Violin Techniques

[laks1972]

The violinist, TR Vijaykumar, is a sishya of LGJ, though his technique with an even, strong bow (as opposed to the LGJ school which seems to emphasise modulation of bowing strength to closely mimic the vallinam and mellinam of vocal music), and his handling of brighas all seemed to suggest his style was an amalgam of several others, and most closely allied with that of Ganesh-Kumaresh.

Indeed, I recently listened to Ganesh-Kumaresh, and their style is indeed very LGJ-like, except the bowing, which is strong (and uniform).

Ganesh&Kumaresh have superior control over instrument and techniques as compared to LGJ. So it is not just the strong bowing. If we compare speed phrases of plain notes of Ganesh-Kumaresh with LGJ , we can see that even at high speed, every note will be heard clearly and accurately by Ganesh-Kumaresh. Only 3 violinsts/schools have this quality- Dr LS (and his brothers), MSG (and his family), Ganesh Kumaresh.

With others, there is compromise in clarity when they get stretched due to higher speed.

Also, the above 3 schools/violinists have mastered thaara sthaayi (3rd octave) playing in violin which is not LGJ school's cup of tea.

No offense meant. I am a fan of Sri LGJ . Just to highlight that it is not just strong bowing which is a differentiator. The reason one gets a superficial feeling that Ganesh-Kumaresh play like LGJ is because of the type of Gamakams that they use and the modulation which resemble LGJ.

[bala747]

Ganesh&Kumaresh have superior control over instrument and techniques as compared to LGJ. So it is not just the strong bowing. If we compare speed phrases of plain notes of Ganesh-Kumaresh with LGJ , we can see that even at high speed, every note will be heard clearly and accurately by Ganesh-Kumaresh. Only 3 violinsts/schools have this quality- Dr LS (and his brothers), MSG (and his family), Ganesh Kumaresh.

With others, there is compromise in clarity when they get stretched due to higher speed.

Also, the above 3 schools/violinists have mastered thaara sthaayi (3rd octave) playing in violin which is not LGJ school's cup of tea.

No offense meant. I am a fan of Sri LGJ . Just to highlight that it is not just strong bowing which is a differentiator. The reason one gets a superficial feeling that Ganesh-Kumaresh play like LGJ is because of the type of Gamakams that they use and the modulation which resemble LGJ.

I disagree, because if you actually heard 50's and 60's LGJ his control was spectacular. Over time, old age took its toll which resulted in the loss of control. Also IIRC he dveloped some problem with his hands which resulted in not being able to play properly in the later years.

Ganesh and Kumaresh play so "fluently" because of the extreme low sruthi of their violins (1 1/2), which makes the strings a lot less tense, and hence affords better control but sounds like someone's blowing the horn. Very unpleasant to hear, especially the electric violin.

Artistes like G-K, LS and to a less extent MSG may be able play "more notes per second" but that is an ability that can be trained and is the least important aspect of music. Could Lalgudi have played that fast had he "trained" hard enough? Certainly. Did he have to? Of course not. His focus was on amazing manodharmam and unparalleled bhavam, which G K and LS sorely lack and will probably never develop. Give me a chaste rendition of Tera tiyaga rada! in Gowlipanthu of LGJ any day over hearing a cat being dragged over a cheese-grater sound that LS and GK seem to be fond of creating every now and then. MSG when accompanying can be a treat to hear but solo concerts can be rather hit and miss, depending on his mood that day.

In western classical violin every new upstart claims to play faster than Jascha HEifetz but there is a reason why they will never become that great and there is only one Heifetz. Speed is probably the least important of the many skills it takes to become a great violinists, which is why I can never take LS and his 40 kalam varnams and other gimmickry seriously. Contortionists belong in the circus, not the Olympic stadium.

[laks1972]

Unfortunately bala747 has converted this discussion into "who is a better violonist" argument, instead of styles/techniques comparison. So I do not intend to respond to his remarks, though I disagree with his points

[bala747]

Unfortunately bala747 has converted this discussion into "who is a better violonist" argument, instead of styles/techniques comparison.

Have I? Or have you?

