Compositions that reflect contemporary themes.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 18 Nov 2008, 21:56

cmlover wrote:
By the by are there any takers to guess the raga? I thought VK/Arun/Suji/SR/... would try....

CMLover
I see the rAga gaurimanOhari is very close though I am not 100% sure. If gowrimanOhari is right, I am assuming you modelled this krithi with a very famous song sung by the famous thamizh playback singer TMS "pAttun naanE" of thirruvilayAdal movie . Incidentally that film song is sung as a tit for tat song after rama verma's favourite musician sings another no .

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Nov 2008, 22:32

CML, good work. I think you already outed the raga in another thread but I will try again when I have some time.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Nov 2008, 23:21

cmlover wrote:
By the by are there any takers to guess the raga? I thought VK/Arun/Suji/SR/... would try....

sounds candrakaunsish...
I'm pretty sure

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Nov 2008, 23:23

RAJESH
you are pretty hot, but not correct yet

it is a janya of gowri manOhari.
I will give some more time for others to listen too!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Nov 2008, 23:47

cmlover wrote: it is a janya of gowri manOhari.

then it must be candrakauns with D2... name no idea

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Nov 2008, 05:05

No!
But it is a HM based raga

Where is our wizard Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Nov 2008, 20:43

i cant guess it (besides it having gmanohari shades) - but based on circumstantial evidence, i would propose paTdIp

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Nov 2008, 20:55

I am on the paTdIp bandwagon too ( but not with an overwhelming conviction )

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 19 Nov 2008, 21:22

If it is Patdeep I like to render

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 19 Nov 2008, 21:25

it is patdip! the arohana and avarohana has been sung at the beginning isn't it? cml: that was very enjoyable, many thanks.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Nov 2008, 22:43

Yes it is Patdheep!
Ever since I heard your varNam I could not get my mind out of it. It is such a mesmerizing raga. There is a big discussion going on at sangitapriya about the nature of this raga...
I may not have lit the wick as Tansen did but I sure hope I did light the appreciation for Swati/Varmaji in the hearts of our Rasikas.

It was Fun!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Nov 2008, 22:55

Arun

In spite of the cicumstantial evidence and the clues I had strewn, did you have any 'intuition'

I could have left out the initial aro/avaro and would it have made a difference?
Coming back to the question of how we infer a raga from the melody of a song!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Nov 2008, 23:31

Actually the maharaja did compose (?) in PaTdheep. Listen to the fantastic song at
http://www.swathithirunal.in/htmlfile/22.htm

I wonder whether varmaji can confirm that it is the original of Maharaja or tuned by somebody including himself...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Nov 2008, 23:47

This is what I love most about guessing a rAgA. As Arun says, it feels good to know the name of a rAgA when others are whispering, gesturing to others to know the name. But there it stops. If the performance is good, I start enjoying it.
Even if I don't have any clue, I am pleased if the singing/playing is good.
There are moments when I care two hoots about knowing the name. Agonizing over getting the name of a rAgA right is something I don't care for. I do think about the rAgAs it resembles. When I find out the name later, I try to associate it with the song I heard and file it away.

CML,
On hearing your song, the first name that came to me was paTdIp, but then again, I had recently heard a fantastic paTdIp and chided myself since all I was thinking of was paTdIp, the rAgA still swimming in my head. Yes, Nandagopal's composition is delightful. And of course, bravo to another star (sun?) rising in the land of maNipravALam...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Nov 2008, 03:15

cmlover wrote:Arun

In spite of the cicumstantial evidence and the clues I had strewn, did you have any 'intuition'
I could have left out the initial aro/avaro and would it have made a difference?
Coming back to the question of how we infer a raga from the melody of a song!

Actually I peeked at other guesses beforehand. But on hearing. I think I would not have leaned towards paTdIp without aro/avaro (even with it, I was not sure - because of below).

