A clarification

[cmrasika]

Hi all
1) As a keenly interested rasika , I stumbled upon rasikas.org and realised that it indeed is a good find. I 've been reading reviews of late, about Academy concerts.In some of the reviews of RTP concerts, the pallavi had been set to kanda jathi kanda nadai triputa talam. I've come across kanda jathi triputa talam and also know how it is put. However I don't understand the signifcance of the nadai like "kanda nadai" in this case. Is there is any change in the way that the tala is being put?

2) Also I came across a kanda nadai adi talam. How is it being put in the hand?. I have only heard of tisra nadai adhi taalam whose jathi comes as ta ki ta ta ki ta....But nonetheless I don't know why it is called tisra nadai adhi talam though understably due to 3 counts namely ta ki ta the suffix thisra comes but what about that "adhi talam" that succeeds the word thisra nadai?

3) Also what is trayadwayam talam? How to put it by the hands? Apparently one of the pallavis had been set to this talam.

Thank you for the assistance..

[Nick H]

You realise that tisra nadai (regardless of talam) has three, rather than the 'default' four pulses to the beat of chatusra nadai (seldom mentioned because it is the default).

For kanda nadai, simply, it is five instead of four or three.

There is no difference in the way that the talam is put, although one might simplify things for one's own understanding by putting the ThakaTakita khanda pattern with each clap and finger count --- if it isn't too fast, and one succeeds in following it..

You will find quite a lot of laya detail and explanation on this site, and I suggest you search it.

I also recommend you to google for mridangam, as several vidwans have been good enough to add explanations to their websites.

[cmrasika]

I have combed the net enough. So Nick, if you can post me the link about which you have mentioned, that would be kind of you. Also what is meant by ateetha eduppu and rendering a varnam in tisram, kandam etc?. I've seen varnam rendered in tri-kalam but no nadai change.

[vageyakara]

Hallo NICK -H
Your expatiation on the above will be of benefit to Rasikas, I suppose
Ramaraj

[Nick H]

If you work your way through the threads in the Laya section of this forum, you will certainly find some of your questions answered. The internet will also provide you with some wrong information about Nadai, which is a concept that some are determined to misunderstand.

It is very difficult to answer random questions on any subject, as there is usually some structure and pre-requisite understandings required.

Some of our members here have given with great generosity, both in explanation of basics, and in elucidation of further specific queries.

I do not mean to be unkind or unhelpful --- but the basics of carnatic tala are all available these days, in text books and/or on the web

[violinravi]

Hi cmr,
Your questions are intricate and needs lot of time to be spent on it to be properly understood. I can explain a little.

There are 3 kinds of "Eduppu-s". sama eduppu, atheetha eduppu and anAgatha eduppu. You'll be popular with adi tala. I need not explain you about the sama eduppu. atheetha eduppu means, song starts before the tala and anAgatha eduppu means, the song starts after the tala.
Examples:
atheetha eduppu: "SivakAma sundari" of Papanasam Sivan, in mukhari ragam and adi tala. It starts 2 mAththirais before the tala and the in the "Sivakama" the letter "ka" comes on "samam".

anAgatha eduppu: "Raghu nAyakA" of Sri Thyagaraja swamy, in Hamsadhwani ragam and adi tala. It starts 6 mAththirais after the samam. As one beat consists of 4 mAththirais, this eduppu is known as "oNrai idam eduppu" (1 1/2), (because 1 idam = 4 mAthirais, so 6 mAthirais means 1 1/2 idam). In Adi tala, the song starts after the full palm beat and 2 mAththirais in the small finger.

Varnam in thisra nadai: In case of this, you've to go thru the mathematics of the total number of mAthirais in one Avarthanam of Adi tala. Generally in Chathusra nadai, it consists of 32 (4 mAthirais X 8 beats)mAthirais. In thisra nadai, it'll have 48 (6 X 8) mAthirais. So when rendering a varnam in thisra nadai, you calculate the LCM of 48 and 32. It'll give you the answer of 96 (48 X 2 = 32 X 3 = 96). It means if you start rendering the varnam in thisra nadai, (but the "nadai style" of the varnam will be chathusram) 3 lines of the varnam (2 lines pallavi and 1 in anupallavi) will get completed in 2 Avarthis. So the total number of lines sung (including repetitions) should be divisible by 3.

If these definitions are tough to understand, let me know.

[cmrasika]

hai violinravi,
Thanks a lot for your kind reply.. The explanation is very good and am very happy now..
Best regards..

