What attracts crowds to a concert??
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kadambam
- Posts: 104
- Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 04:10
lifeisasong,
Good point, probably the western classical music is presented in total adherence to traditional/classical format without any compromise on "audience tastes" etc. It might have taken many years to reach this stage.
It all depends on how high we want to climb. A view from the 20-30 ft looks beautiful and can be enjoyed with little effort, but we go the 'extra mile' and climb (say)200ft in the same mountain, it looks spectacular. We don't know how high this mountain is!!! still climbing!!
Good point, probably the western classical music is presented in total adherence to traditional/classical format without any compromise on "audience tastes" etc. It might have taken many years to reach this stage.
It all depends on how high we want to climb. A view from the 20-30 ft looks beautiful and can be enjoyed with little effort, but we go the 'extra mile' and climb (say)200ft in the same mountain, it looks spectacular. We don't know how high this mountain is!!! still climbing!!
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
I wish to consider the analogy of learning maths vs science for students. Maths requires high deal of effort and concentration whereas science is entertaining and practical. Of course part of maths is learned through science through application. The parallel is the hard-core CM vs the CM-based cine/light music. Successful performers cleverly and judiciously use light music to educate the audience who later learn to appreciate the finer points of hard-core CM. For example KV was very successful in doing this and crowds used to flock for his concerts. In his younger days he used to accompany all the stalvarts and had indeed mastered the nuances of classical CM but in the later days exclusively focussed on developing his own brand of CM which lost him the support of the elites. Other instrumentalists should learn from his experience and may judiciously adapt his techniques for attracting crowds.
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Sathej
- Posts: 586
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:23
Well, math requires 'high' deal of effort and concentration, whilst science is entertaining? I thought it was the other way around!cmlover wrote:I wish to consider the analogy of learning maths vs science for students. Maths requires high deal of effort and concentration whereas science is entertaining and practical. Of course part of maths is learned through science through application.
Sathej
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Sathej, CML's analogy may not carry forward all the way but it is a good analogy, isn't it? Pure vs Applied Mathematics... Raga for the sake of raga vs raga as applied to a specific goal. There are people who revel at pure mathematics and consider the applications of it to be too boring and frivolous and then there are others who derive great pleasure in the applications of it even if it may not be earth shatering. The former is a relatively smaller set compared to the latter set, and there is a spectrum between these two. It is a striking parallel to our discussion here.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Oh, no! Another 'aDi' expression. If spoken tamizh gets limited to two verbs: aDDikkiRadu and paNNugiRadu, is there hope for the well being of tamizh and for tamizh lyrics? Yes, we used slang too when we were young. But our tamizh and pronounciation was not 'cinnat tirait tamizh (TV tamizh).
In the west, concerts are usually well attended. Some who do not go to concerts listen to classical music on the radio. Watch classical music programs and operas and ballet on television.
I am happy that through films some are introduced to CM.
Glad that some serious musicians have turned popular to bring audiences concert halls.
I am glad dance is popular. Whether dance fans particularly care for it or not, dance music is after all CM music. It gets into their systems.
I am very happy to hear young rasikA members saying that it was through films that they came into the CM fold. Some of them are experts now in understanding CM!
We still have several proponents of CM who keep CM at a high level. It is the kind of music which appeals both to the mind and to the heart. vazhiyum, bhAvamum...
In the west, concerts are usually well attended. Some who do not go to concerts listen to classical music on the radio. Watch classical music programs and operas and ballet on television.
I am happy that through films some are introduced to CM.
Glad that some serious musicians have turned popular to bring audiences concert halls.
I am glad dance is popular. Whether dance fans particularly care for it or not, dance music is after all CM music. It gets into their systems.
I am very happy to hear young rasikA members saying that it was through films that they came into the CM fold. Some of them are experts now in understanding CM!
We still have several proponents of CM who keep CM at a high level. It is the kind of music which appeals both to the mind and to the heart. vazhiyum, bhAvamum...
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
To make it simple
-Musicians,strictly adhering to the Classical Excellence in Tradition, with knowledge gained through wide repertoire, attaining mastery in manodharmam aspect of CM, give music appealing to Mind and Heart- like high quality, pure and healthy meals offered on celebrations, traditional way.
-Musicians, well versed in classical excellence in tradition, learning enough no of compositions to successfully perform, striving to give music-pleasing, catchy and trendy, good use of the craft, constantly different choice, give music appealing to ear and heart - like fare offered in buffet meals.
-Musicians, quickly learning, adopting,compromising, rushing to perform, with uncommon knack of understanding the pulse and popular expectations of rasikas, taking resort to exciting gimmicks, sincerely trying and succeeding to keep music, quickly gratifying, give music that is high on rhythm, vigorous and also easy/pleasing to the ear- like serving snacks/quick-mini lunch/pizzas-burgers etc.
MDR's music belongs to the first category-music appealing for the learned and discerning - with clear choice for food of type- satvic/healthy and satisfying meals. Few of the items may not be appealing and liked in the offering. Better skip or avoid. Like MDR's own interpretations(ati vilamba, for instance), obsession with voice effects and bad use of voice or style of vakra rendering of sangathis.