You said:
1> Ganesh&Kumaresh have superior control over instrument and techniques as compared to LGJ. So it is not just the strong bowing. (And this is not saying that GK are better than LGJ how?)
2> If we compare speed phrases of plain notes of Ganesh-Kumaresh with LGJ , we can see that even at high speed, every note will be heard clearly and accurately by Ganesh-Kumaresh. (implying you can't for LGJ, a ludicrous suggestion, just because LGJ eschews gimmickry in concerts doesn't mean he can't)
3> Only 3 violinsts/schools have this quality- Dr LS (and his brothers), MSG (and his family), Ganesh Kumaresh. (Nonsense)
4> Also, the above 3 schools/violinists have mastered thaara sthaayi (3rd octave) playing in violin which is not LGJ school's cup of tea (no, but his cup of Horlicks. You seriously are claiming that one of the greatest violinists of Indian classical music has not 'mastered thaara sthaayi'? How much of LGJ's music have you even heard?)

I am going to be charitable and presume you have not heard LGJ much, because the alternative is highly unflattering.

So I do not intend to respond to his remarks, though I disagree with his points

Suit yourself buddy.

[visaalam]

Ganesh and Kumaresh play so "fluently" because of the extreme low sruthi of their violins (1 1/2), which makes the strings a lot less tense, and hence affords better control but sounds like someone's blowing the horn. Very unpleasant to hear, especially the electric violin.

Someone with a bit of knowledge in string instruments will know that less sruthi won't give better clarity of notes, on the contratry less tension on the string will only reduce clarity of the notes. So if GK are getting that clarity with less sruthi (less tension of string) it is even more commendable.

The benefit of low sruthi is that strings are "easy/soft" on your finger and wont dig a crevice in your finger. Another benefit is that apasvarams are less pronounced in lower sruthis. Anyway that is a different matter and does not help you on "clarity of notes" aspect.

Artistes like G-K, LS and to a less extent MSG may be able play "more notes per second" but that is an ability that can be trained and is the least important aspect of music.

It is a very important aspect of music. People who know a bit about brugas will know that to get clarity in brugas, the important factor is "notes per second"

Could Lalgudi have played that fast had he "trained" hard enough? Certainly. Did he have to? Of course not. His focus was on amazing manodharmam and unparalleled bhavam, which G K and LS sorely lack and will probably never develop.

Listen to "Live from Geneva" jugalbandi album and then talk about bavam or lack of it in LS.

Speed is probably the least important of the many skills it takes to become a great violinists,

You are entitled to your opinion, though it lacks basics.

[bala747]

Someone with a bit of knowledge in string instruments will know that less sruthi won't give better clarity of notes, on the contratry less tension on the string will only reduce clarity of the notes.

Little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and a 'bit of knowledge' even more so. And by the way, I never claimed they are more clear. I referred to their 'fluency'. I had already said it sounds horrible. I guess you either read what you want to read or there's another problem. As you yourself pointed out next line tight strings cut into your fingers. There's a reason Indian violins are tuned lower than western (apart from the notes the sruthi is considerably lower), to facilitate gamaka playing and all that. In short, it's easier to play 50 notes per second for a sustained period at 1 kattai than at 6. For someone who knows "a bit" about stringed instruments you seem ignorant of this fact. I have more to say and if you want to discuss this take it to another thread where I will be glad to respond when I can be bothered to.

Second, you say:

It is a very important aspect of music. People who know a bit about brugas will know that to get clarity in brugas, the important factor is "notes per second"

I can't believe you said that, simply because it shows you either cannot comprehend what I have written or you just want to argue for the sake of it. Fine. Yes for brughas you need more "notes per second", but if you are assessing musical greatness based on "notes per second" then you're either too bored with a stop watch or that you think speed of brughas are more important than sruthi suddham, exploiting of a raga's rasa or layagnanam, which was what I was refuting earlier. Tell that to MDR, KVN, Brinda/Mukta etc! Brugha singing is good but the most important aspect of music is bhavam (bhava raga tala), of which brugha is simply a small component amongst many others. Please don't let me coach you on this stuff. You obviously missed my point completely as I was pointing out that LGJ could produce any gimmicky sounds that the others could but his focus was on producing bhava laden music and you missed that completely and simply decided to read what you like into what I actually said. Have you heard LGJ accompanying artistes like Somu or Mali? Hell he makes Mali sound decent (during Mali's 'off days' I mean)! Have you heard the intricate swara patterns found in his thillanas? It is not that he couldn't! Sheesh, I can't believe it's actually come to me having to claim that LGJ has as good a "technique" (whatever that means) as Ganesh Kumaresh! What next?

Listen to "Live from Geneva" jugalbandi album and then talk about bavam or lack of it in LS.

