Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
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RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@349
This being a forum for discussing aspects related to carnatic music ( ragam,layam,composers, musician, concert and recording reviews and such, it is not meant for personal reminiscences of any body's friends, their woes and joys. and the reasons thereof. The 'I' should be cut-off.
------------------------------------------
The creed for CM. ( never tire of reminding ) No apologies.
Classical music is essentially a matter of Ragam . Secondly of Layam or TaLam. and only finally on theme and Lyrics.

We can have exquisite carnatic music in Instrumental play as in Flute, VeeNa and Nagaswaram. No words but only Ragam and TaaLam.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rh-h73ItTTE/ ... titled.jpg
-------------
But human mind cannot remember a tune without words and it is better that such words are of a kind that diverts our attention from animal instincts towards spiritual ideals,
Carnatic music has always held that ideal.
We cannot have 'secular' music. and vulgar dance music masquerading as ' offering to deity'!
Carnatic music then is a means for getting freedom from the four evils of 'lust, hatred, avarice and attachment'
(kaamam, krodham, lobam, moham)
,through the medium of pure music with divinity-oriented lyrics.

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 539
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

The Swan is supposed to have the sense to separate the milk from water.
I do.
You want me to believe even after reading your opinion on Devi Bhagavatam :lol: :lol:
Sanyasin-composers of CM, were not gruhathaas.
You can better read the life history of Narayana Teertha and Tyagarajar; both were gruhasthaa turned sanyasins. venkatakavi was a bachelor and not a sanyasi. If I am not wrong, Sadashiva Brahmendral too had a brief married life.
If some songs are not sung in concerts, it means that it is not suitable for such audience. A question of delicacy.
You can read the meaning of Begag javali 'samayamidhe ra ra' posted in the same forum.
There lies a difference with the kritis of Tyagarajar or Jayadeva. They all pine for the Lord; It esoterically mean 'divine unison'. Again, a tainted mind cannot appreciate.
If some songs are not sung in concerts, it means that it is not suitable for such audience. A question of delicacy.
BN group ?
and his poems were set to music much later.
They were tuned later since we have lost the original tunes. This happened with Annamacharya and Purandaradasar too. Yo will not call them as vaggeyakara? Anyhow, your opinion is immaterial.
I have read that the Nouka stuff was NOT from either Kannada or Marathi sampradhayam.
You better read the book on Nauika Caritramu by Dr Bhagavathi. Never ever give loose comments without having a sound backup.
I would like to mention that Rajaji totally rejected the idea that ' Naachiyaar Thiru mozhi', so full of erotic stuff, could have been written by ANDAL of exquisite Thiruppaavai.
This again reflects your lack of familiarity with Vaishnavite literature.

The line I quoted is from 'Thiruppavai' and not from Nachiyar Tirumozhi.

Rajaji is not an authority on Vaisnavite literature,though I respect him. You can read the commentary on Prabandas by Sri Periyavachan Pillai. I am much sure that this name will be pretty new for you. Go and search.

I never target personalities in my responses. But you forced me to do by your blasphemous comment on Devi Bhagavtam.

Dont ever call yourself as a follower of our dharma if you still hold the same view.

I would suggest you to learn languages like Sanskrit, Tamiz and Telugu to the level of understanding our scriptures. Read the commentaries, contemplate them. Then try to collate with the thoughts expressed by our composers.

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 539
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Usha PatiNayam has nothing to do with CM.
My discussion is strictly about pre-trinity, Trinity and contemporaries.
This shows your lack of acquaintance with pre-trinity composers and the contemporaries of Trinity. Melattur Venkatarama Sastri was a contemporary of Tyagarajar. Usha Parinayam has its roots in Bhagavatam and many poets from the period of Nayak dynasty has touched this theme. I am expecting a response from you that dance music cannot be equated with carnatic music :lol:
The latter aazhvars like Vipranarayana did not catch my fancy
I give least importance to individual choices.
there is no mention about Annamacharya. Even with regard to other composers, information is very scanty.
That is a proper research book and you will get perplexed if you expect fantasies. Being in an era when the publication field was in infancy, he was able to give humongous information about rare composers like Srinivasayya and ramananda Yati. This can be compared with individuals who are not even aware of common poems living in this era.
After all, he lived and created his book in the closing decades of 1890 -1900. and was a court musician. and we know that it was the court-music stuff that promotes dance and amorous themes and treatment. That applies to Swathi ThirunaaL also.
Another example to showcase your inadequacy in understanding our composers. Svati Tirunal never composed on humans. Anantapadmabha is the hero in all his padams.

Swan-hen can be applied here. You are unable to appreciate his effort to include the non - narastuti compositions and whining about the few dance compositions. Have you ever came across the kriti on Lord Krishna by Akkil Svamigal or a padam by Giriraja KAvi? You need to grow up to understand the work of Subbarama Dikshitar.

Swan - hen example is intentional as hen is worser than the duck.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@bakthim dehi

This thread is meant for Thyagaraja kritis. and my query about Nouka Charitham is relevant to this thread.
I am now going through Sri.V.Govindan's tamizh translation of Shyama Sastry songs. Have covered about ten songs. Sixty more to be done today in a blog post for quick reference. So far, I have not come across any mammal stuff .
I still stick to my opinion about devi bagavatham.
I am placing information collected in my website at
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic
I am not interested in knowing about composers not mentioned there.
Nor am I interested in Vaishnava sampradhayam over much.
So be it. if you prefer hen to a duck. 'worser' is wrong. 'just worse'.
Leave me alone. Will you?


