As I'm guessing most of us agree, fusion between musical systems is potentially a very valuable endeavor--but one that is often done badly, producing music that doesn't measure up to any of the contributing traditions.
In thinking about my own feelings on this matter, I think I've figured out what the secret to successful fusion might be. There's a lot of variety out there in the world, and it's easy for someone grounded in one tradition to go "wow, that sounds cool!" and attempt a crossover with something else. But I think better results will come when the musician thinks "what does my own music *lack* that I want to add to my playing?" I think fusion is always prefaced by private experimentation by the contributing musicians--and this should be motivated by the desire to add certain things to one's tradition that one feels are lacking, based on one's personal tastes.
For instance: my first love is Chinese classical music (specifically music for guqin zither, the most revered/'elevated' instrument), and after that I love many other traditions. But for years my 'second music' has been Carnatic, and for some reason Carnatic always appealed to me for fusion options. Recently I figured out that Carnatic music has three things lacking in Chinese music that I really want:
(1) improvisation (rare and unsystematic in China)
(2) heptatonic scales (exist, mainly as modulations between pentatonic scales, but seldom used)
(3) lyrical, i.e. 'vocal' texture
There are other traditions that include these elements--mainly from N. India and the Middle East, and I think the deciding factor in my focus on Carnatic has been the fact that I have a lot of friends who perform it! Also Chinese might share some closer aesthetics with Carnatic than with other traditions, but I haven't nailed them yet.
While I've done a lot of "woo that sounds cool!" random stuff in the past, I think the Carnatic thing might actually yield results (= music that is comparable in quality to the contributing traditions) because Carnatic includes the things I miss most in my traditional playing.
All that said -- now for the actual point.
What does everyone here think about the limitations of Carnatic music? For performers, what do you miss most that you wish you could do with your music? My collaborator says the thing he misses most in his Carnatic violin playing is harmony--so he's developing a serious interest in jazz. I suspect that if I performed Carnatic I would miss the moveable modal center of, say, East Asian and Middle Eastern modal musics.
Limitations
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Sramana
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http://www.china.org.cn/chinese/zhuanti/279807.htm
On the bet that nobody here reads Chinese, there's a "big fat list" of real audio files on this page, impossible to miss. This is guqin music--of uneven quality, but some of the best masters do make an appearance.
But anyway, I didn't mean for this thread to be about that. For people who love Carnatic music, especially performers--what do you miss? If you're familiar with any other traditions, do you think you could expand your own music by incorporating elements?
On the bet that nobody here reads Chinese, there's a "big fat list" of real audio files on this page, impossible to miss. This is guqin music--of uneven quality, but some of the best masters do make an appearance.
But anyway, I didn't mean for this thread to be about that. For people who love Carnatic music, especially performers--what do you miss? If you're familiar with any other traditions, do you think you could expand your own music by incorporating elements?
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
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Sramana, My feelings on this is, starting with the 'missing' things and plugging them, being a bottom up procedure by definition, runs the risk of sounding too analytical or 'made up'. That is the feel I get when I lisen to some 'fusion' music. ( That need not necessarily be the case, even with bottom up construction...)
Here is an alternate point of view which is a top down view. Consider all these musical systems and techniques as 'tools' at your disposal. Start your creativity and imagination at the abstract concept level. I tend to think of music as communicating something: an emotion, a scenario, a happening, whatever. At this point, it is similar to a painter, a poet, a story teller. They are all ideas not yet materialized. The materialized medium is different. In the case of music, realize it through the tools at your disposal. Your 'Spring Dawn' is indeed just an idea. I guess the challenge is how do you communicate that through music to a culturally diverse people and still make them think that you are talking about Spring Dawn when they hear your music.
Here is an alternate point of view which is a top down view. Consider all these musical systems and techniques as 'tools' at your disposal. Start your creativity and imagination at the abstract concept level. I tend to think of music as communicating something: an emotion, a scenario, a happening, whatever. At this point, it is similar to a painter, a poet, a story teller. They are all ideas not yet materialized. The materialized medium is different. In the case of music, realize it through the tools at your disposal. Your 'Spring Dawn' is indeed just an idea. I guess the challenge is how do you communicate that through music to a culturally diverse people and still make them think that you are talking about Spring Dawn when they hear your music.
