Kutcheri Pieces

kardha · Post by **kardha** » 17 Oct 2008, 00:58

In kutcheris often times one sings a "main" song + a "sub-main" song. Are there rules as to what ragams those should be? Some say that the ragams should be "sympathetic"? How do you determine which two ragams could go well together as parts of a kutcheri? To what extent is it OK to sing two ragams that are not "sympathetic"? is it OK to sing just ragam for one and do nereval, swaram, alapana for the other even if they are "unsympathetic"?

Ex. shanmukhapriya w/kambodhi?
shanmukhapriya w/karaharapriya?
shanmukhapriya w/kalyani?

Thanks in advance

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 20 Oct 2008, 10:33

There are no hard and fast rules - the general idea is to avoid ragas that sound similar one after the other and ensure that ragas are evenly distributed in terms of scales. Similarly Main/sub-main should ideally be in ragas that are reasonably different - e.g Kambhoji/Sanarabharanam, Thodi/Bhairavi, Bhairavi/Kharaharapriya/Mukhari are combinations that can make a kutchery repetitive. It is also common to choose a Pratimadhyama for the main/sub-main.

I am not sure what the term "sympathetic" refers to...regd combinations referred to above Shanmukhapriya/Kambhoji looks like a good submain/main combo...Shanmukhapriya/Kalyani - it is not common to see 2 main pieces being taken up in pratimadhyama ragas but this particular combo does not seem inappropriate in any way. Kharaharapriya-Shanmukhapriya, OTOH are actually somewhat related in terms of swarasthanas (only 2 notes are different)...can't see anything wrong with this combination though - especially if they are sperated by 2-3 pieces in the middle...

I might be missing out on some nuances but ultimately, the combinations matter only to a certain extent and there are no hard and fast rules....

Priya_s · Post by **Priya_s** » 13 Dec 2008, 16:36

Can DEVA DEVA KALAYAMITHE kriti of swathi tirunal be used as a main piece in a concert? In other words can mayamalava gowla come as the main piece (in particular deva deva)?

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 13 Dec 2008, 16:49

why not?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Dec 2008, 22:02

Vijay: I just happened to catch your observations on this topic. I can relate to what you say about Kambhoji/S'baranam and Bhairavi/Mukhari. But I thought k'priya/bhairavi and bhairavi/thodi are different enough ( sharing of notes notwithstanding ) not to sound repetitive. But I agree it is rare to have someone sing those combinations as sub-main/main. ( probably Ariyakudi is an exception )

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 14 Dec 2008, 12:22

Like I said, no hard and fast rules - there have been entire concerts on a single ragas which have been runaway successes. I remember TNS' 4 hour concert on Kharaharapriya getting rave reviews in 1999.

That said, the above combos are somewhat uncommon - Kpriya and Bhairavi differ by only "half a note" althought, thanks to Thyagaraja's brilliance, they sound completely different. I remember reacting with surprise when I realized how close they were. Someday I will try and delve into exactly how that was achieved. Treatment of D2 and G2R2 and SG2R2G2 and jandais to my mind account for a large part of the difference.

Thodi and Bhairavi have a few differences on the surface but the flavour is quite similar - many novices tend to confuse the 2 ragas as I myself tended to when I started out.

poornashadjam · Post by **poornashadjam** » 14 Dec 2008, 12:48

I have heard TRS ji singing Bahudari and Nagaswaravali in the same concert . SImilarly Tanjore Sankara Iyer ji has sung Bhupalam , Revagupthi and Bauli all one after the other in one of his concert. But these were not the main items.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Dec 2008, 13:21

Vijay: understood. Even outside of the repetitiveness angle, those are part of the major raga set and artists normally ( ariyakudi being the exception ) do not choose those as Sub-main/Main combo.

I have this abstract notion of 4 clusters of ragas on M1 around these melas: 8, 15, 20-22 and 28-29, while giving Bhairavi its own special cluster. But my own conception of similar/different is not based on precise swaras or melas but more on the fuzzy and vague notions of aesthetics they create. I do share the astonishment with you how small swara differences contribute to highly leveraged aesthetic differences.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 14 Dec 2008, 13:27

Vidwans, to demonstrate their talent have sung allied rAgas in the same concert, or even in succession. The rudrapatnam brothers sang surutti followed by a Kedaragaula. I have heard Hyderabad brothers sing Saurashtra and then Devagandhari.
Choice of 'main' and 'sub-main' are all irrelevant if the treatment of the raga and the krthi are good and aesthetically satisfying. The best of krthis can sound lackadaisical with an inept rendition, while very ordinary compositions, have been polished and elevated because of good handling by the performers.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 14 Dec 2008, 21:23

VK you probably meant 20 (Natabhairavi) and not 21 (Kiravani) - as a cluster the former has far more janyas.

Keerthi, I did not think of Saurashtram and Devagandhari as similar until I saw your post! Perhaps the SN3D2N2,D2P phrase makes them sound a little close...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Dec 2008, 22:25

Yes, vijay, I meant to write 20-22. I have fixed my post now.

I did not realize that Saurashtram and Devagandhari are considered allied/similar either. But then I don't catch on to such alliedness by myself until someone points it out. e.g. Suratti-KG-Desh

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 26 Jun 2009, 11:04

Priya_s wrote:Can DEVA DEVA KALAYAMITHE kriti of swathi tirunal be used as a main piece in a concert? In other words can mayamalava gowla come as the main piece (in particular deva deva)?

It would depend on the length of the concert in my opinion. For example it might sound okayfor a 45 min - 1hr 15 min concert but singing it as the main piece in a 3hr+ concert wont sound that good. There is certainly nothing wrong with singing mayamalavagowla as the main ragam but in a longer concert a composition like meru samana might be a more appropriate choice. 2 kalai krithis also give more scope for manodharmam aspects.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 26 Jun 2009, 16:06

Well, I have perfomed Veena concerts where I have played 'dEva dEva' as sub-main. I think mAyAmAlavagowla is best suited as a sub-main raga - without too much exploring but giving the raga an apt role in the concert.