Pallavis in Concerts

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 30 Jul 2009, 09:00

The pallavi is addressed to Lord Ekamreshwara of Kanchi. It implies that 'This is the right time [idu nalla samayam] for the mango tree under which you sit [mA maram], the shade it provides [nizhal] and the songbirds perching on it [kuyil] to worship you [unnai tozhuva]'.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 30 Jul 2009, 09:05

Thanks Prashant

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 30 Jul 2009, 11:34

Is 'unnai tozhuva' a colloquial form of 'unnai tozha'? 'tozha' and not 'tozhuva' sounds like the right word, in my limited knowledge.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Jul 2009, 20:06

I remember it as 'unnait tudikka idu samayam'.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 30 Jul 2009, 20:20

Thank you, Prashant, for the explanation. May I asume then that mango tree is the "sthala vrksha" of kachi ekAmbareswara?

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 30 Jul 2009, 22:30

Arasi: I think you have mistaken this pallavi for "unnai thuthikka aruL thA' of Sivan in kunthalavarALi.
I listened to DKJ and he sings as unnai tozhuva idu samayam.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Jul 2009, 22:42

Well, unnait tozha, unnait tozhudiDa make sense. toZhuva? tozhudal is the root, not tozhuvudal.
Prashant,
Could you kindly check with Vijay Siva? He should know, and he knows his tamizh!

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 31 Jul 2009, 08:19

Well arasi, it is 'tozhuva'. I don't know about the grammar but here is a recording:
http://sangeethamshare.org/kl/13-DKJ-VVS-UKS/
[Item 08(b)]

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Jul 2009, 09:08

Thanks, but I'm not able to download it.
unnait tozhavE idu samayam is possible (meaning tozhuvadaRkE-for one to worship)
So it is unnat tozhavE idu samayam, I think. tozhuva is how it is heard by some I suppose and it does not gel well!
Will try again to play it.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 31 Jul 2009, 09:16

It is most definitely unnai tozhuva as per DKJ Sir's recording and a check of the meaning with Sri Vijay Siva...

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 31 Jul 2009, 10:52

sridhar_rang and arasi are right; it should be tozha, not tozhuva.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 31 Jul 2009, 14:50

Probably the extra syllable was added , or it was purposefully pronounced like that to fit the thAlam??

Arvind..

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 31 Jul 2009, 15:26

semmu86 wrote:or it was purposefully pronounced like that to fit the thAlam??

Arvind..

I think you may be right, Arvind. Tried singing it as 'unnai tozha' and the punch of the pallavi diminishes.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 31 Jul 2009, 19:21

prashant wrote:
semmu86 wrote:or it was purposefully pronounced like that to fit the thAlam??

Arvind..
I think you may be right, Arvind. Tried singing it as 'unnai tozha' and the punch of the pallavi diminishes.

should be that only prashant.. cos i also tried singing ( with all doors closed

) that pallavi before writing that post and it just didnt fit the thAlam.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Jul 2009, 19:47

The online tamil lexicon lists only tozhuvu/tozhugai (worshipping, adoration), You have related words as tozhuvan (artisan), tozhukulam etc. All related words seem to start with tozhu... I also see no words that start with tozha.. in the entire lexicon.

Not sure if it is 100% corroboration, but at the least, it looks like tozhuva could be valid tamizh - although it does strike as a bit odd - maybe because we havent heard it much? For example, tazhuvu (embracing) can become tazhuva (to embrace). Why cant tozhuvu become tozhuva

? I feel we are parsing too much here.

Arun

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 31 Jul 2009, 22:20

Arun,
we have the words 'thazhuva, thazhuvudal' etc; but as far as thozhugai is concerned it is 'thozha and thozhudal'; at least that is what I have heard.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Jul 2009, 22:54

punarvasu - tozhuvu certainly exists as per the online lexicon.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... 2.tamillex

Arun

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 31 Jul 2009, 23:08

I'd call it a musically justified fudge.

If tozhuva is simply a non-standard use, I'd have no problem with it; but it just doesn't appear to be used at all, except in this pallavi. If you can find me examples of actual use, I'll be glad to change my mind.

arunk's tortured justification is like saying the word *hitten is correct because bitten exists.

