The importance of resonance

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 13 Aug 2009, 23:08

I have always liked resonance in carnatic music - whether it be voice, violin or mridangam. The tone and depth of the resonance directly translates to sunAda for me, which I consider to be important for the "art" (or lakshya) side of carnatic music. Of course this is not to discount sruti but to complement it.

Any thoughts?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 13 Aug 2009, 23:29

YOU are absolutely CORRECT. Not just in music but RESONANCE is fundamental to any physical process- may be for even mental tho' not proven yet-& most fundamental theories have depended on it! The subject is very deep & most fascinating! VKV

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 13 Aug 2009, 23:37

VKV sir, it is not necessary to quote the entire message particularly if it is just above your reply.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Aug 2009, 01:13

Is it not resonance, with its combination of harmonics, that makes a flute sound different to a violin, or even, one person's voice sound different to another?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Aug 2009, 01:21

There are three things in waveforms: Frequency, Amplitude and Phase. What I understand about resonance is more in the context of 'phase'. When two wave forms are in phase, they add (substract) to the amplitude. When multiple frequencies combine together, then we are talking about harmonics.

Which leads me to ask vkv sir to offer the fundamentals on resonance, its applicability in music making and relationship to harmonics and possibly the equivalent concepts in other fields you mention ( just to round out the picture ). Bridges can actually collapse if another wave form compatible with its normal fundamental frequency reinforces it by getting 'in phase' with it thereby increasing the amplitude of its natural oscillation.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 15 Aug 2009, 02:59

Dear V,
Your observations are right on. What nick H observes has to do with "Timbre" not Resonance.Resonance it turns out is VERY FUNDAMENTAL to practically any area of Physics. All the ideas can be understood by observing the waves created by throwing two stones on the water in a clear lake. When the phases are right as you have pointed out amplitudes add up & in terms of sound volume increases. The difference comes when the two frequencies are close enough then there is an energy exchange & the transfer of energy results in amplitude increase as well the two frequencies become equal. This is exactly what happens when the tambhura & voice ferquencies are the same. There is an increase of both volume & purity of the note itself; This can be observed in the case of MSS & MMI in terms of carnatic music and the perfection of the sruthi- frequecy match- results in unbelievable sound for the listener. Actually both Harikesa nallur m.b. & mss had practised with four thamburas. MMI also followed his teachers perfectly. The effect can be demonstrated with what is called a sonometer & in terms of today's music both the amplification system as well as the performers do not reach this level of perfection reg the merging of the notes between voice& thumbura in my opinion....VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Aug 2009, 03:29

I think harmonics has a lot to do with timbre, and resonance is part of that --- but I was never any good at physics, and it's past my bed time...

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 15 Aug 2009, 04:03

Generally unless one specifically wants to produce a pure tone of a specific frequency all sounds produced by instruments or human voice automatically have sub harmonics well as harmonics & in this sense it has to with timbre. Resonance clearly means& implies energy transfer & the mechanism is effective in sound only when two frequencies are adjacent to each other like thambura & voice. As a matter of fact apart from scale considerations the tuning helps this a lot...VKV

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Aug 2009, 04:15

Just adding a tidbit in this context.

You all probably heard Les Paul, innovator and musician, passed away yesterday at the age of 94. He is a hero to all tinkerers! He invented the solid body electric guitar among other things ( multi track recording etc. ). In one of the interviews, he said that he tinkered with the design for the solid body guitar for 10 years to do just this "What I wanted was to amplify pure string vibration, without the resonance of the wood getting involved in the sound,".

I am wondering if the jivari threads in tampuras are meant for the same purposes. To provide for as pure a string vibration as possible by dampening the mutual transfer of energy between the wood and the strings. Just throwing this out there, not sure if they are related.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 15 Aug 2009, 04:46

vasanthakokilam, I think resonance is essential in acoustic instruments*. This Wikipedia article on jivari might be of interest.

