Audience pulse, differs with place?

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 06 Oct 2009, 14:04

Just trying to guage the audience temperament in different states or cities

Chennai:

Composition: Very enthusiastic youngsters, newspaper reading mamas and mamis (irritating), ardent rasikas, PRESS, group of rasikas (they go as a group wherever they go) and one or two curious fellows.

Salient features:
* they will applaud after each song or ragam or long swaram or neraval.
* very encouraging
* there are always the skeptic lot who come with their daggers and swords, and their face is lit up the moment some mistake is committed.
* well dressed youngsters, u may see them even in shorts, jeans etc.
* the HINDu correspondent and the cameraman

Sabha culture:
* u need to file an application to sing
* if u know somebody , its all the more better
* Artiste can come sing and go, nobody is there to receive, no conveyance etc.
* the remuneration will be paid on stage and artiste will be asked to sign some voucher.
* Its a Sabha market..... Sabhas dictate terms.

KERALA :

One of the most suited places to have concerts.

Location: Generally temples. Very few sabhas compared to Chennai

Composition and feel of audience:
* Audience include a nice mix of old and youth and generally sport a Kuri and are attired in Dhothi.
* Lots of serious music students.
* Tend to appreciate the rhythm part more in this part of the country (Because of exposure to Chendai, Maddhalam etc???)
* There is a serious undercurrent of devotion amongst them, especially in temple concerts, and the artist is looked upon as a divine person.
* Love sterio type song list.....typically : Vathapi, entharo, Chakkani raja, Nagumomu, Pavana Guru, Viribhoni.....u render them and u can be assured about audience satisfaction

Sabha Culture: Nice give and take relationship between organisers and artistes......lot of mutual respect...and music is not strictly a profession here. They are not as professinal or commercial? as their peers in Chennai. Generally there is somebody to receive the artiste at the station and hospitality is good.

Overall a nice place for musicians...no wonder u see a lot of them travelling to Kerala during Navarathri.

Karnataka:
* Once again a cool place to listen. However, i find a lot of regional fantisicm here. I was told one of the artists on the stage must be a Kannadiga.

* Dasar namas are preferred. Kannada compositions are appreciated.

* SPEEECH during concerts looks to be an integral part of karnataka concerts.

* Generally u find one or two kannada artists attending the concert.

* Very receptive audience

* Compared to the other two states, i would tend to think they prefer Thukkadas than the intricacies.

* Majority of the audience are Tamil speaking.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Oct 2009, 20:19

Coolkapali,
Very good 'pulse taking'!
I did not know much about the Kerala audience until I read your impressions. Not only during navaratri, but during other times of the year too, you may find Chennai artistes performing there. I gather this from fellow forumites Suryaprakash and Erode Nagaraj.
Your Chennai pulse taking is accurate, and I would guess it gets tougher as you probe more into it. Explains why many choose to scale Mt. Everest than any other summit

As for karnataka, as you say, you will find more artistes in the audience than in Chennai. You don't feel the glare of the sabha dominating the performance there-and the organizers are very much part of the audience too.
Speeches? I think karnataka organizers are as much to blame (not in all cases) as those in Chennai and other places. I have heard no speech at all, short speeches and it can be looong ones so as to spoil it for the audience in taking away the RTP time!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 06 Oct 2009, 20:26

Gods own Country is the slogan used by the Tourism Department of Kerala Government

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Oct 2009, 21:49

London:

*Lots of youngsters, all music students, a good few will be students of one of the performers on stage, if local.

*Parents of said youngsters, mostly serious music lovers themselves, although perhaps not so intellectual in their appreciation.

*Generally high standard of behaviour, and good respect for the music. Very few would be willing to pay good money to sit and read their newspapers, and maybe the relatively high ticket prices help to ensure this

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 06 Oct 2009, 21:56

coolkapali
appears a fairly good pulse reading .I have heard from a very very senior musician about kerala. He told in general for kerela audience you have to sing with more vocal power.

How about andhra/hyderabad/vizag ?? How about rest of tamilnAdu?How about bombay?

I am assuming US is more a well behaved chennai + andhra + karnataka + keralA put together

.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 06 Oct 2009, 22:40

Edit: cleaning up the clutter, as I've duplicated this downthread...

I like this thread! Go on...

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 06 Oct 2009, 22:44

I have to point Most generalizations including yours, are wrong! How many concerts have you based them on?

coolkapali wrote:

Karnataka:
* Once again a cool place to listen. However, i find a lot of regional fantisicm here. I was told one of the artists on the stage must be a Kannadiga.

You were told - Right? If this were true, about 50% of concerts I have attended in Karnataka would not have taken place!

-Ramakriya

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Oct 2009, 00:13

rajeshnat wrote:I am assuming US is more a well behaved chennai + andhra + karnataka + keralA put together .

Yet to see a kuri (wonder what that is) or a vESTi among the audience here..

Some peculiarities of audiences (limited to my experience in small towns) in the US:

* We try to provide some sort of baby sitting, especially in the smaller towns where people come from long distances. Baby sitters are usually the older kids, along with an adult (everyone takes turns).
* A coffee-maker (industrial size) or two is a must for most CM associations - coffee and snacks are usually served outside the auditorium (on the house), and people do slip out between numbers for a cup of coffee or tea.
* Invitations to the post-kutcheri dinner are very sought after.
* Ticket prices are very reasonable (especially compared to the price of tickets for some Hindustani concerts I've been to).
* The amount of kAncIpuram silk and jewelry on display would probably rival the situation in Madras.