Edit:
What do you know: hitten is listed in the OED as a Scottish dialect variant of the past participle, along with hittin, hutten, and hot. Doesn't change my larger point, but thought I'd mention it.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Jul 2009, 23:24

tozhavE can be fitted in, if tozhuva can, but if you experts say it can't, I would say you know best. Unnait 'tozha' on the other hand can definitely fit in!
And to think I started all this! Now I wonder if the original WAS unnait tudikka, though the 'nizhal' bit makes me think tozha would have been the word.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Jul 2009, 23:28

gn.sn,
Yes, fudging comes 'after', as the words are handled by the singers! The original word itself 'fudged' is another thing!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Jul 2009, 23:37

hmm. I thought phonetically similarly constructed words of the same kind (i.e. noun, verb etc.) would take the same kinds of variant forms in most languages. I wonder what is so torturous of that (it is certainly speculative!). The lexicon (dictionary) gives both tozhuu and tazhuvu (with literature references). If any, it is tozha which seems suspect as per that lexicon

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Jul 2009, 23:51

Besides umpteen references to tozha when you google search in tamizh. I found this interesting one for tozhuva.

Kamba Ramayanam (Yutha Kaandam) - II - 10:18am
ÃƒÂ Ã‚Â®Ã…Â¡ÃƒÂ Ã‚Â¯Ã‚Â

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 01 Aug 2009, 03:19

arunk, sure, let's call it speculative, not torturous, but my example shows how we shouldn't make the assumption that variant forms are the same (especially when usage is not evident). Re the Kamba Ramayanam excerpt, I don't know enough, but it does not appear to be the same word we're discussing (worship). This forum has many expert posters (I'm definitely not one of "you experts"); perhaps one of them can weigh in on. I'm happy to let the matter rest, but on the other hand, if we find some interesting details on this word, why not keep it going?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Aug 2009, 03:42

Sure it is not perhaps a reliable rule - but I think your example is not the same as the "rule" I was referring to.

See here per the original reasoning by arasi and others, tozhugai becomes tozha - that is similar say to to azhugai becoming azha. Thus you can take azhudal, azhugirAn, azhAdE, azhu etc. and substitute tozh instead of azh and you have the same constructs for that apply for worshipping as for crying. Same way you take pEN and take kaN and all variant forms would follow similar rules (peNNin, peNNAl, peNNum etc.)

Now here people assumed the root is similar to azhugai/azhudal. But apparently there also exists tozhuvu (it is perhaps archaic), and the meaning was confirmed as worshipping in the lexicon. Hence, I wonderered if it would be similar to tazhuvu - just like tozhugai/azhugai correlation.

While there is probably exceptions to this, I think in general languages do follow this correlation for phonetically similar constructs of the same kind.

Arun

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 01 Aug 2009, 04:13

arunk, the other posters did not arrive at "tozha" after a grammatical analysis, but just stated what their normal use of the word would be. Now we have a situation where the word "tozhuva" is apparently not in the dictionary, and apparently not in commonplace use. The simple conclusion (mine) is that it is a mistake. You attempted to justify this usage through a grammatical exercise that I feel is not entirely defensible (read Punarvasu's post again; plus here are a few more examples: reading/beading; speaking/leaking; telling/belling). However, I'm no expert, and as I said will be happy to change my mind if I find usages of tozhuva or some archaic references in literature with the current meaning.

Edit: I forgot to mention arasi's clear post above:

arasi wrote:toZhuva? tozhudal is the root, not tozhuvudal.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 01 Aug 2009, 06:18

Arun,
what you have stated sound interesting;worth probing further.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Aug 2009, 09:40

gn.sn42,

Actually later on I realized I didn't quite get as to why hitten vs. bitten didnt apply. I think I compared hit to bite (as bit the past-tense, and hit applies to both) and must have subconsciously glossed over the main point.

Yes, if we consider English, this rule is far less followed compared to say Tamil. And so I definitely overgeneralized when I said languages in general follow this etc. Also, although I remembered Arasi mentioning a root in one post, I mistakenly recollected it as tozhugai and didnt double-check when I posted #74 above. It is of course tozhudal - which would still have helped me make that point (i.e. azhudal) - but that is besides the point as I dont want to belabor this any further. At least based on the info from lexicon (for tozhuvu) as well as the kambaramayanam quote (I am no expert, but based on the context in the quote above I do believe it has the same meaning as the one we are discussing here), I still stand by my reasoning. Without this, it would have been remained speculative with zero support - and I would like to think I would have dropped it.

Also apparently there is a bharatiyar poem too with the words: ÃƒÂ Ã‚Â®Ã‚Â

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Aug 2009, 09:49

Just wanted to add that the above was my last (meaningful - atleast to me

) post on this subject - I shut up now. For some reason, once I add tamil text in a post, I am unable to edit the post (get some strange error from the server) - the same thing happened to my earlier post which had tamil text.