Stop personal remarks.

RasikasModerator2
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Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 21:02

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

Ok gentlemen, that will do. First of all this is a place to celebrate music and art forms, not to preach moral science from the so called high pulpit. All your opinions are your personal views and tastes, and differences are one thing. But this need to present your selective choices as gospel truth and throw mud on both our composers and each other is regrettable. Pretence of objectivity while airing all your subjective notions is dishonest. And If you all do not want a discussion to erupt over your preferred choice of words, it would be better to avoid fuelling a fire in the first place. This applies to all of you, whether young or old.

Also it would be better to refrain from passing verdicts on matters that one is not the expert in. You may not like it or be interested in it, but If you do make such statements someone else who does know better may be compelled to respond. And then it just goes downhill. So if we want to avoid that, all of you, kindly handle your differences with more sensitivity. Or be willing to discuss and accept.

With that it would be better to stick to topic without derailing the thread into other matters. Kindly continue the discussion on Thyagaraja more fruitfully without both further moralizing, ad hominem attacks and inflammatory remarks. Thank you.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Tyagaraja - Saiva kritis (18)
Lyrics & Translation

https://shaivam.org/scripture/English-S ... iva-kritis

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@35
One can see all my previous posts in this particular thread. Purely academic and attempted ragam analysis, and just information -oriented. I hope such an attempt, ( inspired by a Shidhganag dissertation) is any thing to be condemned.
As for the discussion on Boat Song, I am actually defending Sri.Thyagaraja by surmising that these could have been interpolations by others. ( have there not been many such discussed in this forum?) After all, such spurious kritis are not uncommon in Thyagaraja kritis and MD kritis. The theme and wordings are so much out of tune with all the other kritis of Thyagaraja. I will take back my observation, if scholars in this forum, cite instances of Thyagaraja kritis having the same theme and wordings from outside the Boat Song. I am basing myself on the translation of all the available kritis by Sri.V,Govindan. If such had been the response by the first and second , it would have been educative and proper. Even now, it is not too late.
I was astonished to read that the famous and lovely tune in VaraaLi in
http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html
is said to have improper overtones! ........ Blasphemy! Not me,Sirs!
(Ref: @344->
Then there's kana kana ruchira.
God!
Last edited by RSR on 15 Dec 2019, 22:41, edited 1 time in total.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Utsava sampradAya kIrtanas of Thyagaraja
By M.M. Subramaniam and Prabhakar Chitrapu

At page 11 of -
Sri Thyagaraja Aradhana 2018
SRUTI Souvenir
http://www.sruti.org/library/Thyagaraja ... AS2018.pdf

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@358
@Prathyaksham Bala
Thank you for sending the PDF.
I am familiar with a few Uthsava Sampradhaya songs of Thyagaraja.
The information has been available in wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _Tyagaraja
I think it is quite comprehensive and I remember to have posted about this wiki page in a general-discussion thread, some time back.
I went through the articles on Utsava Sampradaya kritis and also on Nouka Charithram. in Music adademy souvenir

It is clearly mentioned by Jackson ( page-23)that it is about child Krishna. and a group of naughty gopi-girls , may be slightly elder to the boy.
probably pre-adolescent.
I have read the translation of Sri.V.Govindan. ( the specific part that is out of sync is in song 14, ). Though it is similar to the story where boy krishna stole the clothes while the ladies were taking bath, it is jarring. I have read Bagavatham long back in English translation and have been very much moved by Kunti Devi's prayer ) .
I wanted a reference to improper' situations and descriptions by Thyagaraja Swami outside the Boat song.
Now that I am having the list of Utsava Sampradaya kritis, I will go through the translations by Sri.Govindan and shall give the summary in his own words in a web-page for that.
All the while, my interest has been on the music aspect and not on lyrics and meaning as Telugu is not my mother tongue.
Thank you .
Today, I created two pages in blogger
https://shyamasastrysongs.blogspot.com/ ... to-42.html
https://shyamasastrysongs.blogspot.com/ ... ge_14.html
I did not find a single instance of any improper description or wording.
How could it be ? as he was singing and imploring to his Mother.

---------------
In case you feel that I have missed the import of your indication, kindly send the opening line of the song. I can then get the wording and meaning from Sri.V.Govindan's blog.
Thank you.

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

Since you find the Bhagavatam surprising, one thing to note there is that Krishna is a complete foil to Rama. If Rama lived by the book, Krishna exists only to remind us that no book is bigger than the one who wrote it. In Krishnavatara, all the rules are broken. In Rama, shringAra exists only as passive charm. In Krishna, it is an adventure. Rama is straightforward, Krishna cunning. Rama does not know who He is and acts like a principled man. Krishna knows and acts as a law unto Himself.

Pure emotion, or rasa does not know morality. It is actually madness. I know that sounds shocking, but that is true. It is only the awareness side that stops the emotional side from causing a chaotic mess. Otherwise rasa was never logical. While publicly all keep it hidden for privacy and social stability, these rasas are a reality inside every one. And in art and spirituality they find expression in ways that cannot cause problems.

The law book is made by the logical dimension of life, not the artistic. But Art always flows through and beyond paradigms. The Divine is the same, makes the rules and breaks them too.