Oh really? LS plays with more bhaavam than LGJ? This is news to me indeed! I wonder why he can't play like that in India then. I have heard enough LS to form an opinion of him, and if I want to hear weird mishmashes of ragas played like a rockstar on steroids I would ask you for recommendations. Thanks for the listening tip, but no thanks. Just because you said it, I'll make it a point to not listen to it.

You are entitled to your opinion, though it lacks basics.

My opinions lack basics?! Sure. I would like to tell you what your 'opinions' lack but I don't think you'll appreciate it.

[bilahari]

While I agree with bala that the content is the most important factor in music, I think technique or mastery over the instrument is quite important as well in effectively and aesthetically communicating the idea. Lacking either one would be detrimental to a vidwan's music. The same applies to vocalists--some great vidwans have a lot of vidwath but don't have a pleasing voice or they struggle with shruti, and it is definitely more difficult for me to appreciate their vidwath or the substance of their music. This is just my opinion.

As far as possible, let us not compare specific artistes on this forum. Such comparison, however well-intended, never seems to end well and almost invariably spirals into personal attacks and mudslinging as it has on this occasion. Thanks to the moderators for stepping in.

[coolkarni]

...

[bala747]

All I have to say is, paraphrasing Sagan, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Saying that some violinist today has "better technique" than a great master is such an extraordinary claim. If some fellow here suddenly mentioned that Nityasree "has better technique" than MS Subbulakshmi based on his or her own arbitrarily constructed parameters, then I am sure forumites would be baying for his/her blood, and rightly so. That is all I did. Thank you.

[srikant1987]

Saying that some violinist today has "better technique" than a great master is such an extraordinary claim.

How about listening to what LGJ had to say?

By terming your style unique, are you not denigrating the other who were on the scene much before you?

LGJ: No mentioning my achievements or contributions does not amount to running down others. How can I decry their achievements when it is precisely those which form the basis of my growth? The laid the foundation and erected the ground floor. I built another floor upon that solid construction. Once a Singapore rasika asked me: "You play so well. What about your father?" I thought the question absurd. Each generation has to carry on, building on what has been constructed by the earlier one. Among past masters, I was stunned by Chowdiah and Dwaram. In regard to the future, I expect a greater development of the violin from the youngsters of today. To say the best belonged to the past is a sure road to degeneration.

[visaalam]

I think technique or mastery over the instrument is quite important as well in effectively and aesthetically communicating the idea. Lacking either one would be detrimental to a vidwan's music.

Well said bilahari. Be it vocal or instrument or cricket, technique and mastery are very important.

To appreciate S.Balachandar techniques and the difficulties in handling the instrument, one should have learnt to play veena atleast to some level. Same goes with appreciating Mali's flute or MSG's / Dr LS's violin . I am telling this purely from technique point of view. Technique is not a substitute for bhava , nor vice versa.

G & K defintely have very good techiniques. Arm chair commentrators can easily shoo it off. Ask any violonist or advanced student of violin, and they will give testimony.

Techniques are like camphor. Certain animals cant appreciate camphor.

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do"

[bilahari]

That quote from LGJ says it all, Srikant. Thank you.

[visaalam]

Srikant , that is a lovely quote from the master.

The part "In regard to the future, I expect a greater development of the violin from the youngsters of today. To say the best belonged to the past is a sure road to degeneration." is a wakeup call to those who still live in past.

[Lakshman]

Before this develops into a full blown argument, let cooler heads prevail. Thanks.

[i_srinivasan]

When gilts were once described (by somebody) as AAA graded and junk as C they have been renamed (by the same somebody) to AAAAAA* and A* respectively. I guess this reflects the very real progress made in recent years and be cheerful!

[srkris]

Oh really? LS plays with more bhaavam than LGJ? This is news to me indeed! I wonder why he can't play like that in India then.

It may be news to you, but yes LS is capable of matching LGJ in bhAva and has given highly commendable performances in India in the past that may not exactly match his current style of playing.

LGJ is however a household name, and he is a CM legend in his own right, which can't be said of LS since he has not been a mainstream CM performer after the 1970s.

Everyone has an opinion on everything regardless of its validity, and merely that you "listened enough to him to arrive at your current opinion on him" does not prove anything to anyone.

Let's tone down the acidity please, in your own interest.

Regardless of the intrinsic merit of the claims that form part of an argument, just because someone compared my favourite musicians unfavourably to those I dont like at all, wouldn't mean I need to jump up and down, if I had some maturity.