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 07 Oct 2009, 00:34

rshankar wrote: * Ticket prices are very reasonable (especially compared to the price of tickets for some Hindustani concerts I've been to).

Sure about this one? Or are they more reasonable to regular members? Went to a CMANA double-bill on a sunday in spring '08 and thought I cud have easily bought a season ticket for 2 in a decent Chennai sabha with the same money

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Oct 2009, 01:14

sridhar_rang wrote:Sure about this one? Or are they more reasonable to regular members? Went to a CMANA double-bill on a sunday in spring '08 and thought I cud have easily bought a season ticket for 2 in a decent Chennai sabha with the same money

My comparison was to the amount I pay for HM concerts here, as well as for WM recitals. IMO, a CM concert is an order of magnitude cheaper than say a trip to the US Open when all is said and done.

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 09 Oct 2009, 07:05

Coolkapali:Great succinct summary of audience types in parts of India!! regarding the US having been a part of the CM scene(like VKV for 40 years) and one of the founders of CMANA,I find a sea-change in the artistes' attitude towards the audiences--which now consist of lots of young,eager listeners(second generation children)--I have seen some of the artistes (do not want to mention names here!) at times being condescending towards the audiences who are generally very civil and polite and even if they did not like the performance much they would not be as vocal as in Chennai. Ofcourse the pressures on artistes visiting US(especially because of geography and the multiple concerts that are a financial necessity for the tour sponsors) are very great compared to the string of performances during the December season they have to give in Chennai. Lately the artistes are keen on pushing their CD's(one artiste--a prominent one at that arrived late for the concert in NY but still refused to start the concert because the person carrying his CD's was held up in traffic and only after his" wares"---the Cd's were displayed did he start the concert!!
Also I find less sensitivity to audience requests(not the inappropriate ones that some of us- audiences make!! such as asking to sing Brocheva in Khamas after the artiste had just finished rendering harikambodhi!!) .Not to compare one generation of artistes with another, I recall once in Bombay in the early fifties,during Ariyakudi's concert,midway thro the performance well before Pallavi,my father(who was Secy of the Shanmukhanada Sabha) on an impulse "gestured" from the front row whispering "Useniyai Maranduttele"(meaning why is Useni being neglected)-Ariyakudi picking up the cue without a pause sang his Guru Poochi Iyengar's krithi--Sri Raghukula with a neat chittaswara that literally brought down the audience keeping up the tempo(ofcourse aided by the inimitable Palghat Mani Iyer).
I have noticed some of the male artistes visiting the US try to show off their "hip" side appealing to the younger audience--nothing wrong with that--just amusing!!

Overall I must admit both the artistes and the audiences have scaled new heights-the artistes with their wider repertoire and the audiences with their chastened tastes and appreciation for experimentation and innovation.
I for one--a neanderthal in the world of CM--am quite convinced the future of CM is bright and luminous!!Talk of apathy,dwindling audiences,fall in tastes and aesthetic qualities--amounts to nothing but premature caterwauling!!!

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 09 Oct 2009, 08:24

coolkapali wrote:Chennai: Composition: Very enthusiastic youngsters
KERALA : ... Composition and feel of audience: * Audience include a nice mix of old and youth

nick H wrote:London: *Lots of youngsters

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote: regarding the US ... the audiences--... now consist of lots of young,eager listeners(second generation children)

I really do like this thread!

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 09 Oct 2009, 12:35

From the artists perspective, I learn many of them like Karnataka and Kerala audiences than the
Chennai. Maharajapuram santhanam while singing Sarangan..(ragamalika) on public demand
in a vinayaka chaturthi concert sang the particular line ..'Perumai thandha Nattai as ' Perumai thandha
indha Karnataka Nattai' and said he honestly had not seen people listening with such devotion anywhere else than in karnataka. Madurai somu in a sabha concert at RamMandir said he liked Bangalore audience(and next kerala) who listen engrossed in bhakti.
TKR in a Gayana Samaj concert has remarked... idhe vandhu fine audience ..Bangalore audience illaya '
Though these opinions are from the past masters relating to periods 1970-80, the ground realities has hopefully not changed . The current day artists are not that forthcoming in their appreciation. TMK made
an exception at Chowdiah Hall last year when he appreciated the audience for observing pin drop silence.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 09 Oct 2009, 12:48

With the exception of Kerala, rasika/audience composition consists of Iyyengars and Iyers, predominantly Tamil speaking. CM is sustained by these categories of rasikas. Others are always in minority.
coolkapali
About your post 'However, I find a lot of regional fanaticism here', I wish to inform you that it is not regional fanaticism, but ' regional protectionism'. It is restricted only to the performing artists. This is the out come of Karnataka artists, irrespective of their caliber, not getting opportunities to perform in other centers-at Chennai, in particular. Chennai based artists getting majority of the opportunities at Bangalore, edging out or marginalizing the Karnataka artists. This is because, the support base of rasikas, being Iyyengars and Iyers, who prefer only the popular artists of Chennai.

It is also disheartening to note that artists from Kerala do not get any opportunities, out side Kerala, with very few exceptions, despite of the fact that the deep classicism in their renditions is profound.

If this study/exchange of information/ideas can bring remedy and equal opportunity to all the meritorious artists, your efforts will serve its true purpose!
munirao2001

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Oct 2009, 14:54

munirao2001 wrote:With the exception of Kerala, rasika/audience composition consists of Iyyengars and Iyers, predominantly Tamil speaking. CM is sustained by these categories of rasikas. Others are always in minority.

