Kampitas and Gamakas

[msakella]

As this is a very important topic I would like to open a seperate thread on this topic.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, Sundar Krishnan, Even though I truly intend to stop I feel it as my duty to make the possible clarification in these lines, as far my knowledge goes, in respect of these Kampitas or Gamakas at the least being the first person to coin these relevant names, categorise, define these 60 varieties of Kampitas and Gamakas along with a separate set of symbols and relevant audio clippings in my CD, AMS Easy Methods-2007.
In Sampradaya-gamaka the upper and the lower limits of the swing of M1 are P and G3 only but while playing different Sangathis it may have to down-glide (not a mixture of ups and downs) from any upper note basing upon the relevant shades of a particular Raga. The explanation ‘Sangathis are sort of based on fixed swarams for that Ragam’ has to be modified ‘Sangathis are sort of based on fixed shades of Svaras for that Ragam’. amsharma.

[twister]

As this is a very important topic I would like to open a seperate thread on this topic.

Please could you provide us with links to sources where it is possible to get the very basic gamakas (with audio examples, preferably) for the basic (the first to learn) mela ragas?

For example, could anyone please explain what are the basic (or, the most common) gamakas for the ragas Bhairvi, Shanmukhapriyaa, Yaman?

Thank you!

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, twister, Please go through the link - http://www.sangeethamshare.org/chandra/ ... hods-2007/ and download all the files along with the pdf files in English. This has been brought out to be helpful to the aspirants who, irrespective of any holidays, can sincerely and regularly practice for more than 2 hours daily up to Gitas and 4 hours daily upto Varnas and 6 hours daily beyond Varnas even without depending upon the money-minded music-teacher. One cannot and should not learn car-driving as a hobby bringing his own and others lives into risk and in the same manner, even to get the basic level of knowledge, one must work very hard in music. To an intelligent, single-minded and hard working boy 6 months period is more than enough to cover the contents of this CD and another 6 months to become able to sing Svarakalpana with easy muktayis and brief Ragalapana efficiently.Unless a person practises cycling on his own he cannot cycle efficiently. amsharma.

[msakella]

Dear b/s-members, In the process of evolution of our Indian music, now, we have been using different kinds of Kampitas and Gamakas and the age old Dashavidha-gamakas and Panchadasha-gamakas are in no way cater our present day needs. In general, irrespective of the place or cast or religion, the elders always struggle hard in making the matters easier to their kids. But, to our misfortune, our elders did never care to categorise or to symbolize them to make them easy to utilize and follow for a common man. More over, they are always used to tell that it is not at all possible to write our compositions in notation and also that it is not at all healthy to follow notation. By all this, ultimately and very sadly, we have become unable to properly document our music for the posterity. Now, we do not know in full detail how our Great Trinity sang their compositions. Even now, if we do not do the needful sincerely and efficiently in this respect, no doubt, we will also be blamed by our kids in which way we are, now, blaming our elders.
Thinking on these lines I have struggled very hard for years and found a way out for this problem on my own. Thus, with my very limited knowledge, I have ventured to categorize and symbolize all these Kampitas and Gamakas and furnished 60 varieties of them in my CD, AMS Easy Methods-2007 along with respective pdf and audio files which is available from http://sangeethamshare.org/chandra/AMS- "¦ hods-2007/. However, I dare not tell that I have covered all the varieties of them and that my act in this respect is final.
So, I request all the stalwarts and knowledgeable persons of music kindly to look into this matter seriously and find a way out for this problem which can be followed by even a common man. I am always ready for any discussion upon the categorization and symbolization I have already made. Only to expedite this process I have started this separate thread in this forum and I hereby welcome all the like-minded people to work hard in this respect for the posterity. amsharma.

[twister]

Unless a person practises cycling on his own he cannot cycle efficiently.

Dear Msakella,

Thank you very much for the job you've done in the name of Nada!!!

I hope that my zeal will be strong enough to explore the deep waters of your work so kindly provided to me. Again, thank you!

As for my actual practice, it is quite regular - I devote to it all the time I have, actually. BTW, I am an instrumentalist, and the struggle is hard

By now, I can quite easily find the swarams to the raga I hear and construct its aroha-avaroha, I even can do something like Svarakalpana, a kind of jugglery with swaram based on their weights, when bound to a certain rhythm.. But, it is still "something like", really..

