Change of Gurus

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 04 Apr 2009, 10:36

Dear all,
My son is learning violin for the last few years ( almost 7 years). He has learned about 8 keerthanams so far.
The story of 7 years learning. Initially we started with a teacher who is not a professional but learned violin in her early days taught my son for about 2 1/2 years. Then due to her daughter's marriage, she was travelling to US etc.. my sons classes got discontinued. Again I tried through a violinst at Shanmukhananda (Mumbai, where I was staying till January this year) which did not work out. Then in Navi Mumbai, he went to another teacher who was a very old lady who taught him for some time.

Finally for the last one half years he was going to a person known as Mr.S.V.Ramachandran, at Mumbai who is an AIR 'A' grade artist. My son got few prizes in Mumbai recently in compettions.

Now the story, we moved to chennai and we stay at Mandaveli. We went to a very famous violinst, requesting to teach my son. The violinst is telling my son's playing is bad. Finger position is not alright. He has to start from keerthanam. The discussion point "Is changing guru has so much of effect or the school of teaching is so different.."
Request all your inputs

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 04 Apr 2009, 13:14

Vganesh, get a second consultation from another vidwan!

endaroo · Post by **endaroo** » 05 Apr 2009, 08:05

We can select a good teacher who can teach properly

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2009, 08:09

Quality of playing is different from styles. if your son is well trained in one bani and if he would go to another bani teacher probably he would say that You should put your son in the correspondng bani rather than correcting the whole method. As bilahari said you can take him to another vidwan for a second opinion. When I changed guru I had already learnt some 25 keerthanams and I could play raaga. none the less i started from sarali varisai. But the adjustment and brushing up was over in 2 to 3 classes and I moved on to keerthanam and the teacher started teaching me keerthanams from the 4 class onwards. This starting from sarali varisai can be for some amendments and for you and for his reassurance to check if the whole thing learn so far has gone well.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 Apr 2009, 11:45

Yes, with the violin it does make a difference. But starting from keertanam? Did you mean starting from saraLi varisai? Well, like ganesh_mourthy says, it most probably will become all right quite soon.

Basically there are two options: go to another guru from the same bani (you may want to ask Vidwan S V Ramachandran for someone such in Chennai), or if you really like some other bani, you can put up with those few extra classes in the beginning. It really shouldn't take too long.

I wonder who this very famous violinist is, you can perhaps send a forum email.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Apr 2009, 12:18

My cousin in SIFAS (Singapore Indian Fine Arts Society) faced this same problem when a new violin teacher came to the school. He tested my cousin and told him (he'd been learning for 3-4 years) to forget everything he'd learned so far and started teaching him varisais all over again. But in his case, within a year of this new guru's teaching, my cousin's playing improved by leaps and bounds (he'd been taught by 3-4 teachers and each with their own ideas and so his playing with a rather bad mishmash of all their styles). So some amount of relearning might really help your son as well! But I agree that (1) banis should be cross-checked, and (2) a second opinion sought.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2009, 12:39

The problem is not all gurus stick exclusively to a bani. My earlier guru is almost the same age as the trio and he does not have any bani really.

But fortunate part iwas that when I went to a guru with a certain bani later I coudl easily adjust and by fluke my earlier bani was perhaps similar.

If a student is very shrewd and spends a few very classes only with a particular teacher and learns mostly of his own with good judgement of sound you could see in him a mix of many banis and a new style of bani.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 Apr 2009, 12:52

Another option, if the previous guru feels it's OK, would be to learn from a non-violinist.

Of course, the new guru should also agree!

bilahari wrote:He tested my cousin and told him (he'd been learning for 3-4 years) to forget everything he'd learned so far and started teaching him varisais all over again. But in his case, within a year of this new guru's teaching, my cousin's playing improved by leaps and bounds.

The new guru should have indeed been very knowledgeable to ask your cousin so authoritatively to forget what he'd learnt before and re-learn afresh. That's what makes me so curious who this very famous violinist is.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2009, 13:18

The new guru need not be a very famous one. If the student plays erratically then any guru would ask him to relearn it. Especially this erratic and incorrigible style is very rife in music schools where they teach many students in a class.

