be able to tell you!!!
I would venture to say knowing the scales of the 72 melakartha ragas would not help much in identifying ragas either. As some of the posts have pointed out it is only thro hearing a couple of songs in each raga one can get a handle on a raga. Rightaway my view is that if you have not heard a song in a raga when someone sings another song in the same raga and if the song is quite representative of that raga,then the best one can do is that "it resembles this song" and if that is correct then one recalls the name of the raga. We re not talking of the Gana Ragas or some of the "second tier" ragas(this nomenclature is purely my concoction and has no rigorous proof to back it up! (example Mohanam,Hamsadhwani,Saveri,Danyasi,Bilahari etc etc) . We are talking of ragas like Eesa Manohari,Kannadagowla,salagabhairavi etc where if one is just given the notes one would not be able to identify the raga.One has to have heard krithis in those ragas--so even if the musician deftly does an alapana of Salaga Bhairavi,one has to strain to hear the notes combinations,the vakra prayogams etc and even then one would need to " scan one's databank of ragas with similar swaras and find a match and then identify the raga.
Take Jayamanohari for instance(I wonder WHY they chose not to call it AbhoSriRanjani) If a listener has not heard any song in that raga,no matter how many times the artiste brings out the crisp Ma Da Sa(as in Abhogi) in the ascent and brings out distinctly the Sa Ni Da Ma in the descent(as in Sriranjani) you would not be able to identify a raga.
What is important I found out over years of listening is NOT TO GET DISCOURAGED if you are not able to identify the raga despite the fact that the "know-it-all" sitting next to you looks at you sneeringly if you make the mistake of asking him with genuine interest what the raga is!! There is a fifty % chance that he may know the raga from the songs he has heard in that raga(Nee Bhakthi and Yagnathulu) but ask him to expound further as to what are the scales and what is the janaka ragam,he/she may not be able to tell you!!!
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munirao2001
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Human beings with developed intelligence is in constant urge to know the unknown for the refinement of the intellect.
I am confident that Dr.Radha Bhaskar, with her considerable experience and the conduct of this series "Music Appreciation", in association with the Maestro Shri O.S.Thyagarajan, will be aiming for the dissemination of the experience and the knowledge on the 'identification of ragas' for the benefit of rasikas with no exposure or insufficient exposure and knowledge on this vital aspect of CM for its true enjoyment. True enjoyment is possible with only adequate and sufficient knowledge. In the present times, with the knowledge of the rasikas not adequate for true and rich experience, it is required for encouraging the rasikas to attend the programme, get the full benefit and become richer in knowledge for the enriched enjoyment of CM.
munirao2001
I am confident that Dr.Radha Bhaskar, with her considerable experience and the conduct of this series "Music Appreciation", in association with the Maestro Shri O.S.Thyagarajan, will be aiming for the dissemination of the experience and the knowledge on the 'identification of ragas' for the benefit of rasikas with no exposure or insufficient exposure and knowledge on this vital aspect of CM for its true enjoyment. True enjoyment is possible with only adequate and sufficient knowledge. In the present times, with the knowledge of the rasikas not adequate for true and rich experience, it is required for encouraging the rasikas to attend the programme, get the full benefit and become richer in knowledge for the enriched enjoyment of CM.
munirao2001
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radha bhaskar
- Posts: 212
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I have been reading with great interest all the high level discussions that have been going on with realtion to identifying ragas. I strongly believe that a rasika need not take the aid of any film song to understand our own ragas. When a seasoned and experienced musician sings a raga, he would definitely picture the essential and vital charecterestics of it clearly before going into further elaborating it. These phrases have to be inevitably sung if you need to give the correct picture of the raga.Of course, when you have ragas like Hemavathi, Dharmavathi, Simhendramadhyamam etc.being sung, it may appear a bit confusing for the listener. But, the most popular Rakthi and Ghana ragas have distinct phrases and an education about these will definitely help a rasika to identify it. An experienced vocalist that O.S.Thiagarajan Sir is , I am sure he will give clear pictures of the ragas which we have chosen for this programme. Before taking rasikas to identify ragas, I will be making a power point presentation on what raga itself means and how it is manifest through various channels in Karnatic music.