I believe, that methods which your kindly provided, should really increase my understanding and practice

And, good luck to you, too!

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, twister, I have experimented upon many students in respect of making them able to sing Svarakalpana after finishing 10 varnas and only 5 or 6 small Kritis and successfully found that it becomes more easier if they start with already composed ‘easy-muktayis’ if their rhythmical abilities are good enough in rendering Jati-alankaras in Chaturashra and Trisra-gatis consecutively. For this purpose I have furnished the symbolised ‘easy-muktayis’ for 6 popular Talas in my book, Sangita Svararaga Sudha (English/Telugu) supplied along with 9 pre-recorded casstees containing notated Ragalapanas of 36 Ragas also along with these ‘easy-muktayis’. By this easy method the young aspirants will become able to sing Svarakalpana on their own within a duration of 3 months and Ragalapana in another 3 months. Some of these ‘easy-muktayis’ are also furnished in my CD, AMS Easy Mehtods-2007 from item Nos.153 to 176 which you can download from http://sangeethamshare.org/chandra/AMS- ... hods-2007/ and use them. amsharma

[twister]

Dear Msakella,

Thank you again, and another important question is concerning the organization of the daily practice routine. It is uncertain to me, what is the best approach to most effectively spend the available time. In the very beginning the mind appears to be not so concentrated and the body not so responsive, so it is all to concentrate and warm.

But when it is done, there are two extreme opposites occur: the first is to scrap the technical exercises and "todo"s as a boring "must", and the second is to dive directly into the improvisation without too much of consciousness control. How to avoid this? How to organize the practice time?

Thank you!

[twister]

And, should I always practice with the rhythm support?

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, twister, An instrumentalist should never try to, somehow, avoid the regular practice. It is always suicidal to do so. He/She should never even think of it. Generally, the younger aspirants below 10 years of age are always used to do whatever they are told lest they will be punished and also they are not aware of the ‘fast-getting-of-anything’. But the elders being very well aware of the ‘fast-getting-of everything’ always wish to get every thing very fast and also to avoid any kind of physical or mental exertion which are at very high level either in music or dance. Generally, the elders are more inquisitive in knowing things and seeing things but not in doing things.
Now, I am of 70 years of age and till now I did never have the experience of ‘bore’. I can tell you something if at all you can practice very regularly. Car-driving should never be learnt as a hobby and music or dance is also like that.
In which way every musician practices along with shruti-instrument in the same way he/she must practice along with a rhythmical-instrument also. But, even though shruti-instrument has never been avoided by the musicians rhythmical-instrument was not used in the olden days as such instrument has never been brought out in our country. Later, even though such rhythmical-instument, Metronome was invented and available many of the musicians do not prefer to practice along with it as it is not that easy to go along with it. Even though most of the performers avoid this Metronome being unable to get used to it I do not understand why the music-teachers, who are supposed to train their students and shape them as efficient teachers and performers, also avoid this rhythmical-instrument. May be of the same defect of being unable to get used to it.
Here, at Hyderabad, nearly 30 years back a young lady, who had already learnt half-a-dozen Varnas and one-dozen Kritis, had approached an efficient, sincere and reputed music teacher and requested him to teach her music. In general, music or dance-teachers never refuse anybody to teach lest they loose their income. But, this music teacher, having tested her and finding her defective abilities, bluntly refused to teach. But, this lady returned back, established a music-school herself, started teaching a number of students and, since then, has been sending them to appear for various music-examinations and earning a lot. Who ever cannot get success as a performer immediately transforms as a reputed teacher and it is a birth-right to teach music or dance. Even though there are ways to curb this menace all these un-successful performers and even successful performers agitate their level best to obstruct as none of them agree that a performer may not be a successful teacher and vice-versa. amsharma

[twister]

An instrumentalist should never try to, somehow, avoid the regular practice. It is always suicidal to do so. He/She should never even think of it. Generally, the younger aspirants below 10 years of age are always used to do whatever they are told lest they will be punished and also they are not aware of the ‘fast-getting-of-anything’. But the elders being very well aware of the ‘fast-getting-of everything’ always wish to get every thing very fast and also to avoid any kind of physical or mental exertion which are at very high level either in music or dance. Generally, the elders are more inquisitive in knowing things and seeing things but not in doing things.
Now, I am of 70 years of age and till now I did never have the experience of ‘bore’. I can tell you something if at all you can practice very regularly. Car-driving should never be learnt as a hobby and music or dance is also like that.