The Chennai audiences, Brahmin and otherwise, are probably outnumbered by the Sri-Lankan Tamil diaspora who (correct me if I am wrong) are neither, so although I doubt anybody can argue with your assertion so far as Chennai is concerned, so far as the world is concerned, and maybe the future of Carnatic music, I think it is not correct.

So far as the Kerala artists are concerned, are there not quite a few of our senior artists from Kerala families? But, I imagine that you are talking about artists who reside in Kerala, rather than those who, perhaps long ago, shifted their homes to Chennai.

If this study/exchange of information/ideas can bring remedy and equal opportunity to all the meritorious artists, your efforts will serve its true purpose!

Indeed!

perhaps we should discuss the parochialism of the Chennai music scene (and to many rasikas, that is the entire CM scene) in another thread? I expect we have done already

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 09 Oct 2009, 15:18

Ramasubramaniam Sir, that was a good summary. Artistes showing their "HIP" side. Can u give examples? Well, karnataka musicians not given a chance in chennai??? I guess the logistics doesnt permit that more than anything else. Like, a senior violinist, during a one off kutcheri in chennai , will hardly get paid Rs1000 on an average for accompaniment. I guess this will not be enough for a vilonist from Karnataka or Kerala as train travel itself will consume half that amount. Food, Boarding etc above that. However, during season we do find so many artisted here.
Hyderabad brothers, sisters
Malladi Brothers,
Panthula Rama,
Sreevalsan Menon,
Mysore Nagaraj and Manjunath
etc etc.

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 09 Oct 2009, 17:13

coolkapali: I am with you 100% with regard to patronage and compensation issues for artistes from Andhra Pradesh,Karnataka and Kerala. I have long been opposed to the domination of Chennai(not Tamil Nadu as a whole) and some of the prestigious(???) institutions are guilty of being indiferent to the plight of artistes from outstations--more due to insensitivity rather than outright bias/prejudice--to a large extent this has been overcome not because the institutions have "reformed" overnight but because of the younger generation of Rasikas-drawn from all parts of South India besides other cities like Bombay,Calcutta and New Delhi who thro their sheer listener-patronage force have helped artistes from outside Chennai gain a foothold.That these artistes were extraordinarily talented did not hurt the movement either!

Even as early as the Fifties when Sabhas started sprouting in cities outside Chennai(Bombay/Calcutta/New delhi),despite their poor financial condition their rewards to the performing musicians was far more generous so much so that artistes--even big name artistes would look forward to the concert in Bombay(in those days Shanmukhananda Sabha was the only game in town besides Khar sabha and the Chembur sabha) and if lucky they could get atleast two concerts in one trip!!Naturally these Sabhas cannot afford to invite the artistes more than once a year.

I also suspect that some of the Chennai institutions tacitly "flaunt" their self-styled "elite" status and the artistes put up with it more because they want to cater to their growing listener-constituency in Chennai than due to any overwhelming desire to perform under their banner!!

I do not intend to paint the Chennai-based institutions--more the established ones--as ill-motivated but the fact remains that artistes have to struggle to gain foothold and traction and the Chennai forums do give them the opportunity and the leverage does not go unutilised by the Institutions. The increasing Corporate underwritings and individual philanthropy have pretty much eliminated the necessity for the Institutions to "pony-up" their financial rewards!!!

Part of the problem in my opinion based on observations of Institutions operations in Chennai,Bombay and abroad especially North America is that the Chennai-based institutions are "loathe" to increase their revenue base thro scaling up of membership dues--while in the past the CM listener base may not have been financially well-off it is no longer true!! I must also admit, the Rasika Ranjani sabha in Mylapore-Chennai( my father was a member since the thirties and I inherited his membership in the fifties--because the Sundareswarar hall where the RR Sabha concerts used to be held could not accommodate more so that the membership was "prized" and handed down from father to son!!! Yet I remember in the fifties (when I was in College in Chennai) I used to get three events by RR Sabha(one music concert, a drama by TKS brothers,YGP troupe and a dance event)--all for the monthly membership fee of Rs. 2.50 --they could have raised the membership dues but they did not!! I remember a funny incident re: RR Sabha. Once there was an Ariyakudi(with Papa/Mani) concert. I was standing outside to help out the artistes especially Mani Iyer(with his mridangam and other parphernalia). The then Secretry-the late Mr. Natesa Iyer--was standing outside with his arms folded next to me at the entrance--ostensibly to "greet" the artistes when they arrive.

Ariyakudi arrives in a Taxi,and seeing Natesan-- sports his usual charming grin and "hesitates" to "discharge" the taxi thinking that Mr.Natesan would offer to "pick" up the tab(I think Ariyakudi still had his HQ in Kumbakonam those days) so that he expected to be treated as an outstation artiste!! Natesan unflappable did not budge or order his assistants to pay off the taxi--poor Ariyakudi had to shell out and walk in!! The point is not that Natesan was trying to establish a precedent or playing 'scrooge' but simply his member-base and revenue base did not permit any extraneous expenditure and he was not in favor of raising ticket prices because of the economic situation of his constituents.

I am not saying Natesan was right or Ariyakudi was wrong in his expectation(afterall in the fifties he was still the Seniormost artiste on the CM scene!).