Techniques are like camphor. Certain animals cant appreciate camphor.

That was uncalled for and offensive.

Now I understand why some of my posts disappear without information to me , or on the thread.
And I am not amused .

I am sorry, I will be more careful henceforth to leave reasons if I remove posts. Since yours was in reply to an earlier post, I thought it best to remove your reply with the original.

[coolkarni]

..

[visaalam]

I suggest the thread is locked so that no more messages are posted.

Your apology does not cut ice with me . You are indeed taking the posts of various members for granted .

Cool-ji is becoming hot-ji

Let us chant "Cool-ji you are always correct" and cool him down.

[cienu]

Let us chant "Cool-ji you are always correct" and cool him down.

I think that is a very unfair statement to make on Coolji. I did see his post before the axe fell.

The points he raised were legitimate. In my opinion, this thread, though hot, need not have come under the Mod's censor and would have died a natural death after a few more posts.

However as they say the Mod's decision is final.

[coolkapali]

I guess the mods may want to make amends with coolji, as he has all the reasons to feel like this. At the same time, i request coolji to forget and forgive, especially since the mods are doing a great job in general and also becos, Srikris has personally apologised in an earlier post in this thread.

[srikant1987]

Yes, I agree with Coolji that there are still some offending posts, which are the root of the problem. I don't know what he wrote, but in any case if that's removed, so should the other offensive posts.

It began with laks1972 talking of "superior technique and control over the instrument". The catchword is "superior". It would have been perfectly OK if s/he only said that their (GK's) technique differs (from LGJ's) in more than just the strength of bowing.

It is understandable for bala747 to get so offended, but s/he should have avoided harsh words too.
===
As for LGJ's upper octaves, I must suggest laks1972 to listen to his nattaikurinji RTP ... just the behag swarams will do (Sathej knows about this). He plays tishra nadai swarams there grazing through about 3.5 or 4 octaves.

[arivucchudar]

Im here only to share my views that will contribute in a positive way. LG's pure, natural and divine tone, sans any transducer or contact mike, and the lightening speed brighas, with superb technique (that was totally evolved by him ) of traversing athitara sthayi ( in a kalyani that i have heard ) without ever losing the bhavam is truly unsurpassed. To put it very subtely, this discussion seems to be comparing one of the Nokia model with Abraham Graham Bell's invention.

[arivucchudar]

Techniques are like camphor. Certain animals cant appreciate camphor.

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do"

Why use such indecent words, if you believe that you have a point to make with some conviction?

[laks1972]

It began with laks1972 talking of "superior technique and control over the instrument". The catchword is "superior". It would have been perfectly OK if s/he only said that their (GK's) technique differs (from LGJ's) in more than just the strength of bowing.

Agreed, point taken, apologies. LGJ is dear to me too.

......bala747 ........ should have avoided harsh words too.

Very much true

As for LGJ's upper octaves, I must suggest laks1972 to listen to his nattaikurinji RTP ... just the behag swarams will do (Sathej knows about this). He plays tishra nadai swarams there grazing through about 3.5 or 4 octaves.

Sure will do, quite open to change my opinion. Thanks very much

Hope with this , we can end this controversy and close the thread.

[bilahari]

Laks1972, maybe you could edit your original post suitably.
Visaalam, the references to camphor, etc, too.

Let us not close this thread but steer it back toward the original thread about NSG.
Read Rajesh's review of a 2006 NSG concert here, where he sang the same pUrvi thillana. I echo his sentiments:
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... 62006.html

Arasi's question of why NSG, with such a popular TV program, attracts comparatively less audience, intrigues me. Any [constructive] thoughts?

[laks1972]

I am happy to edit my post, but since subsequent posts refer to my original wordings, they won't make sense unless subsequent posts are deleted. I will go by mod's suggestion on this

Back to NSG and your query, NSG's style that attracts people like me but not to some others. His style is more bhava oriented and it is not flashy. So it may sound sedative to some . In this era of T20, those who look for some "electrifying" performance will find NSG's concert not to their liking.

This I find by talking to a cross section of people who attend concerts regularly

To me NSG is MDR of today. He may not have great shaareeram. But his renderings touch the heart. It is soaked with bhakthi and bhavam . He enjoys his own renderings, so it reaches the audience too.

Another thing is that NSG sticks to tradition. So people who want some "innovation" may not find.

