Abhiprayam and final mutthaippu

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 06 Mar 2009, 20:43

For a long time i wanted to know what this abhiprayam means.mridangists use them and talk about them.how is this abhiprayam structured.

also i want to know who framed the thi thangidathakatharikitathaka tha thi thangidathakatharikitathaka
thi thangidathakatharikitathaka thalangu thi tha thalangu thom. the mutthaippu played almost at the end of thani avarthanam.why should it be played like that because mridangam,ghatam,ganjira,moarsing and konnakkol artists use it as well as the thavil artists.

expecting a scientific and sensible answer from our experts.

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 19 Jul 2009, 00:10

Nobody has posted anything related to this.am eager to know it still.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jul 2009, 00:14

Because you wanted a "scientific and sensible answer"

I am interested in knowing about this too. Anyone?

Muthu · Post by **Muthu** » 19 Jul 2009, 17:20

Boss, It is so simple, It is a standard indicator of phrases . After that phrase , another set of phrases played. So that singer can be prepared to resume the song and conclude. It is a customary practice. It is like a lamp flickering brightly at the end so tha you know it will end spreading light. It is just a common man explanation. Technically speaking, the first phrase is mora and the next sequence is korvai, then song and theermanam

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jul 2009, 20:53

Muthu: I like your analogy though it is a bit macabre

Which question is your answer for? I thought babaji asked two questions.

1. What is meant by the word 'abhiprayam' in the laya sense? ( I am not sure if that was part of his question or not, let us get that clarified).

2. Who first standardized those ending mohra and korvai?

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 20 Jul 2009, 10:48

Dear Members

Abhiprayam is an idea in the laya sense. It can be a laya idea for the pOrvAnga or utharAnga in a mathematical (rhythmic) pattern which we call kOrvai. Actually the Abhiprayam can also be termed as a musical idea for a given tala piece or a given kriti. An Abhiprayam which culminates with the kriti's starting point can be called "porutham". An abhiprayam also can be a kOrvai, a thErmAnam, an arudi. Abhiprayam can be one's own and can also be borrowed. It can be one's own means it comes out of the person trying to perform or person trying to produce a new rhythmic pattern hitherto unheard of. It can be borrowed in the sense that we can have an existing abhiprayam which we have been hearing for ages and then improvise upon that idea and produce a different rhythmic pattern either for pOrvAnga or utharAnga.

That is all i think about abhiprayam as of now.

I will come the the second question posed by Vasanthakokilam sir a while later.

As far as moharas and korvais are concerened they have been discussed very well in different threads in the same Tala and Laya thread under "Structuring a Korvai" and also mridangamkid has lucidly explained the moharas in one of the threads. May babaji can go through them and come back to us for further doubts.

J.Balaji

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 20 Jul 2009, 13:49

Talking from a strictly non-laya point of view, the word abhiprAyam in my understanding refers to 'estimation'. The mridangam vidwan (probably) consciously or subconsciously estimates the structure and length of whatever he is going to play so as to end at a particular point.

The nature and quality of the abhiprAyam will depend mainly on the laya jnana and prior experience of the mridangam vidwan, highly experienced vidwans can handle more complexity in lesser time, and their abhiprAyam is bound to be of a higher quality. It's basically the mathematics that takes place in the mridangist's mind as he seeks to achieve his imagination. Before he plays them physically, it gets estimated/calculated in his mind in a fraction of a second.

In my understanding, abhiprAyam cannot be a subject of instruction, the guru cannot pass on his abhiprAyam to the disciple by mere classroom teaching. It's somewhat like manodharma.

This is a complete layman's understanding of a technical term, kindly forgive if I am way off, and please correct as necessary.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 20 Jul 2009, 15:51

I dont think abhiprayam is estimation. It can be literally termed as "Opinion". I have taken it as an "Idea" in laya-sense. forgive me if i am wrong.

J.Balaji

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 20 Jul 2009, 22:59

Because Balaji sir has answered the first question, I'll try to answer the second question the best I can.

The 'Mohara' does not have to be the typical "dhi-thankita thakatharikitathaka thaka dhi...." and I have no idea where it originated - it is like asking where the normal "Tha dhin dhin na thaka dhin dhin na dhina dhin dhin na thatha dhin dhin na" originated.

However there is an actual mathematical formula one could use to make their own mohara.

Let's take Adi Thalam as an example. ( posted this about a year ago in the "What makes a thani interesting" thread)

First you must multiply the number of beats in the thalam (such as Adi 8, Rupaka 6, Kanda Chapu 5 ect...) by 8 (a constant because the mohara is typically 8 cycles long). Then subtract that number by 16 (another constant), and divide that number by 2.