KJY's music belongs to the second category-appealing to the rasika with or without knowledge of CM and also satisfying the learned, to a limited extent - with clear choice for food of type- rajasik - robust, arresting and compelling instant appreciation/applause. KJY' has naturally gifted top quality voice, he has mastered the use of the rich voice, sruthi sudham, through sadhana. Sincere and desiplined . Had the great advantage of singing for Greatest Maestros in composing-film music and perfecting the art of making appealing and pleasing music. Unfortunately, he has chosen not to measure up to the depth of music compositions of master composers, to whom he had the privilege of lending the voice, in his own Classical Music. Either for the reason of keeping his voice to be flexible for both Classical CM and
Classical Film Music or genuinely failed to be impressed with classical music, appealing to the intellect.
munirao2001
-Musicians,strictly adhering to the Classical Excellence in Tradition, with knowledge gained through wide repertoire, attaining mastery in manodharmam aspect of CM, give music appealing to Mind and Heart- like high quality, pure and healthy meals offered on celebrations, traditional way.
-Musicians, well versed in classical excellence in tradition, learning enough no of compositions to successfully perform, striving to give music-pleasing, catchy and trendy, good use of the craft, constantly different choice, give music appealing to ear and heart - like fare offered in buffet meals.
-Musicians, quickly learning, adopting,compromising, rushing to perform, with uncommon knack of understanding the pulse and popular expectations of rasikas, taking resort to exciting gimmicks, sincerely trying and succeeding to keep music, quickly gratifying, give music that is high on rhythm, vigorous and also easy/pleasing to the ear- like serving snacks/quick-mini lunch/pizzas-burgers etc.
MDR's music belongs to the first category-music appealing for the learned and discerning - with clear choice for food of type- satvic/healthy and satisfying meals. Few of the items may not be appealing and liked in the offering. Better skip or avoid. Like MDR's own interpretations(ati vilamba, for instance), obsession with voice effects and bad use of voice or style of vakra rendering of sangathis.
KJY's music belongs to the second category-appealing to the rasika with or without knowledge of CM and also satisfying the learned, to a limited extent - with clear choice for food of type- rajasik - robust, arresting and compelling instant appreciation/applause. KJY' has naturally gifted top quality voice, he has mastered the use of the rich voice, sruthi sudham, through sadhana. Sincere and desiplined . Had the great advantage of singing for Greatest Maestros in composing-film music and perfecting the art of making appealing and pleasing music. Unfortunately, he has chosen not to measure up to the depth of music compositions of master composers, to whom he had the privilege of lending the voice, in his own Classical Music. Either for the reason of keeping his voice to be flexible for both Classical CM and
Classical Film Music or genuinely failed to be impressed with classical music, appealing to the intellect.
munirao2001
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munirao2001
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hnbhagavan
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- Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06
HNBhagavan , Bangalore
I have attended concerts of MDR at Bangalore and Bombay. The hall used to be full. At Bangalore Gayana Samaja ,Fort High School and Seshadripuram,MDR used to draw good crowd. In most of MDR concerts,the accompanists were of high calibre like MSG,TNK,Lalgudi,Umayalapuram Sivaraman , Palghat Raghu etc.
I am of the opinion that MDR had good number of rasikas during 1960-84 period.
HNBhagavan
I have attended concerts of MDR at Bangalore and Bombay. The hall used to be full. At Bangalore Gayana Samaja ,Fort High School and Seshadripuram,MDR used to draw good crowd. In most of MDR concerts,the accompanists were of high calibre like MSG,TNK,Lalgudi,Umayalapuram Sivaraman , Palghat Raghu etc.
I am of the opinion that MDR had good number of rasikas during 1960-84 period.
HNBhagavan
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
munirao2001
That is brilliant, the categorization of musicians as saatvik, raajasik amd taamasik..
I agree with you on both counts on MDR and KJY. It is not difficult to find an example for the third kind (no need to name them!). There are very few who belong to the saatvik category; one that I can immediately think of is CVB..
That is brilliant, the categorization of musicians as saatvik, raajasik amd taamasik..
I agree with you on both counts on MDR and KJY. It is not difficult to find an example for the third kind (no need to name them!). There are very few who belong to the saatvik category; one that I can immediately think of is CVB..
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
What attracts crowd ?
The discussion is about the ‘crowd’ ( an unfortunate selection of word) to a concert. But an analysis of the ‘crowd’ yet to be made. Different stratas of liseners get formed due similar combination of concert attending habits and preferences. Each one of the strata might be small but when a number of stratas converge together in a single concert there would be an overwhelming crowd.
Some of the salient preferences and habits ( these are the ‘drivers’ that drives the person to take decision to go to the concert,) that attract a ‘crowd to a concert would be,
"¢ Charishma or popularity factor which musicians like MSS, GNB etc.enjoyed. Even Vazuvoor had a majestic stage presence.