[vasanthakokilam]

Let me put down a few pieces of information about the background of this 'furore' . I am making an effort to write this as straight as possible. Any impression that I am offending or defending someone is purely a side effect.

-------

1. There was a post by Laks which were perceived as personal attacks against bala747.
2. One of the participants here complained to the admin to remove that post since it sounded like a personal attack. Bala himself may not have taken it that way but the discussion would have turned personal at that point. Of course, Bala is not fully without blame, since his response to other posts in this thread was a bit 'in your face' with a tone of ridicule.
3. Before anything was done, Cool had responded with great content to that post
4. The admin made a judgment call on moving the original post by Laks. Unfortunately Cool's post, since it referred to the original post, would not have had the context if it remained by itself. So it became a sacrificial lamb
5. Now it IS a judgment call. The admin could have edited Cool's post so it stood by itself etc...that would have been my personal preference. But not doing that should not be construed as some conspiracy but just an action that was taken for which there are better alternatives but not taken.

-------

Now on to my own personal opinion, every one cool it, please. Before any of you request the admin/mod to "delete a post", "close a thread",..whatever, or decide to go off in a huff, take a deep breath. Give the benefit of doubt to mis-impressions due to lack of information. So seek out more information from the members or with the admin either publicly or through email . Apply this guideline and read the whole thread after a few days, you will know what I am getting at. And, a specific request to members who get ticked off at another member's opinion.
Do not adopt a tone of 'ridicule', but just respond to the content.

[cmlover]

bala
How did the 3hr chat with future f-i-l go? Are the wedding bells in the offing?
Do respond to me by email since this thread is devoted to NSG and non-CM chats should be at the Lounge

[rajaglan]

Hi,

At some point I used to like Kunnakudi's albums until I heard Naa Jeevadhara (main) from LGJ.
Then I settled on mostly LGJ albums and no kunnakudi.

Later once I herad and bought Dr LS album and it sounded great but I couldnot enjoy the second time.
The album was gimicks of a violinists and no raga bhavam.
Then Lalgudi's thillanas answered the speed issue and I kept buying only LGJ.

Ganesh Kumaresh, I never bought... lessons learnt. I only listen to
their alapana. Their swara which many likes is not to my liking.

I feel that LGJ is the greatest ever accompanist and solo player in CM.

Chowdaiah , I have not heard much but whatever I heard he sounded great. The only problem
is that he plays more time for alapana and swarams than the main artist which is very irritating
especially when you want to sit down and listen to GNB and you end up listening violin more.

[laks1972]

I feel that LGJ is the greatest ever accompanist and solo player in CM.

Since you have not mentioned about MSG, I suggest you listen to MSG and you fill find that you can never decide whether MSG is better or LGJ is better

[rajaglan]

I like MSG as accompanyist not as a solo player. I have his solo albums too but one or two only. He has a style.
I like TNK and his paani also but as accompanyist only.

[sureshvv]

Since you have not mentioned about MSG, I suggest you listen to MSG and you fill find that you can never decide whether MSG is better or LGJ is better

Yes... Such contests are futile! Even if you could decide, that would say more about you at that moment than the artistes.

[rajaglan]

What I mentioned is my opinion. And I donot have any objection if someone feels good listening to higher skill level. I had the similar argument
about Kunnakudi and Lalgudi in 1980s with my friend when I shifted to Lalgudi and it was never ending and no use.

[bilahari]

Yes, I know some people who think Kunnakudi was a far greater violinist than any of the people we might consider great. To each his own...

[rajaglan]

I think to benchmark violinists on their skill, there has to be a different platform and need not be CM based.
In hardware CPU benchmarking, people run a set of algorithms to highlight which is the best CPU. And one should
not implement that algorithm in hardware. And I think
all the CM violin vidwans that we discussed excel in their skill and the competition comes only to find who is
best of all in 'skill'...

[laks1972]

That is a very good angle rajaglan.

There are 2 things which are used in corporate world to measure people technically- skills, competence.

While competence can be subjective , skills will be always measurable.

In the case of violin, the skills can be capability to play maximum number of swaras per bow, number of swaras per second, number of split per bow (for thanams) - some quantitative measurable criteria

competence will always be based on perception, there cant be no clear winner on this

[rshankar]

Can we please put an end to this rather fruitless discussion in this topic? MODS/ADMIN - can you take out all the posts not connected to the original post and start a separate thread on violin techniques?

[cmlover]

Shankar's suggestion is quite valid!
Kindly carry on your discussion on violin techniques in a separate thread...