Replacing Sahitya with Meaningless Gibberish?

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 30 Jul 2017, 10:00

Swami,
amṛtaṃ = original sahitya
gibberish = water
modern lyrics =poison

Only Devi can now help us! Like Dikshitar, TMK has created the right atmosphere for Amrita Varshini. I hope more people will now more zealously espouse a respectful attitude to sahitya.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 30 Jul 2017, 16:14

There is one brain exercise making rounds in social media -
BRAIN EXERCISES

"I cdnuolt blveiee that I cluod aulacltyn
uesdnatnrd what I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a pboerlm. This is bcuseaethe huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the word as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!"

I seriously doubt whether human mind cannot truly invent gibberish particularly with metre as constraint. Probably something like random number generator can help.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jul 2017, 17:29

One man's meat is another man's poison.

No doubt it has been said in many languages over many centuries!

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid

Similar examples leave out multiple letters, cover up part of the line, etc, etc. Does this work in Indian languages?

English, both written and spoken, has a peculiar flexibility. If you ask me about "Borminghum," I may well realise which city you mean. On the other hand, even now, auto drivers look blank if I say Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan! Thank god for Rasi silk.

And I can say most of the local names understandably. Hmm... Maybe it's because I learnt the London branch of BVB long before coming here!

Of course, place and people names in Tamil Nadu are much easier to an English speaker than they are in, eg, France. Mind you, I would have had no clue at all what a recent foreign visitor was saying if I had not just picked her up from Balaji Nagar. I wonder what she would have done with Sholinganallur!

Speaking of France, it is funny watching my Tamil-speaking wife talking to Tamil-speaking auto drivers... in Pondicherry! She has no clue how to say the French street names so that they understand.

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 30 Jul 2017, 18:02

Sir, all this was already processed into the idea of replacing sahitya with "appropriate" gibberish. May a super TMK be on the stage soon with the creative powers to adlib Thyagaraja al la Gibberish.
A day may dawn when there will be Gibberish Pancharatna Goshtigana.
And we will start honouring newer and better Gibberish adaptations of the Trinity.
And finally a SUPER KALANIDHI for it! Oooooh... fur thi ecixtnig tmeis aahed!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Jul 2017, 23:27

Nick H wrote: ↑30 Jul 2017, 17:29Speaking of France, it is funny watching my Tamil-speaking wife talking to Tamil-speaking auto drivers... in Pondicherry! She has no clue how to say the French street names so that they understand.

Nick speaking French in Tamil is a separate dialect (possibly even a distinct language, like Ebonics)! I am sure only life-long residents (like PB, Ponbhairavi, Ganesh Mourthy et al) know how to do it right - sometimes I wonder if it requires some epigentic phenomenon to be able to speak and understand

......I certainly did not learn how to in all my years there!!

And the place I missed not learning it the most was this little island in the heart of Paris called 'Little Pondicherry' - a place when some Tamil-speaking French citizens were relocated when Pondicherry joined the Indian Republic, and have settled down there for generations....And they speak a language that sounds like what the gypsies speak - a mixture of French and Tamil, that no one else understands. Thankfully, they still serve some of the best filter coffee and masala dosa outside of South India.....

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 31 Jul 2017, 00:11

Ravi,
Having visited Paris more than a dozen times for work with varying periods of stay, and having craved Masala Dosa & Filter Coffee during those trips, I suggest that maybe you should share the Google Maps locations of your favourite haunts, as it may yet be the greatest service to humanity (at least for the likes of me

) and decide issues of war and peace.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Aug 2017, 07:50

Smt. Anita Ratnam in Sruti issue of Aug 2017:
"I am stimulated by sound and images. I use very little lyrics in my works. .. As ‘Neelam’ was purely a ritual solo ode to Vishnu, the lyrics were important, but even there I experimented with the long ragam and tanam before having the pallavi enter like a quick, final brushstroke."

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 11 Aug 2017, 01:09

Sachi_R wrote: ↑31 Jul 2017, 00:11 Ravi,
Having visited Paris more than a dozen times for work with varying periods of stay, and having craved Masala Dosa & Filter Coffee during those trips, I suggest that maybe you should share the Google Maps locations of your favourite haunts, as it may yet be the greatest service to humanity (at least for the likes of me ) and decide issues of war and peace.

Tripadvisor is incredibly useful for just this sort of thing....

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 11 Aug 2017, 09:51

Yes, I have the app

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 11 Aug 2017, 10:41

We are some 40 plus years behind the movie industry to try the same - I mean I am referring to the title of the thread!!:

https://youtu.be/-V2_erhIZh8?t=2135

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 12 Aug 2017, 21:44

Again from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJH3H-gkWsU - his numero uno music director Ilayaraja now regrets loss of good lyrics from Movies - when he is the one who started this with his Gummangutthu songs!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 15 Aug 2017, 13:47

Sree Ramaseva Mandali, Bengaluru has launched today "Musically Yours" that will feature articles on Music. It has published the following:
http://musicallyyours.co.in/article/15
The Krithi and its contribution to Modern Music - by G N Balasubramaniam

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 15 Aug 2017, 17:36

Sir,
Sri GNB has written:

One wonders whether those who are not conversant with South Indian Karnatic concert, will be able to understand and realise what a performance today can be without Krithis at all.

