ghanTa

Rāga related discussions
arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Could it not be that the asaveri, punnagavarali, dhanyasi etc could have been derived from Ghanta, for the purpose of fitting into the mathematical framework (melakarta system) of our minds
No that is a wild jump in logic to reach a favorable conclusion :) Things just dont work that way (fitting into mela system etc.). Besides all these other ragas are pretty old too.
I have is that Ghanta does not have any scales as such; could that be because it never fit into the melakarta scheme? And given that there is effort to classify every raga into the melakarta, it would make sense that it is slowly being sidelined because it does not essentially fit in...
Ahiri and probably also asAveri fall into this category also. As I mentioned before this is no reason for loss in prominence. Things like this just happen - somehow at some point in time, the stars were aligned such that probably ghaNTA slowly lost out in a popularity contest to these others (and may be other ragas). Same with nArAyaNagowLa.

mELa system is a loose theoretical framework applied on top of existing practice (which was already highly refined). Note also that the framework itself changed and evolved other the centuries. It seemed always as just a way of grouping ragas or musical entities - something that was always done (right from bharatA). But IMO, the framework itself never was that strong an influence on practice (except perhaps much much later as in recent times).
> They do overlap and similarities are unavoidable, but how you tread within those overlapping regions is also ?
> quite important.
Arun, can you elaborate on what you see are the overlapping rules in this case?
There are no "fixed" rules - the rules are specific to the ragas in play themselves. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can enlighten better, but this was just my way of saying how very similar ragas, with very similar (or identical) phrases, can (and should) sound melodically different particularly in those phrases. The difference lies in how the swaras are navigated, and rendered i.e.. as-in the gamakas; and also other rules like which swaras can be elongated, rested upon (nyAsa) in which raga etc.

So a same phrase that from s' to p viai n2 and d1, can vary between tODi, Ahiri and dhanyasi (again, i am using the the example dr.S.Ramanathan uses). In Ahiri "ni" is the key, and it is rendered in a way very unique to Ahiri; in dhanyAsi "da" must be emphasized on the way down. Now for tODi if you emphasize da on the way down, you run into the danger of sounding like dhanyAsi - wrong even if tODi is the big, bad boy :)

Similar things also apply to most popular dEvagAndAri/Arabhi and nAyaki/darbAr combo (i am not that knowledgeable to give you specific examples here).

Different, subtle gamakas that establish melodic individuality are the hallmark of these rakthi ragas. They probably were refined over time and are in place to set a specific mood or rasa. It is quite clear to me that ghaNTA most definitely falls into this category, but seems to have lost clarity mainly due to loss in individuality.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 12 Sep 2006, 02:46, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

ninja,

i see now you were asking about rules *in this case*. which i missed and started with a more basic explanation. Sorry!

Also rules about this case, i am sorry again - i really dont know as I am not that qualified. So far all i could come up with are possible clues to rules. I mentioned them in an earlier post: some special usage of d1 and r1. Also the usage of d2 (in tandem with n2) seems close but somehow different from bhairavi (unlike the g2r2g2m1 which seems pretty much like bhairavi). Obviously this is a very sketchy and incomplete picture.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 12 Sep 2006, 02:58, edited 1 time in total.

ninjathegreat
Posts: 301
Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07

Post by ninjathegreat »

arunk wrote:ninja,

i see now you were asking about rules *in this case*. which i missed and started with a more basic explanation. Sorry!

Also rules about this case, i am sorry again - i really dont know as I am not that qualified. So far all i could come up with are possible clues to rules. I mentioned them in an earlier post: some special usage of d1 and r1. Also the usage of d2 (in tandem with n2) seems close but somehow different from bhairavi (unlike the g2r2g2m1 which seems pretty much like bhairavi). Obviously this is a very sketchy and incomplete picture.

Arun
Oh, the basic explanation is useful too, believe me!!! I am an utter novice!!! Thanks a lot for all the details!!

Ninja

CSS
Posts: 32
Joined: 17 Aug 2006, 22:28

Post by CSS »

arasi wrote:While those of you who know the theory of music discuss the raga, as a mere rasika I would like to add this: I like the way thenpaanan's teacher explained ghanta to him. I wish all teachers were that descriptive. This excercise in analysing a raga by just its resemblance to oher ragas is a bit flawed, I think. It is like blind men trying to describe an elephant by mere touch and saying it is like this or that). I wonder if at some point someone heard the bells in a temple and sang with it and it became ghanta (that's why the swaying notes). Or, they felt that something had to be chanted along with the bell sounds...
Well taken point. Too much analysis of a creative thing like music robs it of it's beauty. Infact, I have felt that some brilliant musicians went downhill in their mid career because their analytical faculties took over their manodharmic abilties.

knandago2001
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 10:09

Post by knandago2001 »

After this thread started, I was quite intrigued by the fact that Dikshitar composed kamalamba navavarnas in Ghanta, Punnagavarali and Ahiri. On listening to DKJ's versions of each of these compositions in tandem, I'm remain amazed at Dikshitar's conceptualization and portrayal of each of these ragas. A similar exercise with Tyagaraja's compositions might perhaps facilitate raga swaroopa comparisons. Your thoughts on this.......

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

knandago2001 wrote:After this thread started, I was quite intrigued by the fact that Dikshitar composed kamalamba navavarnas in Ghanta, Punnagavarali and Ahiri. On listening to DKJ's versions of each of these compositions in tandem, I'm remain amazed at Dikshitar's conceptualization and portrayal of each of these ragas. A similar exercise with Tyagaraja's compositions might perhaps facilitate raga swaroopa comparisons. Your thoughts on this.......
While Dikshita's kritis in Ahiri, Ghanta and punnAgavarALi are real heavy weights, Tyagaraja has chosen to compose simple EkadhAtu/dvidhAtu type of kritis in these rAgas. That is a striking dissimilarity.

