Repeating sangatis

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 08 May 2006, 15:54

Note from Admin: This topic is a split from another thread which has subsequently been deleted.

<<even if it sounds humorous to you, cacophony or rather abhaswaram is something that needs a smile and something that needs to be taken in the right spirit>>

When the Boston Symphony played an Avant-garde composition which repeats a single chord endlessly, someone in the balcony shouted “Stop ! I’ll confess !! “
Source -Readers Digest of the 60s.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 May 2006, 21:29

ha ha coolkarni!

let me carNaaTify the joke (which may even be true)!

The artiste was singing the pallavi
'enna thavam seithanai! yashOdA..'
too many times

The young kid asked - rather loudly..
'amma! avarukenna paithiyam! thirumba thirumba SonnathayE SollaRaar'

(mom! Is he crazy why is he saying the same thing over and over!)

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 16 May 2006, 22:01

(mom! Is he crazy why is he saying the same thing over and over!)

Very funny

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 17 May 2006, 13:23

i once went to a bhratanatyam recital..
the carnatic vocalist singing was doing what u just described.. repating the same line again and again.. i got bored and left

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 May 2006, 18:49

VJ,
It is common to sing several sangatIs, and many over and over to give the dancer the opportunity for what is called sanchAri (abhinaya) - if I am wrong, please correct me - there are 2 types of abhinaya as I understand it: sthAyi i.e. literal interprettation of the lyrics, and sanchari where to the 'drone' of a few repeated lines, the dancer sketches out a small story related to the main story line: for instance, in the dAsa kriti jagadOdhAraNA, the first time the singer sings 'tAyigE bAyalli jagavannu...', it will be a literal interprettaion with the open mouth, but on occassion, this line is repeated, and the dancer may show krishNa playing in the mud, loooking around to see if anyone was watching him, then taking a handful and swallowing it, yashOdA observing the last part of this, and pleading with him to open his mouth, his refusal, and then, giving in reluctantly, when he opens his mouth, she sees the 14 worlds and swoons.....A similar scenario can be used for OVK's tAyE yashOdA to the lines 'maindan ivanE yenru vAri maDi mEl vaitu sundara mukhatai pArkkum vELaiyil vAi tirandu indrajAlam pOl IrEzhu lOkaNgaLum kATTinAnDI'
Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 17 May 2006, 19:50

Ravi
Thanks for that nice wee explanation...

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 18 May 2006, 05:17

Then the singer I heard was bad (this was a local seattle arangetram with local amateur talents performing)

the singer didnt have any variations or emotions, he kept repeating and repeating..
I was helping with the sound that day.. i didnt leave, we just put on a tamil movie on the DVD player in the control room and started watching it

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 18 May 2006, 05:42

Good explanation Ravi.

VJ - experienced singers for dance will give variations (ie sing neraval) while the dancer is doing sanchari instead of just repeating over and over.

Another explanation ... since it was an arangetram, the dancer would have been inexperienced also and hence the dance teacher may have instructed the singer to just sing the same line otherwise the student may have got confused!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 06:04

Shankar

That gives a superb insight into the innards of CM in the context of bharatanATyam. Even if there was no story line a good dance can with variations in the aDavu sustain a few repetitions!

By the by did I tell you the story of the record-dancer who practically swooned dancing to the same line due to the error on the phonograph

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 18 May 2006, 06:43

CML,
LOL!

Typically, adavUs (or a combination of them) are used with swara passages, or jatIs, and not when a sAhitya line is repeated.
I have watched Dr. Padma Subramaniam several times, when the late Smt. Syamala Balakrishnan (her SIS) would sing for her: the communication between them was almost telepathic, except for very small signs, when Dr. Padma would indicate to the singer to 'move on' so to speak...