Arun

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 01 Aug 2009, 09:50

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 01 Aug 2009, 10:01

arunk, the Bharati example is a good one, and might be enough to convince me. And when I think about your azha/tozha example a little, I know that some say "azhuva" where others/formal sources require "azha". I looked at a few dictionaries and can't find support for this in the tozha case, but I'm dabbling in areas where I lack knowledge. Enough to say that I'm closer to agreeing with your view now than before. Thanks for a good discussion - I'll step away unless I get directly pertinent data to contribute.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Aug 2009, 10:13

Arun,
I don't want to prolong it either but bArati says (as you have quoted) tozhuvadu+ennE? expressing wonder (ennE?). The act of worshipping is tozhuvadu. not tozhuvudal.
Take azhudal again. Let's imagine a new pallavi line with azhudal (exactly as in tozhudal): unnai ninaittazha idu samayam or, unnai ninaittazhuva idu samayam? Now, let's not think of the colloquial azhuvAdE for azhAde!
Please don't think I am fussy but words do occupy my mind quite a lot
and I can't help wondering!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 01 Aug 2009, 10:23

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 01 Aug 2009, 13:49

I also think in the same lines as arasi.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Aug 2009, 19:41

Arasi - Point taken. Indeed, the bharathi reference is not the same kind as what the kamban one seems to be. Can you please look into the kamban reference to see if it is indeed relevant to the issue at hand?

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Aug 2009, 04:14

Arun,
I ran it by an expert--you may know him

Just to make sure I am not making things muddy. Here is what he has to say: I agree with you. tozhal, azhal, uzhal are three verbs which form a group and are declined similarly.
He adds, like azhuval, tozhuval exists in the colloquial tongue for praying (among muslims--from tozhugai).
So, if the reference to kAnci is there (I didn't see it; to me, it was merely a pastoral line and my source does not see the connection either)--we could call it a sarva samaya pallavi line, with tozhuval thrown in

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 02 Aug 2009, 06:41

arasi/Arun, thanks for an informative discussion.
I am reminded of the the kuRaL
'uzhuduNDu vAzhvArE vAzhvar maTTrellAm
thozhuduNDu pin selbavar'.
Of course from this we can not make out that 'uzhal and thozhal' are the verb forms.

Like you, I also did not see the conncetion to kAchi and I felt the word should be 'thazhuva' as pointed
out by Sundara Rajan.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Aug 2009, 07:16

tazhuva might take the sense of the line to another plane.To me, this pallavi line conveys the sense of a meditative mood.
tazhuva brings to mind: to embrace, and there is no hint of SringAra rasa evident in the line for me. On a lighter note (on a serious subject, of course) is the other tazhuval: to join a fold (a new religion)!
I would be happy with 'tozhavE' and that good old word as I remember it: tudikka

I better make this my last line on the subject...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Aug 2009, 08:41

Thanks arasi. I can certainly see that tozhuval in the above would be only a colloqual form like azhuval - i.e. based on similarity of those two verbs. Also, although we certainly know about the uses of tozha, like I communicated to you elsewhere, am I right that a short okaram followed by zhakaram seems rare in formal tamizh? Are there others? I am sure I must be missing something and there must be! I am curious.

The other intriguing thing here which I would like some input on is the "tozhuvu" I found in the lexicon - http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... 2.tamillex - the reference seems to be in ÃƒÂ Ã‚Â®Ã¢â‚¬Â ÃƒÂ Ã‚Â®Ã…Â¡ÃƒÂ Ã‚Â®Ã‚Â¾ÃƒÂ Ã‚Â®Ã‚Â°ÃƒÂ Ã‚Â®Ã¢â‚¬Â¢ÃƒÂ Ã‚Â¯Ã‚Â

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 04 Aug 2009, 07:17

coolkarni wrote:
srinivasrgvn wrote:
coolkarni wrote:and the famous pallavi from the TRS lecdem on demystifying pallavis
1234 , 1234 , 1234
What do you mean?? Is this lec-dem available??
http://www.mediafire.com/file/dhwtzydgnb2/TRS-LEC-DEM -PALLAVI -1a.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jhdzdnzyymz/TRS-LEC-DEM -PALLAVI -1b.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/nmzdjjkivkq/TRS-LEC-DEM -PALLAVI -2a.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/yvywvgei2dm/TRS-LEC-DEM -PALLAVI -2b.mp3

Thank you so much, cool ji. I am ever indebted to you.