*Edit: I meant acoustic string instruments.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 15 Aug 2009, 19:44

vasanthakokilam wrote:I am wondering if the jivari threads in tampuras are meant for the same purposes. To provide for as pure a string vibration as possible by dampening the mutual transfer of energy between the wood and the strings. Just throwing this out there, not sure if they are related.

vk,
Very quickly, quite the opposite! The jivari actually adds a level of "impurity" to the sound, if you will. So the level and quality of the "impurity" is the key...it depends on a) the nature of the bridge (proper width, proper curvature, etc..) b) the quality/thickness of the thread c) the talent of the tampura tuner or jivari adjuster. Also, the transfer of the energy at the nodes is hardly attenuated by the addition of the jivari.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Aug 2009, 19:56

I think I've got the basic point now of resonance --- the school-lab experiment is to hold a vibrating tuning fork near one of the same frequency which has not been struck, but which will now start to vibrate. It is what makes sympathetic strings sound even though they are not touched directly.

The tampura string is plucked "down" relative to the instrument, so that it vibrates up and down relative to the body, rather than parallel to it like a guitar or veena string. By holding the string off the bridge slightly, the jivari is causing the string to collide with the bridge on each downward motion, making the sound produced much more complex.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 15 Aug 2009, 22:01

nick H,
You are right about the complexity of the sound from the Thambura but still the major component is the energy from a particular basic note like "Sa" that passing thru' air & the musician's sound that interact to provide what at least in physics is called Resonance. Actually Halls like Royal Albert Hall's accoustics design has to take into account these factors. Actually Yamaha determined that there are 54 parameters that need to be adjusted for the sound to be perfectly reproduced. May be we meet in Chennai this winter & talk more on this. This discussion may be boring to othere here. VKV

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Aug 2009, 23:32

Thanks Uday. When I threw that out there, I was thinking if this is going to catch Uday's attention so he can set me straight!

Related to what Les Paul said, in an acoustic hollow body instrument ( non amplified ), does the natural frequency of the wooden body, produced due to the transfer of energy from the string vibrations to the wood, affect the total sound produced in any significant way?

vkv, we can discuss it here, no problem. Those who find it boring will ignore the topic.

srkris, When you said 'resonance' in the first post, did you mean it a non-technical sense, like, say, the voice of Chembai ?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Aug 2009, 00:10

vkv... I am probably the least technical, and the least numerate here; I'm sure others will appreciate your technical points, and understand them better than I.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 16 Aug 2009, 11:19

vasanthakokilam wrote:srkris, When you said 'resonance' in the first post, did you mean it a non-technical sense, like, say, the voice of Chembai ?

Of course I am far from any technical discussion, which mostly goes over my head.

I was talking only about resonance and its relation with tone (say of the violin, voice etc).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Aug 2009, 15:00

You will have to further explain then what you mean by resonance in the non-technical sense. There are many dictionary meanings and the only non-technical one that seems to apply is "A quality of richness or variety". May be you can provide some example of vocalists or violinists you are thinking of.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Aug 2009, 15:22

There is an experience that I have when playing morsing. Morsing sound is, I think, particularly rich in harmonics. Jews Harp players, in some cultures, play melody on their instruments, despite them having a spring which, like ours, is tuned to one note.

Anyway, I notice that there are times that the monotone morsing seems to follow the melody line of the other instruments, and that this is particularly so when playing with veena.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 16 Aug 2009, 18:35

Some idle googling on resonance and veena turned up this review of hi-end speakers named Grand Veena, costing US$7995 a pair, ostensibly inspired by the sarasvati veena.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/ultraa ... _veena.htm

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Aug 2009, 19:38

Well, about the only good thing I can think of in loosing one's hearing range is that ridiculously expensive speakers with huge frequency ranges drop off the if-only-I-could-afford-it list.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 16 Aug 2009, 22:14

Nick, one can seek consolation in the fact that some of this equipment makes more sense for a market of bats and dogs than humans

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Aug 2009, 22:38

vainika

. I have a friend who has a pair of $12000 panel style speakers. I will use this line on him

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Aug 2009, 22:44

Still, I do rather like the frequencies that I can still hear to be delivered as cleanly as possible!