There is a section of society who finds vAtsalya and sakhya rasa blasphemy - they want their ultimate being to be an overlord that they fear. There are those who find deity worship or even the concept of God in form disgusting - their logical ideas of infinity are limited to formlessness. I am sure kaNNappa nAyanmar considering what all he did would have shocked the orthodoxy. These days if we try to talk of divinity as a man, I am sure a lot of people will get offended by that also. Fortunately we are prepared. :lol:

And on it goes... this debate is no different. Everyone wants the truth to be the way they feel. And yet again and again divinity (and art) proves itself to be beyond the reach of the mind and intelligence, befuddling those who try to frame it.

Everything Krishna did is impossible for anyone else - this is why he alone is the subject of shringAra and the hero of all rasa. It takes the whole sarva dharman parityajya mAm ekam sharanam vraja to a whole other level. What is proper or improper after that may be left to the wisdom of the Creator present within and not our ideas of what that truth should be like. For that you would need to come to Skanda 11 of the Bhagavata. Some people have attained that surrender through jnAnA, some attained through yoga, and the gopis have attained through shringAra. Only Krishna opens up this possibility.

Most devotees and enlightened masters were considered outlaws to the society of their times in their own ways. That is why so many people tried to kill them.

I wonder if you have forgotten your favourite Meera bhajans by your favourite singer "vish kA pyaala rANAji ne bhEja, pibata meera hAsi re pag ghunghuroo rE" - I think you have not yet seen all of Meera's lyrics. Perhaps that is why they were outraged by her.

The point is this -- Therefore the mood of compositions on Rama will be different from those of Krishna and the songs on Krishna will be different in character from those on Vishnu. The mood of sAdinchanE for e.g. is different from the other pancharatnams. There are other songs also, like jutA murArE, written in nAyikA bhAva.

With this piece of harikatha, I am done arguing with you. Back to Thyagaraja. We have the statement of Walajapet Venkataramana Bhagavatar who stayed with his guru for decades about what Thyagaraja has composed (and we know now which tunes sung today aren't his either). He has clearly stated his guru has composed 2 operas - Prahlada Bhakti Vijayam and Nauka Charitram. We do not need more proof than that, nor can greater proof be furnished.

Now if you do not prefer the theme of the boat epic, you are most welcome to skip it. We don't mind. Most of the CM world I believe also thinks similarly at least in public performance, although unlike you, they do not want to admit it. That is why they are rarely sung in concerts. But any other proof you want is entirely to satisfy your own mind and any conclusions you make out of it are your own opinions only. You can't say that the proof means it should fit into your stated conditions. We can't accept that as truth. Proof is what we have and you may accept it, or don't.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
https://saranaagathi.com/2008/01/31/tex ... -uploaded/

This gives links to two pdf files –
1. Tyagaraja Utsava Kirtanas in Telugu with notations.
2. Tyagaraja Kritis Collection in Telugu

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@360
Ancient lore of India have been Valmiki RamayaNam and Mahabaratham only. ( we have to go back to at least 600 BC. ( pre-Buddhist). As for VishNu, I think it is Vishnupuranam. ( said to have been written around 300 AD). Unlike Valmiki Ramayanam, the Mahabaratha has had a number of additions and recentions. As Jawaharlal correctly observes in his chapters on Upanishads, the Epics and Gita, in his Discovery Of India, the Gita has been the guide to life. Both RamayaNam and Gita reject absolute non-violence as preached by Jainism Buddhism and the Gospel according to St.Mathew. Lokamanya Tilak ( Gita Rahasya) and Aurbinda Ghosh taught us that Kshathriya Dharmam is not-sinful as a true warrior resorts to violence NOT for his personal ends but for rooting out the oppressors. of common people. Surprisingly, Jawaharlal ( my only guide) has written beautifully both on saints like St.Francis of Assissi and of the Jesuists!
Bankim's Vandemaatharam is Mother-worship. and Shyama Sastry songs are in the same tradition.
Thyagarajas swami 's creations are musical offerings on Ramayanam theme.
Actually we do not know who wrote Bagavatham. but there are so many charming episodes in Bagavatham ( I do not think, these are covered in Mahabaratha..I may be wrong, ) all about the childhood exploits of Balakrishna. The tradition followed by Marathi bakthi poets, Uduppi and Guruvatyoor do not give much focus on the Rasaleela . Generally, the stories like lifting Govardhana giri, dancing on kaliaya, and such are given more importance. Silappathikaram also treats the theme with least coarseness.
-------------------------------------------------------
For our national leaders all through, Gita has been the guide to life. either through Bakthi Yogam, Gnana Yogam, Karma Yogam and Sankya Yogam. Rarely through Raja yogam (Hata yogam). I follow Vinoba Bhave's famous discourses on Gita. mostly based on the Marathi tradition of Baktha Vijayam. The Ramakrishna Mission volunteers are following the path shown by Paramahamsa and Vivekananda.
Thyagaraja Swami lived a very long life and it is mentioned, that he had about 30 and more disciples. In this thread itself, there are posts about 'newly discovered', kritis from the same Sourashtra Saba library.
but rejected by famous scholars in this thread. I will give the post numbers soon. All that we have to do is to go through all the earlier posts in this thread to doubt the authenticity of all the songs that go by the name of Thyagaraja kriti. Most of the direct and indirect disciples composed in Telugu. and I remember that even a late 20th century musician created 'Thyagaraja kritis' and admitted to the fact. It requires great scholarship, dedication and time to remove any spurious additions.
There is no reference to Nauka Charithram in SSP
----------
When dealing with the description of women, the rule has been laid down by our great composers what to describe and what not to describe.. It is not against affection, matrimonial bond, romance but explicit use of words of carnal import. I wonder if I have made my meaning clear. This forum has mixed readership and I cannot say expatiate more .
Have we not read Kalki's immortal romances, Sivakaamiyin Sabadham, Ponniyin Selvan, Alai Osai? Has he ever used coarse description of women? Are not the great lady characters of Shakespeare's plays, great novelists like Scott, Dickens, Emile Bronte, Russian novelists like Tolstoy , Turgenev, Gogol, and Pastenak our guide ? Do we not find the difference when reading James Joyce and Emile Zola? The Lyricist /poet / writer has to appeal yo finer sentiments rather than carnal aspects. I hope that you understand Tamil. I would strongly recommend Janakiraman's 'Anbe aaramudhe' novel to understand my point. and the entire classics of Bankim, Tagore and of course the great Sarath Chandra. ( who has dealt with rather delicate themes in a dozen of his novels , all speaking for the cause of women... but of a different kind, Pather Dhapi, Charithra heen, Sesha Prasna, Dena Phona, Pahli Samaj, Parineetha, Srikantha, Nishkruthi) . What relevance do these have to Thyagaraja kritis?
They do. For the Trinity gave great respect to Women. bordering on Worship and the dance tradition does not.
There are two types of varnams. Shyama Sastry varnams were meant to be sung, not for dance.
It is also notable that most of the pada varnams are post-trinity.
The topic of boat song is closed for me also. with the submission that a few songs might have been inserted later. by one of his disciples. I am guided in this matter by your own posts.
( edited to remove reference to Narayaneeyam. ( being a condensed version of Bagavatha puranam), it also includes gopika incidents to some extent.
Last edited by RSR on 17 Dec 2019, 17:47, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@SrinathK
And what about almost all varnams? Almost all of them are shringAra themed
Just last night I had very carefully read the tamil translations of Shyama Sastry songs -all the 71 and created a page for quick reference in blogger.
There is absolutely no shringAra in any of his songs- certainly not in any of his famous varNams.
'