"¢ Connections with film profession like KJY, KV, Vaijayantimala etc
"¢ Looks and appearances of the musicians. Example MSS. Parveen Sultana, GNB,
"¢ Sweet, pleasant voice of the musician, MSS, BMK, MLV or sweetness of the instrument (Mali, MSG, TNK, LGJ, Mandolin Srinivas and others)
"¢ The name and fame of the artist and his publicised achievements,
"¢ A prior experience of concert
"¢ Fan’s emotional attachment to artist
"¢ Expectation of dramatic events on the stage ( example Mali, Chowdaiah, Palghat Mani, Veena Balachandar)
"¢ Expectation of ‘duels’ of skill on the stage ( between laya experts and repartee with violinists)
"¢ Expectation of learning about music, mostly students
"¢ Pleasant experience in the auditorium
"¢ Not to miss a rare performance
"¢ Watching something new ( joint ventures, HM CM duets, Fusion etc)
"¢ To escape from routine and have some peace of mind
"¢ Meeting friends , socialising and snobbery
"¢ To watch audience reactions
"¢ Watching the members of the audience
May be there are more but my capacity to visualize is only this much !
Many members of the audience would be attracted by more than one factor. Thus different groups of audience would get formed depending on the commonness of the interests of the membes.
It is a matter for analysis (or detective work) to find out which combination is necessary to create a pull of the ‘crowd’ which, members with more expertise than me would be able to undertake.
There are some conclusions I have arrived at after closely watching many performers emerging from nonentity status to a top ranking status. The comments below might help fresh and/ or unsuccessful musicians.
Just as in the case of money, you can become very rich easily only if are able to handle large sums of money. More the money you have, more the chances are for you to become very rich. Like that unless you are initially successful at a few important concerts you cannot ascend fast in your career. A successful impact will be the first step in the ladder for ascent.
It is considered that making a striking impact on entry is the most important. Audience must be left wondering why such a calibre musician is still ignored. This requires tremendous practice and achievement of perfection. Each and every item should have been practiced several times before presenting on the stage. Taking up an unpractised krithi or raga might bring disasterous results. Every concert must be conquered. Every concert must be analysed for lapses and effort should be taken that they never occur again.
The musician should have the ability to gauge the mood of the audience and sing accordingly. This is one of the most powerful tools in self promotion. When on a stage, the musician must sing for the audience and not for himself. An artist wanting to preserve the tradition would appear only on select stages. A house concert or informal atmosphere is the best place to sing for oneself. It is said that Aftab e Mosiqui Ustad Faiyaz Khan, when faced with a very large, musically illiterate, audience just sang some Gazals and came away without being hooted out !
The would be top musician gives a lot of importance to the appearance on the stage. When it is a stage, the rules of drama apply. The dress code, behaviour should be such that they do not offend the listeners. The start, the climax, the end should all be planned well. Treating the accompanist well, with a smiling face always produces dividends. Sometimes when a there is a troublesome accompanist, a graceful tolerance towards him gives plus points in the minds of the listeners.
A product must be visible to the buyers. A musician must be in the minds of the organisers. Out of sight out of mind. For this PR is essential. About the seniors, some do it aggressively, some do it gracefully. The essence is, when a concert schedule is prepared the musician’s name should be considered. Some musicians keep up relations by frequent and timely contact, inviting them to his concerts functions etc., asking them to join in his tours, being flexible in remuneration, and obliging them in so many ways. Some bluntly say that they would be present on the next year’s festival !
Many musicians have suffered on account of lack of finesse in writing replies to the organisers and not having a suitable secretary to handle the affairs. A good communicator always gets a favourable impression with the organisers.
Keeping up commitments despite more lucrative offers keeps the professional growth alive.
To get a name in the public some musicians start an organisation. An organisation helps the musicians to invite and honour concert organisers, invite them as VIPs in music festivals involve them as judges in competitions, and make them feel obliged. It also enhances their image in the public. There are also ‘quid pro quo’ arrangement between musicians who also have organisation of their own.
My post is getting too long. It better I end it now. If I had made any offending statement they are not intentions and so kindly bear with me.
Shivadasan
The discussion is about the ‘crowd’ ( an unfortunate selection of word) to a concert. But an analysis of the ‘crowd’ yet to be made. Different stratas of liseners get formed due similar combination of concert attending habits and preferences. Each one of the strata might be small but when a number of stratas converge together in a single concert there would be an overwhelming crowd.
Some of the salient preferences and habits ( these are the ‘drivers’ that drives the person to take decision to go to the concert,) that attract a ‘crowd to a concert would be,
"¢ Charishma or popularity factor which musicians like MSS, GNB etc.enjoyed. Even Vazuvoor had a majestic stage presence.