Then there was the case of a caucasian Odissi dancer who performed here a few years back: her vocal support was an old man who had difficulty reading the lyrics in front of him. One of her pieces was jayadEva's dasAvatAra piece: the man got confused and repeated the parashurAmAvatAr twice, but since the dancer was either not paying attention, or because she was too addled, she went on to rAmAvatAr! It was hilarious, but she finally caught on....
Ravi

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 18 May 2006, 08:28

Vishnampettai
here is something to make you forget that experience.

http://rapidshare.de/files/20731772/dan ... 1.mp3.html

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 18 May 2006, 08:34

Kulkarni sa'ab,
Is this kuchipudi or bharatanAtyam music? Sounds like the former.
Ravi

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 18 May 2006, 08:39

No.It is bharata natyam

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 18 May 2006, 09:08

^^ whats the difference between kuchipudi and BN music?
I know difference between khathak and BN music

, khathak you sing HM, and you are not allowed to bend your knees, BN you sing CM and u gotto bend your knees. But i dont know difference between Kuchipudi and BN music.. or for that matter even the dance.

koolkarni: the rapdishare link is not loading.. dunno why will try after sometime.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 18 May 2006, 13:59

VJ
Kuchipudi is the dance of Andhra, whereas BN from Tamil nadu.

I dont know about the differences between singing styles...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 20:59

Kiran

kuchipudi was primarily for men according to its origin! (am I right?)

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 18 May 2006, 21:02

CML
True, it was mainly created/designed for men, though women are equally good at it..

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 18 May 2006, 21:49

Pardon this long ramble, and please correct me if I have any of my facts/theories wrong. I have put this together with observations and reading for the past several years.

Almost every state/region in India has it's own form of classical dance form, some more than one. While the SNA recognizes some, not all are designated as 'classical':
Some examples:
TN, Karnataka and Maharashtra (the areas ruled by the nAyaks): bharatanATyam (previously called kUttu, sadir, dAsiAttam etc.)

AP:
kuchipidi
vilAsini nrittyam
AndhrA nATyam

Kerala:
kathakaLI
mOhiniATTam
nangaiyar kUttu
and possibly more (OTTanthuLLal, kaLarI, other varieties of kUttu etc...)

Orissa:
odissI
sATTrIya

Bengal:
gauDiya nritya

NE/Manipur:
maNipurI
chchau and it's varieties

Northern India:
kathak

Most of the classical dance forms are danced to music with lyrics either in the regional language or sanskrit, except for bharatanATyam, where dancers have been dancing to songs with lyrics in hindi, bengali, gujrAtI (there is a kuravanjI composed in gujrAtI), and marATI, in addition to tamizh, kannadA, telugu and sanskrit. The style of music varies according to the region. bharatanATyam and kuchipidi use CM based music, and kathak, HM based music. The music for odissI is a separate kind and I have heard that there is a movement afoot to declare this kind of music the third classical music form of India, in addition to HM and CM. mOhiniAttam dancers typically use sOpAnam music (evolved in kEraLA from CM to sing jayadEva's compositions)...and so on. I think gauDiya nritya uses rabIndra sangIt mainly.

All of Indias classical art forms can trace their origins to the nAtya shAstra of bharata munI, and not just bharatanATyam. If evidence from temple sculptures is to be believed, then, up until the 14th century, the main position for all forms of Indian Dance was the ardhamanDalI (heels together, knees bent and turned outwards, and thighs facing forward), but after that different positions evolved - upright stance of kathak, the chaukA of odissI etc. Currently, this position is most evident in bharatanATyam. Not all schools give equal emphasis to this posture. The kalAkshEtrA style, the pandanallUr style (the janakA of the kalAkshEtra style) IMO seem to be particualr about this.

Now, kuchipidi refers to a village in AP where the men: boys mainly, who were taught this dance form in strict secrecy. Their purpose was to dance to the stories of krishNa and his divine lIlA's (hence the popularity of bhAmA kalApam). Some of the boys danced in female garbs and as one can imagine these were 'group' productions. Solo kuchipidi is an evolution of the modern era (just like the concept of bharatanATyam dance dramas - other than the kuravanjIs - were an evolution of RDA's imagination). I think Yamini Krishnamurthi was the first woman to learn kuchipidi (occured at at kalAkshetrA).
I think that the difference between kuchipidi and bharatanATyam lie in small details: In kuchipidi, most of the songs are in telugu, and are very fast (much faster than bharatanATyam songs/dances usually). mOhanam is a frequenly heard rAgam. As far as the dance goes, the ardhamanDalI/araimanDI is not very pronounced (as my daughter would put it, it is more of a 'kAlmanDI'), the adavU's are slightly different (possibly simpler because young boys with all of their inherent inattentiveness had to learn it? :cheesy:), and to my untutored eye always appear less complete. The current mArgam for a solo kuchipidi recital has been a creation of the last few decades, while, for bharatanATyam (always meant for solo performances), it was laid down by the tanjAvUr quartette (MD came to tanjAvUr to teach them music, and during his stay there, composed so many songs on the local deities). Thus, for bharatanATaym, the orderly progression from an alArippU, to a jatiswaram, and then to a sabdam, and then the centerpiece, the varNam, followed by padams, and concluding with the 'mangaLa(h)AratI' of the tillAnA is a logical sequence of incremenatlly increasing demands on the dancers skills. I am not aware of a similar mArgam in kuchipidi.