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Tyagaraja kritis—some misinterpretations
By R. Vedavalli

"It is important to understand that Tyagaraja lived a simple life and followed the bhagavata sampradaya. He did not possess occult powers nor did he perform miracles.

"Because of the nature of his compositions and his own personality, legends and anecdotes started growing around the songs.

"We must view Tyagaraja as a fine musician and as one who helped preserve and create ragas."


https://dhvaniohio.org/wp-content/uploa ... garaja.pdf

SrinathK
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

RSR wrote: 16 Dec 2019, 23:05 @SrinathK
And what about almost all varnams? Almost all of them are shringAra themed
Just last night I had very carefully read the tamil translations of Shyama Sastry songs -all the 71 and created a page for quick reference in blogger.
There is absolutely no shringAra in any of his songs- certainly not in any of his famous varNams.
'
Obviously. dEvi is like that.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@364
-----------------------------------------------
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... thyagaraja

I have given the BEST biographical outline and Thyagarajaswami;s music at the above page in my website.

Hoping that it will be useful.
-----------------------------
Where can I get Prof.V.RAGAVAN;'S book on Thyagaraja swami and also that of Prof.Samnamurthy, free on line?

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

removed the link to english translation of narayaneeyam.
Last edited by RSR on 17 Dec 2019, 17:49, edited 1 time in total.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Mods:
Post #367 may be moved to the thread 'Narayaneeyam' - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9792&p=124319&hili ... am#p124319

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli ... e_djvu.txt
(Full text of "Tyagaraja Life And Lyrics" --WILLIAM J.JACKSON
--------------------------------------------
Unique among the books on Thyagaraja, I found this book ,valuable in its treatment of economic, political and social conditions prevailing in Thyagaraja Swami's area in Tanjore delto during his lifetime.
And quite a few translations of Thyagaraja kritis that are in common vogue.
------------
earlier discussion
viewtopic.php?t=16053
Last edited by RSR on 18 Dec 2019, 11:19, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

In continuation of @366
It is just possible that the Boat Song series was the creation of his prime disciple. (Walajapet) ( a careful word by word reading of the blog of SSRao with an open mind, gives that impression to me). It may be checked up if the Boat song series are mentioned and treated in the other two schools , which have been discussed earlier in this thread. ( Thillaisthaanam and Umayalpuram)
Kindly go through ssrao's writeup on Venkataramana Bagavathar's musical creations.

https://sreenivasaraos.com/2015/02/22/s ... iii-music/
24-2
===
"Sri Venkataramana Bhagavatar was a reputed musician and a composer in his own right. His output, in Sanskrit and Telugu, was not only prolific but was also varied. Besides the well known Ragas, he was adept in handling rare Ragas like: Saraswathi, Kamala-manohari, Nama-narayani, Jyothi-svarupini and Suvarnangi.