I have seen a school of such case ( govt funded) 160 kms from chennai , beach side city ( look how cautious I am

)where there is not even a single student of even a mediocre quality in the past 15 years right from its inception. After their music degree when they approach any other guru for further learning , the gurus are literelly stunned by the musical damage. ?These students can sometimes be rendered unfit for further learning as they have to spend at least 2 years to forget what they have learnt and start afresh.

T.T.SRINIVASAN · Post by **T.T.SRINIVASAN** » 05 Apr 2009, 14:59

Making corrections for wrongly learnt lessons is a hectic job. One could learn freshly faster than getting corrected for wrong lessons. some teachers are in the habbit of teaching fast without finding out what the student has learnt is in the right direction or not. This is to please both the students and his/her parents. I have seen many students when they change gurus they come with a note book in which 100 keerthanas will be written, unfortunately not even one song, the student will be able to play properly.In my opinion whoever rushes in learning initial lessons properly, they have to pay penalty for that in the long run. Saralai verse and upto alankara should be taught in speed 1,2 &3 and in the reverse direction 3,2 &1 by playing with a single bowing for each swaras, and then single bow for two, four etc swaras and like wise so many different patterns are there. Even if the student is made to learn a new lesson he should be monitored for earlier lessons. Both the student and parents should have lot of patience w.r.t initial lessons even though it takes 3 or 4 years. once the student falls in to the proper groove then he can take any Bani and learn from teacher of his choice.From the beginning whether the student understands or not he must be made to listen continuously to music and make him attend concerts and observe the different artists playing with all seriousness .Violin is a tough insturment and all of us know that even 1/10 th of a mm that or this side produces an apaswara. It requires lot of concentration and hard practice. students are lucky , if some body at home continuously monitor them when they practice at home. Individual attention helps the students to a larger extent

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2009, 15:10

Thanks T.T.Srinivasan sir. could you spare a little time to throw light on the thread - sounds of hindustani and carnatic violins. thanks in advance.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 05 Apr 2009, 17:34

Sir recently two students came to me for learning mridangam who had already learnt for 4 years. But what i found was deplorable fingering techniques and unacceptable laya and learning methods. So i had to start them from the beginning. Even in my own case after even having learnt 4 talas from Tanjore R.Ramadoss, Sri M.N.Kandaswamy whom i went later started off from Adi Tala Basic lessons but of course not Tha Dhi thom nam. But for my disciples i had to start off from the beginning because of the above situation. There is absolutely nothing wrong in starting off if the Guru is very good and capable of handling the disciples in the proper way.

J.Balaji

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 05 Apr 2009, 18:37

Students, after learning for not only years, but more a decade also come to Music Academy and if we feel that their fingering is not proper and will their efforts in that way may spoil their performing skills, we advice them to go from basics.

It has been the case in some of my sishyas too.

But, if you are not satisfied or see such things unacceptable, you can go for a second opinion.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 05 Apr 2009, 19:05

I have encountered two main kinds of 'problem' veena students: those who have learned to play the veena completely innocent of gamakas, and those who have been taught inappropriate gamakas - usually consisting of strings shaken with alarming enthusiasm at any inter-fret segment that has the misfortune to come their way.

Those in the first category are often salvageable - and I typically would start them at alankAra, introducing gamakas through getting them to play alankAras in three or four s'madhyama and an equal number of p'madhyama mEla rAgas.

The latter category is rather depressing, especially as some have been studying for 3-4 years or more, and I don't have the heart to re-initialize their playing style. In two such cases I've declined on grounds of 'style incompatibility'.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 Apr 2009, 19:11

g_m wrote:The new guru need not be a very famous one. If the student plays erratically then any guru would ask him to relearn it.

No, vganesh has referred to the (potential) new guru as a very famous violinist, which is why I addressed him that way.

Nonetheless, people won't ask a student to unlearn and stuff unless they are well-learnt and sure of everything.
---

vainika wrote:usually consisting of strings shaken with alarming enthusiasm at any inter-fret segment that has the misfortune to come their way.