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coolkarni
What do I miss in CM ?
The Drone of course !
Loud and clear .
Like in this short clip of KSG' flute.
http://rapidshare.de/files/19234752/ksg.mp3.html
On a more serious note , I Think Fusion is something that has to happen in the listeners minds rather than the performer's.
I have been hearing Jugalbandis for 25 years now and nearly all of them did very little to help people cross over and enjoy the other side.One can surely detect the glee with which the main performers hand it over to laya associates after a few rounds of Shadow Boxing.
I once had an occasion to accompany two Spanish Engineers, who were visiting Chennai on an Inspection assignment.We had Lunch at the Anna nagar Saravana Bhavan.They were keen to taste the Madras Thali and were very watchful throughout.They kept looking at the neighbours while having their meal -to see how the rice is mixed, how the Appalam is eater and so on.
At the end of the meal ,they had a problem though.They could not understand what to do with the nicely folded Paan.They had even sprinkled some colourful bits of Dry Coconut on the paans.
My amusement turned to Horror when one of the Engineers picked up one and placed it on top of his ear .
Yes we had just been visiting a temple and they had observed people keeping flowers there.
Sadly That is the story with most duets.
With a few exceptions
A "L Subramaniam-Menuhin" here and a "Ravikiran- Mzumdar" there.
The Drone of course !
Loud and clear .
Like in this short clip of KSG' flute.
http://rapidshare.de/files/19234752/ksg.mp3.html
On a more serious note , I Think Fusion is something that has to happen in the listeners minds rather than the performer's.
I have been hearing Jugalbandis for 25 years now and nearly all of them did very little to help people cross over and enjoy the other side.One can surely detect the glee with which the main performers hand it over to laya associates after a few rounds of Shadow Boxing.
I once had an occasion to accompany two Spanish Engineers, who were visiting Chennai on an Inspection assignment.We had Lunch at the Anna nagar Saravana Bhavan.They were keen to taste the Madras Thali and were very watchful throughout.They kept looking at the neighbours while having their meal -to see how the rice is mixed, how the Appalam is eater and so on.
At the end of the meal ,they had a problem though.They could not understand what to do with the nicely folded Paan.They had even sprinkled some colourful bits of Dry Coconut on the paans.
My amusement turned to Horror when one of the Engineers picked up one and placed it on top of his ear .
Yes we had just been visiting a temple and they had observed people keeping flowers there.
Sadly That is the story with most duets.
With a few exceptions
A "L Subramaniam-Menuhin" here and a "Ravikiran- Mzumdar" there.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
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coolkarni
Vk
The Punchline is yet to come.
Meena .
They were embarassed indeed.I put them at ease by narrating my experience at a Church on Christmas Eve with a Christian Friend.
Many years ago.
As I saw a Church Volunteer passing through our line with a small bag in hand I had noticed everyone before me put their hand inside and take it out.
Noiselessly.
I was not sure what was going on until i put my hand in when my turn came.
I felt around and noticed there were many coins inside.So I did what i thought was correct.I removed a Coin and kept it for myself.
Imagine my horror when my friend told me that I was supposed to put in a coin ,noiselessly.
The Punchline is yet to come.
Meena .
They were embarassed indeed.I put them at ease by narrating my experience at a Church on Christmas Eve with a Christian Friend.
Many years ago.
As I saw a Church Volunteer passing through our line with a small bag in hand I had noticed everyone before me put their hand inside and take it out.
Noiselessly.
I was not sure what was going on until i put my hand in when my turn came.
I felt around and noticed there were many coins inside.So I did what i thought was correct.I removed a Coin and kept it for myself.
Imagine my horror when my friend told me that I was supposed to put in a coin ,noiselessly.