It is said; more than about 15o of his compositions have been traced. Apart from Kritis, his works include Tana Varnams, Pada Varnams, Svarajatis, and Tillanas, cast in different moulds. Most of his compositions are in praise of Krishna, his chosen deity, and on his Guru Sri Tyagaraja"
"Venkataramana Bhagavatar was highly appreciated by the great
composer who is said to have bestowed on him his full blessing.
There is however another view whidi says that 'Nowkadiaritram' is
totally original creation of Tyagaraja, not derived from any other
source."^^ Actually it is said that tlie palm-leaf manuscript with
Sanskrit verses was the work of Venkataramana Bhagavatar himself
to add to the reputation of his Guru.")?)
page-37 of a shodhganga paper on disciples of Thyagaraja swami quoted by sreenivasarao.s
It was from the Walajapet collections – preserved at Sourashtra Sabha Museum- that the existence of three Geya-natakas (operas) – Prahlada Bhakti Vijayam; Nauka Charitram; and, Sitarama Vijayam – came to light . While the texts of the first two operas have been published, the text of Sita Rama Vijayam is yet to be traced fully.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
When this boat obsession will end ?

To summarise : The Member opines that the Nauka Charitram, ascribed to Tyagaraja, might have been written by someone else.

And this point of view is emphasized again and again and ... ... ...

It is time to move on.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@371
To summarise : The Member opines that the Nauka Charitram, ascribed to Tyagaraja, might have been written by someone else.
Till the requested references from other sources are given . Just because, it comes from Sourashtra museum, it cannot be taken as the work of Thyagaraja Swami. Assuming for a while that the boat song was created by Venkataramana Bagavathar, ( and mis-attributed to his Guru), it is very likely because Thyagaraja Swami is not credited with any songs in dance tradition but all his disciples specialized in that. Thyagaraja Swami had a revulsion for things like javali and tillanas. Second point is that Venkataramana Bagavathar was a Krishna baktha rather than a Rama Baktha.
The composers and performers of the three main disciples and also of manambuchavadi line are well known.
So, scholars just have to illuminate on this point that the boat song was really the creation of Thyagaraja Swami. and atleast a few fragments of the opera have been sung/used by writers / artistes of the other schools of Thyagaraja disciples.
Why stifle the discussion?

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Happened to read the posts on Venkataramana Bagavathar
#17
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9269
Post by S.Govindaswamy » 22 May 2009, 06:41
When I visited Madurai recently I heard that the kritis of Thyagaraja in palm leaf manuscript form are preserved at Madurai Saurashtra Sabha. I also heard that some people are claiming that Venkataramana Bhagavathar was the Vaggeyakara whose kritis are wrongly attributed to Thyagaraja. I also understand that the people in charge in this sabha are doing pooja to these manuscripts but not allowing anybody access to these. How far are these true
Govindaswamy

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Sanskrit Krithis of Saint Thyagaraja Compiled by P.R.Ramachander
http://translationsofsomesongsofcarntic ... araja.html
We have with us about 700 Krithis of Thyagaraja . Almost all of them are written in Telugu, which is the mother tougue of the saint . Only 40 of the available 675 Krithis have been written in Sanskrit . They are :-

1. Giriraja Sutha - Bangala
2. Janaki Ramana - Suddha Seemanthini
3. Sudha Madhurya - Sindhu Ramakriya
4. Naada Thanumanisam - Siddha Ranjani
5. Sri Raghuvara Suguna - Bhairavi
6. Samajavaragamana - Hindolam
7. Sri Narada Naadha - Kaanada
8. Mrudu Bhashana - Maruva Dhanyasi
9. Sujana Jeevana - Kamas
10.Sri Raghuvara - Kambhoji
11.Niravathi Sukadha - Ravichandrika
12.Sundaradara Deham - PanthuVarali
13.Devadhi Deva Sadasiva- Sindhu Ramakriya
14.Jagadhanandha - Naatai
15.Bale Balendhu - RithiGowla
16.Deva Sri Tapastirtha - Madhyamavathi
17.Mahitha Pravrutha - Kambhoji
18.Sambho Mahadeva - PanthuVarali
19.Ehi Trijagadeesa - Saranga
20.Sive Pahimam - Kalyani
21.Eesha Pahimam - Kalyani
22,Namo namo Raghavaya anisam - DEsiya Thodi
23,THva dasoham -Punnagavaralu
24.Manasa sanchara re –Punnaga varali
25.Dheena janavana sri Rama -Bhoopalam
26.Pahi pahi dheena bandho -SAurashtram
27.Bhaja Ramam sathatham -Huseni
28.Sundara Dasaratha Nandana -kapi
29.Rama yeva daivatham -Balahamsa
30.Paripalaya Dasarathe –Sankara bharanam
31.Sri Raghu vara Dasarathe -SAnkarabharana,
32.Pahi Ramachandra Palitha-Sankarabharanam
33.Gatha mohasritha - SAnkarabharanam
34.Vara leelaa , ghaana leela SAnkarabharanam
35.Sri Rama Rama jagathaa -Poorna chandrika
36.Palaya Sri Raghu veera –Deva gandhari
37.Pahi paramathma sathatham - varali
38.Pahi Rama dhootha Jagatprana-Vasantha Varali
39.Jaya Mangalam Nithya Shubha mangalam-Gantaa
40.Ksheera sagara vihara -Ananda BHairavi

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

A very fine post in Dr.Pasupathy's blog
https://s-pasupathy.blogspot.com/2017/01/106.html
Sri.C.R.Srinivasa Iengar writes about the way in which we should approach and understand Thyagaraja Swami's kritis.
Fairly lengthy article and in Tamizh.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Not so fast. @SrinathK

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

Deleted.

ajaysimha
Posts: 831
Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by ajaysimha »

Does anyone have a proper recording of evarito ne delpudu rama in manavati ragam.
Sung in proper pace and sahithyam should be given importance

I know that most of the recording are available,
but there are a few mistakes that they commonly make.