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Ramasubramanian M.K
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- Joined: 05 May 2009, 08:33
Kudos to Radha Bhaskar for your pioneering initiatives to keep the "torch" burning,to educate rasikas and cultivate a better appreciation of our music. My father the late Mr.K.S.Mahadevan(an ardent admirer of you and your husband) always used to rhetorically ask "Why does it take such young persons like Radha Bhaskar to undertake tasks that should have been undertaken fifty years earlier by premier institutions (aka Music Academy)? I used to tease him saying you have high friends in the Academy Why don't you ask that question of them!!
I am sure forumites need not be reminded of your dogged determination and persistence in preserving the listening heritage thro your various initiatives. I particularly like your "unelitist" approach to draw genuine rasikas into your fold thro the Magazine you are publishing,the interviews of various personalities etc. I also like the way you run these activities in a manner--not competing with the "establishment" but complementing and supplementing them.
Activities like the ones you are promoting are a must in this day and age--where the highly-educated youth who are extremely motivated to learn and appreciate our pristine arts have to fight the bane of elitism prevalent in the bigger and older institutions. Simplifying our music to help them appreciate better is something you are doing admirably.I really wish institutions like yours existed when I was growing up----when one had to fight thro the barriers erected by the cultivated elite when one had to kowtow to the elites in raga identification even when they were wrong--to be summarily put down as not being mature enough to know things about music and having to listen to a grating sermon on the prowess of long-dead veterans and how we young folks are indifferent to appreciating music!! I am glad it is better late than never!!
May God give you the strength and resources to carry on your service tasks!!!
I am sure forumites need not be reminded of your dogged determination and persistence in preserving the listening heritage thro your various initiatives. I particularly like your "unelitist" approach to draw genuine rasikas into your fold thro the Magazine you are publishing,the interviews of various personalities etc. I also like the way you run these activities in a manner--not competing with the "establishment" but complementing and supplementing them.
Activities like the ones you are promoting are a must in this day and age--where the highly-educated youth who are extremely motivated to learn and appreciate our pristine arts have to fight the bane of elitism prevalent in the bigger and older institutions. Simplifying our music to help them appreciate better is something you are doing admirably.I really wish institutions like yours existed when I was growing up----when one had to fight thro the barriers erected by the cultivated elite when one had to kowtow to the elites in raga identification even when they were wrong--to be summarily put down as not being mature enough to know things about music and having to listen to a grating sermon on the prowess of long-dead veterans and how we young folks are indifferent to appreciating music!! I am glad it is better late than never!!
May God give you the strength and resources to carry on your service tasks!!!
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gn.sn42
- Posts: 396
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56
I'm glad that we never have to deal with this sort of thing nowadays. :rolleyes:Ramasubramanian M.K wrote:when I was growing up----when one had to fight thro the barriers erected by the cultivated elite when one had to kowtow to the elites in raga identification even when they were wrong--to be summarily put down as not being mature enough to know things about music and having to listen to a grating sermon on the prowess of long-dead veterans and how we young folks are indifferent to appreciating music!!
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radha bhaskar
- Posts: 212
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 17:13
I am glad to share that the session on Identifying Ragas had an overwhelming response from the audience who even sat on the stage for want of space. We took an assorted variety of ragas - rakthi, vakra and some Hindusthani based ragas and analysed their key phrases and also sang quite a few popular compositions in each raga for better identification. OST Sir did a great job of putting forth the essence of each raga in a concise and precise manner. Rasikas have expressed that they want it to be done on a continuous basis and we are trying to work out something. Anyway, it was highly satisfying to see the rasikas feel quite enlightened after the session.
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munirao2001
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- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
radha bhaskar,
It is indeed heartening to learn about the great success and overwhelming response from the rasikas. God Bless you and your dedicated team and for the success of the sessions, ahead.
Any plans for sessions at Bangalore ?
I wish and pray, radha bhaskar's coming up at all the centres of Indian Classical Music, CM in particular to educate and enlighten the rasikas on all the vital aspects of IM/CM
munirao2001
It is indeed heartening to learn about the great success and overwhelming response from the rasikas. God Bless you and your dedicated team and for the success of the sessions, ahead.