While shades of gowrimanohari are discernible what I could not sense was the unique, and by nature a tad-strong whiff of udayaravichandrika (i.e. p n3 s - more common in film songs). Now, if it were there along with gowrimanohari, I would made a strong guess for paTdIp. If the "n3" had been highlighted more, in-tandem with ga (i.e. both prominent), and that it would have been easier.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Nov 2008, 06:04

Arasi

If one is totally an ignoramus in CM then he/she would simply enjoy without worrying about raga/tala. It is the issue of ' a little knowledge being the dangerous thing'! Then every melody engenders a tension in you and your mind races to identify the ragam and sometimes you want to know the vaggeyakara too! I had once a CM Fanatic friend who would call me at odd times and hum tunes/songs asking me to identify the raga. That simply ruins my day since I keep thinking about it for the whole day. But then when the answer dawns it is sheer delight like solving a mathematical puzzle. My neurologist son reassures me that at my age it is a worthwhile past time. 'A raga a day keeps the Alzheimer away'

Arun

You are too advanced with a native skill that can tease out the 22 shrutis

I wonder whether (ordinarily) one tries to guess the MeLam before arriving at the raga. Teach me a tone-deaf person if there is a simple way of guessing the mELam. Try as I could, I have difficulty even distinguishing between suddha and prati madhyamam let alone trying to identify varaaLi madhyamam! VK and Suji are far advanced in that respect!

Nandagopal

I owe it to you for developing the taste for paTdheep. Way back I got interested in HM after hearing 'man tadapat hari darshan ko aaj' from Baiju Bawra. Do please educate us on more of the HM ragas which may be distinctly different from the commonly known CM ragas. As CM folks get to know more of them and perceive the melody more vaggeyakaras (e.g., Arasi, Ramraj..) will start composing songs. I was blown away by sanjay's RTP in patdheep. I am sure our versatile performers will pay attention to HM melodies and 'carnatify' them and thus infusing new blood in traditional CM. In that context I applaud varmaji for focussing on the HM compositions of Swati and his approach is delightful and unique!

VKRaman

I encourage you to try some of the bhajans in HM ragas and paTdheep will be a good starter!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 Nov 2008, 06:14

Here is a starter PaTdheep which I recorded today and published in my website:
http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=1176912&t=696

Here is one another HM raagam:
http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=1169813&t=4007
http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=1166196&t=1835

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Nov 2008, 07:12

Good start!
I just heard the paTdheep and liked it. Good to have the lyric to follow it along. Will listen to the others later...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Nov 2008, 07:45

The 'hari bOlO..' is reminiscent of our nATTupuRa paaDal (country folks songs) which are usually puunnagavarali/chencurutti based. This sounds different from either. Do you know the raga of the genre?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Nov 2008, 11:12

I have difficulty even distinguishing between suddha and prati madhyamam let alone trying to identify varaaLi madhyamam! VK and Suji are far advanced in that respect!

CML, my way is not through identifying the mELam or anything like that. I am very poor at swara identification. For ragas that I have a good conception of, it is probably through pattern matching but not very consciously. If it is some thing that sounds familiar but I can not quite get it, I sort of go through a process of elimination. Here I do consider if it sounds like a pratimadyama raga or not. I sort of have an idea on how a pradimadyama ragas sounds but it is not a precise thing. But once I feel it is not a Prathi madhyama raga, I sort of look at anchor points. Is it around Shankaranbharanam, HK area, or Mayamalawagowla area or Kharaharapriya area or Thodi area. To be sure, this is much more hazy search than a mELa based search. Majority of the ragas center around these 4 areas and thinking about them sometimes triggers something which helps in identifying the raga.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 Nov 2008, 20:04

Here are some more HM raaga songs, but I do not know the raaga name for Hari Bolo as I imagined and dreamt that this song was sung by Kabir sitting in a boat and used my raagam to suit that imagination:
http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=1080379&t=3466
http://www.acidplanet.com/components/em ... 573&T=6481
http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=1039301&t=2791
http://www.acidplanet.com/components/em ... 5766&T=987

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Nov 2008, 20:39

VKRaman
Just heard your 'smaravaram' which is labelled Bahudari. You rendering sounds very clearly Tilang.
Chaliye kunjan is Brindavani...
VK
This is somewhat like your 'quadrant algorithm' which is worth trying. First get to know selected melams (e.g., todi, MMG, Kh, HK, S, Chalanattai, Kalyani..) etc and try to match the melody close to one of them. Then do a more pointed search to pin down the raga within the subset. This process eliminates a lot of ineligible ragas and will let us focus on a small subset! That will be much easier than trying to acquire subtle svaragnaanam (ala Arun). Let me outline the steps.

1. Familiarise yourself with some selected melams (prominant ones) by listening to a number of well known kritis in them. Thus internalize the svara patterns charachteristic of the selected melams

2. Listen to the new song without any preconception and mentally try to match with one of the melams. This will still be a broad range.