Dear msakella,

Yes, I do completely agree, more by token, I am three times younger than you

Even though most of the performers avoid this Metronome being unable to get used to it I do not understand why the music-teachers, who are supposed to train their students and shape them as efficient teachers and performers, also avoid this rhythmical-instrument.

But, as for the metronome.. It can't make me feel the pulse! Yes, it clicks in the background, but I'm seem to be unable to fit my notes into these one-two. Even if I try and concentrate on it, I just cannot go on with this - I find a pulse and it lays down across the metornome, not fitted to its actual simple dual meter. I would better prefer to practice over a simple drum loop, which have a certain pattern. Where I can grasp the weak, the strong beats, the intermediate ones and the relation between them. Then, this becomes a fun, a jugglery, but i guess a very useful kind of fun - a play which learns really. Not an effort and not a looseness.

Don't know.. Maybe you're right and I should train my concentration even using this simple tick-tock. Sigh.. But.. There is really no interesting relation between those clicks! Just like black and white..

Maybe a "talameter" could be a more interesting stuff, but here where I am situated it's not a trivial task to get one...

[twister]

In general, music or dance-teachers never refuse anybody to teach lest they loose their income.

Yes. I have had a misfortune to be under such a "tutorship", based on disappointed ambitions mostly, coupled with at least a good income appetite (and, at worst - a simple greed).

Guess it should be a good karma, to meet a worth-while teacher, when you spell Teacher via the capital first letter, really. Someday, somehow.. Maybe in the future, maybe never..

[twister]

"Who can do - does, who cannot - teaches, who cannot teach - manage." H. L. Mencken's Law

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, twister, There is some meaning if I feel disgusted to practice at this old age. But, if you also feel disgusted to practice at this youger age what does it mean? No, you should not do so. One should always try to be ideal in doing things and making a mark of his own in his respective field. Proceed and hit it.
If you prefer to have a drum-loop of certain pattern as a metre have it and practise regularly. Practise is a must either with a metronome or with a drum-loop.
Always try to choose a better teacher basing upon the results you get and making the process quicker in teaching.
Wish you all the best, amsharma

[twister]

And, check out this one - one of my favorite, too:

to avoid mistakes, you should gain experience; to gain experience, you should do mistakes (Peter's Competence Principle)

[twister]

Wish you all the best, amsharma

Thank you! Wish you, too

[VK RAMAN]

nick H wrote:
There is such a simple cure for all of these ills: to learn the music just for the love of the music, rather than for the vanity of self or family, or with expectations of stardom

[vasanthakokilam]

twister: In a recent light music concert, the person managing all the synthesizer stuff had a bank of mridangam loops. They were studio recorded and very well rendered. It sounded very good. I do not know where to purchase them. He said he got them from his friends from the Chennai film industry.

[Geethas]

Please suggest when is the right time to start Gamaka and Kapithas. My 10 year old son is into 'learning fllute' and will be starting Varnas in next 15 days.

Thanks for all suggestions.

[msakella]

In fact, there is a certain purpose in following the seriatim from Saralees to Keertanas. That is qualitative-teaching but not quantitave-teaching at all. Only the qualitative-teaching makes the process of teaching music TIME-BOUND AND RESULT-ORIENTED which has never been done previously. Teaching or learning all these items must pave way mainly for Svarakalpana and Ragalapana which are more important than the remaining, Tanam, Pallavai and Niraval of Manodharma-sangita. To make the teaching/learning process easier to the aspirant upto Gitas no Kampitas or Gamakas should be taught as the aspirant is a newly born baby in music who is just trying to stand on his own legs and just trying to walk a very little with great difficulty. The music-teacher must be able to assess his abilities or dis-abilities at this age and guide him properly which is not being done by many. Except beats, even rendering Talas also should not be taught at this age. But, how many of the money-minded teachers follow this? This is the most pitiable state of affairs of the music-teachers. People may think of me otherwise, but, I cannot call them music-teachers but music-teasers. amsharma