Any plans for sessions at Bangalore ?
I wish and pray, radha bhaskar's coming up at all the centres of Indian Classical Music, CM in particular to educate and enlighten the rasikas on all the vital aspects of IM/CM
munirao2001
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radha bhaskar
- Posts: 212
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 17:13
Yes, after seeing the response here, I feel we must get this movement going all over India. We will try to do something in Bangalore soon.munirao2001 wrote:radha bhaskar,
It is indeed heartening to learn about the great success and overwhelming response from the rasikas. God Bless you and your dedicated team and for the success of the sessions, ahead.
Any plans for sessions at Bangalore ?
I wish and pray, radha bhaskar's coming up at all the centres of Indian Classical Music, CM in particular to educate and enlighten the rasikas on all the vital aspects of IM/CM
munirao2001
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veeyens
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 04:25
Any amount of workshops, seminar etc will not help you in identifying the ragas unless HE has blessed you with that talent. Remember Sri Ravikiran as a a small toddler, identified many Ragas on the stage of Krishna gana sabah nearly thirty years back May SRI Rama bless you all and may you all enjoy the bliss of carnatic music
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rajaglan
- Posts: 709
- Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:34
I cannot agree here much. Gods gift or Luck (for non believers of god)veeyens wrote:Any amount of workshops, seminar etc will not help you in identifying the ragas unless HE has blessed you with that talent. Remember Sri Ravikiran as a a small toddler, identified many Ragas on the stage of Krishna gana sabah nearly thirty years back May SRI Rama bless you all and may you all enjoy the bliss of carnatic music
is not applicaple in raga identification and singing skills. The first
one is knowledge and the second one is practise. May be the Saareeram
(voice quality and sweetness) can be attributed to luck or gods gift.
Ravikiran, Balamurali and Usri are phenomenon that happens once in 10 years.
Another point to my wonder is this raga identification topic through lec-dem
and seniors of this forum seem to support and seem to create an impression
that it can be accomplished through A lec-dem. I assume this is in the context
of rasikas and not in the context of artist.
First of all I feel knowing the notes of all melagartha ragas and their
derivative ragas is not the best way. It is probably good for theoritical
analysis and for the artist but not for the rasiga in teh context of raga
identification. You have to know all (read as many) the melodies of a raga
instead of knowing the the notes. The best way is
to listen to manodharma artist's alapanas. The best people are Sanjay,
TMK, Semmangudi, MLV, Usrinivas, MMI.
The lec dem stuff can create some interest in some ragas, but unless you
keep listening to alapana and various songs, you are very likely to forget
the melodies of those ragas. Few years back, I followed a clear
sankarabaranam alapana rendition thinking that it was kamboji and
realised it was sankarabaranam only when the song started. And sometime
for me it was difficult to distinguish between Purvikalyani and Pantuvarali.
It took some time listening to PK for days to now correctly differentiate
between them. Again Bairavi and Mukari and Manchi... used to be a problem.
Bairavi was aways easy. Then Mukari became easy. But not the other two.
Some beginners have problem between todi and varali then Kalyani and mohanam.
It takes some time to settle knowing melodies. This is not a lec-dem
process.
And the film song raga identification is a waste unless a full fledged
unique raga based song (inclding BGM) is there. Those songs are of
yesteryears of MLV and MKT . There are exceptions now too but majority
of songs Nowadays have more than one raga. Many malayalam songs of 80s and 90s
are pure classical renditions. But why learn raga identification
the hard way.
The best ragas to start with are ragas with catchy melodies and very few
unique patterns like aarabhi, kamas, charukesi, bilahari, abogi,
kannada, kaanada, janaranjani, bahudari, anandabairavi,
brindavanasaranga, hamirkalyani etc. Then move to ganaraga like todi etc..
The process of raga identification is not knowing 2-3 patterns of a raga
as you will be in trouble if the artist intentionally drops those patterns.
Last edited by rajaglan on 31 Oct 2009, 18:54, edited 1 time in total.