[vasanthakokilam]

Violinravi: Thanks for your reply. It is quite comprehensive and precise.

One follow-up to make sure I understand the 'varnam in tisra nadai' part properly. If there is no thalam keeping or mridangam accompaniment,
would the listener notice any difference when the singer sings the varnam in tisra nadai?

[V_ANNASAMY]

When sung/played in chatusra nadai(the default/normal), it would be felt as 'ta ka dhi mi' - in jathis(swaras in multiples of 4 )

when sung/ played in tisra nadai, it would sound like 'ta ki ta' (swaras in multiples of 3) can be heard.

And so in kanda nadai it is 'ta ka tha ki ta' (multiples of 5) can be heard.

Plus duration between counting (4 swara/jathi kala to 3; 4 to 5) can be noticed by listeners, if tala is followed attentively.

One simple kOrvai ( called 3 and 3/4 akshara)

1) Chatursra nadai - ta ka ta ki ta x 3 = 15 swara kAlA - 3 and 3/4 akshara (default)
2) Tisra nadai - ta ka ta ki ta x 3 = 15 swara kAlA - here it is 5 akshara kAlA
3) Kanda nadai - ta ka ta ki ta x 3 - 15 swara kAlA - here it 3 askshara kAla

- the swara kAlA remains same in any nadai.

[Nick H]

I do not agree: the same song sung in different nadais will sound the same. Why should it not; it is the same song?

It will appear to change its tempo, not its inherent rhythmic pattern.

[msakella]

Dear Brother-member, V_ANNASAMY, While an ‘akshara’ consists of only one-unit duration the ‘kriya i.e., act of rendering a beat or waving hand or any finger-count’ may consist of any number of units like 3(Trisra) or 4(Chaturashra) or 5(Khanda) or 7(Mishra) or 9(Sankeerna) etc. In general, in the absence of the proper theoretical knowledge, many are used to mis-spell ‘akshara’ instead of ‘Kriya’. Please observe this and make use of the proper. amsharma

[V_ANNASAMY]

Laghu only has the variations of Tisra, Chatusra, Khanda, Misra, Sankeerna in countings and these are covered under Jathis. Other kriyAs such drutham etc. do not have such variations in countings . Akshara perse is taken as each counting, be it drutham, laghu.

[msakella]

In which way the Laghu has the variations of Trisra-jaati(3-kriyas), Chaturashra-jaati(4-Kriyas), Khanda-jaati(5-kriyas), Misra-jaati(7-kriyas) and Sankeerna-jati(9-Kriyas) each Kriya also has the variation of Trisra-gati(3-units or Aksharas), Chaturashra-gati(4-units or Aksharas), Khanda-gati(5-units or Aksharas), Mishra-gati(7-units or Aksharas) and Sankeerna-gati(9-units or Aksharas). The Gati is the synonym of Nadai. While Laghu only has the variations of Jaati but not Druta or Anudruta each kriya of any Taalaanga has the Gati-variation. amsharma

[girish_a]

I do not agree: the same song sung in different nadais will sound the same. Why should it not; it is the same song?

It will appear to change its tempo, not its inherent rhythmic pattern.

You might also find this interesting, where "mridangam" discusses his experiences:
http://rasikas.org/forums/post102272.html#p102272

[msakella]

Dear brother-members, girish & mridhangam, In general, as the compositions are composed keeping the rhythmical stresses and balances of the Talangas of a Tala and as the Mridangist also follows them in the same manner while accompanying the artist no difference will be found. But, if a composition which is composed in a particular gati of a particular Tala has to be rendered in another gati of another Tala, I feel, the Mridangist has to play following the different stresses and balances of the later as the Mridangist, being a rhythmical-expert but not lyrical-expert, should mind only to bring out the rhythmical beauties of the later in which way he accompanies giving the first preference to gati and second preference to the cycle of Tala but in no way to lyric. amsharma

[svkashyap]

Are the nadai/gatis other than chaturashra not valid for chaapu talas? For example I fail to visualize a thishra gati khanda chaapu taala. Can someone please explain?

[Nick H]

My observation is that, say, misra chapu talam is expressed as one takitha thakadimi, rather than seven times takadimi, so it is not thought of as "chatusra nadai" misra chapu, but simply as misra chapu.

However, of course it can be given in different speeds, and tisram can be there.

Your tisra-gati khanda will simply come as TakitaTakita TakitaTakitaTakita; pt talm and say it; you'll find it comes quite easily!


girish_a... thank you: that post of mridangam's is indeed enlightening.