Although this is a deviation from the theme of this topic I thought this offers an insight into how the artiste-institution nexus has evolved over the years and how the compensation issue is linked to this nexus.The players are the same but the environment is far more affluent and prosperous !!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 09 Oct 2009, 18:22

nick H wrote:The Chennai audiences, Brahmin and otherwise, are probably outnumbered by the Sri-Lankan Tamil diaspora who (correct me if I am wrong) are neither, so although I doubt anybody can argue with your assertion so far as Chennai is concerned, so far as the world is concerned, and maybe the future of Carnatic music, I think it is not correct.

Nick, that may be true of London or UK audiences, but IMO, not true of the audiences here in the US (my experience is limited to the midwest and now, the East Coast).

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 Oct 2009, 19:31

Sri Lankan Tamil probably only prefer songs in Tamil and a group of them from this side of US attend the Aradhana in Cleveland.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 09 Oct 2009, 20:58

munirao2001 wrote: It is also disheartening to note that artists from Kerala do not get any opportunities, out side Kerala, with very few exceptions, despite of the fact that the deep classicism in their renditions is profound.

Very true. Otherwise, the rest of the world should not have to wait until Parasala Ponnammal was in her 80s.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Oct 2009, 21:07

RMK,
Your Ariyakkudi incident is illuminating. Yes, there were dedicated, principled organizers and great or small, performers who would get everything they could from the organizers! What has happened in the past so many years is that the organizers in Chennai are power-wielders (except when it comes to super stars?) because they deal with hundreds of aspirants who line up at their doors just to get a chance to be showcased. This has desensitized some, I think. One of the results of this is their dealings with out of state/city performers. Since Chennai has become the undisputed center of CM, they think they are doing a favor by granting slots to out-of-towners and the artistes put up with it too because they know getting a chance to play in Chennai does not come easy!
This is where I think chamber concerts and smaller sabhas can make a difference. I'm not sure about this, but Ragasudha comes to mind--performing there these days means you really have merit. You are taken seriously. Am I right about this?
Here is something enthusiastic and dedicated younger generation of music lovers who like to be organizers can ponder about: to base there occupation as organizers on the lines of th power-wielding sabhas or to get a new perspective on catering well to the rasikAs and to being sensitive when it comes to the needs of the artistes. The newbies can develop their own philosophy about nourishing music --which translates into nourishing artistes and listeners alike.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 09 Oct 2009, 21:23

Let us also have the following perspectives which are facts too:
1. There are lot of very very deserving artists who are from chennai but still not able to penetrate into chennai sabhas. They are sidelined because of politicking.

2. Also very few stars who are from chennai ,who have been singing for few decades with excellence are still not getting moved from afternoon to evening slot because of politicking.

So even in the line of sight does not give them chances.I think it would be fair to characterize in general few big sabhas of chennai (i think of atleast three)are partly partial.

In the recent krishna ghana sabha gokulashtami schedule that is going on, few slots which are given on saturday/sunday for artists based in TamilNadu , karnataka and andhra are kind of shocking . They getting prime evening on sat/sun is simply quite shocking.

Having said that :
Personally being based in chennai I miss few artists from other states like bangalore shankar, manda sudha rani(these two I have heard them atleast once..) and srivalsan menon (whom I have not heard) a lot . But artists who are from chennai like s.kasturirangan whose recording I have heard , I am unable to spot him at all. So unfainess is also distributed.

The only way to correct this aberration and make it much more fair is to have double the sabhas as of today everywhere inclusive of chennai, so that infrastructure meets the demands of aspiration and count of artists.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Oct 2009, 21:35

VKR,
I beg to differ. While they prefer tamizh songs to a great extent, I don't think they reject CM totally if the songs are not in tamizh!
Look at it this way: the immigrants, the srilankans, malaysians and others, and those of us from the west--we make up a considerable portion of CM listeners. Rasanai (appreciation) is what counts. If this is not convincing, just think of the enormous number of those who were born in castes where they had every chance to appreciate CM more than others and they turn a deaf ear to CM!
Of course, we all have our love for our languages and feel very happy if the performer sings a few songs in our own language. But then again, in CM where there are compositions in several languages, music is more the issue than language. Let's say I love to hear tamizh songs more than any other. As someone who loves music too, I may not like an all tamizh concerts if the songs are not weighty in the main part of the concert. Music and language coexist in a performance and imagination and careful structuring by the performer will please most of the listeners. Obvious misses are when not a single song in the spoken language of the people of that particular town is sung.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Oct 2009, 21:39

The only way to correct this aberration and make it much more fair is to have double the sabhas as of today everywhere inclusive of chennai, so that infrastructure meets the demands of aspiration and count of artists.

Rajesh, that is the easier thing to do, which is the supply side. Yes, that is needed, no doubt. What about the demand side? That is a tougher one to achieve but it is much more important. If the audience count increases ten fold, all of these issues will become non-issues.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Oct 2009, 21:47

Yes, Rajesh, ideal as it is, would doubling the sabhas mean doubling empty halls too?
Another thought: yes, empty seats in the hub, but how about outer limits of Chennai? If groups of dedicated enthusiasts start a sabha in each area, mostly to cater to those who love CM but cannot make it to the center with traffic and other problems, will it make a change for the better?

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 09 Oct 2009, 22:06

vasanthakokilam wrote:What about the demand side? That is a tougher one to achieve but it is much more important. If the audience count increases ten fold, all of these issues will become non-issues.