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
Veeyens
The experience and knowledge, a sum total of experiences acquisitions is through -1) Budhi - intelligence(external-outer consiousness), Manas - intelliegence(internal-sub-consciousness), out of memory and finally 3) Chitta-intutive intelligence(deep & fortified memory of knowledge, partly inherited thorugh genetics).
N.Ravi Kiran, the great maestro's first demonstration of raga identification was at Music Academy, not at Krishna Gana Sabha. The Child NR show cased his skill out of his Chitta and Manas-the knowledge in the rich lineage, Great Maestros Narayana Iyer, Grand father and Narasimhan, Father. The child's exceptiional talent, hard and rigorous training imparted by his Father contributed to the demonstration of phenomenal 'identification memory' knowledge. NR has become the Great Maestro with deep dedication, commitment and sadhana. Supreme's choicest blessings are only to those who practice-Shravana- Manana-Nidhidhdyasana, the three stages of sadhana, attainment and enlightenment. Not attained by the myth(make believe) miracle!
The prgramme on appreciation and sessions it contains are also partly, teaching. It is aimed and serves all those with shradha and bhakthi and who are not having the knowledge-fully or partly. Who are the masters/teachers? - Dr.Radha Bhaskar and Maestro OST, with well over 4 decades of performing and teaching experience. All the rasikas interested in acquisiton and cultivation of the knowledge and rasa(taste, not fully means it), must become gluttons to savor. Shed your doubts, conflicts, pre meditated conclusions, Now, go far the new experience and knowledge, I strongly urge
munirao2001
The experience and knowledge, a sum total of experiences acquisitions is through -1) Budhi - intelligence(external-outer consiousness), Manas - intelliegence(internal-sub-consciousness), out of memory and finally 3) Chitta-intutive intelligence(deep & fortified memory of knowledge, partly inherited thorugh genetics).
N.Ravi Kiran, the great maestro's first demonstration of raga identification was at Music Academy, not at Krishna Gana Sabha. The Child NR show cased his skill out of his Chitta and Manas-the knowledge in the rich lineage, Great Maestros Narayana Iyer, Grand father and Narasimhan, Father. The child's exceptiional talent, hard and rigorous training imparted by his Father contributed to the demonstration of phenomenal 'identification memory' knowledge. NR has become the Great Maestro with deep dedication, commitment and sadhana. Supreme's choicest blessings are only to those who practice-Shravana- Manana-Nidhidhdyasana, the three stages of sadhana, attainment and enlightenment. Not attained by the myth(make believe) miracle!
The prgramme on appreciation and sessions it contains are also partly, teaching. It is aimed and serves all those with shradha and bhakthi and who are not having the knowledge-fully or partly. Who are the masters/teachers? - Dr.Radha Bhaskar and Maestro OST, with well over 4 decades of performing and teaching experience. All the rasikas interested in acquisiton and cultivation of the knowledge and rasa(taste, not fully means it), must become gluttons to savor. Shed your doubts, conflicts, pre meditated conclusions, Now, go far the new experience and knowledge, I strongly urge
munirao2001
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radha bhaskar
- Posts: 212
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 17:13
I think you are confusing the whole issue of artists being able to identify rags and rasikas doing the same. I understand from reliable sources that be it Ravikiran or even for that matter Shasank who identified ragas as toddlers, it did not happen as some magic. Their respective fathers had made painstaking efforts to train them and it was a rigorous coaching that made them what they are today. Of course, divine blessing is also vital! But, artists with no background of music at home can also make it into the field if they have the proper training, insight and intense passion for music and I am an example for that ( there is nobody in my family who sings or has a keen ear for Karnatic music). Of course, the process may be slow in such a case but it is not an impossible task.veeyens wrote:Any amount of workshops, seminar etc will not help you in identifying the ragas unless HE has blessed you with that talent. Remember Sri Ravikiran as a a small toddler, identified many Ragas on the stage of Krishna gana sabah nearly thirty years back May SRI Rama bless you all and may you all enjoy the bliss of carnatic music
Coming to rasikas, how long can we just live under the illusion that they understand everything or just keep blaming them saying that they know nothing? We have to make some efforts to educate them and only when you attend our session, you will understand all the research and effort that has gone into each presentation. It is not just naming a raga and singing endless phrases in it. We well know that this will only further complicate the issue and make rasikas run away from Karnatic music! Also, what kind of ragas should be taken at each level is very important. It is high time we simplify things and put them before the rasika in a way he can understand and enjoy it. Again, here, I am strongly of the belief that this can be done without the aid of any filmi music but all this cannot happen in a day. It is a process of evolution that the rasikas has to undergo patiently. Just as it takes at least 10 years of training for an artist to take to the platform, al least 5 years of sincere effort on the part of the rasika will definitely elevate the quality of his listening. We have to keep telling them - not in bombastic language as most musicologists do but in a language they understand. For example, a noted musicologist just kept saying in a demo - See how beautiful this kriti is and kept on singing it. Unless you tell the rasikas what is specifically beautiful about that kriti, how is he going to understand it?