"¢ Connections with film profession like KJY, KV, Vaijayantimala etc
"¢ Looks and appearances of the musicians. Example MSS. Parveen Sultana, GNB,
"¢ Sweet, pleasant voice of the musician, MSS, BMK, MLV or sweetness of the instrument (Mali, MSG, TNK, LGJ, Mandolin Srinivas and others)
"¢ The name and fame of the artist and his publicised achievements,
"¢ A prior experience of concert
"¢ Fan’s emotional attachment to artist
"¢ Expectation of dramatic events on the stage ( example Mali, Chowdaiah, Palghat Mani, Veena Balachandar)
"¢ Expectation of ‘duels’ of skill on the stage ( between laya experts and repartee with violinists)
"¢ Expectation of learning about music, mostly students
"¢ Pleasant experience in the auditorium
"¢ Not to miss a rare performance
"¢ Watching something new ( joint ventures, HM CM duets, Fusion etc)
"¢ To escape from routine and have some peace of mind
"¢ Meeting friends , socialising and snobbery
"¢ To watch audience reactions
"¢ Watching the members of the audience
May be there are more but my capacity to visualize is only this much !
Many members of the audience would be attracted by more than one factor. Thus different groups of audience would get formed depending on the commonness of the interests of the membes.
It is a matter for analysis (or detective work) to find out which combination is necessary to create a pull of the ‘crowd’ which, members with more expertise than me would be able to undertake.
There are some conclusions I have arrived at after closely watching many performers emerging from nonentity status to a top ranking status. The comments below might help fresh and/ or unsuccessful musicians.
Just as in the case of money, you can become very rich easily only if are able to handle large sums of money. More the money you have, more the chances are for you to become very rich. Like that unless you are initially successful at a few important concerts you cannot ascend fast in your career. A successful impact will be the first step in the ladder for ascent.
It is considered that making a striking impact on entry is the most important. Audience must be left wondering why such a calibre musician is still ignored. This requires tremendous practice and achievement of perfection. Each and every item should have been practiced several times before presenting on the stage. Taking up an unpractised krithi or raga might bring disasterous results. Every concert must be conquered. Every concert must be analysed for lapses and effort should be taken that they never occur again.
The musician should have the ability to gauge the mood of the audience and sing accordingly. This is one of the most powerful tools in self promotion. When on a stage, the musician must sing for the audience and not for himself. An artist wanting to preserve the tradition would appear only on select stages. A house concert or informal atmosphere is the best place to sing for oneself. It is said that Aftab e Mosiqui Ustad Faiyaz Khan, when faced with a very large, musically illiterate, audience just sang some Gazals and came away without being hooted out !
The would be top musician gives a lot of importance to the appearance on the stage. When it is a stage, the rules of drama apply. The dress code, behaviour should be such that they do not offend the listeners. The start, the climax, the end should all be planned well. Treating the accompanist well, with a smiling face always produces dividends. Sometimes when a there is a troublesome accompanist, a graceful tolerance towards him gives plus points in the minds of the listeners.
A product must be visible to the buyers. A musician must be in the minds of the organisers. Out of sight out of mind. For this PR is essential. About the seniors, some do it aggressively, some do it gracefully. The essence is, when a concert schedule is prepared the musician’s name should be considered. Some musicians keep up relations by frequent and timely contact, inviting them to his concerts functions etc., asking them to join in his tours, being flexible in remuneration, and obliging them in so many ways. Some bluntly say that they would be present on the next year’s festival !
Many musicians have suffered on account of lack of finesse in writing replies to the organisers and not having a suitable secretary to handle the affairs. A good communicator always gets a favourable impression with the organisers.
Keeping up commitments despite more lucrative offers keeps the professional growth alive.
To get a name in the public some musicians start an organisation. An organisation helps the musicians to invite and honour concert organisers, invite them as VIPs in music festivals involve them as judges in competitions, and make them feel obliged. It also enhances their image in the public. There are also ‘quid pro quo’ arrangement between musicians who also have organisation of their own.
My post is getting too long. It better I end it now. If I had made any offending statement they are not intentions and so kindly bear with me.
Shivadasan
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
An excellent exposition of the practical, musical and political aspects of crowd-drawing! You have taken much of the mystery out of it and made it sound simple, although for an artist to actually accomplish all, or even sufficient number, of these points maybe far from possible, let alone simple.
One thing that you do not mention is critics. Getting the eye/ear of the critics, leading not only to review, but to regular review, probably helps a great deal to keep up the audience numbers. It probably helps to keep the musician in the mind of journalists when they have an article or interview to undertake. Unless the review is really dreadful, I am sure every little bit of publicity helps.
One thing that you do not mention is critics. Getting the eye/ear of the critics, leading not only to review, but to regular review, probably helps a great deal to keep up the audience numbers. It probably helps to keep the musician in the mind of journalists when they have an article or interview to undertake. Unless the review is really dreadful, I am sure every little bit of publicity helps.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Shivadasan, that is quite a thorough set of observations. As you say, the initial 'boot strapping' is the most difficult phase. How does one get started? As with non-art fields, there is no campus interview or newspaper advertisements or job fare to hire CM music graduates as performing musicians. That is how the boot strapping happens in other professional fields.
Along these lines...