Anyway, thank you for allowing me to ramble. This should probably be in the dance forum, but for now, I will leave it here, because overall, I think I have responded to VJ's question.
Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 18 May 2006, 22:31

Ravi
Thanks for that very informative post. It was not a ramble at all..
Though my family was from Andhra I dont know most of the things about kuchipudi the way you do..
Cheers

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 23:30

Thank you Shankar for that capsule summary. I just wanted to add thar 'kuchipuDi' was the sole territory of 'brahmin' males. Of course it has now evolved and women do a superb job and I think caste is no longer a barrier!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 May 2006, 00:08

CML,
Yes: in the case of bharatanATyam, it went from being the exclusive preserve of isai vELALars to others; in kuchipidi, it went from brahmin boys to others...
I think kathak was also the preserve of itinerant brahmin men and women who went from village to village singing and dancing the praises of the divine krishNA and his beautiful rAdhA (kathaka = katha jO sunAyE - hence the name 'kathak' for this dance form). So, like maNipurI, this form was based on krishNa lIlA with lots of chED chAD and ras originally. But, with the advent of the mughal rule, the rAjnartakI's had to dance to ghazals, and just plain bOls and 'mughlAI kathak' evolved - with it's breathtaking pirouettes and lighting fast footwork with complex mathematical patterns, and the whole concept of 'sawAl jawAb' with the tabElchI etc...Current kathak, I think, is a beautiful combination of all that was good in both versions.
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 May 2006, 00:11

Good post Ravi. You have left out yakShgAna in the list. It is a dance form from coastal karNATaka and has similaritis to kathakkaLi.

And you are right about bharatanATya. It is a poplular fallacy that bharatanATya is from T.Nadu. You have put that in perspective. The hoysaLa queen SAntalA (Consort of viShNuvardhana or biTTidEva) is a celebrated danseuse. It is believed that she was the inspiration for all the exquisite sculptures of dance poses in bElUru(the world-renowned SilAbAlikes or madanikes).

And I may have mentioned this before, the earliest use of the term "bharata nATya" ever is by purandaradAsaru in the popular kRti "ADidano ranga" in Arabhi. He says

rambhe UrvaSi ramaNiyarellaru |
cendadim bharatanATyava naTise ||

meena · Post by **meena** » 19 May 2006, 00:22

shankar

nicely done.

here is a site that explains it all:

http://www.kuchipudi.com/home.cfm

http://www.kuchipudi.com/htmlfiles/faqs.htm
http://www.kuchipudi.com/htmlfiles/faqs1.htm

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 May 2006, 01:25

DRS,
I thought purandara dAsa mentioned bharatanATyagaLU (in plural), which lead me to assume that there were more than one variety of dance that was called bharatanATyam.

nAtyarANi shAntaLA was the name of a serial (26 episodes) that was produced/directed by Sri G.V Iyer (the same one who made the first and only sanskrit film in India - shankarAchArya - a bio of Adi shankarA), and broadcast on Bangalore DD...if any of you can lay your hands on a copy of the episodes from that serial, I shall be eternally grateful. I have been looking for it for ages.

Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 May 2006, 01:29

Ravi
In the song, it is definitely not in plural. G.V.Iyer was indeed a pioneer and made several remarkable movies in kannaDa and sanskrit(SankarAcArya, madhvAcArya, mahAbhArata).

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 May 2006, 01:34

DRS,
I did not mention yakshagAna and mElattUr bhAgavata mELA to keep it simple. I think bayalATTa desrves mention too. Likewise, I left out several complex art forms from Kerala..my list was by no means exhaustive.
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 May 2006, 01:37

yakShagAna is a semi-classical form. As you mentioned kathakkaLi, I thought it fit to mention yakShagAna as well. The other one you mentioned now is bayalATa(Not -TTa)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 May 2006, 02:20

OOPS..I did not edit that one...
Thanks.
Ravi

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 19 May 2006, 05:20

Going back a few posts ... I too thought the music was for Kuchupudi not Bharatanatyam - probably because it was in Telugu. I have heard a similar song set in the same tune for Bharatanatyam in a different language (I think sanskrit).