[msakella]

My dear brother-member, Rasika911, As per my little knowledge in the ocean of our Karnataka music, in the absence of any symbolised system of notation and for the first time in the history, I dared to categorise the different kinds of oscillations of our notes to make it easily accessible even to a common man. In this task, at the first instance, I have made two divisions, i.e., Kampitas and Gamakas and in all I have made 11 divisions and 60 symbols starting from 395th to 454th audio file of my CD, AMS easy methods-2007 basing upon different shapes of the symbols. Even now I cannot declare that this maximum number is enough to cater the needs of our Karnataka music and many a time I also wrote the same in my posts elsewhere in these columns. But, instead, I am unable to understand any musician telling "60 symbolised gamakas are not required for the learning of carnatic music"

[srikant1987]

Memorising techniques to produce 60 gamakas out of context, and employing them to play an alapanai is like playing carrom board by measuring friction coefficent between the board and the coins, the striker, the paint on the board against the coins and the striker, the coefficient of restitution of collision between coins and between coins and the striker and then, after performing calculations for a few hours, determining at what angle to strike with how much force.

[bahudari]

@srikant

you can author a book "Carrom playing easy methods" and notate all the strokes, angles, board conditions, amount of powder, wood the board is made up of, etc, etc....

[vasanthakokilam]

When someone does a good thing, why are you two making fun of it? In this case, it reflects poorly that you have not really gone through the material at hand since your remarks seem to be just some off-hand comments reflecting your personal opinions on such matters. In general I feel compelled to stand up in support of good efforts in documentation, communication and organization ( an easy thing to stand up in support of, of course. ).

Indian music, espcecially Carnatic music is notorious for people claiming the impossibility of notating the music. It has gone on for centuries. What is the result? There is a lot of confusing terminology, imprecise notations and a general impression that the music itself is way too technical and complicated. Here is someone like msakella who has put in years of work in classifying the various gamakas and notating them and it is a monumental piece of work. I am a bit dismayed that not too many people are taking notice of it let alone bashing it without even taking a serious look at it.

No one in their right mind will claim that the music can be notated at its lowest level of detail and all you need is a robot to reproduce all that. If you look at students' music note books, especially instrumentalists, you will see various gamaka notations that they invent themselves. A lot of times, for many gamakas and such techniques, they can not think of any way to notate them, so they leave it out but just learn to play it by copying the teacher. Years later, after they lost touch with a song, they struggle to reproduce those gamakas. A lot of people wish that they had taken the pains to notate those things properly.

Also, people seem to be confusing details on technique with the music itself. These notations are about the techniques of gamaka and kampita and where and when it is used. Music itself, in its live form, rides on top of such techniques and should not be confused with the technique itself.

SSP made a valliant attempt at the same problem but it does not seem to be sufficient. msakella has moved that state of the art forward by a huge distance. Let us use it, discuss it and ask questions about it. I am sure msakella will be more than willing to answer our questions. I think carnatic music is better off with such efforts at notations. Such a notation scheme is a great communications tool that benefits all future generations.

[gn.sn42]

In general I feel compelled to stand up in support of good efforts in documentation, communication and organization

Me, too.

I'd go a bit further and say I support any and all efforts (not just good ones) to provide documentation and analysis - which is why I find this forum so valuable . As individuals, we will have our preferences and biases, and may like some works more than others.

Facetious reactions are only to be expected. Yet it's a bit unfair to target an academic work. If one wished to make a better carrom board (or paint or striker) one would be well served by a thorough understanding of the things srikant1987 mocks...

[srikant1987]

Yet it's a bit unfair to target an academic work. If one wished to make a better carrom board (or paint or striker) one would be well served by a thorough understanding of the things srikant1987 mocks...

That is true.

As an academic work, analysing and notating 60 different kinds of gamakas is a huge thing to do.

But to employ all these out of memory in actual playing / singing will be almost impossible.