-Ramakriya

knandago2001
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 10:09

Post by knandago2001 »

I was referring only to the raga swaroopa as exemplified in the various compositions. Tyagaraja has certainly given us more compositions in each of the ragas for the sake of detailed comparison. For example aadaya sri and challare in ahiri, the ghanta compositions previously posted by drshreekanth, gandhamu puyyaruga and E nomu in punnagavarali. I feel that each kriti reveals different prayogas of the same raga. One striking feature that I noted was that ahiri, unlike punnagavarali or ghanta, is not sung in madhyama sruti which suggests differences in terms of raga sanchara. Punnagavarali rarely admits the usage of chatursruti rishaba (R2); R2 figures more prominently in ghanta.

Nandagopal

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Post by rajeshnat »

I got this interesting post from this link , I think it is posted by chitraveena ravikiran.
http://lite.mayyam.com/indcmusic/11992.10.35.47.html.---> Prof TRS rocks with his sense of humour!!

From: Ravi Kiran (@ 210.214.123.122) on: Wed May 31 15:37:15 EDT 2000

there is an interesting anecdote regarding the raga ghanta. this was told by TRS in a lec-dem.

trs and ramnad krishnan once went to a lec in music academy where smt muktha was demonstrating this raga. they could not recognize this raga but later were told it was ghanta. they felt that it was a raga that needed to be mastered, so they returned to their respectice home towns and decided to get a hang of this ghanta raga.

After 6 months, when trs and rk met at a function, trs told rk that he was unable to do anything with ghanta - for which rk said:"ghantale onnume illeyA, dhanyaasiya thappaa padinaa adhudhaan ghantaa"

to which trs replied:"appudiya? appo, naan ippovarekum dhanyaasienu nenechu padinadhu ghantaadhaano??"

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

rajeshnat wrote:I got this interesting post from this link , I think it is posted by chitraveena ravikiran.
http://lite.mayyam.com/indcmusic/11992.10.35.47.html.---> Prof TRS rocks with his sense of humour!!
I beleive this post is from G Ravikiran, a flautist from Bangalore.

-Ramakriya

prashant
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:01

Post by prashant »

Ramakriya: Isn't G. Ravikiran a vocalist? IIRC he used to learn from Srikantan Sir and is now under the tutelage of Sri TMK. He sang here in Mumbai recently, a nice recital anchored by a weighty Anandabhairavi followed by daNDAyudhapANim.

www.gravikiran.com
Last edited by prashant on 14 Sep 2006, 09:42, edited 1 time in total.

ramakriya
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

hmm.. There are two flautists G Ravikiran and G Mohan Rangan from Bangalore who have given duet concerts too ..

I am not sure if these to Ravi Kiran's are the same or different.

I know that Ravikiram who used to post on Forumhub was from Bangalore . Now I do not know if it is the flautist or the vocalist !

I wonder of G Ravikiran is also on this forum :-) If so he could clear us!

-Ramakriya

prashant
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:01

Post by prashant »

ramakriya wrote:hmm.. There are two flautists G Ravikiran and G Mohan Rangan from Bangalore who have given duet concerts too .

-Ramakriya
Ah OK Ramakriya. Wasn't aware of that.
ramakriya wrote:I wonder of G Ravikiran is also on this forum :-) If so he could clear us!
Come out, come out, wherever you are :-)

ninjathegreat
Posts: 301
Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07

Post by ninjathegreat »

arasi wrote:While those of you who know the theory of music discuss the raga, as a mere rasika I would like to add this: I like the way thenpaanan's teacher explained ghanta to him. I wish all teachers were that descriptive. This excercise in analysing a raga by just its resemblance to oher ragas is a bit flawed, I think. It is like blind men trying to describe an elephant by mere touch and saying it is like this or that). I wonder if at some point someone heard the bells in a temple and sang with it and it became ghanta (that's why the swaying notes). Or, they felt that something had to be chanted along with the bell sounds...
reminds me of "AlaigaL maNiyin Osaiyai nAn kaeTTEn" :):):)

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

alai alaiyAyp pAyum Alaya maNi, perhaps. The old film song goes like this: Alaya maNiyin Osayai nAn kETTEn, arul mozhi kURum paRavaigaL oli kETTEn...

gravikiran
Posts: 114
Joined: 14 Sep 2006, 08:46

Post by gravikiran »

hi,
that post from forumhub was from me during the good old days when forumhub was active :-)
my name is G Ravi Kiran and as prashant said i am under the tutelage of both Sri RK Srikantan and Sri TM Krishna. (prashant, i guess it was a typo when you said "not under the tutelage" ;-))
there is another G Ravi Kiran who is a flautist and also from Bangalore.
thanks,
ravi kiran.
www.gravikiran.com

prashant
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:01

Post by prashant »

Sorry Ravi Kiran: that was very much a typo. I have fixed it!

ramakriya
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

gravikiran wrote:hi,
that post from forumhub was from me during the good old days when forumhub was active :-)
my name is G Ravi Kiran and as prashant said i am under the tutelage of both Sri RK Srikantan and Sri TM Krishna. (prashant, i guess it was a typo when you said "not under the tutelage" ;-))
there is another G Ravi Kiran who is a flautist and also from Bangalore.
thanks,
ravi kiran.
www.gravikiran.com
Welcome to the forum Ravikiran!