Most common one is guNa maya may(A)mbuda
Which should be sung as guNa maya mAy(A)mbuda

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Many of us would have heard of Prof.V.Ragavan's book ' The Spiritual heritage of Thyagaraja'. This was actually a ten part introductory essay to the pioneering effort of Sri.C.Ramanujachariyar, a top-grade Civil Servant, and renowned Social worker who was in charge of administering the Ramakrishna Mission Students' home at Mylapore, in providing the English translation of around 650 kritis of Thyagaraja Swami.
While searching for Sanskrit kritis of Thyagaraja, , stumbled upon this free PDF which contains a short foreword by Prof. Radhakrishnan and a preface + 9 chapters on the Spiritual heritage of Thyagaraja by Prof.Raghavan and then followed by the English translation. by Sri.C.Ramanujachariar.

https://ia902601.us.archive.org/3/items ... garaja.pdf

----------------------------------------
A very nice blog post by SriramV on C.Ramanujachariar is given below.
SPIRITUAL HERITAGE OF THYAGARAJA
C.RAMANUJACHARIYAR
https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2008/07/2 ... -the-book/

an excerpt from the blog
The book was the brainchild of C Ramanujachariar (1875-1956), a man of many parts. Born in Kolattur, he graduated from the Madras Presidency College and joined as a clerk in the Madras Secretariat from which post he rose to become the Under Secretary, Department of Law and Education. He was passionate about the fine arts and he used them to good effect to channel resources for another passion of his – the Ramakrishna Mission Students Home, Mylapore. This institution, which completed 100 years in 2005 was conceived by C Ramaswami Iyengar, Ramanujachariar’s cousin and when he was struck by paralysis in 1926, the latter took on the burden of running the institution and putting it on firm ground. The story of how he convinced Musiri Subramania Iyer to travel to Malaysia on a concert series to collect funds for the Home is well known. He also ran an amateur drama troupe called the Madras Secretariat Party later renamed as the Ramakrishna Kripa Amateurs, which staged plays regularly and collected money for the Home. Besides these activities, Ramanujachariar was the prime mover in getting music recognised as a subject by the Madras University and it was largely thanks to him that the Music Department of the Madras University came up in 1932. He did the same for the Annamalai University as well.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Dr.P.P.Narayanaswami has contributed a nice article in Sruti(USA) on songs by Thyagaraja Swami on deities other than Lord RAmA.
------------
For easier access and reading, I have placed it in

https://4musicpages.blogspot.com/2020/0 ... ja-by.html

To the best of my knowledge, there is no song on Goddess Lakshmi.
So the sanskrit kriti on Lakshmi is most likely to be spurious.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

Was Nouka Charithamu written by Thyagaraja Swami? - A quest
===========================================
A) How many songs are there in this group?
------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _Tyagaraja
The following songs have been listed under Nouka Charitham.
1) Srungarinchu koni vedaliri Surati Telugu
2) Aadavaarella goodi Yadhu kula Khamboji Telugu
3) Choodare chelulaaraa Yamuna Panthuvarali Telugu
4) Yemani nera nammu kondhumu Saurashtram Telugu
5) Yememo theliyaka balikedharu Saurashtram Telugu
6) ōḍanu jaripē mucchaṭa kanarē Sāranga Telugu
7) Thanayandhe premayanusu Bhairavi Telugu
8) Yenomu nochithmo chelula Punnagavarali Telugu
9) cālu cālu nī yuktulu ీ కృష్ణా Sāvēri Telugu
10) Choothamu rare yi vedkanu Kapi -------------- ?
----------
11)evaru manaku samānami Dēvagāndhāri Telugu
12) Unnathavuna nunda niyyadhu Gantaa
...................................................... ?
13) Alla kallolamayenamma Saurashtram .......................................... ?
14) perugu pAlu bujiyinchi Gantaa
........................................................ ?
15) kRshNA mAkEmi dhova baluku Punnagavarali ............................................. ?
16) indukEmi sEtu mamma Varali
..................................................... ?
17) vEda vAkyamani yenchiri Mohana
............................................................ ?
18) hari hari nIyokka divya Punnagavarali ......................................... ?
19) gandhamu puyyarugā pannīru Punnāga Varāḷi Telugu
20) ghuma ghumayani vasanatho Saurashtram ........................... ?
21) mA kulamuna kiha pramosagina Surati Telugu
============================================
For the songs listed in
10, 12,13,14,15,16,17,18 and 20--- the language column has been left blank
.
=============================================
I will try to find out from Sri.Govindan's blog . and also from other sources like
http://translationsofsomesongsofcarntic ... araja.html
=====================================
I need time.
--------------
Are the such kritis in Sourashra language?
If yes, Is it possible that Thyagaraja Swami composed in the Sourashtra language ? If not, can we conclude that they were the creations of WVRB?
On googling for Sourashtra language, I landed in the page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saurashtra_language
------------------
and the following para.
The earliest available Saurashtra literature that survives to
this date is the Saurashtra translation of the great Sanskrit epic of Ramayana. It was written by Venkatasoori Swamigal (1800 AD), a Sanskrit
scholar and disciple of Venkataramana Bhagavathar who lived in Ayyampettai of Thanjavur district.[13]
------------------------------
Let me check up with translations and then revert back.

http://translationsofsomesongsofcarntic ... araja.html

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Looks like a scribbled notepad.
There is no need to record all the steps taken in the speculative quest. On completion, and arriving at a conclusion, the details may be recorded elsewhere and just a link can be given here for the benefit of those interested.