[msakella]

In my 30s I was one of the top-rank carroms player having defeated each and every recoginised champion I came across with nil-score. But, being an Indian, I personally feel ashamed for the illogical comparison between carroms and our sacred music of our great ancient culture.

Many a time it has been proved that, nowadays, it is very difficult to find people even on finger-counts who take the things positively leave alone appreciating or following accordingly. Of course, among many other things, passing on comments is also the birth right of everybody. But, most unfortunately, like all other things, this also is being misused without any exception.

Even though all the compositions of Saint Thyagaraja are told to have come out of his mouth spontaneously on their own without being sat at one place and struggled hard with all the words while composing them like all other composers, as many versions of notations as the number of artists are available now for many of the compositions. Each and every musician is fully aware that this all happened in the absence of a sencitive and effective system of notation for proper documentation. But, very sadly, since many centuries, none of the musicians had every thought of doing the needful in this direction. As, somebody must bell the cat, I thought why I should not do this and, with the help of my very limited knowledge and extensive hard work for many years, brought out something. I did never tell my version only is the final and I myself am very doubtful that mine is not sufficient at all. Of course, even then there are people to make a fun of my hard work telling ‘60 symbolised gamakas are not required for the learning of carnatic music’.

OK. At this juncture, now, to put a full-stop to all such insencitive gossips, I am compelled to make an open challenge. I shall pay an amount of one Lakh rupees to a mediator and any Karnataka musician, who wants to prove these 60 symbolised Gamakas are not required for the learning of carnatic music, also has to pay only an amount of fifty thousands of rupees to the same mediator. Later, a convenient date will be fixed and in an open meeting on that date to be held at Hyderabad with local Vidwans in our Karnataka music, I shall demonstrate all these 60 facets of oscillations and prove that each one of them is essential for the learning of Karnataka music and the opponent also has to demonstrate all these 60 facets of oscillations and prove that they are not required for the learning of carnatic music. If I fail the opponent gets the entire amount of one Lakh and fifty-thousand rupees from the mediator and if he fails I shall get the entire amount. Any person who is interested in participating in this contest contact me through these columns. amsharma

[srikant1987]

Let me give another analogy. I've heard this from a teacher in the first class I had with them.

There was this man who never found peace of mind, and went to a swamiji for advice.

The swamiji asked him to read the Gita and the eleven principal Upanishads, preferably out of an edition containing the original Sanskrit text as well as the English translations (since this man in question was familiar with English).

The man went to a bookstore, and asked the shopkeeper how much all these books would cost, and was a little disappointed to know that his bill would run into thousands of rupees.

So in the end, he asked the shopkeeper if he had a single book containing all the words, with their English translations. The shopkeeper brought him a Sanskrit-English dictionary, priced at Rs 600. This man bought the book and charmed by his smartness, returned home.

[msakella]

Your latest analogy absolutely suits not only the present system of notation but also the people who cannot bear with any other novel method, though suitable to our needs, or understand it or find it possible to follow. Most unfortunately, their mind set is such. amsharma

[valliRCN]

AMS Wrote,
" But, to our misfortune, our elders did never care to categorise or to symbolize them to make them easy to utilize and follow for a common man. More over, they are always used to tell that it is not at all possible to write our compositions in notation and also that it is not at all healthy to follow notation. By all this, ultimately and very sadly, we have become unable to properly document our music for the posterity. Now, we do not know in full detail how our Great Trinity sang their compositions. Even now, if we do not do the needful sincerely and efficiently in this respect, no doubt, we will also be blamed by our kids in which way we are, now, blaming our elders".

Shri AMS

and Every one should try to understand that our elders are right , because , this music itslef based on a "Bhakti Rasa". Many writers have expressed thier bhakthi in differnet moods which we see in kritis. Bhakti do not have brakes,comas, and fullstops. Every one can express thier bahkti in the form of kritis or slokas. There is no limitiation for writers. For example apart from our trinity or other writers now,Shri.Balamurali has its own kritis. Bhakthi is a flow of mood and manodharma expression. One should know the basic and needful system to know or learn carnatic music and not complicated at begining level. If one has the capacity to write or understand the notation he can excell in this music, since thousands of kritis are available and many will come . The basic music is based on manodharam. By writing notation people will just copy it and they will not try to understand the basic menaning of carnatic music.
That is the reason our elders have not wasted time in writing the notation and no one is balming our elders except akella. Our elders have expressed thier levl of bhakti towards different gods in the way of kritis. We have sufficient and required documentation for this music and nothing more is required. Just practice avialble systems and show your levle of bahkti towrads god in the form of carnatic music. If you have capacity write some more good kritis . Notation will come automaticlly if any one puts his brain and heart into music.