-Ramakriya

rajeshnat
Posts: 9906
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Post by rajeshnat »

gravikiran
Thank god I posted that url and put your name. I now looked at your website where there is a photograph of you and Archana (your wife), that quick look reminds of me another kiran sashikiran in first glance.

Please be proactive in generating more posts , we need perspectives from performers too at regular intervals!Good luck with your music

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

ramakriya wrote:BTW, does anyone have a recording of jayamaNgalam of Tyagaraja in Ghanta? If so please upload. I will try to get a recording too.

-Ramakriya
Found one recording of jayamangaLam in ghanTa here:


http://www.raaga.com/channels/carnatic/ ... 00040.html

It is the third song in the list.

Actually this rendition is making it even more complicated with shades of sourAshTra and Ahiri thrown in!

-Ramakriya

sankark
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Re: ghanTa

Post by sankark »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeT6DEIV4rQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_yTvUeL1jw

T's jayamangaLam in ghantA featured in them. Sounds like punnAgavarALi. no dhanyAsi/bhairavi sAyal I could discern

Anand V. Raman
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Joined: 16 Aug 2019, 16:14

Re: ghanTa

Post by Anand V. Raman »

Is there any composer other than Muthuswamy Dikshithar have composed krithis in this raga? Anand V. Raman.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

Wait till I get a weekend off where I can write in peace. I have cracked the mystery of ghanTa with a lot of help of course, and there will be some surprising revelations.

Hint : There's a Bell Museum.

ajaysimha
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Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: ghanTa

Post by ajaysimha »

👍👍

ajaysimha
Posts: 831
Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: ghanTa

Post by ajaysimha »

SrinathK wrote: 03 Dec 2019, 20:26 Wait till I get a weekend off where I can write in peace. I have cracked the mystery of ghanTa with a lot of help of course, and there will be some surprising revelations.

Hint : There's a Bell Museum.
@SrinathK did you find any time to post the same.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

If I did wouldn't I have written it by now? :P

On top of it, this year I decided to enjoy the music season like it was my last month alive (ok a bit exaggerated, but not by much), so that pushes everything back. Plus I wanted to hear what Smt. Sowmya had sung for RTP which I eventually managed to do last week. So that's where things are right now.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: ghanTa

Post by Ranganayaki »

sankark wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 07:09 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeT6DEIV4rQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_yTvUeL1jw

T's jayamangaLam in ghantA featured in them. Sounds like punnAgavarALi. no dhanyAsi/bhairavi sAyal I could discern
The early part of the pallavi (in the first video) reminds me of Asaveri, but it is clearly also distinct from it. The resemblance i sense is mainly in the lower reaches (of the descent) in main octave. The ascent has a Ga that Asaveri does not have.

This video is a nice rendition and it’s the first time I’ve enjoyed Ghanta, though I’ve not heard it much. May be Smt Vedavalli being there means it is a reliably correct form of the raga? Looking forward to Srinath’s explanation 🙂

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

Before I post on ghanTa, someone find me Mani Krishnaswami's rendition of anything labellled ghanTa. There's a reason for that. Will tell you soon.

CRama
Posts: 2939
Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 16:58

Re: ghanTa

Post by CRama »

Here is the link for the Kamalamba Navavaranam in Ghanta by Mani Krishnaswamy.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/tf5yf2cr ... a.mp3/file

ajaysimha
Posts: 831
Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: ghanTa

Post by ajaysimha »

sharing a few links

Dr. Mani Krishnaswami - Muthuswami Dikshitar's Kamalamba Navavarna Kritis
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 9mb2IJYHOS

the ghanta raga navavarna krithi: https://youtu.be/SGmdejaq3V8

Thyagaraja Kriti-gAravimpa-rAda--GhanTA--rUpaka by Mani Krishnaswami
https://youtu.be/sgGj8RDzM2U
(doesn't sounds like ghanta ragam)

SELECTED RAGAM: GHANTA
http://saidvk.blogspot.com/2013/06/sele ... hanta.html

selected part from - http://carnatica.in/newsletter/dhanyasinewsletter.htm

allied ragas to dhanyasi:
Allied Ragas (Tiruvengadu Jayaraman): Dhanyasi, by nature, musicological analysis and usage, belongs to the 8th mela. The first point to be noted is that there is no profusion of ragas derived from the 8th melakarta. Hence, the ragas allied to Dhanyasi are also limited.

The most proximate raga is Ghanta, with many phrases similar to passages found in Dhanyasi. However, there is enough difference. (This was demonstrated by Jayaraman through some prayogas). The rasanubhava between Dhanyasi and Ghanta or Dhanyasi and Todi is different. Dhanyasi has its own features, which are unique, and its closeness to Ghanta, does, in no way, mar its uniqueness.

The only other Raga that can be considered as an allied raga of Dhanyasi is Asaveri. The swara-structures of these ragas serve to point out, to a great extent, the difference rather than similarity - as can be seen from the use of Rishabha in Asaveri. Renditional purity will suffice to compare and or contrast two ragas. This can show the extent of proximity of raga Asaveri to Dhanyasi. Many compositions in these ragas highlight these facets and it is best seen in them.

ajaysimha
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Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: ghanTa

Post by ajaysimha »

SrinathK wrote: 06 Jan 2020, 11:30 Before I post on ghanTa, someone find me Mani Krishnaswami's rendition of anything labellled ghanTa. There's a reason for that. Will tell you soon.
ajaysimha wrote: 08 Jan 2020, 13:53 sharing a few links

Dr. Mani Krishnaswami - Muthuswami Dikshitar's Kamalamba Navavarna Kritis
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 9mb2IJYHOS

the ghanta raga navavarna krithi: https://youtu.be/SGmdejaq3V8

Thyagaraja Kriti-gAravimpa-rAda--GhanTA--rUpaka by Mani Krishnaswami
https://youtu.be/sgGj8RDzM2U
(doesn't sounds like ghanta ragam)
hi @SrinathK, did you miss this ?

