2 kalai kritis
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carnaticpriya
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- Joined: 28 Mar 2008, 19:39
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srinivasrgvn
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- Joined: 30 Nov 2008, 07:46
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
My 2 cents:
(a) They are usually in slow tempo (mostly albeit for some localized variations) and thus the swaras with gamakas "stand out" more, one need to deliver them with a lot of precision (i.e. room for error is very low as it would stand out). This applies to all chowka kala krithis.
(b) because of the longer avartana, you find that a lot more swaras can also fit in the "extended" beat in places (by extended - i mean if you take 2-kalai as still only 8 beats except that are widely spaced that to get timing we put tala such that we do 2 taps per beat). This allows for more complicated combinations/sangatis thus making the piece itself more complicated.
Arun
(a) They are usually in slow tempo (mostly albeit for some localized variations) and thus the swaras with gamakas "stand out" more, one need to deliver them with a lot of precision (i.e. room for error is very low as it would stand out). This applies to all chowka kala krithis.
(b) because of the longer avartana, you find that a lot more swaras can also fit in the "extended" beat in places (by extended - i mean if you take 2-kalai as still only 8 beats except that are widely spaced that to get timing we put tala such that we do 2 taps per beat). This allows for more complicated combinations/sangatis thus making the piece itself more complicated.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 07 Mar 2009, 20:14, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
>This allows for more complicated combinations/sangatis thus making the piece itself more complicated.
My first thought was the same as above, namely, the complicated sangathis that we see in such 2-Kalai krithis. They are wonderful indeed but I can imagine the degree of difficulty.
BTW, what makes a krithi a 2-kaLai krithi? ( The vaggeyakara said so is not what I am looking for ).
I have the following thoughts but none leads to a clear answer.
a) I don't think a 1-kaLai krithi sung slowly will be considered a 2 kaLai krithi.
b) I don't think a 1-kaLai adi thala krithi can be equivalently considered as 2-kaLai chathusra eka thala krithi ( though it works very well for me for desAdi thala krithis of Thyagaraja ).
c) It makes sense if it is something inherent in the laya. (I have my own dabber hypotheses which tend to be wrong
)
d) How could we tell from a rendering of the song, without looking at the kriyas, if it is 2 kaLai or not.
( Sorry if this hijacks the thread from the original poster's question but I thought if we do not establish what 2-kaLai is clearly, the answers to the original question may not be that fruitful )
My first thought was the same as above, namely, the complicated sangathis that we see in such 2-Kalai krithis. They are wonderful indeed but I can imagine the degree of difficulty.
BTW, what makes a krithi a 2-kaLai krithi? ( The vaggeyakara said so is not what I am looking for ).
I have the following thoughts but none leads to a clear answer.
a) I don't think a 1-kaLai krithi sung slowly will be considered a 2 kaLai krithi.
b) I don't think a 1-kaLai adi thala krithi can be equivalently considered as 2-kaLai chathusra eka thala krithi ( though it works very well for me for desAdi thala krithis of Thyagaraja ).
c) It makes sense if it is something inherent in the laya. (I have my own dabber hypotheses which tend to be wrong
)d) How could we tell from a rendering of the song, without looking at the kriyas, if it is 2 kaLai or not.
( Sorry if this hijacks the thread from the original poster's question but I thought if we do not establish what 2-kaLai is clearly, the answers to the original question may not be that fruitful )
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nvidya
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 20:05
Dear Vasanthakokilam,
I hope I am not asking a question already asked --- You mentioned laya in your post, for the past one
month I have trying to find out what means by this word "laya" without much success.
One question which is in my mind for the past 6 years is --- If a student of music sings fast and puts the thala fast but maintains it is first kala only -- how do we find out.
Also is there any standard speed for first kala and second kala [ which an untrained ear can make out not based on the number of swaras for the thala ].For example when I sing second kala ,it sounds like my daughter's first kala.
I hope I have put the question properly.
I have searched the web and asked some people about this doubt of mine. But I think I need a book "Carnatic Music for Dummies" series.
I am very sorry for putting forth such a basic question.
Regards,
Vidya
I hope I am not asking a question already asked --- You mentioned laya in your post, for the past one
month I have trying to find out what means by this word "laya" without much success.
One question which is in my mind for the past 6 years is --- If a student of music sings fast and puts the thala fast but maintains it is first kala only -- how do we find out.
Also is there any standard speed for first kala and second kala [ which an untrained ear can make out not based on the number of swaras for the thala ].For example when I sing second kala ,it sounds like my daughter's first kala.
I hope I have put the question properly.
I have searched the web and asked some people about this doubt of mine. But I think I need a book "Carnatic Music for Dummies" series.
I am very sorry for putting forth such a basic question.
Regards,
Vidya
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Vidya, by 'kala' I assume you mean kAlA and not kaLai.