Poor GNB. He of course couldn't imagine what a great artiste of today, viz. TMK is saying and writing. Soon, I am almost sure, he will give a full concert with gibberish, to prove how meanings and sahitya are irrelevant for a liberated Carnatic experience.

By the way, I particularly like this song for its words: copied from karnatik.com:
saamagana lOlE
raagam: hindOLam
20 naTabhairavi janya
Aa: S G2 M1 D1 N2 S
Av: S N2 D1 M1 G2 S

taaLam:
Composer: G.N. Baalasubramaniam
Language: Sanskrit

pallavi

saama gaana lOlE, salalita guNa jaalE amba

anupallavi

sOma bimba vadanE, nisseema mahima sadanE
saamaja mridu gadanE, kaamadaana nipuNE amba
(saama)

caraNam

kOmalaanga kaamEshwara, vaama bhaga sadanE
naama bhajita saadu jana, paapa kuta shamanE
taamasaadi guNa kalpita, taapatraya shamanE
tEmadaya rasa purita, hema (?) kamala nayanE amba
(saama)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Aug 2017, 18:01

Sachi_R wrote: ↑15 Aug 2017, 17:36 Soon, I am almost sure, he will give a full concert with gibberish, to prove how meanings and sahitya are irrelevant for a liberated Carnatic experience.

What, like alapana, thanum, kalpana swara...?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 16 Aug 2017, 20:04

Somebody finds konnakkOl as not gibberish , when Mridangam was gibberish to most !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OppDZnV-550

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Aug 2017, 21:51

Thanks....
alapana, thanum, kalpana swara, konnakkol...

(la la la and dum de dum de dum)

(but not do be do be do, which is not gibberish but philosophy

)

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 16 Aug 2017, 21:54

Meaning begins ( or completes) with objects or philosophy? Even a liberal judge like Markandey Katju laments lack of philosophical knowledge among judges. http://topyaps.com/markandey-katju-india-sc-judges

So if justice rendering requires philosophy then meaning requires that as well!

GautamTejasGaneshan · Post by **GautamTejasGaneshan** » 17 Aug 2017, 22:19

what's up y'all - i can't keep up, in fact i'm browsing rasikas for the first time now in months.

MaheshS wrote: ↑27 Jul 2017, 16:02 A fellow forumite called Gautam did / does this, the lyrics are all in English, he says that it's a translation of existing krithis. I tried listening to a couple of concerts, but couldn't understand any words at all ... so even though the lyrics were certainly not gibberish, the whole package itself didn't make much sense to me.

quick point - my songs are not translations.

if you're interested:

texts:

https://www.instagram.com/iamgtgsongs/

photos:

https://www.instagram.com/iamgtg/

video clips (speakers/headphones):

https://vimeo.com/channels/gautamtejasganeshan

(or just search for me on youtube)

support me please:

https://www.patreon.com/gautamtejasganeshan

- g

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 18 Aug 2017, 08:25

The gibberish author perhaps fulfils Freud: “Human beings are fundamentally driven by the pursuit of pleasure, not interested in meaning.” But, here is a spoilsport: Victor Henkl: “Human beings are fundamentally driven by the pursuit of meaning.”

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 18 Aug 2017, 09:21

Googling on Victor Henkl gives me Victor Frankl the neurologist as the top hit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl) and Henkl as white pages, Linked Ins, twitter handles etc.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 18 Aug 2017, 10:00

It is the neurologist.

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 18 Aug 2017, 10:03

Level 1 = Word gives meaning.
Level 2 = Meaning gives word.
Level 3 = Wordless gives meaning.
Level 4 = Meaningless gives feeling.

Which level are you at?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 18 Aug 2017, 13:01

I am on top of the world - at level 4!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 18 Aug 2017, 19:03

kvchellappa wrote: ↑18 Aug 2017, 10:00 It is the neurologist.

I did not know that Google is now adept at handling Gibberish based on what we call the soundex function! So the sound by itself acquires meaning!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Aug 2017, 19:09

Folks,
As I looked at the levels, something emerged. Call it a whim, but rings true to me.
I have inverted every line, and added a few words to the existing ones. For someone who deals with words all the time (big mouth, writer of sorts), I think it makes sense too.Here goes:

Meaning gives words
Words give meaning

Meaning gives wordless state at times
Feelings give meaningless states too--

So, feeling exists for me in song
No song can do it too, if played fine
Neither song nor notes--in their silence
Can also bring me joy, in their stillness...