Many music styles in the world went through various changes because of their basic meaning and today people get board with it. But Our caranatic music never looked for changes . That is the cpacity of the bhakti rasa and no one required to change it . Respect our elders that is more and more than enough for our carnatic music.

[vasanthakokilam]

That is the reason our elders have not wasted time in writing the notation and no one is balming our elders except akella. Our elders have expressed thier levl of bhakti towards different gods in the way of kritis. We have sufficient and required documentation for this music and nothing more is required. Just practice avialble systems and show your levle of bahkti towrads god in the form of carnatic music. If you have capacity write some more good kritis . Notation will come automaticlly if any one puts his brain and heart into music.

You say "no one is balming our elders except akella". Add me to that list.

BTW, it is not a blame game. The notation is all about documenting what we have.

How do you actually know, in the absence of such documentation, what we have today is same or similar to what the composers composed 200+ years back? It is all faith at that point. There is a recording of 'Nannu Palimpa' from the early part of last century by one of the great musicians of that time. It sounds quite different from the MSS version, for example. This kind of change always happens. Notations do not stop such changes but atleast we know how it was song then and how it is being sung now.

srikant, though your analogy is instructive and I can see where you are going with it, I do not think it is a case against notation schemes.

I will engage in a conversation with you on this on a serious basis if you tell me that you have taken a sincere look at Sri. Akella's notation scheme, study it and try to use it. If not please do so. We can then talk about the merits of such a scheme. Without that, this kind of discussion in a vacuum is a waste of time and energy.

[Rasika911]

For notation to be used effectively the student of music has to be of a certain level in the first place. Carnatic music cannot be learnt by looking at a book with notation and 60 symbols for gamakams. If you give a kid a book with notation of kaddanuvarki and they sing it the way it should then you have found something very special.
The only good thing about notating is that it can help the carnatic music system retain the scarce number of compositions and ensure that we do not loose any gems. That being said, there are many high tech recording systems availible in this day an age and im sure almost everybody would like to learn from an audio file than a book with notations. In this audio file there can be pauses, explanations of sangathis, swaras, raga lakshna, and any type of gamakam you like.

[vasanthakokilam]

Rasika911: That is all true but you are still missing the point of notations.

[valliRCN]

Vasanthakokilam

Rasika911 is right.

We need notation for few gems of sahitya/kritis where a carnatic musician/student can croscheck or refer his capability / level of manodharma or to recognise swaras for sahitay. This notation writting by a single musician can not be acceptable and it has to be from the matured team of musicians mutuallu making a notation documentaion for needful kritis will help the music student. Otherwise every musician like akella says , I am right and i am right and in between the student will get spoil his brain. A Conceptually strong learning music system certainly makes an individual to reproduce his knowledge. Gamakas are the part of manodharma flow where , how and how many gamakas will have to apply will be known slowly . Overnight making a musician with shortcuts may not be use full in longer run . Our sahitya is rich one and it has alsways a reasonale documentation. For how many kritis one can writte notation. Music is ocean .But Now a days many musicians are encashing the weekness of the people in the form ofeasy methods/ writting notaions etc.., Look into Dr.pinakapani notaions , Shri.Nedunuri,Balamurali and from the books availablewith book stalls. The notations are not same for a similary kritis and it differes. Notation writing is nothing but just dictating the student to follow it wihout asking him to show his manodharama.One should first understand the Dharma of " Carnatic Muisic". It is Bhakti Dharma/Rasa and no one can scale it in individuals perfection. It is a flow.Just flow. A person has to reach certain manodharma level then he himself will creat different swara and gamakas to present himslef. By writing gamakas and notations you are limiting the individuals creativity of Bhava rasa ,listening and understanding of sahitya meaning. This is not at all a good practice. Easy methods will always vanish easily. Please do not under estimate our elders for not writting notation. Do not think they are incapable. They are more intelligent than the present generation and they know the meaning of our carnatic music. Let this continue as it is. You have to respect and analyse the mind sets of our elders in a meaning full direction and not meaning less. If you want to present your bhakti by putting breakes,comas and fullstops in the name of gamakaa and notaion, What is it to be called ? A Bhakthi or Bhukti ?