Audiences don't create themselves. Concert organizers have to work hard at creating them. The organizer must understand the market, identify the right niches, and go out there and sell the concert hard. Too often, CM concerts are arranged casually, with minimal or nonexistant marketing, and no effort is placed on selling tickets.

If an event is not well attended, it is absolutely the concert organizer's fault.

I happen to be an easy target for CM events, but even then, I get solicited very rarely by CM promoters, and often (and repeatedly, and creatively) by organizers of other musical genres. Guess which events are better attended (and have higher revenue).

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 09 Oct 2009, 22:22

vasanthakokilam wrote:
The only way to correct this aberration and make it much more fair is to have double the sabhas as of today everywhere inclusive of chennai, so that infrastructure meets the demands of aspiration and count of artists.
Rajesh, that is the easier thing to do, which is the supply side. Yes, that is needed, no doubt. What about the demand side? That is a tougher one to achieve but it is much more important. If the audience count increases ten fold, all of these issues will become non-issues.

Ten fold increase is only achieved by aruna sayeeram, but let us talk about all other artists here excepting arunA .

When I am talking about doubling of sabhas i dont want new sabhas to come up in alwarpet between 2 giants music academy and NGS(even though few days before christmas two new sabhas come right opposite to academy , one valayapatti trust in new woodlands and another maris mela in hotel maris opposite academy).

Last kutcheri season I went to attend Neyveli@psbb-kknagar crowd is huge (close to 400 to 500) , both valasarawakkam, virugambakkam pockets come to kknagar . Once I went to see one of my friends in a place called peravallur near perambur, there was a junior artist , i just attended half an hour of the concert there was close to 100 folks.

Also there is a small auditorium near my house called chandrasekara auditorium(where we held prasanna venkataraman's rasika concert), there was a concert there, about 80 to 100 folks are there in that small hall. Incidentally I know most of the crowd of rasikas there they all live near my house.

Annanagar concerts are heavily packed .There are atleast 2 or 3 new sabhas that have come up there.

I went yesterday to nanganallur to attend a concert , there are 5 sabhas and temples conducting concerts and there is quite a decent crowd much more than NGS (mini), ofcourse Nanganallur may have more brahmins than mylapore and mambalam put together.

I have not been to tambaram,chromepet ,adambakkam etc , but I am told there is quite a crowd.In all these places that I have mentioned I see the profile of the crowd is usually lots of youngsters below 20 getting initiated , that means in few years time when they grow up they will be more and more interested in cm and increase their frequency of visiting concerts. Patronage will come only when there is more frequency of rasikas visiting halls and the proximity to their home is a big deciding factor.

In short because of the count , yes for a short term some established sabhas and established artists will be hit , but long term more patronage will come .

Sorry for all those who dont know much about madras, I am sure cities like bangalore,hyderabad,bombay and Cochin needs more spread and count of sabhas. After all most of us have migrated to big cities.

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 09 Oct 2009, 22:22

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Rajesh, that is the easier thing to do, which is the supply side. Yes, that is needed, no doubt. What about the demand side? That is a tougher one to achieve but it is much more important. If the audience count increases ten fold, all of these issues will become non-issues.

It is the right sabhas that focus on supporting music. Unfortunately most if not all Sabhas are focussed on gate collection only. Artists who draw big crowds and fill the hall are featured.

In my view, there should be some sabhas whose whole objective is to promote good music, even though the audience size can be only 50 people.

Nada Inbam, Saraswathi Vaggeyakara Trust at Chennai were promoting some good artists - Rama Ravi, Kalpagam Swaminathan, .... Cleveland Aradhana has been supporting many good musicians.

Parasala Ponnnammal who did not sing much at Chennai. After the Navarathri Mandapam concert and YouTube, she starts singing at Meccademy and several sabhas. Similar story with RK Srikantan. Even though he was given Sangeetha Kalanidhi, he did not sing many concerts. Now after Cleveland Aradhana,.... now he is featured during December season.

makham · Post by **makham** » 09 Oct 2009, 22:55

I have been seeing the CM scene in Kerala for the last 40 years and coolkapali's observations are right on target. There are more serious music students, more per capita supply of ghatam and Morsing artists from Kerala than anywhere else. Mavelikara seems to be producing endless generations of mridangam artists.

However many Kerala based artists are inward looking and do not develop a cosmopolitan outlook trying to know what happens elsewhere. This is the reason as to why they don't get noticed outside. Exceptions to the rule have obviously succeeded - Sreevalson J Menon, Sankaran Namboodiri, Chertalai Ranganatha Sarma, recently SR Vinu (violin)

To segment further , my cousin a Chennai based performing musician says that audience in Calicut and Trichur are far more matured than audience in Trivandrum and I have no reason to disbelieve her.

Kerala music artists need a Finishing School training to open up their minds and make them outward looking. For example, I have mentioned to many of them to browse through rasikas.org, but I don't know how many of them have followed up.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Oct 2009, 23:27

It has passed, quite a few posts ago, but just a quick acknowledgement that my CM-abroad knowledge is London based. I extrapolate my thoughts on the Sri Lankan involvement world wide based on the knowledge that the families I know there are spread worldwide, and on the uncles, aunts and cousins that I see coming to London for instruction, and the London musicians performing for arangetrams outside UK. Please don't think that I would argue with the USA members about their turf, on which I have not even trodden!