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

No I did not. Be patient, not long now before I get to ghanTa. Thanks for the links btw.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

ghaNTA and the Bell Exhibit in the Museum of Carnatic Ragas

Yes, after gauri, gaurimanOhari would have been the next, but I have been itching to write about ghanTA all these days, so I won't wait anymore. One post will deal with ghaNTA in all its forms by a study of the phrases and a nice set of metaphors, another will deal with the compositions and available recordings. And bonus, we have two stories, one for the nature of raga ghaNTA and yes, we have another thrilling scripted story for ghaNTA which ties into the lives of several ragas including bhairavi, mAnji and AbhEri, supported by a few more characters - one of the greatest deceptions ever carried out in the history of Carnatic Music. :twisted: :twisted:

But to appreciate any of that, one must first know what raga ghaNTA itself is about. Because of the complex nature and history of this raga, this will be a multi part article.

ghaNTA is also known by the name ghaNTAravam, which sounds more formal, and I will use this name where a reference to the raga has been given as ghaNTAravam. Otherwise I will just be calling it ghaNTA.

Very generally, an Arohanam avarohanam for ghaNTA as it is sung today would be
Aro : S G2 R2 G2 M1 P N2 S
Avaro : S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R1 S - Which doesn't tell you the story about all the phrases that are actually used in it.

I know that ghaNTA as we sing it today is considered to be a composite raga, placed under the 20th mElakarta naTabhairavi using 10/12 notes except the antara gandhAram (G3) and kakali nishAdam (N3), and often found struggling for a distinct identity, sometimes sounding like punnAgavarALi (in GRGMPD where it uses R2), sometimes sounding like dhanyAsi (PNS-NDP or PS-NDP and PGMP and if followed by MGRS with R1), sometimes like asAvEri (in MGRS where it uses R1 and SRGRS and P-D1 N D1,P with that slide and orikkai on D1), at times like bhairavi (MMM(P)-GRGMP) where it uses R2, and there are some versions that use D2 in NDNS like bhairavi. Sometimes if you linger long on the N2, you can even find Ahiri appearing in it (Dear Lord...)

It is not necessary for a composition in ghanTa to use all those phrases either. For example there are compositions where NDNS does not come. In fact all that's left is to use PNDN frequently with D2 and and you will then have some husEni also making it's way into the picture. :lol: :lol: . That one thing I haven't heard yet. Overall the end result is that ghanTa seems like a raga poorly welded together from several other ragas without a distinct identity of its own - which is very strange considering how unique all other ragas are in Carnatic Music. What could have resulted in such confusion over its lakshanas?

So before you hear my take on the ghaNTA story, first let me redirect you to a very comprehensive article written by Ravi Rajagopalan on ghaNTA at guruguha.org : http://guruguha.org/blog/2016/10/07/ghanta-raga-era/

This is a very in-depth article and it has made my life way easier. In this article he has given textual references to the history of ghaNTA and as it turns out, the Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini (all bow to Subbarama Dikshitar) is the most comprehensive reference today for the phrases of ghanTa. Except, what SSP says is not so straightforward.

And if you want to see ghanTa's position in other texts before SSP and even before Venkatamakhi, you can refer to arunk's post at the beginning of this thread which I am linking here : viewtopic.php?f=7&t=631#p21229

Ravi Rajagopalan based on the textual evidence and recordings, points out that ghaNTA is a designer raga with many possible versions based on the usage (or avoidance) of D2, D1, R2 and R1 in key phrases and he has considered 4 versions (actually more like groups) of ghaNTA based on the relative usages of these notes and the key phrases. I will elaborate on those and then quite a few more types of ghaNTA, once we get to analyzing what the SSP has to say about it.

Now here is where I (and also Dr. T R Aravindhan) come in and add our bit. I say that one can go one step further with this, and find -- yes, a fifth group, a very pure form, distinct from the other 4, based again on exactly what is given in the SSP and suggested by texts before it, that stands alone in a class of its own. In fact Ravi Rajagopal has mentioned the possibility himself, but he has left it out at the end.

In fact, I could go further and say that due to competing traditions, there is potential for a Ravi Rajagopalan's 4th version of ghaNTA to become an entire group of hybrid ragas with differing use of R1 and R2. And even going beyond this, I'd say that the ghanTa we're singing that can't seem to make up it's mind on which rAgA could be considered a special version that is extended from the R1 dominant ghaNTA with many more prayogas from other ragas added in the same way some people put all kinds of aerodynamic appendages on their original versions of supercars and turn them into track or kit versions.

And then there are a few other variations depending on which notes and phrases are used and which aren't, bringing the total to a grand 9 versions of ghaNTA.

What am I talking about? 4 and then 5 (slash), 6 (no) 7, (nope), 8(NO!), 9 versions of ghanTa? What am I doing, selling bells of different kinds in a shop? Well, the bell shop closed down a very long time ago, so instead I'm opening an exhibit in my museum of Carnatic Ragas, and if there's enough demand, the museum and this exhibit could become very popular. :lol:

So let's open the SSP and see what Subbarama Dikshitar has to say. As it turns out, given what he has said we are going to need to call in some lawyers...