As Ravi clearly states, however, Bharatanatyam music spans a number of langauges.

One feature I have noticed in Kuchupudi is that the dancer often mimes the words of the song as he/she dances.

Most of this discussion needs to be moved to the Dance section.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 19 May 2006, 13:44

oolkarni: the rapdishare link is not loading.. dunno why will try after sometime.

I hope you were able to do it.
the second half of this track has a beautiful Khamboji and kalyani-Good enough to change your impression about bharatanatyam singers

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 19 May 2006, 13:56

yea i downloaded just now. l am listening. its much better, your r right second half is cool.. once i again i noticed that the violin is out of sync timing wise and also a bit abhaswaram, I notice this a lot in CM. why is that?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Jun 2006, 13:20

A very interesting and informative "ramble". Thank you.

I find the distinctive music of Kathakali very interesting.

I'm afraid I'm just a philistine where bharatanatyam is concerned: I hate that bum-out-one-way--chest-out-the-other way contortion. Most unnatural.

All because the 'ideal woman' to a certain generation of sculptors had a huge backside and a huge chest!

A bit like a sort of ancient Laura Crofts (is that the right name?) thing.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Jun 2006, 22:46

I'm afraid I'm just a philistine where bharatanatyam is concerned: I hate that bum-out-one-way--chest-out-the-other way contortion. Most unnatural.
All because the 'ideal woman' to a certain generation of sculptors had a huge backside and a huge chest!

Nick,
I cannot but disagree with you here! The butt-out-one-way, chest-out-the-other is a position that is adopted only by dancers who have NOT understood the kinesiology of the 'ardhamanDalI'. I call it the 'potty training' stance and not proper bharatanATyam...

When positioned properly, there is no jutting of any body part, and it is a very esthetically pleasing position, and the only one that will allow the execution of the 'aDavUs' properly. I have been told that when properly executed, it is also a very stable position.

The nATya shastra actually defines the attributes of a dancer, and being top/bottom heavy is not listed!

Ravi

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Jun 2006, 21:42

I'm very pleased you disagree.

And very sad that so many teachers dancers seem to think that this contortion is necessary.

I bet it causes spine problems in later life.

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 02 Jul 2006, 05:29

aint dance just a mating ritual? so whats the fuss.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Jul 2006, 05:47

Is that indeed true? Can you cite some references in case you read that anywhere? ( other than any freudian style psychobabble

).

Contemporarily, it is an art form that kids from the age of 6 onwards learn. So it is a pure art form without having to interpret it in any other context.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Jul 2006, 06:12

What J says is true in the insect world as also in the animal kingdom! Anthropologists support the view based on some African Tribes. However it may not be applicable to Indian dance

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Jul 2006, 07:05

Yes, that is what I thought. Sometimes a dance is just a dance!!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Jul 2006, 08:51

Nick,
All art has its share of stylistic expression. Some of it is very pleasing to the eye (I find William Morris and some of Georgia O'keefe's paintings and a good Kathakali performance very agreeable--all stylistic). When the stylistic side of Bharatha natyam, Kuchipudi or whatever is taken to extremes, lacking grace--expression without content, as in the case of any insensitive 'thayyA takkA' dancer, your point is valid. Believe me, I am not a great fan of dance. Nor do I go to many dance performances. Yet, I am moved by the beauty of the art when it is communicated by an excellent artist.
One reason for my not being passionate about dance could be that as a child, I had seen Balasaraswathi dance a few times--no glamor, not a beauty, but her stances, stillness, facial expressions and body language mesmerized me. Her performances are etched in my mind. That's why I suppose I have not been an avid fan of dance all these years (sub-consciously perhaps, I won't settle for less?)

ikeshav · Post by **ikeshav** » 04 Oct 2009, 04:45

raviji

do you have any audio for dashavatara shabdam? looking around for a good audio to set a bharatnatyam dance for my daughter.If you could give an audio link, would be grateful.