Unfortunately, as with many of the terminologies in Indian music, there are two different but very related usages for kAlA. One refers to Tempo and the other one refers to Speed. The difference between tempo and speed is, for a given rendition, the tempo itself does not change where as the speed can change. The tempo is defined by the beats per minute.
Normally in practice, the duration of 1 beat is around .6 to .7 seconds for a majority of the songs resulting in a beats per minute (BPM ) of 85 to 100. This is based on my own measurement of a good sample of songs. Let us call this medium tempo ( madhyama ). Any BPM significantly less than this range would be the slow tempo ( vilambit ) and any BPM significantly higher than this range would be the fast tempo.( duritha).
kaLai refers to the number of beats for each kriya of the thala. So in 2 kaLai, you will keep 2 beats for each kriya of the thala. This means, for example, Adi thala with 8 kriyas will consist of 16 beats in 2 kaLai.
>Also is there any standard speed for first kala and second kala
Strictly speaking the answer is no. You would have seen some musicians singing songs in a slow tempo that are otherwise normally sung in medium tempo.
Other than such variations in those infrequent cases, most renditions follow what I wrote above.
Once the tempo ( BPM ) is fixed for a song, say somewhere between 85-100 BPM, speed variations occur with reference to that constant tempo.
Speed is defined by the number of swaras/syllables that are present in any particular beat. If there are normally 4 swaras to a beat, if you pack 8 swaras to a beat, that will be double the speed, if you pack only 2 swaras to a beat, that will be half the speed etc. Of course, if you pack 3 swaras to a beat, that will be tisram, pack 5 swaras to a beat it will be kandam etc.
Corrections welcome..
Unfortunately, as with many of the terminologies in Indian music, there are two different but very related usages for kAlA. One refers to Tempo and the other one refers to Speed. The difference between tempo and speed is, for a given rendition, the tempo itself does not change where as the speed can change. The tempo is defined by the beats per minute.
Normally in practice, the duration of 1 beat is around .6 to .7 seconds for a majority of the songs resulting in a beats per minute (BPM ) of 85 to 100. This is based on my own measurement of a good sample of songs. Let us call this medium tempo ( madhyama ). Any BPM significantly less than this range would be the slow tempo ( vilambit ) and any BPM significantly higher than this range would be the fast tempo.( duritha).
kaLai refers to the number of beats for each kriya of the thala. So in 2 kaLai, you will keep 2 beats for each kriya of the thala. This means, for example, Adi thala with 8 kriyas will consist of 16 beats in 2 kaLai.
>Also is there any standard speed for first kala and second kala
Strictly speaking the answer is no. You would have seen some musicians singing songs in a slow tempo that are otherwise normally sung in medium tempo.
Other than such variations in those infrequent cases, most renditions follow what I wrote above.
Once the tempo ( BPM ) is fixed for a song, say somewhere between 85-100 BPM, speed variations occur with reference to that constant tempo.
Speed is defined by the number of swaras/syllables that are present in any particular beat. If there are normally 4 swaras to a beat, if you pack 8 swaras to a beat, that will be double the speed, if you pack only 2 swaras to a beat, that will be half the speed etc. Of course, if you pack 3 swaras to a beat, that will be tisram, pack 5 swaras to a beat it will be kandam etc.
Corrections welcome..
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Vijayakumar
- Posts: 58
- Joined: 03 Aug 2009, 12:01
Dear vasanthakolkilam and others,
This is the first time i am ever seeing someone trying to answer the "tempo / speed part of the tala with a scientific time measurement. I ahve asked many people that what is the scientific timing in secs or millisec between different beats of a tala and have not got an answer yet. Everyone uses it but no one can precisely define it in absolute time measurement. The beauty about Indian classical system is that several such things are not documented and defined but left to be "experienced" and "explored" leaving lot of room for confusion and ofcourse creativity. This has been researched and commented by foreign researches studying our systems. With poor documentation, we are caryying forward a rich heritage through gurukula system. Hence its more an art and less a science.
thanks to vasanthakokilam to attempt a timed measurement for the beat based on his collective experience.
This is the first time i am ever seeing someone trying to answer the "tempo / speed part of the tala with a scientific time measurement. I ahve asked many people that what is the scientific timing in secs or millisec between different beats of a tala and have not got an answer yet. Everyone uses it but no one can precisely define it in absolute time measurement. The beauty about Indian classical system is that several such things are not documented and defined but left to be "experienced" and "explored" leaving lot of room for confusion and ofcourse creativity. This has been researched and commented by foreign researches studying our systems. With poor documentation, we are caryying forward a rich heritage through gurukula system. Hence its more an art and less a science.
thanks to vasanthakokilam to attempt a timed measurement for the beat based on his collective experience.