1) First thing you notice is that Subbarama Dikshitar has surprisingly classified ghaNTA as an upAnga raga under the 20th mEla. Not only that, Venkatamakhin in the chaturdanDi prakAshika has also classified ghaNTA as an upAnga rAga under the bhairavi mEla. The murchana shown is

Aro : S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D1 P N2 D1 N2 S
Avaro : S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S (Note : He uses symbols for flat, natural and sharp to denote the 3 varieties of R,G,D and N. A symbol once used, indicates that note is either sharp or flat or natural for the rest, unless explicitly specified)

upAnga rAga? Of 20th mEla? But ghaNTA with all those extra notes (R1, D2) with the popular version heavy on R1 using R2 only in GRG should clearly be a bhAshAnga raga at any cost, by any logic. And by now we have it in mEla 8 (tODi). upAngA rAga means no foreign notes would be present, all the notes are only the notes of the 20th mEla. No one sings it this way (or do they?)

Well go back and read arunk's post again. All the old texts seem to suggest ghaNTA was using R2 and one of the later texts, by mentioning a ghaNTArava in tODi mEla suggests that R1 had begun to enter into ghaNTA sometime between Venkatamakhin's time and the Trinity era.

So this could be the original form of ghaNTA, a pure version, unadulterated by other traditions and extra notes. Indeed such a version should have existed at one point, otherwise there is no logic in classifying ghaNTA as an upAnga raga. At first glance, with no R2, it appears that this ghaNTA in theory would sound remarkably similar to what bhairavi is today (although depending on the gamakas used, one may argue that it could sound different - we will look at this down the road), but no D2 means it will also be unique in the handling of certain prayogas. This form of ghaNT does not exist anywhere on the stage right now, but no one can argue against it's existence.

Subbarama Dikshitar goes on to highlight the key phrases of this version of ghaNTA. Specifically there is kampita on G2, M2, N2 and D1. There is a unique slide from P->G (and we will encounter this) that is a bit different from how it is typically handled in dhanyasi in phrases like P (M)->GMP these days - it's a simpler, more distinguishing jhAru. Nokku (N as NSN or G as RGR in gamaka) features heavily on N2, a plain N is very rare. The same is true on G2 as well, a plain G is rare. Nokku also features on M1, as does a huge arching glissando (vali gamaka) from G to P and back to M on the GMP phrase (this is exactly like bhairavi on G,MPDP).

There are plenty of phrases that are similar to modern CM raga phrases - on N2 you have gamakas lightly glancing the upper S for e.g. SGR is a very important pharse and the handling of SGR is just like bhairavi. There are odukkal gamakas on SNDP (an odukkal on NDP will be played as (SN-S) (N)->D(N) P and on G2 it will be played virtually (MGM) and so on. Plenty of vali gamakas (played by pulling the string to change the pitch) and so on... -- anyway so much for words. Words can only convey so much about gamakas. One has to see the text of the SSP for themselves and a demonstration of the gamakas on the veena Or voice to see the phrases.

Other phrases given by SD in the lakshana are NDNS, NSD, ND, the big gamaka on GMP, MGR, GGR, MNDPMGRS and also PNS. I will discuss more of these phrases when I come to the renditions of the compositions in ghaNTA.

In fact I'd say upAnga ghaNTA is pretty much a heavy modern raga with all the gamaka heavy notes being handled pretty much the same way as we do today. One unique, very beautiful prayoga in this ghanTa is the special handling of SNDP with the odukkal gamaka - ghaNTA has the most moving SNDP I have ever heard, better than even bhairavi or mukhAri. It has to be heard to be properly understood. The popular version of ghanta today also has it.

This much focus on upAnga ghaNTA is necessary because now is where things start getting a little complicated. To be continued...
Last edited by SrinathK on 31 Mar 2020, 20:13, edited 10 times in total.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

ghanTa - Part 2

So we had a good look at what I call the pure version of ghaNTA, that has been long forgotten in the CM world. Though at this point, without a recording, reading this will not tell you what it sounds like or just why I have given this some special treatment.

Because in the next line, Subbarama Dikshitar states - "the customary panchashruti dhaivata passages (D2) are NSDNS and NDNS" (and shuddha dhaivata D1 in all others). Now here is where ghaNTA starts changing character into a bhashAnga raga with extra notes. This handling of D2 is practically identical to modern bhairavi. This ghaNTA is essentially bhairavi without PDNS (Of course bhairavi also uses SRG and SRGM, but the SGR phrase is very important). If you feel compelled at this point to launch an investigation into the identity of bhairavi today, I'd recommend you do, because what you are going to find will truly surprise you -- I'll save the details for the bhairavi thread, but bhairavi as she used to be has long left this world, and several ragas were involved :twisted:

So the version with D2 is the 2nd version of ghaNTA.

Now the use of R2, for this SD says that the panchashruti rishabha (R2 - that's what he called it) is used in GRGMP, SGRGMP and therefore GRG and SGRG. The reason why this needs to be spelt out is because of what comes next.

Next SD says that trishuti rishaba (R1) is used in SRS, SGRS and NRS. And there it is, the first creeping signs of R1 entering into ghaNTA. This version could be considered a 3rd version of ghaNTA, maybe with a small amount of R1 sprinkled like salt, but predominantly R2.

And then Subbarama Dikshitar throws in the elephant in the room -- there are traditions where ghaNTA where either R2 and R1 are sung some of the time, and some traditions that are exclusively singing R1 (He means at MGRS, SGRS, SRS and NSRS if you're wondering). This is a little strange because grammatically, R1 really comes from tODi's mEla, while ghaNTA was originally placed under bhairavi mEla.