3. now let the mind work on the familiar ragas within that category.

If you don't get it then it is a new raga!

You perhaps can improve the algorithm...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Nov 2008, 22:20

CML, You described it well. That is pretty much the steps I go through in a 'fuzzy' way for ragas I am not very familiar with.

As an addition, there are also some sub-component commonness. The Dorian Tetrachord, which is the purvanga of Kharaharapriya has a very distinctive flavor, especially the way that 'Ga' is executed in CM. ( more like R M oscillation ). That is a quick clue to get to that neighborhood.

Shree · Post by **Shree** » 21 Nov 2008, 12:15

This is Varmaji's Soorya concert's video.
I got this link from his orkut community.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9w1mOhkOwM

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Nov 2008, 22:33

Nice chkaravakam or is it Ahir bhairavi?
whose composition? Lyric available?

devi · Post by **devi** » 21 Nov 2008, 22:40

CM Lover Sir, this is a composition about Sri Raghavendra Theertha Swami by Sri Jagannatha Dasaru in Ahir Bhairav.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Nov 2008, 23:46

Thanks

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 22 Nov 2008, 21:52

CML,

I just saw your composition this morning. Very nicely done, and with good details in the sahitya. Patdeep was nicely presented.

I also appreciate your selection of "manipravalam" for the sahitya. Regarding "manipravalam", I have always been a little confused. Most Tyagaraja and Shastri compositions are in heavily "Sanskritized" Telugu anyway, i.e. large number of Sanskrit nouns/adjectives but most verbs in Telugu. But nobody calls them "manipravalam". The "manipravalam" term seems to be used mainly for a very "Sanskritized" Malayalam (and also Tamil to some extent).

In my limited experience, perhaps what distinguishes "manipravalam" from "Sanskritized" Telugu/Kannada is that in addition to nouns and adjectives, many pronouns and indeclinables are also in Sanskrit, and most significantly almost all verb roots are also Sanskrit (only the verb endings are not), e.g. "janicchu", "udbhavichhu" etc. Is there an "official" grammar of "manipravalam", i.e. are there specific rules on how to join together the two (or more) languages ? Or is it a fluid/flexible grammar which is easily understood by context ?

Also, the "manipravalam" composition "Venkatachalapate" of MD seems more like Sanskritized telugu/tamil. He has separate lines of Tel/Skt/Tam and moves smoothly from one language to the other. The"Shri Abhayamba" is more manipravalam-like but still doesn't give the full impression of being so. The "true manipravalam", I think, is seen in the Sanskrit-Malayalam admixture of the type that ST/I.Tampi etc presented and which you have also used here. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Best Wishes,
SR

PS: Thanks for continuiing the thread! I will be back soon.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Nov 2008, 04:34

Dear SR
Thanks for the comments and appreciation. The following ref gives some info about Manipravalam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipravalam
which may partly answer your queries.
In my opinion it is a language essentially developed by the namboodris of kerla. Their mother tongue used to be sanskrit and they developed manipravala to communicate with locals. Except for the grammatical vagaries which you alluded to it is at times indistinguishable from sanskrit. Among the southern languages malayalam blends seamlessly with sanskrit. It is even better than prakritam! In CM swati is the outstanding expert in compositions in manipravalam whereas those of the Trinity is simple tokenism. It is unfortunate that later vaggeyakaras did not realize its potential for CM.

If possible you should also compose pieces in Manipravalam. I use for my grammatical guide:
Mani Dipika by Rajaraja Varma (1910 publication)
I enjoy kunjan nambiar's thullal very much and hence the language is quite alive for me.

I eagerly look forward to your new compositions...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jun 2009, 01:07

It is quite some time we had any activity in the contemporary themes section.
We have had some discussions in
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... aries.html
wherein we discussed the participation of Islam and Christianity in the progress and evolution of CM. To push the envelope further and beyond I am adding:

An Ode to Atheism

Language: Tamil Raga: you guess it ThaaLam: Rupakam

Pallavi
iRaivan illayE... manithaa

Anupallavi
iRaivan irunthaal innalkaL irukkumO..
iDumbayum pakayum iDarkaLum irukkumO..