1) The guru seems to matter a lot. Play this scenario out. You receive an email invitation. Artist's name is not familiar. What is the next thing you look for before deciding whether to attend or not? I bet most of us look for who the guru is before making the decision. So the guru is the greatest marketing tool available to the artists. If not the direct guru, it is the lineage of gurus that matter. This runs quite deep in rasikas' psychology. Only extra-ordinary talent from an unknown guru can make it big where as some ordinary talent from an extra-ordinary guru can make it. What happens after the boot strap is a different matter.
2) The music festivals and "seasons" work on the model of the age old 'sandai' concept in India. Traditionally, it is a weekly market for buyers and sellers. That is, though buyers and sellers can do business at any time and at any place, it is much more efficient if they congregate at one place periodically. It takes a while for that to stick before both buyerss and sellers organize their schedule around the market time. After that, activity is centered around that sandai time. So these "markets" need to go through their own boot strapping process but once established they become the center of gravity for activity.
One can ask, why can't I create my own market? One can definitely try and succeed but it is quite hard. On line example of a sandai is e-Bay. Why can't there be many successful e-Bays? Most people think the primary reason is that e-bay has some technological advantage over others. The technology part is true to some extent though there is enough software available for anyone to setup an on-line marketplace. The predominant reason is: Once established, Buyers go there because sellers are there, sellers go there because buyers are there. It is a powerful inter-dependency to break or duplicate.
Along these lines...
1) The guru seems to matter a lot. Play this scenario out. You receive an email invitation. Artist's name is not familiar. What is the next thing you look for before deciding whether to attend or not? I bet most of us look for who the guru is before making the decision. So the guru is the greatest marketing tool available to the artists. If not the direct guru, it is the lineage of gurus that matter. This runs quite deep in rasikas' psychology. Only extra-ordinary talent from an unknown guru can make it big where as some ordinary talent from an extra-ordinary guru can make it. What happens after the boot strap is a different matter.
2) The music festivals and "seasons" work on the model of the age old 'sandai' concept in India. Traditionally, it is a weekly market for buyers and sellers. That is, though buyers and sellers can do business at any time and at any place, it is much more efficient if they congregate at one place periodically. It takes a while for that to stick before both buyerss and sellers organize their schedule around the market time. After that, activity is centered around that sandai time. So these "markets" need to go through their own boot strapping process but once established they become the center of gravity for activity.
One can ask, why can't I create my own market? One can definitely try and succeed but it is quite hard. On line example of a sandai is e-Bay. Why can't there be many successful e-Bays? Most people think the primary reason is that e-bay has some technological advantage over others. The technology part is true to some extent though there is enough software available for anyone to setup an on-line marketplace. The predominant reason is: Once established, Buyers go there because sellers are there, sellers go there because buyers are there. It is a powerful inter-dependency to break or duplicate.
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
VKRaman
Music for the learned- demanding heightened intellectual involvement- can not be music for the large audience or for the masses. Classical Music of any genre, are for rasikas, with difference , with highest standards of expectations and hard to please/satisfy. But with the success of delivery of total satisfaction, musician, wins over the rasika(s). They command high degree of respect, affection and loyalty- to the musician and to his music. Head count should not be judgement criteria for assessment and decision on the quality of music or vidwath of the vidwan.
To achieve the continuous improvement in Quality in Classical Music, immense, intensive. innovative and great efforts/work/actions are required to increase the rasikas base for Classical Music .
Music for the learned- demanding heightened intellectual involvement- can not be music for the large audience or for the masses. Classical Music of any genre, are for rasikas, with difference , with highest standards of expectations and hard to please/satisfy. But with the success of delivery of total satisfaction, musician, wins over the rasika(s). They command high degree of respect, affection and loyalty- to the musician and to his music. Head count should not be judgement criteria for assessment and decision on the quality of music or vidwath of the vidwan.
To achieve the continuous improvement in Quality in Classical Music, immense, intensive. innovative and great efforts/work/actions are required to increase the rasikas base for Classical Music .
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munirao2001
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- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
In Western music, much of the classical music (that much overused term that covers centuries and several different cultures) was the pop of its day.munirao2001 wrote:VKRaman
Music for the learned- demanding heightened intellectual involvement- can not be music for the large audience or for the masses. Classical Music of any genre, are for rasikas, with difference , with highest standards of expectations and hard to please/satisfy. But with the success of delivery of total satisfaction, musician, wins over the rasika(s). They command high degree of respect, affection and loyalty- to the musician and to his music. Head count should not be judgement criteria for assessment and decision on the quality of music or vidwath of the vidwan.
To achieve the continuous improvement in Quality in Classical Music, immense, intensive. innovative and great efforts/work/actions are required to increase the rasikas base for Classical Music .
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karthikbala
- Posts: 221
- Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 09:58
Good point; operetta is regularly performed by opera companies (Fledermaus, Merry Widow etc.) In gala performances, there is a lot of horsing around. The loggionisti in Scala galleries even today are anything but "elite" audiences. Today, any form of opera is considered "classical", "elitist" etc. by outsiders.nick H wrote: In Western music, much of the classical music (that much overused term that covers centuries and several different cultures) was the pop of its day.