This version of ghaNTA is actually a description of today's version of ghaNTA that is being sung on stage, which is predominantly an R1 user, using R2 only in GRG and SGRG and sticking to R1 as the defacto rishabham. So that makes this the 4th version of ghaNTA, basically a big extension of the 3rd. In fact, THIS is the raga we now associate with ghanTa with all those phrases from other ragas thrown in for good measure.

And to be honest, Ravi Rajagopal has been a little partial to this (modern) version of ghaNTA with a totally modern handling in his rendition which may be found in his article. He has gone to some length to try and establish R1 to be used in MGRS in the hybrid R1-R2 version of ghaNTA there. Whereas I and Dr. A are a little closer to the upAngA side, because it is something special, and unlike the R1 dominant group, it hasn't been sung on stage.

But say for argument's sake, If we are going to include some designer hybrid version that uses R2 some of the time and R1 some of the time in phrases like MGRS, SGRS, SRS etc.., we could get a lot of possibilities - what would happen is that we would come up with an entire group of hybrid ghaNTAs. But I have not heard of such versions being performed. All versions of ghaNTA in practice are either R1 dominant or R2 dominant and all of them agree GRG should only be with R2.

What could be the reason for the introduction of R1 into an upAnga rAga under bhairavi mEla? Subbarama Dikshitar thinks that the variations in Rishabha from R2 to R1 could have occurred after the time of Venkatamakhi and these variations might have become traditional over time. This trend of taking liberties is actually pretty common. Even in modern CM there are plenty of ragas that have swapped D1 for D2 or have introduced extra notes.

Regarding this matter, a similar problem exists in the case of the rAga rAmakali, where M1 and M2 have been used to give one version with M2, one with M1 (similar to the raga mEchabauLi) and one that uses both (and the hybrid version is also there in the SSP as part of a ragamAlika). Not only that, it appears there were differences in interpretation among the Dikshitar clan themselves. Dr. T R Aravindhan has cross referenced this issue also happening in both ghaNTA and sAvEri in this article here : http://guruguha.org/blog/2019/02/19/the ... a-part-ii/

And the story just goes on, taking new twists and turns. As per Ravi's article, Swati Tirunal in his handling of ghanTa has a varnam to his credit where he has skipped GRG in the charanam and used SGMP instead. Now this brings in a 5th form of ghanTa! To complicate matters, it could very well be using only D1 or some mix of D1 and D2 -- this would mean that the SGMP group needs to belong in a separate category all to itself, and it has it's own versions of ghanTa.

For example, a D1 and R1 only version of this ghaNTA group would be virtually identical to dhanyAsi with one extra NDNS Or SDNS. On the other hand, if we can conclude that this version used only D1 and R2, with out without GRG, then we shall come to a very interesting result. I will discuss this rAgA later. ;)

The curious case of ghaNTA does not end there (:o). See we have not yet looked at Thyagaraja yet. Now I was speaking with Dr. Aravindhan today and as it turns out, Thyagaraja actually has a whopping eight kritis in this raga - making him the largest single composer to handle ghaNTAravam (and yet when was the last time you ever heard even one of them on stage? Why?). From old manuscripts we find that Thyagaraja's handling of rAgAs of the old tradition and common to him and the Dikshitar school (Takka, vasantabhairavi, Sri, hindOlavasantam, nAyaki) are based on the same lakshanas, but with stylistic differences in the choice and treatment of notes and phrases and tempo.

Based on that, we conclude that most likely Thyagaraja might have used the same lakshanas as Dikshitar. While the music world may treat Thyagaraja's ghaNTA songs with the modern "buffet raga" mishra treatment (if they sing them on stage at all that is), I think originally, his ghaNTA would likely have been R2 dominant or even purely upAngA.

Dr.A is still going through the Walajapettai Manuscripts and other books so I don't have a complete list of phrases or a recording of it. But so far, we have phrases like GRGM, GGMGPP, PDNDP, PGM (yes!), DPM-MGR, MPDP, MPPMGRS, NSNS-SSPP and SRS and SRSS (multiple notes might be shaped by the lyrics and the style of the composition, have to hear the tune). Dikshitar has also used these phrases in his own style in the SSP notations.

More on these when I get to the compositions - we still have quite a bit of studying to do - the manuscripts aren't telling us if this note is R1 or R2 or D1 or D2. In fact fact, even the SSP doesn't explicitly indicate this either, unlike so many other ragas where the types are clearly spelt out like bhairavam, so we have to go by our best understanding and SD's words.

Head spinning yet? Sit down, drink some water. Take a deep breath and relax. I did. :lol:

Let me make things a little simpler for you with some logic. There are 4 levels of Rishabha usage in this ghaNTA(ravam) - R2 exclusive, R2 dominant with a small amount of R1, R1 dominant with R2 in GRG, and hybrid use of R1 and R2.

There are 2 levels of dhaivata usage, with D2 in NDNS or without D2.

And then there are 3 potential ways of using GRG - mandatory, mixed up with SGMP or hardly / not using GRG and only SGMP.

This results in a potential for 4 x 2 x 3 = 24 distinct versions of ghaNTA in theory and for all we know the hybrids themselves could have sub variants based on how much one note is preferred over the other.

On top of all this, there's modern ghaNTA -- an extension of the 4th version of ghanTa, being R1 dominant, but has over time seemed to have absorbed phrases and gamakas of asAvEri, punnAgavaraLi, dhanyAsi and now can't seem to make up its mind on just what it is -- a singularly unique case of a raga with a genuine multiple personality disorder.