CharaNaM
kallinuL thErayuM karuppai uyirayum..
kAtthu rakShippavan iRaivan enRAl
nallavar vADavum thIyavar vAzhavum
pArtthu rasipppathum avananRO..

pArppathum avanalla.. kAppathum avanalla..
pakutthaRivAlE nukarnthaRivAy manithA..

For those who may like an audio here is an imperfect one

http://www.sendspace.com/file/pjklq9
so that you can try to guess 'my' raga

For those on the opposite camp I refer you to the excellent poems by our Arasi
'avaLkaLum avankaLum athuvum ...'

If you need a translation of my lyric please request 'Shankar'...

Forgive my audacity oh God! if you are there.. but if you are not there, then I don't care
..but CM can have Gods of all kind as well as no God

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 17 Jun 2009, 02:07

It is ragam revathi, I guess. Good rendition CMLover Sir!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jun 2009, 02:24

nopes! 'tis not Revathi

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jun 2009, 08:20

Good job, CML! Sindhubhairavi, to my ears. I started humming it in jOnpuri and then in kAmbhOji as I read it. Then of course, I heard you sing it.
The rhythm of your concluding words sounded almost like: forgive us our trespasses...

So many shades to your song. I see your stepping out of your thoughts to accommodate others too!

Thanks for mentioning my book. You act as my PR person without any percentage! The book is but a whisper in a roaring world of
bestsellers...kiNaTRil kal sounds like an apt epilogue for it

Sangit Rasik has not brought us a song in a long while. Anyway, glad that you revived this thread. Punarvasu, chalanata and others may join in...

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 17 Jun 2009, 09:02

@ cmlover

hamsAnandi?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jun 2009, 15:06

Arasi;
I do not have to promote your book!
inipponRu vaithtaal eRumbai vAvenRu azhaithalum vENDumO?
I am just the scouting ant who simply points out its existance !

None of the ragas mentioned so far! Let me just say that it is a 'rare' yet very beautiful raga (LakShman will have to confirm

) as the Trinity never composed in it!

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 17 Jun 2009, 19:13

Is it a CM rAgA?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jun 2009, 19:31

Good one CML. I listened to the song before reading the lyrics.

I first thought the song is from the point of view of God.

I interpreted it as God decrying people's delusional views of Him, who or what He is, what He is about and His purported meddling in people's lives.

God is the world's first atheist.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jun 2009, 19:54

Excellent poem. The last para says it all. Is this arasi's? I am not 100% sure based on conversation above.

On a philosophical note, "iRai irundAl innalgaL irukkAdu" (if there is God, there wont be any suffering) - this assumes we tend to completely associate innalgaL with the bad things that happen, and thus God has a "pre-emptor" of bad things (thus the archanas, prayers etc. etc. that most of us do). But all things "are what they are". Whether something causes pain (or less idealistically lasting pain and scars), or suffering completely depends on how strong our mind is, our inner strength. So iRai is anything that allows you to become strong enough - it need not be religious, it need not even be spiritual. So to me, the last para says it all.

raga - no idea, although to me it looks like mela 45 (which it is not as per cml's clue) or derivatives or it, or near it.

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jun 2009, 20:53

See the layers! The 'seen' layers,
and more to see, I am sure!

V. Kokilam's 'God is the world's (?!) first atheist and
Arun's iRai is anything which makes you become strong (the source of inner strength) are points to ponder...
No, Arun, I don't even claim co-authorship with this poem. It is all CML's.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 17 Jun 2009, 21:10

cml,
If at all you did not give the clue , I would have gone for kumudakriyA.
With your clue that trinity has not composed since we have atleast one famous kumudakriyA by MD , I will make a calculated guess that it is nAmanArayani.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jun 2009, 21:37

ok thanks arasi. CML - excellent job.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jun 2009, 22:02

Lakshman
It is a CM raga (though it was imported from HM) with very limited compositions (to my knowledge); even LGJ has composed (which is a very big clue for you

I will hold out to give a try for a few others!