Arasi, you are correct that the London Sri Lankan audiences will not reject a concert because it was not all Tamil songs, but they certainly will grumble if they feel they did not get their due proportion.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Oct 2009, 23:31

>London Sri Lankan audiences will not reject a concert because it was not all Tamil songs, but they certainly will grumble if they feel they did not get their due proportion

That sounds like the right and understandable attitude to take.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 10 Oct 2009, 00:55

vasanthakokilam wrote:If the audience count increases ten fold, all of these issues will become non-issues.

You sure about that? My guess would be that the issues would become at least ten fold too...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Oct 2009, 04:34

suresh, not sure as in 100% sure. It can of course create other issues but hopefully it resolves the economical issues related to hosting out of station artists in Chennai. It is the natural economic order that Demand will pull Supply with it. If local supply is limited, the organizers have to bring in external supplies

rajesh, gn.sn42, I understand now what the issue is. They need to hold concerts where the audiences are.

1. Rajesh, your point is well taken. You can have more sabhas or under the same sabha banner, one can hold concerts in different parts of the city. Either one will work.

2. Let us assume demand exists. The problem now is figuring out the concentration/density and hold concerts in places that are easy to reach.

3. We need to do some market research. Using scientific sampling techniques figure out the households to survey, have the Shishyas of the various major vidwans/volunteers spread out to the local areas, walk up to the houses and ask them if they are CM rasikas and will they attend at least -3 to 6 concerts a year if they are held in near about places. Phone calls can be used as well instead of in-person survey. There may be companies providing such survey/data collection services already. Is there an umbrella organization for the various sabhas? May be they can take this up.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 10 Oct 2009, 09:22

gn.sn42 wrote:
vasanthakokilam wrote:What about the demand side? That is a tougher one to achieve but it is much more important. If the audience count increases ten fold, all of these issues will become non-issues.
Audiences don't create themselves. Concert organizers have to work hard at creating them. The organizer must understand the market, identify the right niches, and go out there and sell the concert hard. Too often, CM concerts are arranged casually, with minimal or nonexistant marketing, and no effort is placed on selling tickets.

gn.sn42
Since you are in US/Canada (assuming so), usually all concerts are generally advertised with few pamphlets in the nearest temple, also many have websites too. I am assuming there are group email ids etc. I am assuming all that is more than enough. Organizers do part time work and as such marketing will be a costly and time consuming exercise .

Can you tell what is the kind of marketing that you miss and what is that you expect from concert organizers. Your opinion may help all the artists.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 10 Oct 2009, 13:16

rajeshnat, while some people on the forum know me, I prefer to formally claim to maintain anonymity online. (Think of me as a figment of the internet nation.) So I'll respond without being specific about myself.

As I mentioned, I'm an easy target for CM events and actively seek them out. But a CM organizer should not just focus on such easy targets. Other music organizers (and I'm generalizing here, but there is a lot of truth to this) push their events much harder and more effectively. Pamphlets in temples and email to existing members is not the way to increase your market and revenue base.

A top-of-the-line well organized programme will have their annual schedule lined up well in advance (for example, the Sep-2010 to Jun-2011 schedule will be ready by Feb 2010) and will send out a very large number of detailed mailers in several cycles: the first one in Feb 2010 will ask for subscriptions to say 10-concert packages; in March a different one will arrive offering 4-pack subscriptions; by May individual tickets will start being sold. By July 2010 they would have sold 70% of their tickets, and will have a clear idea of which shows are selling out and which are underperforming. Then they focus on the underperformers. They begin advertising those shows; they try to arrange group packages, corporate promotions, school events and so on depending on how appropriate the show would be for those audiences, and try to sell over 80% of the tickets by August or so. At this time they stop subscription sales and start focusing on the upcoming few shows: they arrange interviews for the performers on local radio, persuade the local newspapers to write about the coming programmes, and so on. Finally, they offer deeply discounted last-minute tickets for students and try to get a full house every time.

Less well organized programmes will still have their schedules set well in advance and pamphlets sent out to a large number of people well in advance.

The only difference is in the amount of funding available; but the work the marketers do is considerable.

For examples of this kind of thing at different levels of sophistication, see

The New York Philharmonic's schedule for June 2010

The Kennedy Center calendar through July 2010

The Blue Note (New York) Jazz Club's performace schedule through January 2010

The Philips Academy (a private high school) music calendar through December 2009

The Boston area Coffehouse Association calendar showing events through June 2010

The Carnatic Music Association of North America web page showing one past concert (featuring someone named Mushnam Rajaram

), one concert scheduled for the 10th and another for next month with venue TBD

;

The Madras Music Academy web site with not a word

about the December 2009 season.

In addition to the early schedules, look at the various options they provide on the web site - information, tickets, donations, related events, and so on.

Do you see my point? People make plans based on the information they have. By the time a CM organizer gets an event scheduled, it's already too late for most people as they've bought tickets elsewhere. That is, if the CM organizer gets around to actually telling people about it. Which brings me to my next point.

I have never received unsolicited information about any CM event anywhere.

Perhaps it's just me?

On the other hand I get unsolicited information about other music events all the time.

"Marketing will be a costly and time consuming exercise"? Of course it will. But how does one sell a product without marketing it? Do we think we can organize something and make it a success without spending a lot of time and effort (and money)? All the above organizations (except the coffeehouses and Blue Note) are non-profit outfits.

It's not just the small outfits in remote parts of the world that have this problem - as you can see the Music Academy has no information about their celebrated December 2009 programme.

Sorry, this post is mostly a rant (though I hope I made some points). But I made some clearer recommendations in a thread begun by rbharath a while back on poor turnouts for wonderful instrumental concerts in Chennai.