So 8 * 8 is 64

Subtract 64 by 16 = 48
divide 48 by 2 = 24.

(This is where the mridangam knowledge may help)

Where in the thalam is the 24th akshara.

This is the beginning of the second Dhrithum (or the start of the Second Clap)

You have to make a.... well I'm not sure what the correct word is (theermanam maybe?) but just a phrase to fill in these 24 avarthanams (such as dhi-thankita thakathari kitathaka.....) and then for the first time around just put a "filler" for the remaining avarthanams. (such as thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom, it must be 8 akshara's to fit the thalam). Repeat this twice

The thirdtime around play the normal 24 akshara phrase, however end with "Thalongu Dhom, (only 4 akshara's). Repeat this twice

Next play only play half, so 12 akshara's (Dhi- thankita thaka tharikita thaka thalongu thom)

Then repeat, just end it off by playing a 16 akshara theermanam (Thalongu thom dhi thom, thalongu thom dhi thom, thalongu thom dhi... should start on madhyamam or half thalam)

For something such as mishra Chapu. You have 7 beats.

7*8 - 56

56 - 16 is 40

40 / 2 is 20.

This means that you play something with 20 Akshara's then add a filler (still same amount as always so Thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom would work). And follow the patterns as mentioned above

Sorry if I said this a little confusing, it's kind of tough to explain online, or maybe it's me, if someone else could explain better please do so

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 21 Jul 2009, 16:44

Mridangamkid it is really confusing how mohara is made. It is actually very simple.

I have a very simple method for doing a mohara for any tala.

Assume you want to do a mohara for Khanda Jaati Triputa Tala Chatusra Nada which has 9 beats and 36 counts in 3rd speed. Just subtract 4 from 9 which gives u 5 as the reminder. just split 5 by 2 which gives you 2 1/2 so the mohara for 9 is 2 1/2 + 2 + 2 1/2 + 2 so the total is 9. That is it. Just follow the same pattern that you play for adi tala for this tala also you can get the proper mohara. that is all and as simple as that.

If you want to do for Misra Triputa having 11 Beats per cycle subtract 11 by 4 to give 7 as the reminder and then divide 7 by 2 to give 3 1/2 as the final count. so 3 1/2 + 2 + 3 1/2 + 2 = 11

J.Balaji

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 21 Jul 2009, 20:22

What exactly is the 2 1/2 + 2 supposed to represent though?

See what I am saying is that the 24 represents the number of akshara's one must play and the 8 is the thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom filler, and just play that in the normal mohara pattern. Are we supposed to play the 2 1/2 + 2 or is that just the general pattern that one should use?

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 21 Jul 2009, 21:40

2 1/2 should be construed as in first speed that is you can even say in third speed at 10 counts + 8 counts + 10 counts + 8 counts which will also be equivalent to 36 in total for khanda jaati triputa tala. (I am consciously avoiding using aksharas and maatras since that is more confusing). we can take the 2 1/2 as 2 beats plus 1/2 and the remaining half will be a part of the next 1/2 + 1 1/2 (total 2) then again a 2 1/2 and then a 2 which is thakadina dinna dinna thom ... ending portion of mohara for one cycle.

What you are saying is in third speed of 24 and 8 which is made into 32 but which will generally be confusing and hence i have taken 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 as total counts per cycle for the respective tala and how a mohara can be made. It will be easier with lesser numbers than a mind boggling 128 in third speed of adi tala for 4 cycles.

J.Balaji

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Jul 2009, 21:54

Sri. Balaji, I have not digested what you wrote about, but as a short cut, is this same as your famous kaNakku matrix? I understood that and it was brilliant. If you say yes, I will find that post and link it here.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 21 Jul 2009, 23:53

Oh I see, so it's basically what I said but rather said in first speed rather than third speed, much easier, I always just confused when it get's into 1/2, but it is much easier.Thank you for this explanation

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 22 Jul 2009, 11:08

Member VK that kanakku matrix was different and making a mohara is different. Making a mohara has a different set of rules as myself and mridangamkid have explained in different ways. VK sir kindly tell me where you are not able to understand i shall try to explain in a different way.

J.Balaji

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 22 Jul 2009, 11:26

Dear Sri Balaji,

Just for our ready reference, the following excellent post earlier made by you (last part of post #45 in page below) would help.

http://rasikas.org/forums/post42998.html#p42998

Please do continue your excellent exposition, perhaps with other examples too. The sincere explanations of MK very well received too...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Jul 2009, 12:13

Sri. Balaji, Thanks for tha tinfo. I will re-read your posts and mridangamkid's posts.