The complex case of ghaNTA is the result of competing traditions not strictly adhering to raga lakshana, at the same time not being able to totally wipe the pure version out of existence, thanks to the SSP and other manuscripts. Folks, this is why musicians and students of music must respect raga lakshana, lesson learned. :mrgreen:

Now I am not going to talk of 24 forms of ghaNTA (thank goodness!!) - the actual number of versions doing the rounds is far less, and they seem to have stabilized in recent decades. In practice, ghaNTA is split between R2 dominant group and the R1 dominant hybrid group in which there are some versions that are being sung. So I am only concerned about a few versions of ghANTA and those are the only ones you'll need to worry about. Wait, I mentioned earlier 9 versions didn't I? Yes, 9 is still a big headache, for many of you but I'm sorry, I tried my best to look for one rAgA and I simply could never find any evidence that ghaNTA has ever remained a single rAgA for long.


To be continued....

SrinathK
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Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

The following are the ghaNTAs that are practially relevant to Carnatic Music :

1) The purely upAnga phrase based SSP ghaNTA. We'll cross check it with manuscripts and books of Thyagaraja's kritis. Out of all the ones on this list, this is the most unique and original. There is totally not a trace of any other raga in it. Wait I said it resembled bhairavi right? Well no, it's the other way round. I'll reveal the truth soon.

2) A scalar version that sounds similar to the upAnga one - I'm not convinced this is really ghaNTA, probably a scale based on it.

3) The one that used D2 on NDNS and SDNS -- modern bhairavi's almost identical twin sister.

4) The version that used R1 sparingly, on a few key phrases like SGRS, SRS and NRS.

5) The R1 dominant version using R2 at GRG. This is a rather unalloyed form. It is sung by a certain very respected school even now. This version does not use the D2 or phrases containing D2.

6) R1 dominant, but this version does use D2 phrases. Whether this is just stylistic omission or it classifies #5 and #6 as 2 different versions is up for debate.

7) The R1 dominant version that has fused phrases of other allied ragas in it. This is the most well known modern version, the raga welded together with bits and pieces of other rAgAs.

Some may not consider this as a separate version from #6, and might argue that it comes down to stylistic differences in the treatment of this rAgA in different compositions. But I want to look closely at the phrases and see if those differences are significant, or not. IMHO I think #6 ghaNTA was a purer version compared to the #7 "mishra rAgA" ghaNTA.

8) The SGMP (with no GRG or maybe some GRG) upAngA version using R2 and D1. Apart from the varnam of Swati Tirunal, we have potentially stumbled upon a controversial discovery, and a hypothesis that just might solve a major mystery. It concerns an upAnga version of the SGMP ghaNTA and its rather surprising resemblance to an old version of a very popular rAgA.

9) The same SGMP dominant or SGMP exclusive ghaNTA, but it is also possible that this could be a hybrid or R1 dominant version of this. This is the bhAshAnga version.

Why the inerest in the upAngA version? Because a) Now I have proof that the Trinity were very knowledgeable and stricter about lakshanas, - Thyagaraja & Dikshitar agreed in lakshana wrt old school ragas and b) the other bhAshAnga version using R1 using SGMP would essentially be dhanyAsi itself. dhanyAsi is an old raga which has been around for as long as ghanTA, which means a doppelganger of dhanyAsi is less likely to have existed in practice.

We've essentially taken the 5 groups of ghaNTas spoken of in the 1st post (four of Ravi Rajagopalan and the fifth of Dr. Aravindhan), treated the multiple raga composite ghANTA as a separate version and split the rest up based on whether R1, R2 or D1 or D2 are dominating. So that makes a total of 9 versions.

These versions of ghANTA in my model may be classified into 2 fundamental camps / groups for simplicity - the R1 dominant camp, and the R2 dominant camp.

This was inevitable. It doesn't help that not a single old text on ghaNTA has ever indicated which R and D is being used without ambuguity.

However, to verify the details of the above ghaNTAs (yes, lets just call them ghaNTAs, and end all the confusion), we must take a look at the available evidence in the form of books, notations, manuscripts and recordings and then we can conclude for sure about the old versions of this raga.

Therefore, ghaNTA now is now the new record holder in Carnatic Music for the maximum number of distinct versions of a rAgA, stealing kalyANavasantam's thunder. Until of course, the kApi family opens their Carnatic Cafe Restaurant.

In the next, post, I'll spin off a humorous story on how ghaNTAs were made in the past and how so many versions came to exist. Enjoy reading.

Subsequently, I will look at the compositions in ghANTA with the recordings what are available out there and study their phrases and observe the key differences. Dr. Aravindhan is also looking up at Thyagaraja's and Dikshitar's compositions in ghANTA from the manuscripts and books, so I hope that these lost melodies will soon be brought out. Especially what happened to Thyagaraja's kritis can only be called an injustice, considering that he has 8 compositions to his credit, including a couple from naukA charitram.
Last edited by SrinathK on 01 Apr 2020, 15:56, edited 6 times in total.

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: ghanTa

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Refer drshrikaanth's post no.16 with Brinda-Mukta's rendition of Neyyaamuna - the celebrated padam in Ghanta.

On 29 March 2020 a YouTube link of N Ravikiran's Chitraveena concert (of 25 Nov 2014)was posted by RK Ramakrishnan. The last item of the concert is the Ghanta padam in the 'original Brinda paataantaram'. It is quite rare to get instrumental rendering of Ghanta. Simply grand.