By the way I completely agree with you that there is a very large potential audience in Chennai (and in different ways in other cities). Many more sabhas (with good toilets

)are definitely needed.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Oct 2009, 16:51

I don't want to receive, and do not approve of, unsolicited information about anything; that's spam, and the fact that I may have an interest in the subject makes no difference.

However, apart from that small quibble, I take your point entirely. Unsolicited, I do not want, but to be, for instance, on the mailing list of a selection of chosen sabhas who send regular (eg monthly) advance information would be fantastic, as would being able to consult websites for future schedules. Almost all my concert going is done on a day-to-day basis by looking at The Hindu. Yes, I could cut out the Music/Dance/Drama column on the first of the month, but I doubt that it is complete, and it is not something I'd want to read from end to end any more than I would want to read a random classified ads column.

Your point about the Music Academy is well made. I was on the mailing list for the South Bank Centre, back in London, and I think that their fully-detailed, well-presented schedule booklets (at a nominal charge) were sent out two months in advance. Their website, with a slick on-line booking system (Ahh, those front-row seats I used to get for Saswati Sen and Birju Maharaj, the first whisper I had of their trip

) is probably more in advance.

What we are talking about is professionalism. The rub is, of course, that professionalism costs money, and the Chennai audience is used to getting its music very cheap or even free.

Still, a lot of information could be put out without a great deal of flashiness and design work --- in fact, in many ways, I'd rather have a plain-text listing. I certainly do not want to open a Sabha website to be greeted by a Flash banner that takes five minutes to load, along with music that I can't turn off.

Musicians, too, have to take this whole public information thing on board. How many times, on a musician's site, does one click on "schedule" only to find that the last listed event was in 2004?

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 10 Oct 2009, 18:33

nick H wrote:Musicians, too, have to take this whole public information thing on board. How many times, on a musician's site, does one click on "schedule" only to find that the last listed event was in 2004?

How many musicians are reading this?

Probably those who are, will ask "how many among our audience look at our websites to come to our concerts?".

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Oct 2009, 19:52

Then why did they bother with a website in the first place?

It can be similar to the cry that I often hear on a travel site that I frequent: "I've sent e-mails to the hotel/agent/car company, but had no reply" where the e-mail address might have really been not much more than a decorative item! I think this happens markedly less now than just two or three years ago.

Many musicians must be aware that we look at Ram's listings, the Kutcheribuzz season listings, the new Rasikas calendar, and about the forums and file sharing that is a part of the world-wide carnatic music community. Many of them must be internet users too. Notwithstanding the separate issue that India's broadband reach to the poor is non-existent, its adoption by middle class continues to grow.

Of course, no-one has to have a website, or to publish their schedule on it, but if they do, it would be nice if they update it regularly.

Will it increase their audiences? It might: who doesn't google!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Oct 2009, 19:58

Artists' websites with outdated and wrong information ( sometimes the A.M. and P.M. are swapped ) give the feeling of an abandoned house. "The artist used to live here but not any more"..

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Oct 2009, 20:58

gn.sn,
Your post makes a lot of sense.
Letting rasikAs know well in advance and publishing the event clearly with details a few weeks, then days before the event and on the day of the concert is money well-spent on advertising (cutting out fancy invitations). If the organizers send E-mails on a regular basis (not sporadic) of the sabhas one is member of, if the artistes keep their websites up to date, if one gets into the habit of looking up Ram's (chennai) and Vijayan's (Bengaluru) listings (forumites in other cities should start this service too), if one looks up our own calendar on the forum (hope more organizers post here), things will look up. However, I am with Nick when it comes to opening any random E-mail about concerts from any unknown source. Of course, word of mouth from friends and acquaintances still works.
The main issue is the attitude of Chennai rasikAs--sorry to say this. We repeatedly talk about it: they are spoilt. Too many concerts to go to on a given day. Too many free performances which means they get annoyed when they have to spend money on tickets. Alll those who attend HM concerts are not rich by any means that they can afford to pay a higher price to get in! Still, halls get filled.
I see another hitch too. Nick would agree with me on this wholeheartedly. Speeches! VIP speakers may hinder the process of early publicizing. Let's say there are a handful of them, each one is so busy on a given day, one of them does not have a free day at all, and the organizers have to wait until the last minute to advertise the event after he says yes! Then comes the venue problem at a late hour! Add to it the lack of sense about publishing an event in an effective manner or just lack of consideration for the people who make up the audience.
How I wish the sponsors of the concerts specify that unless the public are informed well, and that too, well ahead of time of the event, the money won't be forthcoming! After all, they want as many people to notice their brand name in their effort to promote the arts!
Well, MA is supposed to lead the way in this, with all their prestige and press power! Along with me, there are hundreds of those who live abroad and look forward to the season and would like to go ahead and make travel and lodging arrangements before it's too late. Locals too, who would like to plan their holidays and get tickets(!) in advance for the concerts...

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 10 Oct 2009, 21:08

nick H, I appreciate your point about spam. I was referring to unsolicited information in the mail (paper brochures and so on) which are entirely legal in most places; but I think we both agree that even within an opt-in context there is much that can be done to inform the public about upcoming events.

saianamika · Post by **saianamika** » 10 Oct 2009, 21:50

I got a small book called the "Reckonner" by Mr. S. Kannan last year. That really helped me a lot. Does anybody know when this year's Reckonner will come out? I got it after I arrived in India by first week of December. Would be nice if I could get it earlier this year, now that I am already in India.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Oct 2009, 00:01

vasanthakokilam wrote:Artists' websites with outdated and wrong information ( sometimes the A.M. and P.M. are swapped ) give the feeling of an abandoned house. "The artist used to live here but not any more"..