Way to go.-
vasanthakokilam
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kiransurya
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drshrikaanth
- Posts: 4066
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sramana
There is some fabulous music in the link you posted. Just by discussing those 15 music files itself, we would get to know so much about chinese music. YOU MUST START A THREAD ON CHINESE MUSIC and discuss these files so whe know what you are talking about. You can add other sample as and when necessary. You cannot simply take from us. You must share your expertise too!
Guys- listen to the file 7 from top in that URL. It is fabulous hindOLa. Sounds so carnatic. After listening to some of those soothing pieces, I have the following questions
1) Are all the 5 mUrchanes(Obtained by frame shift of AdhAra ShaDja) of mOhana scale known, namely hindOLa (I know this is there), Suddha dhanyAsi(File 4 seems to have this), SuddhasAvEri, madhyamAvati(Now I would love to hear this!).
2) They do seem to have a concept of AdhAra ShaDja(Certainly in file 3, 4 and 5). I could see it shifts at times in some files(5).
3) Also at the beginning they seemed to play " S-P-S*-" just like us. Is that common?
3) The file 4(just an example) is a string instrument right? The strings are tuned to a high Sruti. It appears to be a fretless instrument played like the gOTuvAdya. i.e different notes are sounded by sliding fingers/ a metal piece/block of wood beneath(or over?) the strings. Is my observation correct?
There is some fabulous music in the link you posted. Just by discussing those 15 music files itself, we would get to know so much about chinese music. YOU MUST START A THREAD ON CHINESE MUSIC and discuss these files so whe know what you are talking about. You can add other sample as and when necessary. You cannot simply take from us. You must share your expertise too!
Guys- listen to the file 7 from top in that URL. It is fabulous hindOLa. Sounds so carnatic. After listening to some of those soothing pieces, I have the following questions
1) Are all the 5 mUrchanes(Obtained by frame shift of AdhAra ShaDja) of mOhana scale known, namely hindOLa (I know this is there), Suddha dhanyAsi(File 4 seems to have this), SuddhasAvEri, madhyamAvati(Now I would love to hear this!).
2) They do seem to have a concept of AdhAra ShaDja(Certainly in file 3, 4 and 5). I could see it shifts at times in some files(5).
3) Also at the beginning they seemed to play " S-P-S*-" just like us. Is that common?
3) The file 4(just an example) is a string instrument right? The strings are tuned to a high Sruti. It appears to be a fretless instrument played like the gOTuvAdya. i.e different notes are sounded by sliding fingers/ a metal piece/block of wood beneath(or over?) the strings. Is my observation correct?
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drshrikaanth
- Posts: 4066
- Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
This instrument sounds so much like our vINe in places. Is it the Guquin?
I did a search on Guquin and found that it is indeed played by pressing and sliding of fingers of one hand while those of the other pluck the strings. The technique is "an yin". Also they play with fingernails and not attached fakenails. This is EXACTLY what is done in the Mysore style of playing the vINe and the reasons are the same-to avoid the interfering metallic sound of the metal nails and to produce gamakas better! And there are various techniques for producingvarious gamakas.
Here is the link to a beautiful and exhaustive article on the Guqin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin
I did a search on Guquin and found that it is indeed played by pressing and sliding of fingers of one hand while those of the other pluck the strings. The technique is "an yin". Also they play with fingernails and not attached fakenails. This is EXACTLY what is done in the Mysore style of playing the vINe and the reasons are the same-to avoid the interfering metallic sound of the metal nails and to produce gamakas better! And there are various techniques for producingvarious gamakas.
Here is the link to a beautiful and exhaustive article on the Guqin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin
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drshrikaanth
- Posts: 4066
- Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
Venkatpv
Absolutely right. Sorry that should have been track-7. Yes track 3 is indeed mOhana. Thanks for pointing out the inadvertent error.
And also note the unmistakable madhyamAvati at the end of track 6.(Hope that is the right one)
Overall, in those files, there seems to be more of hindOLa than mOhana.
Absolutely right. Sorry that should have been track-7. Yes track 3 is indeed mOhana. Thanks for pointing out the inadvertent error.