In one of her lec-dems, Smt. Vedavalli claimed that Carnatic music was enjoyed by more sections in the past (temple crowds etc.) and that deleterious influences/imports from outside have led to changing tastes. I'm sure there are widely differing views on the subject, and I won't bring up rickshaw-pullers lest things get thrown at me...Nevertheless, IMHO, the notion that CM can be truly appreciated only by the select cognoscenti is tripe. Celebrating drabness/aesthetic-insensitivity as a virtue and apologising for inability of performers to make their music enjoyable does not bode well for CM.
Last edited by karthikbala on 15 Jul 2009, 09:56, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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karthik: I would like to know what you think about this way of looking at things: "Medium" and "Message". For some people Medium is the message but for others message is quite distinct and they are even willing to look beyond the scratchy medium. Here Medium is the various characteristics like "voice quality", "energy in the voice", "sweet tones from an instrument", "deftness in handling the insrument" etc. Message is the music that is CM itself ( the actual melody, laya, gamaka, bhavam etc. )
My theory is, in terms of CM audience, the sweet spot in terms of attracting big audiences is "High fidelity Rich and Sweet Medium' and 'Easy to access, readily apparent, reasonably technical message".
That will explain why there is small audiences for 'Rich on medium and low on message' and 'Low on medium and Rich on message'.
My theory is, in terms of CM audience, the sweet spot in terms of attracting big audiences is "High fidelity Rich and Sweet Medium' and 'Easy to access, readily apparent, reasonably technical message".
That will explain why there is small audiences for 'Rich on medium and low on message' and 'Low on medium and Rich on message'.
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karthikbala
- Posts: 221
- Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 09:58
True, both the medium and message as you put it, should be there. I feel however, that the medium to a certain extent is a prerequisite. For instance, you can take a great author and ask them to write in a language they are semi-literate in; the great ideas/messages will not come through. When the medium is very "scratchy", you just have noise. There are people who will claim to have Evolved Taste and can extract great messages from bad renditions. The fact is, we can make similar claims regarding factory noise; we get conditioned to that too over time...vasanthakokilam wrote:karthik: I would like to know what you think about this way of looking at things: "Medium" and "Message". For some people Medium is the message but for others message is quite distinct and they are even willing to look beyond the scratchy medium. Here Medium is the various characteristics like "voice quality", "energy in the voice", "sweet tones from an instrument", "deftness in handling the insrument" etc. Message is the music that is CM itself ( the actual melody, laya, gamaka, bhavam etc. )
My theory is, in terms of CM audience, the sweet spot in terms of attracting big audiences is "High fidelity Rich and Sweet Medium' and 'Easy to access, readily apparent, reasonably technical message".
That will explain why there is small audiences for 'Rich on medium and low on message' and 'Low on medium and Rich on message'.
I guess my point is musicians with great ideas and bad delivery should switch to composing or teaching, and not inflict the public with bad performances. The total devaluation of teaching and composing activity in CM is tragic, which is why virtually anyone even superficially dabbling in CM wants to perform on a dais.
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
Nick.H.
When new knowledge & practice , is offered, except in very exceptional cases, resistance for the change is bound to be there, to feel comfort and secure with the existing knowledge and practice. Few break out, take efforts to experience, study and declare the value of the new offer. They take committed efforts for the assimilation of the new knowledge and the knowledge gets, richer. Until this process is completed, new offerings will be considered as having 'novelty' value only and the attitude is dismissive, in general. But, if the new offering contains, factually, only 'novelty' factor and does not enrich the knowledge, it will remain thus - may be, like pop. Do serious study of classical music development, to find out the fact, by yourself.
Karthikbala
'IMHO, the notion that CM can be truly appreciated only by the select cognoscenti is tripe. Celebrating drabness/aesthetic-insensitivity as a virtue and apologising for inability of performers to make their music enjoyable does not bode well for CM', is not acceptable. While it is fact that the rasika tolerance for drabness/aesthetic-insensitivity, mostly as 'style' by IM-CM musicians, in particular is to be immediately stopped, it is not true that the poor quality is being 'celebrated' Learned rasikas, getting immense satisfaction of experience of rich quality of the music, put up with the blemishes, silently(unfortunately). This phenomenon is applicable for other performing arts and in literature, also.
Rasikas have to welcome musician only after the corrective action is taken.
Vasanthakokilam
Majority of the rasikas, want to be with the celebrity of the times, identifying them self with success of the celebrity/star of the times. High profile/visibility/promotion/endorsement of the celebrity, is to be appreciated instantly, uncritically, to feel secure that their choice was right , not missing out and avoidance of being odd with the majority(crowd). Everything being offered by the celebrity, is simply accepted and for their own fortification of the satisfaction, and hailed as unique and unmatched. Factually, may not be correct. Who cares ?(in the crowd).