Perfectly put. Spot on.

arasi wrote:The main issue is the attitude of Chennai rasikAs--sorry to say this. We repeatedly talk about it: they are spoilt. Too many concerts to go to on a given day.

For always? It has been remarked that, in this economic climate, sponsorship is not what it was. We have a summer period, of course, when nobody wants to go out anyway, and any artist that can wants a foreign tour if they can get one, but my sense is that the August-September-October daily listings in The Hindu have remained rather short. I'm sure there's a statistician out there who can confirm or deny this?

Too many free performances which means they get annoyed when they have to spend money on tickets.

Guilty!

I see another hitch too. Nick would agree with me on this wholeheartedly. Speeches!

Speaches are always a hitch

. But seriously, although it would seem logical to announce the forthcoming program, probably people don't remember anyway. Some places do have a sheet available with the month's concerts listed; this is good.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Oct 2009, 02:13

Bangalore is a mixed bag, I think. To members, they do send out programs regularly on a monthly basis-what is good about them is that they list forthcoming concerts for the next few months which means you are reminded of those upcoming oncerts on a regular basis. Non-members, casual attendees from another parts of the city have to still rely on word of mouth and the newspapaers which do not do a good job. Let's take our GBL. The concert make take place miles away for him. If he knows of a concert he would like to listen to, AND knows about it well ahead of time, he would try to combine it with a visit to a friend or relative who lives in the area.
Again, if each sabha has a simple (even computer-generated) announcement of all concerts which are finalized, and keep them at the door, they can hope for more attendance. Committee members and even some old faithful members can spread the word on a regular basis to potential attendees whom they know. The sabhas don't have to spend money on postage. They have to give more than one number to call, and make sure those phones are answered! Where possible, recorded messages can give venue, vicinity, date and time of the concert. Local temple can be asked if they will display the schedule. Popular CM friendly eateries too! Colleges and schools which teach music. The (usually!) older committee members can seek the help of CM loving young people who frequent concerts. Counting the number of helmets I find on the jamakkALam where the young sit, I am pretty sure there are enough of them to do the job. There are many music teachers in town too, and sending the print-out to them may inform more young listeners and their parents.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 11 Oct 2009, 02:22

As a person involved sponsoring at least THREE events in DEC-JAN in Chennsai I consider VERY IMPORTANT it would be great if I can have some feed back on them: I feel the ONE HOUR preceding the mandatory concert will be speeches & expert panel discussions about the person - in my case it is S.Ramanathan, Vellore Ramabhadran, & MMI is MORE IMPORTANT in many ways. When I PUBLICISE it shd. I EXPLICITLY state when the "Speechyfying" part will happen & when the concert will actually start? VKV

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Oct 2009, 08:14

So kind of you to consider the audience, VKV! Isn't it hard to know the exact time frames for speech? Considering that you are honoring VR and the speeches are going to be about MMI and SR too, how can I say, we do not want to hear about them? Short speeches about them will be wothwhile. On the other hand, about the dog they had, the year and date when the speaker waited in the station with some ther vidvAn for a train, how the stationmaster was a cousin thrice removed and the cucumbers they used to sell at that station--can all be reserved for after-concert chat or over a cup of tea as your expression goes. Since I do not know who the speakers are, I am free to say all this now

Seriously, it's going to be a great evening. Hoping to be there if I can manage to reach Chennai that early.

hemavathy · Post by **hemavathy** » 11 Oct 2009, 13:43

very true Ramakriya. i fully agree with ur view that Artists of KERALA dont get much oppurtunities outside their State . when we watch & listen to many artists in Amrutha channel it is surprising to see that KERALA posses so many good artists with so much of potential .it is a pity that they are not recognised so much .

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 11 Oct 2009, 13:45

About website updates by artists:
------------------------------------------
If you look at all the websites it is typically done by few noted webmasters who only create html pages in the link concert schedules. Since all are static html pages and possibly without access to the site , each of the artists are not able to update on real time. Some good news I just saw right now google calendar is integrated in the link of schedules for 2 artists websites. I did see atleast 2 artists one who has updated and the other who will update soon as google empty calendar is set up.
"Things are improving...

hemavathy · Post by **hemavathy** » 11 Oct 2009, 13:49

talking about audience in different places , last week for Malladi Brothers concert in BRR sabha In Anushkthinagar Bombay ,people turn up around 7 pm for a programme which is supposed to start at 6 pm .at the first instance how will the artists feel when they see an empty hall like this ? moreover it is not a concert by any artist whose name is hardly known to people .peronally i feel people should respect Music ,which is DIVINE & also the Artists .

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Oct 2009, 16:11

vkv... your query probably deserves a thread of its own (it would be drowned out by the kaa kaa-ing in the latest speeches thread

).

You are, primarily, organising functions, rather than concerts. It would be kind of you to advertise the expected start time of the music concert, for those that do not want to attend the function, but it does give you the headache of making sure your participants stick to it!

hemavathy... only the other day, in a concert hall, I was contemplating a new technical definition of "varnum", along the lines that it is the part of the concert in which people enter and find seats, and the VIPs exchange namascarams with the artists. However, the adage that, in pointing one finger at others, one points three at oneself, applies: I am often a late arriver.