[srikant1987]

@ Vasanthakokilam

OK, but where are details of the scheme? Do I need to buy Akella ji's book, or can I get a sneak peak? For example, how would "vara vINA" be notated in this scheme? And how is it played (since that also differs between various people, let alone schools)?

Somehow the whole effort seems to be something like setting up a coaching centre for music along the lines of what we have for various engineering entrance examinations in our country.

[arunk]

> By writing gamakas and notations you are limiting the individuals creativity of Bhava rasa ,listening and understanding of sahitya
> meaning
It is indeed a double-edged sword. But then when you learn a krithi, you are to strictly adhere to what the teacher wants at that time. If he/she teaches a sangati, when you learn it, you are expected to grasp it exactly, precisely like how he/she wants it. And this would be different as per different patantra. Representing these in a notation (if scheme is standardized which always takes time, all versions should be representable) really does NOT change this. Now once a a student is proficient, he/she is able to apply additional interpretations which can vary in proportion from rendition to rendition - but this depends on the student/musician, the tradition of the patantra etc. Some would reproduce krithi portions almost exacly the same every time, others add embellishment depending on mood etc. This doesnt immediately invalidate say a notational representation what he/she learned totally. That can still be a reference.

But I think the fact that versions of a patantra undergo changes as it passed generation to generation (because of added personal interpretation), in spite of the general intent to NOT do that (i.e. every "traditional" patantra wants its versions authenticity to remain so) is for many parts due to lack of a notational scheme. Now, either we drop the charade that we preserve things exactly (which btw is fine ), or we try to add techniques that really help us preserve things better. Saying "no need to do this because we never did it before" is fine by me - but we cannot also complete that sentence by as "and we have preserved the authenticity of the patantras". That would be playing it both ways IMO.

In my personal opinion, I do agree with the gist that CM has a culture of a lot of personal interpretation - in fact I like that a lot about it. From that perspective, yes notations have a limited scope - but I think they are still quite useful w.r.t preservation (but I also see the point that audio recordings can do a better job also).

Arun

[Rasika911]

Rasika911: That is all true but you are still missing the point of notations.

What is the point im lost

valliRCN i dont think compositions deserve alot of respect and we must stick to what has been given to us. Adding our own sangathis is not required and can spoil the composition or deviate from what the composer had set to achieve.

[srikant1987]

Adding our own sangathis is not required and can spoil the composition or deviate from what the composer had set to achieve.

How do we know what the composer had set to achieve?

If we become sincere composers ourselves, we would probably understand. But then again, different composers might have different priorities.

[vasanthakokilam]

@ Vasanthakokilam

OK, but where are details of the scheme? Do I need to buy Akella ji's book, or can I get a sneak peak? For example, how would "vara vINA" be notated in this scheme? And how is it played (since that also differs between various people, let alone schools)?

Somehow the whole effort seems to be something like setting up a coaching centre for music along the lines of what we have for various engineering entrance examinations in our country.

The entire AMS Easy Methods 2007 CD is free for download: http://www.sangeethamshare.org/chandra/ ... hods-2007/

Look for the PDF Symbolised-Kampitas-and-Gamakas--English---60-items.pdf towards the end of the page. Each of the symbols has a corresponding audio file where msakella has sung that particular gamaka and kampita. The audio file number is there in the pdf document for easy reference and download.

I wish you had reserved your second comment until you had a chance to look at it, use it, experience it and then come to such conclusions.
Let me sincerely request you one thing: DO NOT go there with the mindset of looking for positive evidence for what you have been writing here. That will be a waste of time.
Go there with a curiosity of what it is about and allow yourself considerable soak time.