Oh of course, you would know! It seems Vidwan Musiri Subramanya Iyer told Smt Kalpakam Swaminathan that this was a common tendency among vainikas in those days.

suma · Post by **suma** » 05 Apr 2009, 19:12

You have now reached chennai, the hub of carnatic music. Take your time, research and pick a guru who can commit to teach your son atleast for five years without any interruptions. Make sure that you are happy with this guru first before you join your child. A few phone calls with people would help you. Once you are satisfied, let the teacher make the decision as to where to start off your kid from. Since he has been learning for so long, normally after 3-4 classes they themselves will move to the next level.
It depends on the child also. Once the new teacher fixes the fingering, your child should put in effort to apply that fingering and not slip back to old fingering. It is not easy, but once the child is determined, sky is the limit. Best of luck.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2009, 19:33

Dear V.Ganesh,

If you can send a mail I shall reply you, where I shall write you with finding a new promising guru. My bit of help. But dont rush and get your son under some in a hurry. Do your homework.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 05 Apr 2009, 19:58

Also, with children there's more hope. Old dogs, new tricks, etc.

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 06 Apr 2009, 10:08

I did take my son to a different teacher for a second opinion ( In fact this did not occur to me at all ). The Second doctor (teacher - Mr.Akkarai Swaminathan), who told that my son is playing good but gamakas have to mature. He had told us to wait for some time, which I will do.

I do not want to name the teacher because as suggested everybody got their own style/bani. My concern was years of effort the child put in and they not matured to understand when the guru snubs so fast.
Once again I feel very light after discussing in this blog about my issues. Though these are personal in nature I felt today's social fabrics setup is such that it is difficult to get second opinion. Hope the moderators do not mind. I can assure that my topics would be related to music only.

In villages whether you like it or not people come forward and advise. Since I have been brought up in a village I continue to ask for opinions

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 06 Apr 2009, 11:30

Ganesh, out of curiosity, what does Sri Akkarai Swaminathan think your son should do in the interim?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Apr 2009, 11:46

when we talk of bani , what do you think is the bani nagai muralidharan . I dont see any specific bani. which bani coudl you relate his style to?

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 06 Apr 2009, 21:31

ganesh_mourthy wrote:when we talk of bani , what do you think is the bani nagai muralidharan . I dont see any specific bani. which bani coudl you relate his style to?

Ganesh Mourthy sir .. we can have this Baani discussion at a different thread i think.. We can try to help mr.ganesh solve his problem. Let us not Digress Please.
Dont mistake me

J.balaji

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Apr 2009, 21:46

Yes balaji I quite well understand your concern. plight

but sourced from only karthiks explanation , where we dont know how old ganesh son is , how he plays, canot judge his level, and we dont knwo who suggested him to totally relearn, this discussion is going to be endless without any purpose and only would bewilder mr.ganesh. I feel that beyond a point it is like discussing on a total abstract. Since he had taken his son to Akkarai Swaminathan I think his advice shoudl be rendered more valuable than any of these discussions since he is a senior guru himself who was a mentor of his own 2 daughters.

Ganesh

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 06 Apr 2009, 21:50

If I am not mistaken, Sri. S.V.Ramachandran learnt from his father and his father is a Lalgudi student. You can try a teacher who is from that bani so that style at least is the same.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 06 Apr 2009, 22:01

vganesh wrote: --- cut ---
Once again I feel very light after discussing in this blog about my issues. Though these are personal in nature I felt today's social fabrics setup is such that it is difficult to get second opinion. Hope the moderators do not mind. I can assure that my topics would be related to music only.

In villages whether you like it or not people come forward and advise. Since I have been brought up in a village I continue to ask for opinions

Dear Sri. V.Ganesh

It is very relevant topic. In fact I would say that it is extremely nice of you to bring your personal situation up for discussion. That shows your open nature and willingness to listen. At the end of it, the discussion and your decision will help many others as well. These kind of forums are virtual village which consist of people populated with minds similar to your own. The friends and colleagues or sometimes maybe even your own family who are there because of location may not share the same interest. Under these circumstances I think this kind of forum lets you tap into the experience and situations of like-minded people!

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 07 Apr 2009, 05:22

Thank you Ganesh_Mourthy sir and Balaji Sir. And to answer Mr.Bilahari, Mr.Swaminathan has told us to wait till end of April and that should be ok. SRamaswamy sir, Thank you very much

{ In fact I had another thread wherein I had discussed about school admission and took inputs, shamelessly :p }

I have two sons one 9 years and the other 14 years. The issue I raised was with the first son. For second son (who is also learning ) Mr.Swaminathan has suggested Mrs.Hemamalini (who is teaching at kalakshetra) and we have enrolled him with her.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Apr 2009, 06:03

What was your older son asked to do till the end of April?