From the tremendous response we have received for the past few sessions of our music appreciation, I feel we should take it as a life mission and keep on at it with the definite hope that yes, one day, it will bear the fruits!
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10123
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
Smt radha bhaskar
I really appreciate you and your husband bhaskar a lot .Mudhra to me this sabha is going strength to strength after you found a great RKM school instead of hotel park view in nungambakkam. Having said I just noticed that you are conducting raga identifying workshops which are fine , but I would prefer it to be done more in the afternoon or pre-evening session so that you always follow up with concerts where in always an artist gets a chance to present it in full. Something like your lecdem with Dr SAK Durga on GNB where you followed with nisha and sriram gangadharan's concert .That is ideal.
Nowadays I just see a little unhealthy trend is developing where concerts are taken up by few artists and many artists are getting sidelined for want of oppurtunities and at times too many lecdems , one artist interviewing another artist with some sampradaya preservation series etc, workshops etc , so as such concerts should not get reduced. Last week you had 2 lecdems on weekend evening slots. Of course you can take a counter argument saying only in evenings more folks attend but certainly that reasoning is not resonating with me well. Concerts and oppurtunities to all musicians should be of paramount importance than lecdems,workshops and interviews in the evening prime time.
Again this post is not to take anything that you and shri bhaskar are doing, mudhra is just rocking , particularly your one raga one krithi, exclusive pallavi concerts etc.
I really appreciate you and your husband bhaskar a lot .Mudhra to me this sabha is going strength to strength after you found a great RKM school instead of hotel park view in nungambakkam. Having said I just noticed that you are conducting raga identifying workshops which are fine , but I would prefer it to be done more in the afternoon or pre-evening session so that you always follow up with concerts where in always an artist gets a chance to present it in full. Something like your lecdem with Dr SAK Durga on GNB where you followed with nisha and sriram gangadharan's concert .That is ideal.
Nowadays I just see a little unhealthy trend is developing where concerts are taken up by few artists and many artists are getting sidelined for want of oppurtunities and at times too many lecdems , one artist interviewing another artist with some sampradaya preservation series etc, workshops etc , so as such concerts should not get reduced. Last week you had 2 lecdems on weekend evening slots. Of course you can take a counter argument saying only in evenings more folks attend but certainly that reasoning is not resonating with me well. Concerts and oppurtunities to all musicians should be of paramount importance than lecdems,workshops and interviews in the evening prime time.
Again this post is not to take anything that you and shri bhaskar are doing, mudhra is just rocking , particularly your one raga one krithi, exclusive pallavi concerts etc.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 03 Nov 2009, 15:31, edited 1 time in total.
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radha bhaskar
- Posts: 212
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 17:13
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veeyens
- Posts: 37
- Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 04:25
Sri Munirao2001 , In as much as i understand the saying "Ekam sat viprA: bahuDa vadanthi I recognise your right to believe that Manas, Buddhi and chitta overrides the need for divine guidance Now coming to the aspect of Sri ravikiran's demonstration, while not denying a similar demonstration might have taken place in Music academy, there was a demonstration in Krishna Gana Saba also at the time of their Gokulashtami Series concerts when the young prodigy was given one 'Seedai' for every correct answer
May Sri Rama bless you
May Sri Rama bless you