VK

God is the world's first atheist.

is a great quotation which must pass into the books.
The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad has an elaborate mind-blowing discussion of the issue. Yet again it is the quintessence of the discussions in Rig veda's nAsadIya suktam (RV 10.129) which terminates with the telling indeterminacy:
sO a^Nga vEda yadi vA na vEda ( Maybe He knows; Maybe He knows not)

Arun
I alone am guilty

Arasi is totally innocent

But I have to congratulate her impartiality in thinking of 'Him' as 'It' rather than as 'Her'

In spite of being an excellent quizmaster I don't think you have any special adantage here as I think (maybe I am wrong) your exposure to HM is limited

Actually this lyric and line of thought was triggered by Cho's EngE brahmaNan episodes as I find many of his explanations and line of thought are in synch with my own!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Jun 2009, 23:54

cmlover wrote:
CharaNaM

nallavar vADavum thIyavar vAzhavum
pArtthu rasipppathum avananRO

Nice composition, CML!

However, I wonder when the concept that 'God=benevolence alone' came into being? Because, if that concept is rejected, then, the fact that there is suffering can't be pointed to as evidence that God doesn't exist...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Jun 2009, 00:49

Shankar
Point noted. In the name of benevolence thousands of rupees and even food are wasted which could benefit humanity! BharathydAsan rightly asked oorellAm kOilkaL En?
In fact kabila's sAnkhya philosophy which dates back to vedic times emphasizes nirIshvara vAda!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Jun 2009, 00:57

cml, were you trying out in pahADi ?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Jun 2009, 01:04

No! Suji. But that was one raga I wanted to play with..

You folks may have heard this raga with one of Purandara's famous composition

..and of course the raga has been discussed at the Forum!

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 18 Jun 2009, 02:42

The rAgA is durgA.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Jun 2009, 04:49

Lakshman Got it Bang!
Do you have a list of kritis in Durga?

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 18 Jun 2009, 05:01

Songs in Durga:

Adigaka nijamatam batikaga yajagam batikaka-Adi-Annamacharya
Allide summane illi hode summane-Adi-Purandaradasa
Annai tandai-Adi-N.S.Chidambaram
Avashiyam un vendi palakalum arivinurndu andu (tp)-C/Jhampa-Arunagirinathar
Bare gopibalaka-Adi-Purandaradasa
Dasara nindisa beda manuja haridasara-Adi-Purandaradasa
Dharma shravana videtake murkhage-Adi-Purandaradasa
Dikkatra ennai tirumbi partarul dinadayapari-Rupaka-Lakshmi Krishna
Bhavani-Adi-Kollegal R.Subramaniam
Durita nibhedana-Adi-V.Subramaniam
En shirippadellai pappa un idazhukku potta-Rupaka-Kalaikkuttan
Gananatha sadguruve-Adi-Kumbakonam T.P.Kailasam
Gayati vanamali madhuram-Adi-Sadashiva Brahmendra
I muddukrishnana-T/Eka-Vadirajasvami
Ide nodi- -Dadra-Mahapatidas
Jai jai devi jai jai janani jai jai sarasvati mayi-Adi-Svati Tirunal
Karuniso-Adi-R.N.Doresvami
Manda matiyo nanu madana janakanu ninu kundugala-K/Chapu-Purandaradasa
Manikanthane ayyappane malaigalil siranda-Rupaka-Rukmini Ramani
Mohana murali lolam-Triputa-Raghavendrasvami
Nahin chodo- -Adi-Bangalore S.Mukund
Nal irandidazhale koliya jnalam undaga (tp)-Anga-Arunagirinathar
Nambikkai kondom-Chapu-Shivaranjani
Niraja nayana-Adi-V.Subramaniam
Parvati parandamavati-T/Triputa-V.V.Shrivatsa
Ramam bhaje shyamam manasa ramam bhaje-Adi-Dayananda Sarasvati
Shikhara damaniya meru rajata giri nila (tp)- -K/Chapu-Arunagirinathar
Shri rama rama- -Trital-Mahapatidas
Shrutiyai iyalayiyal nidiya toghudiyai veghuvai (tp)-Anga-Arunagirinathar
Tanjam nan adainden-Adi-V.Subramaniam
Tedudarkku aridana navamani azhuttiyidu (tp)-K/Chapu-Arunagirinathar
Tillana-?-Lalgudi Jayaraman
Uruvai evarkku ninaivaridai anaittulagum (tp)-K/Chapu-Arunagirinathar
Vara siddhi vinayakam-Rupaka-A.V.Krishnamachar
Vara venum enakkuvuvai kuyile vadivelanai-Adi-K.S.Krishnamurti

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Jun 2009, 05:14

Is this the same durga that shares the scale of suddha-saveri ?????

Arun