Only lesser percentage of rasikas, with their own knowledge(experience) of genuinely highly rich quality of the music, dare to be different and demanding.
When new knowledge & practice , is offered, except in very exceptional cases, resistance for the change is bound to be there, to feel comfort and secure with the existing knowledge and practice. Few break out, take efforts to experience, study and declare the value of the new offer. They take committed efforts for the assimilation of the new knowledge and the knowledge gets, richer. Until this process is completed, new offerings will be considered as having 'novelty' value only and the attitude is dismissive, in general. But, if the new offering contains, factually, only 'novelty' factor and does not enrich the knowledge, it will remain thus - may be, like pop. Do serious study of classical music development, to find out the fact, by yourself.
Karthikbala
'IMHO, the notion that CM can be truly appreciated only by the select cognoscenti is tripe. Celebrating drabness/aesthetic-insensitivity as a virtue and apologising for inability of performers to make their music enjoyable does not bode well for CM', is not acceptable. While it is fact that the rasika tolerance for drabness/aesthetic-insensitivity, mostly as 'style' by IM-CM musicians, in particular is to be immediately stopped, it is not true that the poor quality is being 'celebrated' Learned rasikas, getting immense satisfaction of experience of rich quality of the music, put up with the blemishes, silently(unfortunately). This phenomenon is applicable for other performing arts and in literature, also.
Rasikas have to welcome musician only after the corrective action is taken.
Vasanthakokilam
Majority of the rasikas, want to be with the celebrity of the times, identifying them self with success of the celebrity/star of the times. High profile/visibility/promotion/endorsement of the celebrity, is to be appreciated instantly, uncritically, to feel secure that their choice was right , not missing out and avoidance of being odd with the majority(crowd). Everything being offered by the celebrity, is simply accepted and for their own fortification of the satisfaction, and hailed as unique and unmatched. Factually, may not be correct. Who cares ?(in the crowd).
Only lesser percentage of rasikas, with their own knowledge(experience) of genuinely highly rich quality of the music, dare to be different and demanding.
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
But some such problems are considered too "elementary" to be worthy of attention so late in life.Rasikas have to welcome musician only after the corrective action is taken.
Last edited by srikant1987 on 15 Jul 2009, 15:05, edited 1 time in total.
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karthikbala
- Posts: 221
- Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 09:58
Well said, but the converse also exists. There is also such a thing as "reverse-snobbery", where some deliberately seek out obscure performers and obscure music as it panders to their sense of knowing something that the "unwashed masses" don't. My own rule of thumb is, if there are only a dozen lonely souls in the hall, show a clean pair of heels...munirao2001 wrote: Majority of the rasikas, want to be with the celebrity of the times, identifying them self with success of the celebrity/star of the times. High profile/visibility/promotion/endorsement of the celebrity, is to be appreciated instantly, uncritically, to feel secure that their choice was right , not missing out and avoidance of being odd with the majority(crowd). Everything being offered by the celebrity, is simply accepted and for their own fortification of the satisfaction, and hailed as unique and unmatched. Factually, may not be correct. Who cares ?(in the crowd).
Only lesser percentage of rasikas, with their own knowledge(experience) of genuinely highly rich quality of the music, dare to be different and demanding.
Tangentially, there is a bit of a fad today of digging up willy-nilly obscure compositions and presenting them in concerts. While in many cases this is laudable, in some cases certain pieces were not performed by yesteryear musicians owing to lack of concert-worthiness, not ignorance.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Karthik: You are good at covering all angles in one sentence 'yes there are those kinds of people, but then there is the other kind'
(j/k)
Let me understand what you say then as "you do not like the either extremes of the curve and like to be in the main part of the curve. You also claim that the meaty of the curve is there for a reason and it is a measure of guaranteed quality. There may be quality at the extreme but there is a lack of certainty because it is not validated by the attendance of a lot of people." There is nothing wrong with that view point. Except your dim view of the people who like the extremes. ( as I wrote before, the bad quality of some, not all, AIR concerts is an example where I am with you completely. There is no feed back from the general public (voting with their ears) and decisions are made by some officials. But again AIR has been the greatest medium we have had in listening to CM for many decades and so we can not be too hard on them )
Let me understand what you say then as "you do not like the either extremes of the curve and like to be in the main part of the curve. You also claim that the meaty of the curve is there for a reason and it is a measure of guaranteed quality. There may be quality at the extreme but there is a lack of certainty because it is not validated by the attendance of a lot of people." There is nothing wrong with that view point. Except your dim view of the people who like the extremes. ( as I wrote before, the bad quality of some, not all, AIR concerts is an example where I am with you completely. There is no feed back from the general public (voting with their ears) and decisions are made by some officials. But again AIR has been the greatest medium we have had in listening to CM for many decades and so we can not be too hard on them )
See, that is not a tenable derivation. From what I understand Tiget Varadachariyar is an example of a man with a great message with a not so good medium. Taking a cue from you, I will say 'yes, there are those who produce noise but then there are those who deliver great message on a scratchy medium'. Knowing the difference is what an evolved rasika is about'. ( BTW, I do not claim to be an evolved rasika of CM. I am probably in the meaty part of the curve, probably skewed to the right a litte bit when the occasion demands it ).There are people who will claim to have Evolved Taste and can extract great messages from bad renditions. The fact is, we can make similar claims regarding factory noise; we get conditioned to that too over time...