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 18 Aug 2017, 19:25

Arasi, you're the Sribhashyakaara Ramanuja to my Brahmasutrakaara Badarayana Vyasa!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Aug 2017, 21:30

Sachi,
That's something! However, you know them and their works. I know only their names and a tad more, I'm afraid

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 18 Aug 2017, 21:46

Thanks Arasi for that nice poetic summary.

Sachi's levels can only be supplemented below by the cosmology of Sound by Dr HMB - as to what led up to words in the first place.

1. Primordial Sound ( Vowels)
2. Long and Short - (dIrga/hrasva) ( leading to the formation of Chandas the venerated Meter)
3. Stressful consonants -
- starting (ending of the vaRNa mAla) with "sa" ( Dr HMB's Sangita Kalpadruma) at the outer end - where we connect with the Cosmos - ha is an open air emission - no stress - used in sAma chanting.
- starting with "ka" at the inner end - the upAsana mentioned by dIskhitar in his first(SrI nAthAdi guruguhO): kAdi vidya ( mAtmaka kAdi matAnuSHTAnO) - where subramhaNya (son) is in meditation towards divine mother - and the kriti ends with him teaching the same to his father ( mahESasya mahARthOpadESa)

4. Words formed putting together letters with differential stresses!

Meaning arises from the upAdhi (- translated as fraud/deceit/limitation imposed on - but I will take it as suffering) of humans!

That we speak of several cosmologies at various levels ( even allegorically or imaginatively) is the deep awareness within the System!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 18 Aug 2017, 21:55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB_lc00AWIE&t=2164s

A discussion with Neurologist dwells on cognitive reduction or limitation imposed by writing!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 28 Sep 2017, 15:08

MLV amma’s lec-demo on Thodi (courtesy Varsha) explains clearly how Thyagaraja has set different Krithis to not only different sangathis but also to different aspects of bhakthi. Spencer Venugopal’s talk on Ramand Krishnan centenary celebration enlightens as to how he has elucidated how a raga to be sung etc. Thus, the theory that the composer(s) did not bother about meaning seems unfounded.

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 28 Sep 2017, 17:04

Thanks for KVC. Can you kindly post the two links here for me?

narayara000 · Post by **narayara000** » 28 Sep 2017, 22:38

Yes pl post links

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 04 Jan 2018, 10:29

From FB

Radha Bhaskar

#Musicthoughts13# Does the internalisation of the lyrics & it's meaning have significant impact on the delivery of the song? The answer is a big YES after hearing the exposition of Sri Neyveli Santhanagopalan on Raga Vagadeeswari & the Kriti Paramathmudu in it recently.The way he has analysed the lyrics & revelled on each word seemed so penetrating & created a magic spell on the listener as he sang it. It was an experience to be truly cherished! Quite in contrast to one young singer in a TV channel today who was referring to the script for every word of every song he was singing. The rendition seemed like a hanging skeleton ! Well, Sahithya is not just a peg to hang the raga, it is much beyond that and contributes substantially in the music making. It is our own inadequacy which makes us think otherwise!!

Sachi_R · Post by **Sachi_R** » 04 Jan 2018, 13:03

Thanks for sharing, KVC. Radha Bhaskar is saying something I agree with 100%.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Jan 2018, 13:55

My brain can turn anything into meaningless gibberish.

Whenever I see Mahendra XUV vehicle, my brain sings it to tune of bhogindra saying.

Yesterday I went to Madipakkam... Too the tune after Adai Kallam.

(apologies for probably wrong spellings)

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 04 Jan 2018, 19:47

NickH, you have invested the time to hear this nAdA , however imperfectly, insincerely it is uttered. That is because even if the people are so imperfect, the system still says it is traditional - at least as a lip service tries to honor the past! That spirit is what draws people like you to listen often to the same thing!

So your brain can sing the tune anywhere!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 04 Jan 2018, 20:00

Has it got something to do with the title?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Jan 2018, 22:13

So your brain can sing the tune anywhere!

Many, many years ago, school days, in fact, I sang out a couple of words to part of the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah. Amazed by how easily they fitted, I tried some others, and others, and others. Perhaps I had discovered that Handel had written the universal melody, to which anything could be sung!

Sometimes it is some likeness in the sound of the words, more often it is something in the rhythm that fits, but this combining of odd words with some song, and then making (suffering?

) an earworm of it is a mental habit.

jshrikanth · Post by **jshrikanth** » 05 Jan 2018, 10:18

Here's an alternative take on evolution of music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSpPgXRb5Cg

With 'gibberish' in the thread title, and now Nick's reference to the Hallelujah chorus, I couldn't resist posting this classic scene from Mel Brook's History of the World Part 1.

My apologies for digressing from the discussion.