And also note the unmistakable madhyamAvati at the end of track 6.(Hope that is the right one)
Overall, in those files, there seems to be more of hindOLa than mOhana.
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kaapi
- Posts: 146
- Joined: 05 Jun 2005, 14:32
DRS,
In Singapore during the month preceding Chinese new Year invariably only Chinese music is played over the PA system in the malls, office lobbies etc. Most of them is mOhanam but I have also heard quite a bit of suddha sAveri. The only problem is that at times the swarasthana seem to be a wee bit away. For example in suddha sAveri the m1 at times is between g3 and m1 and so on.
During the Chinese New musicians, jugglers and dancers from China visit Singapore and perform at various locations in public.
Once as I was walking through a mall during the Chinesee new Year season in 2005 I saw two young girls from China playing guqin(pronounced as kuchin). This is a gottuvadyam like instrument. I do not remember the ragas that they played. As a matter of fact I forgot about this till now.
They played two pieces each lasting roughly 30 minutes. There were lot of gamakas, some of them exceedingly long (3 to 4 notes like those of SB). What impressed me was the speed and sycronisations. It was apparent that they had done asura sAdhakam. They played something like the alapana and also something resembling swara prastharam. They played alternately first one girl played a "sangathi and then the other. However unlike CM both seemed equal partners and developed on what the other played.
I will try to get some more info and post.
In Singapore during the month preceding Chinese new Year invariably only Chinese music is played over the PA system in the malls, office lobbies etc. Most of them is mOhanam but I have also heard quite a bit of suddha sAveri. The only problem is that at times the swarasthana seem to be a wee bit away. For example in suddha sAveri the m1 at times is between g3 and m1 and so on.
During the Chinese New musicians, jugglers and dancers from China visit Singapore and perform at various locations in public.
Once as I was walking through a mall during the Chinesee new Year season in 2005 I saw two young girls from China playing guqin(pronounced as kuchin). This is a gottuvadyam like instrument. I do not remember the ragas that they played. As a matter of fact I forgot about this till now.
They played two pieces each lasting roughly 30 minutes. There were lot of gamakas, some of them exceedingly long (3 to 4 notes like those of SB). What impressed me was the speed and sycronisations. It was apparent that they had done asura sAdhakam. They played something like the alapana and also something resembling swara prastharam. They played alternately first one girl played a "sangathi and then the other. However unlike CM both seemed equal partners and developed on what the other played.
I will try to get some more info and post.
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drshrikaanth
- Posts: 4066
- Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
Thanks kaapi. Yes even I got the feeling while listening that some notes strayed from our typical swarasthAnas. Do they follow equal intonation(WM)or just intonation(like us)?
mOhana is undoubtedly the most widespread rAga and considered one of the (if not THE) oldest rAgas in the world. It just happens that in those 15 clips, more of them appear to be hindOLa than of mOhana.
Would love to hear more.
mOhana is undoubtedly the most widespread rAga and considered one of the (if not THE) oldest rAgas in the world. It just happens that in those 15 clips, more of them appear to be hindOLa than of mOhana.
Yes. I loved some of the gamakas. What is SB?There were lot of gamakas, some of them exceedingly long (3 to 4 notes like those of SB).
Would love to hear more.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
DRS, Thanks for pointing out that madhyamAvati. Spot on. I was blown away.And also note the unmistakable madhyamAvati at the end of track 6.
Overall, in those files, there seems to be more of hindOLa than mOhana.
I will have to listen to the pieces again, I am not latching on to Hindolam that much ( but I hear Mohanam a lot in piece 3).
Based on your suggestion, I clicked on piece 6... as it was playing I drifted away to reading other things and even forgot about why I am playing piece 6. But then madhyamAvati came and I was immediately drawn back in. The playing method is also so carnatic and that adds to the striking similarity. Right after madyamAvati like sound came on, I thought it drifted a bit away from it briefly but then it came back really strongly to madyamAvati till the end of the piece.