RasikasModerator2
Posts: 151
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 21:02

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 24 Jan 2020, 17:45 Looks like a scribbled notepad.
There is no need to record all the steps taken in the speculative quest. On completion, and arriving at a conclusion, the details may be recorded elsewhere and just a link can be given here for the benefit of those interested.
I think it is not necessary to record every entry in the diary here either. It will freeze the whole thread on this topic at this rate as well as the other one.

There also has to be room for others to contribute. With Thyagaraja having nearly 700 songs to his credit and a lot of material emerging all the time, there is plenty for the thread to explore. So let it not get stuck here.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@383
It is not fair. I am not using any offensive remark on anybody.
Others are quite free to post on Thyagaraja kritis, if they want.
Forum is meant for discussion. I referred to Music academy journal and found a book review on the topic. It says that the entire piece is in the handwriting of WVRB. Thyagaraja Swami had more than 20 direct disciples. like Manambuchavadi. and Lalgudi and many more. I just would like to know if the vocalists from such schools have really sung any of the 20-21 kritis in that group. or if there are any other manuscripts. other than from WVRB. Dr.Bagawathi's PhD thesis simply says that there are marathi sources for the theme of the opera. It has never been performed . Moreover, Dr.Raghavan clearly says it was taken from some Bengali or Assamese source. None of my requests for clarification have been acceded to.
The forum thread is meant for sharing of information. I have spent a lot of time in analysing the single-kriti ragams and corresponding kritis. And have found that the Trinity did not prefer scales having r1r2,g1g2,m1m2,d1d2 and n1,n2 in succession. Out of 72 , there are only 32 scales which are not vivadi. Moreover, all the three preferred the M1 set rather than the M2 set.
All these points I have mentioned in my previous posts. Such may be useful to students and learners of CM Trinity kritis.
Shows that I do not make off-the-cuff remarks but share the findings and analysis. I have given links to my websites also.
I do not think, the objection to my posts is tenable.
------------
Though it is not pertinent to this particular thread, Mods can have a look at Musicians section and see that 'sweetsong' is swamping any other posts on the musicians of the Golden Era.
-------------

RasikasModerator2
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

It is not to stop discussions. Just this. Dr. Bhagavathy's thesis is a 320 page book. A lot of other topics need to be understood in addition as well.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

@38
There will be no more posts by me ,in threads on Thyagaraja in this forum.
Sri.TS.Parthasarathy, review has these significant sentences.
that it is based on a manuscript written by Valajapet Venkataramana Bhagavatar, in his own hand writing.
( Does it prove that it was composed by the Bard?)
"Strangely enough, the first compositions of Tyagaraja to be printed were his operas. The first edition of the Nauka Charitram was printed in 1870 by Vavilla Ramaswami. Several other editions followed but the most widely used one is that of Prof. P. Sambamurti published in 1939 and reprinted in 1962 and 1984.
The Nauka Charitram is on one Act and the story has no basis in the Bhagavatam. Anecdotes about Krishna’s excursion with Gopis in a boat on the river Yamuna are current in some schools of north Indian Vaish- navism. There is a Bengali kirtan called ‘Nauka Vilas Pala’. In an edition of the play (1933) based on a manuscript in the Sarasvati Mahal Library of Thanjavur the editors mentioned that there was a Marathi Prabhanda called ‘Nauka nirupana* by Ananda Tanaya of Ami."
Do the so-called originals have the dirty 'disrobing' anecdote? May not.
Unless some reference is in public domain, it is no use quoting them

---------------------
I have already placed much material on Thyagaraja in my site
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic
and cmhm4me.
As the google 'classic' sites may be closed any time, I am creating a blog in blogger. exclusively for Thyagaraja.
cmbard.blogspot.com
Thanks.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by SrinathK »

None of my requests for clarification have been acceded to.
Whatever is given you deny it and don't accept and ask for new proof on your terms only. You do not do the hard work of researching manuscripts but those who do, you do not agree. You also present a slanted version of the existing material suggesting some things which it does not. You make statements about works you have not yet read. And you demand we should only stick from 1900-1960. What can we all do? We tried our best.

I am going to get a copy of that book by Dr. Bhagavathy now.
Last edited by SrinathK on 27 Jan 2020, 17:29, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by RSR »

NOTHING. IT IS NOT GOING TO MAKE THE SLIGHTEST DIFFERENCE TO ME.
DONT TROUBLE YOURSELF.
Actually, the theme of Thyagaraja is almost closed.
unless one accepts my basic stance that The TRINITY could never have composed any song with vulgarity in words or thoughts
Wealth of information , especially a great article co,mparing Thyagaraja and Purandaradasa by Mysore Vasudevachar is there. in 1947 music academy issue.
---
I learn things from the web only.
------
When there are literally 1200 kritis of the Trinity, to be classified, compared, translated and presented ( not in alphabetical order)
but on other aspects of Ragam etc, ( I may be the first to have attempted!). the very choice of the so-called Opera , is an indication. of the pre-disposition. of the Researcher.
That is what Marx correctly observes on his work on Religion.
He was not questioning the integrity of the mystical experience but pointing out that the state of ecstasy can only be experienced and not made a subject of Experiment. William James 'Varieties of Religious experiences' is a very valuable work. ( He was brother of the novelist Henry James)
And many may not know that Marx was mightily proud of German Classical music ! I will be placing it in one of my blogs at
rsrblogs.wordpress in a few days with additional notes.