Rasika911 and valliRCN: Take a good hard look at the above document with a clear and inquisitive mind and again, do not look for clues to justify the judgements you had already arrived at.

We will discuss then. The discussion can then center of the specifics and on the method itself rather than vague notions about it. Of course, if you still think it is not useful for you, you can always drop it and go back to whatever other methods you have been using.

[VK RAMAN]

So every singer should mind read the composer and know what the composer had set to achieve!

[srikant1987]

I would like to know where the gamakam 456 for kaishiki nishada is used.

[msakella]

I am very highly surprised to know that you are unable to locate the Gamaka of Kashiki-nishada in 456th audio file. amsharma

[vasanthakokilam]

I think srikant found the audio file and he is asking examples of usage...

Srikant: Start with the document Varnas-and-Svarajati-along-with-symbols-English-109-items.pdf and look for that ornamentation symbol on top of Nishada for the answer to your question.
I saw one immediately upon opening the document in the notation for the Nattakurinji varnam. You can then download the audio files for the varnam and listen to the use of the gamaka in that context.

Rasika911: Hope this also answers your question about the point of notations along with the audio files. Basically, msakella has done what you are saying about using modern technology with audio files . He has in fact gone one step ahead and provided video files. The notational system is there so it can scale across many varnams, swarajathi and compositions.

msakella has put in a lot of thought in selecting the 10 pieces to notate so most of, if not all, the gamakas and kampitas find usage. Darbar, thodi, begada, bhairavi, saveri, shankarabaranam, kalyani, nattakurinji, kambhoji.... he has covered the gamut. Every time I look at it, it comes across as the most brilliant work on music education that has ever been attempted. In addition, it is concise and comprehensive. This type of material, going by other teaching materials, should cost a lot of money but msakella is giving it away for free. That itself is worth falling off the chair you are sitting on!

The price he is charging is zero and the value one can derive from it is unmeasurable.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, I do not know whether any other person had truly fallen off his chair, but, I had truly fallen off the chair I am sitting on on going through the penultimate para of your post.
In fact, I myself feel greatly surprised to know that I, with the help of my very limited knwoledge and only by the grace of the Almighty, am truly able to serve our people very efficiently, honestly, sincerely and loyally and every obstruction came in-between is nothing but adding another dish to the delicious meal. But, among all, I am surprised to observe you as the first person to properly assess my work in every aspect. There may be many other people to support in general but, no doubt, your support is a knowledgeable one. Thanks a lot. amsharma

[svkashyap]

The price he is charging is zero and the value one can derive from it is unmeasurable.

100% true. I was looking at the pdf where Sir has given 27 types of ornamentation of kaishaki nishada. What are the numbers indicated on Ni in this file. Please point me to the audio of the same if it is in the same location.

[vasanthakokilam]

msakellaji, you are most welcome, it is an honor to talk about your work.

svkashyap, for example, if the pdf says "18. (472).....", then look for the audio file 472-Kaishiki-Nishada.mp3 in the same location.

You can see all these notations used in varnams and swarajathis here: http://www.sangeethamshare.org/chandra/ ... -items.pdf

If you find a symbol, for example in the darbar varnam notation, you can listen to the Darbar instrutions in the files whose name start with 200 thru 210.
Those details of what file contains what are in the index file: http://www.sangeethamshare.org/chandra/ ... to-481.txt

[svkashyap]

@vasanthakokilam

Thanks. what do the numbers 56 and 25 on N2 and S indicate? Please point me to the file where I should look for this.

56 25
04. (458) P D2 N2 S

[vasanthakokilam]

svkashyap, the gamaka and kampita symbols are given numbers and they run serially from 01 to 60. The numbers you are referring to are those symbol numbers. These symbols are not just for Nishada, those are applicable for many other swaras as well. Those details and the master list are in : http://www.sangeethamshare.org/chandra/ ... -items.pdf

As you will see, this document refers to audio files as well covering other swaras used in many other ragas.

[Rasika911]

Why arent there sahithyam for the varnams?

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, Rasika911, Have you really and personally gone through the pdf file ‘Varnas and Svarajati along with symbols-English-109 items’ or conniving with somebody to allege me again. amsharma