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karthikbala
- Posts: 221
- Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 09:58
Tiger was well before my time, and the sole recording I have listened to (at a lecdem) was too noisy (audio quality) and he was obviously well-advanced in years at the time of recording to form a meaningful opinion. Listening to Sri SRJ talk about his genius was interesting nevertheless.vasanthakokilam wrote: From what I understand Tiget Varadachariyar is an example of a man with a great message with a not so good medium. Taking a cue from you, I will say 'yes, there are those who produce noise but then there are those who deliver great message on a scratchy medium'. Knowing the difference is what an evolved rasika is about'. ( BTW, I do not claim to be an evolved rasika of CM. I am probably in the meaty part of the curve, probably skewed to the right a litte bit when the occasion demands it ).
However, this reminds me of a Texaco Met-broadcast where the presenter played a recording and asked the panel of "experts" to identify the singer. The consensus was the "vintage" recording was probably that of a mediocre, nondescript soprano who was unidentifiable. Turned out it was a googly; the clip was actually a recording of the incomparable Birgit Nielsen (one of the great Wagnerian dramatic sopranos of the 20th century) with artificial surface noise and crackle added to make it sound "vintage" and chronologically misleading. Red-faces all round, and a telling example of how over-analysis of "scratchy" data is largely New Clothes for the Emperor
Last edited by karthikbala on 16 Jul 2009, 11:23, edited 1 time in total.
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mazhai
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 08 May 2009, 11:18
pls dont analyze all this...this is an expression that I've picked up from my parents and many others...they use it pretty frequently...I've tried to analyze....it went beyond my headarasi wrote:Another new expression in tamizh for me--pinniTTEL (as with a braid). What exactly does this mean? You are complimenting him. That much I can understand.
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mazhai
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 08 May 2009, 11:18
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
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mohan
- Posts: 2808
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52
Refer to the thread http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... hoice.htmlmazhai wrote:another reason: the audience find the atrist/ artiste 'cute'...ahem ahem...
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
Karthikbala
Good percentage of the rasikas and few critics complain that the musicians offers or continues to offer only the familiiar compositions and do not take the efforts to present new compositions or they do not have the skills for the presentation of rare and new compositions. The 'fad', as your pointed correctly, is the answer, taking up the challenge, show casing that skill, are the result of such demands, I have mentioned above. I wish to recall one interesting incident/ statement made by Great Maestro Chembai, in conversation with Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao, my father, reacting to the crticism of singing only limited no and often repeated compostions in his concerts - 'Oi Srinivasa Rao, imbadu keerthanams patam panni, anju laksham panniyachu-porum' (' Dear SSRao, with learning only fifty compositions, I have earned five lacs and this is sufficient' - implying achievement of success/popularity).
However, the musician(s) has to acquire wide repertoire, achieve mastery and offer rare/new compositions of merits -either of the quality of comparable standards of the Trinity, Kshetragna and few other great composers or compositions of excellence, becoming rich addition to the tradition in Music-CM.
Not offer for the sake of it/asking!
Good percentage of the rasikas and few critics complain that the musicians offers or continues to offer only the familiiar compositions and do not take the efforts to present new compositions or they do not have the skills for the presentation of rare and new compositions. The 'fad', as your pointed correctly, is the answer, taking up the challenge, show casing that skill, are the result of such demands, I have mentioned above. I wish to recall one interesting incident/ statement made by Great Maestro Chembai, in conversation with Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao, my father, reacting to the crticism of singing only limited no and often repeated compostions in his concerts - 'Oi Srinivasa Rao, imbadu keerthanams patam panni, anju laksham panniyachu-porum' (' Dear SSRao, with learning only fifty compositions, I have earned five lacs and this is sufficient' - implying achievement of success/popularity).
However, the musician(s) has to acquire wide repertoire, achieve mastery and offer rare/new compositions of merits -either of the quality of comparable standards of the Trinity, Kshetragna and few other great composers or compositions of excellence, becoming rich addition to the tradition in Music-CM.
Not offer for the sake of it/asking!
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
mazhi,nick.H./VKRaman
No doubt, the performer has to attract and help the listener to focus in performing arts. The good looking, magnetic and attractive performer, wins the initial battle/ bout. If the performer delivers sensual experience, delights and continues to attract, with greater tolerance for quality blemishes in the music, by the rasika/listener.
No doubt, the performer has to attract and help the listener to focus in performing arts. The good looking, magnetic and attractive performer, wins the initial battle/ bout. If the performer delivers sensual experience, delights and continues to attract, with greater tolerance for quality blemishes in the music, by the rasika/listener.
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35