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 12 Nov 2009, 23:44

First of all my apologies for writing late its because well i think my reason is justified because i posted this topic on the month of march and replys started pouring on july.
but i am again reading this on november of this month so i think we can celebrate this post for its time tested durability or am i kidding anyway forget it.

yes my first question was about abhiprayam what it meant.to make things simple i would like to say my feeling with this abhiprayam from what i heard amidst mrudangists.i heard them saying a mohra for some tala and then they say it in another nadai and finally in third speed to end at the point of starting a beat.why does it have to be structered like this

and since my curiosity has further been triggered by the above posts i would also like to know the evolution of these forms of mohras because just yesterday i listened to a supposed to be playing of dakshinamoorthi pillaival during 1936 and by listening to that what i could as a layman could gather was that playing in between songs and thani koraippus were not too advanced but mathematically were correct rhythms in the proper carnatic sense and they finished it without playing thi thangidathaka tarikita taka mohra which someone here says.

and yes i still want to know who found it because someone mentions tha din din tha which seems basic like 1 2 3 4 could be invented by anyone even still lets think it was gods invention.but this final theerman that mrudangists play is a concert thing and must have definitely been invented in the past.so its still a void that has not been filled. which further triggers another question.

HOW OLD IS THE MRUDANGAM! no offense to anybody am not questioning but am voicing a thought.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 13 Nov 2009, 02:42

I honestly have no idea what abhiprayam is nor have I heard the word too many time, but just from you (babaji sir) said, it sounds similar to Thrikalam? Could someone tell me if it is similar to this at all?

As for the age of the Mridangam, looking at just a historical context, we know that "mrud" means Clay and "angam" means body. If we look at Hindu scriptures, we know that the Mridangam is associated with both Lord Ganesha and Nandi, and Shiva (hence Deva Vaadyam). In my opinion then, (and this is just pure speculation), we should look at where these stories derive from. therefore, I personally feel that it has been around since the B.C era, granted the style/physical component of the instrument is completely different. Again though... pure speculation on my part, don't quote me on this.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Nov 2009, 04:12

If we look at Hindu scriptures, we know that the Mridangam is associated with...

We also find different mridangams in different parts of India, although I think that they are all double ended drums played with both hands. Thus, making the link between our present-day mridangam and scripture might cause someone to say, "not yours, it was ours that Ganesh played!"

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 13 Nov 2009, 12:14

why i raised this topic was that palghat mani iyer mama during one of his speeches which i heard sometime back(not in person but by audio)was saying that narayanswami appa was the mridangist mentioned as the forerunner.before him we don't know.so from what he said i could gather that mrudangam was noticed first with narayanswami appa and before him we don't have a clue.thats why i raised this topic.and abhiprayam and that final mohra is completely baffling me.i am not questioning anybody like i already told.its basically information and i thought there was something specific about it the way it was being played.though we all know that final mohra thing over the years has been innovated in different ways but generally sounds the same thats why i am asking then if it has been innovated then it must have initially been discovered also is'nt it.

however Nick your description about mrudangam is correct and however is a little bit vague but i think that was your idea anywway that its all about speculation.some people say lord ganesha played the Pakhawaj instrument and shiva we know played damaru however the most popular analogy would be that nandikeshwara lord shivas cosmic bull vehicle played the mrudangam famed for his laya jnana.aah but if we look at how old we got these impressions from then as you said we could get the age of mrudangam.

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 13 Nov 2009, 12:16

And Mridangamkid you don't have to call me babaji sir as babaji itself has the respectful suffix in it.hahaha......is'nt it?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Nov 2009, 13:11

The main thing about the final mohara that is fixed is the overall length and the proportions of the stanzas within it. It is a signal, and were it not recognisable, that would defeat the object, but the actual phrases played can vary slightly.

Vijayakumar · Post by **Vijayakumar** » 04 Jan 2010, 13:55

Dear babaji and others
I attended a lecture demo on "layaanubhava" by the maestro tiruchy sankaran in Krishna gana sabha last week during the music festival season here. To the question "who composed the mohra / korvai format that is there today" by one of the audience. Tiruchy sankaran says that it was his fore-guru "mamundayar pillai" who actually composed it sometime during the 1940-50s, it seems. hope you are little satisfied with this answer. He confidently replied that it was his guru's guru who actually structured the thani to the system that is played today.

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 05 Jan 2010, 15:57

Ah at last thanks vijayakumarji. So it was the great mamundia pillaival. Basically i also heard karaikudi mani sir mention that the thalangu dhina dhina thom is quite compulsory because otherwise the musician will not know how to find out the final mohra before song take off.

Tala/laya page is one of the few pages where answers are almost immediately received and highly constructive. Some more theoretical inputs from our mridangist members would be extremely appreciated.

Nandri vanakkam.