When I heard chinese music in Chinese restraunts before, I usually file them away under Mohanam or Sudha Saveri. For the latter, I have heard stuff that has striking resemblance to the Suddha Saveri Geetham AnalEkara. I will make it a point to listen and see if I hear Suddha Dhanyasi, Hindolam and madhyamAvati as well.
My personal experience with music and Chinese is, I once played the Mohana Varnam as part of a Diversity Event ( Affirmative Action ) at work. At the end, a few chinese colleagues who are not musicians themselves were all super excited that what I played reminded them so much of Chinese music.
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drshrikaanth
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kaapi
- Posts: 146
- Joined: 05 Jun 2005, 14:32
DRS,
SB is S.Balachander.
VK,
You are right. much of sudhdha sAveri starts with lines reminding one of AnalEkara.
For more information on Chinese musical scales please visit the web page at the link given below . The difficulty I faced while reading the article is that it is written in comparison to WM. If any of the forum members can actually relate thearticle in CM terms I will be extremely thankful to them.
http://www.cechinatrans.demon.co.uk/ctm-psm.html
I would also request the discussions to proceed at a slower pace as this a totally music genre for many of us.
SB is S.Balachander.
VK,
You are right. much of sudhdha sAveri starts with lines reminding one of AnalEkara.
For more information on Chinese musical scales please visit the web page at the link given below . The difficulty I faced while reading the article is that it is written in comparison to WM. If any of the forum members can actually relate thearticle in CM terms I will be extremely thankful to them.
http://www.cechinatrans.demon.co.uk/ctm-psm.html
I would also request the discussions to proceed at a slower pace as this a totally music genre for many of us.
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Sramana
- Posts: 39
- Joined: 30 Apr 2006, 03:33
**** OK, once I wrote this I saw the formatting on the chart is all off, and I don't know how to fix it. There are supposed to be five columns, one for each of the pentatonic ragas. Each rank, 1 thru 5, defines an absolute pitch. (You can make 1 'C' if you like.) The chart is there to illustrate how choosing a different absolute pitch as tonic from a fixed scale of five absolute pitches gives you a new raga.***
Kaapi: that page is extremely technical and I don't understand much of it myself!
Most qin players don't learn theory at all, really. We don't need to since there is no improvisation and no method for composing. (Problems, I know...) Qin music can be modally very subtle, but 95% of it falls somewhere on this chart:
Shuddhasaveri Shuddhadhanyasi Mohanam Madhyamavati Hindolam
1 S N2 P M1 G2
2 R2 S D2 P M1
3 M1 G2 S N2 D1
4 P M1 R2 S N2
5 D2 P G3 R2 S
While using swara notation is rather misleading considering the nature of the music, it's OK as long as you realize that the position of 'sa' is frequently shifting.
One easy definition of the "standard pentatonic scale" is that it contains no semitones. You'll find semitones in qin music occasionally, but generally only as ornaments or as transitions into transposed pentatonic scales (I realize even this is technical, and will trail off...).
Given the craziness most CM rasikas are used to, understanding qin modes shouldn't be hard; I think the chart above is your best key.
Kaapi: that page is extremely technical and I don't understand much of it myself!
Most qin players don't learn theory at all, really. We don't need to since there is no improvisation and no method for composing. (Problems, I know...) Qin music can be modally very subtle, but 95% of it falls somewhere on this chart:
Shuddhasaveri Shuddhadhanyasi Mohanam Madhyamavati Hindolam
1 S N2 P M1 G2
2 R2 S D2 P M1
3 M1 G2 S N2 D1
4 P M1 R2 S N2
5 D2 P G3 R2 S
While using swara notation is rather misleading considering the nature of the music, it's OK as long as you realize that the position of 'sa' is frequently shifting.
One easy definition of the "standard pentatonic scale" is that it contains no semitones. You'll find semitones in qin music occasionally, but generally only as ornaments or as transitions into transposed pentatonic scales (I realize even this is technical, and will trail off...).
Given the craziness most CM rasikas are used to, understanding qin modes shouldn't be hard; I think the chart above is your best key.