@ajaysimha has restarted an old thread on JavaLi, Padam and varNams.( General discussion today).Read all the posts there.

However much either you or any other person goads me, this is my last-last post in this thread.
I have to do a tremendous amount of work for atleast a month on
Thyagaraja kritis .in my blog.



1) The list of songs with ragam, taLam and even the rendition is available in sangeethapriya Thyagaraja kriti site. with a brief introduction by Prof.Sambamurthy as to how the Bard taught.
2) Sri.V.Govindan's translation and transliteration is available.
3) Prof.Raghavan also has given reference to a number of kritis with their ragams and theme.
4) Jackson's translation is available .
5) Ramanhujachariar's translation is available.
6) Raachandran's translation of many are available.
7) Specific grouping as Divya Nama sankeerthanam, Utsava Sampradaya kritis and Kshetra kritis have been very nicely classified even in wiki.
Except Prhlada Bakthi vijayam, other operas do not count for me.
Let me have some mental peace.
People can wallow in their srungara scholarship as much as they want.

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
'evarunnAru brOva' on Lord PancanadIsha (Shiva)

by : Thiruvengadu Jayaraman
https://youtu.be/-wWgBzjXwt0?t=19

Lyrics :
P:
evarunnAru brOva inta tAmasamElanayya

AP:
vivarambuga delpavayya vishvEshvara shrI pancanadIsha

C:
manasAraga dhyAnimpa manasu nilupu marmambu delipi
tanavADanE talaci dhairya mosagu tyAgarAja vinuta

Meaning :
Who is there to protect me? Why this delay to protect me? Tell me, O Lord of the whole world, Lord PanchanadIsha ! To meditate whole-heartedly, to stabilize the mind and worship you, give me determination, O One hailed by Tyagaraja.
           (from Compositions of Tyagaraja by TK Govinda Rao.)

https://karnatik.com/c2327.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
‘kOri sEvimparArE’ on Lord Sundaramurti (Shiva) of Kovur

By: Voleti Venkatesvarulu
https://youtu.be/ULUZi0oVuv4?t=1

Lyrics:
P:
kOri sEvimparArE kOrka lIDEra

AP:
shrI ramanI karamau kOvUri sundara mUrtini

C:
suralu veyi vannE bangAru virulacE pUjincaga bhUsurulu sanakAdi mauni varulu nutimpa sirulittunani
koluvai unDu shrI saundarya nAyikA varuni shrI tyAgarAja varaduni paramAtmuni haruni

Meaning:
Let us worship together for the fulfilment of our prayers, the Lord SundarEshvara of the wealth and beauty-rich Kovur ! As the divines worship with golden flowers, people who are divine like on earth and Sanakaadi sages hailing, accompanied by Shri Sowndaryanaayaki, One Who bestows grace on Tyagaraja, the Supreme, the Hara is staying majestically.
           (from Compositions of Tyagaraja by TK Govinda Rao.)

https://karnatik.com/c2407.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
‘shambhO shiva shankara’

By: Mangalam Shankar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT9vI-K-nSs

Lyrics;
Meaning by T K Govinda Rao :
https://karnatik.com/c2802.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
‘nammi vachchina’ on Lord Sundareshwara (Shiva) of Kovur

Rendered by : Prof. T. R. Subramaniam
https://youtu.be/7_3bQfB8jsE?t=1

Lyrics;
Meaning by T K Govinda Rao :
https://karnatik.com/c2583.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
dEvAdi dEva sadAshiva

Rendered by : R K Srikantan
https://youtu.be/co-QF02ai0c?t=1

Lyrics;
Meaning by T K Govinda Rao :
https://karnatik.com/c2257.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
shambhO mahAdEva shankara

Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar
M.S. Gopalakrishnan
T.V. Gopalakrishnan
https://youtu.be/tPyCU3lva0w?t=1

Lyrics;
Meaning by T K Govinda Rao :
https://karnatik.com/c1442.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
raga sudhArasa on Lord Sadashiva

S G Kittappa
https://youtu.be/RHfUMJNwPOk?t=1

Lyrics;
Meaning by T K Govinda Rao :
https://karnatik.com/c2735.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
dEva shrI tapastIrthapura nivAsa on Lord Shiva

Suguna Varadachari
https://youtu.be/9_an_gc4gxg?t=1

Lyrics & Meaning :
https://karnatik.com/c2259.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
ilalO pranatArti on Lord Panchanadeesha (Shiva)

Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer
from 22:21 to 32:24 at :
https://youtu.be/8mU-XNYkqWc?t=1341

Lyrics & Meaning :
https://karnatik.com/c2350.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
darshanamu sEya nA taramA on Lord Shiva

Chittoor Subramania Pillai
(P AP C3)
https://youtu.be/2POu5uZlAgM?t=1

Lyrics & Meaning :
https://karnatik.com/c2249.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
‘Ehi trijagadIsha’ on Lord PancanadIsha (Shiva) of Tiruvaiyaru

Bangalore Brothers - M B Hariharan & S Ashok
https://youtu.be/cpxdS0NIUy0?t=14

Lyrics & Meaning :
https://karnatik.com/c2272.shtml

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Thyagaraja (Krithis)

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
sadAmadin dalatu on Lord Shiva

T V Gopalakrishnan
https://youtu.be/PZMjmatczS4?t=50

Lyrics & Meaning :
https://karnatik.com/c1512.shtml

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