I request any forumite to post the concert link in this thread for ready reference.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

Now friends and forumites and musicians, I welcome you all to the grand opening of Bell Exhibit in the Carnatic Museum of Ragas! Behold, the art of Carnatic Bell making and the various BELLS made in CM history!

1) Pure Gold ghaNTA - the upAngA, featuring exclusively R2. In the beginning, pure gold was considered the noblest, most valuable metal. Therefore bells were cast in pure 24 carat gold, richly decorated with gems of gamakas.

2) Gold leaf decorated stainless steel silver plated ghaNTA - the scalar rAgA imitator. Gold is expensive, rare and difficult to work with. Richly sculpted golden bells with gems are works of fine art that only elite royalty could buy. So of course we'd have thought of something more affordable for the masses. Why not just gold plate some stainless steel? :lol: Wait, I have a better idea. Let's electroplate a stainless steel bell with silver (D2), topped up by some gold leaf decorative work on the handle or chime. It'll still look good.

Since we're cost cutting, who needs richly sculpted and decorated bells? Let it be plain simple. Glue on some artificially colored stones. Build quality is only ever as good as the price!

3) 18 carat gold bell with copper alloy - The idea behind this bell came about because pure gold wasn't really good for making jewellery, as it was too soft and deformed easily. How was someone going to use it in a heavy duty repeated impact environment of a bell? The gold bells were simply being kept in glass cases. So a bit of copper was added to it in the form of R1, to form an alloy and give it some durability.

4) Gold and Silver Alloy (White gold) Bell - Someone decided they wanted white gold. And silver was the metal of the gods right? A perfect way to keep Kali's influence away. So they added some D2 in the form of silver at a specific proportion. This white gold ghaNTA was eventually forgotten along with the pure gold ghaNTA, but white gold itself got really popular in some other jewellery items. In fact, a silver diamond studded crown, popular in the market, was completely replaced by a crown made of white gold at one point, with no one the wiser, but they didn't mind the price increase - it just made it more valuable. Guess who?

5) The Gold plated Copper Bell - It was only a matter of time when this happened, as copper is more plentiful and cheaper than Gold. This, and maybe due to complaints of being too close to bhairavi, and maybe because people began to fear the theft of their gold bells, and sage wisdom of "gold being the root of evil", we decided to make the bell out of copper (R1). Gold (GRG) would be electroplated over the copper body to make it look golden. It still looked great, you could make richly sculpted bells with it, but it would be only a matter of time before the copper would leak through the gold layer. Silver plating was optional. Eventually this bell model became a best seller, dominating the market.

6)Pure copper Bell - Sigh. Whatever we tried, gold was just too expensive. So we just got rid of gold and decided a pure copper bell (only R1) with no GRG and featuring a large gemstone of the user's choice in the handle (SGMP) was still beautiful and more affordable. See, copper vessels are considered important in India. Now some yoga organizations are making copper globally popular. Besides, in our country, most of us suffer poverty. Isn't gold a sign of wealth and privilege and class discrimination? Don't some people who talk of privilege negatively get offended at such a vulgar display of opulence? Didn't some scriptures claim that Kali Purusha lives in gold?? Yes, copper corrodes fast and needs a lot of cleaning, but that's ok.

7) Pure Silver Bell - The makers realized that pure silver (R2) with no gold and the gemstone in the handle(SGMP and no GRG) makes a wonderful ghANTa, one that could occupy a price segment in between the copper and the pure gold bells. It was a segment yet untapped till that point. So they promptly got to work. I have to admit, the silver bell looked wonderful, the large gemstone really shone vividly in silver. Though silver can tarnish somewhat over time, it is easy to get it all smooth and shiny again.

Bells #6 and #7 became noteworthy designs for their glittering large gemstones and pure metal body. However, upon demand, a small amount of gold leaf work in the handle was offered as a bespoke option for bells #6 and #7. Alternatively, a small gemstone at the top of the handle was offered on as a bespoke option on all other bells. :ugeek:

This silver ghaNTA had an equivalent in the museum of Ragas of Hindustani Music. Like the white gold bell. It had an influence on the raga jewellery market. It might have inspired the creation of a silver ring and a silver necklace, designed based on it (that ring has since then changed its base metal, as a result of which is became extremely popular). Keep guessing who they are.

8) Bell metal bronze bell - Bronze is an alloy of Copper and Tin, much more durable being an alloy than pure metals and also less resistant to corrosion than copper. The glit bronze, that shines almost like gold when freshly scrubbed, would make an excellent substitute for gold. So they added some D2 tin to the copper bell, and obtained a beautiful bronze work of art.

Then the makers went one step further by upgrading to Bell Metal - a specialized form of bronze with much more tin content in it for durability, and it made it much tougher (keep in mind the heavy duty that bells get put through). It was extensively used for bell making (hence the name), famous for its special sound and resonance. So why not take our copper bell that's all R1, alloy it with plenty of D2, this time in the form of tin (26%) and some silver added for good measure (Russian style) to get the perfect bell mankind sought for ages? Then we could plate it with a bit of gold. The end result looked fabulous! :mrgreen:

9) The Ultimate bell (that wasn't) -- An over ambitious experiment. The idea was to have bell metal alloyed and plated with EVERY precious metal in sight. But the art of the creator is not just about great ideas, it also involves the art of knowing just where to stop :lol: It is knowing when not to fiddle further with what works best.

But unfortunately our overzealous bell makers didn't realize this. They tried adding every, and I mean, EVERY precious metal into the bell metal main alloy. They thought this would create the ultimate bell, and even had fancy ideas on how they could get the metals to mix in layers and patterns to give it a decorative multi metallic appearance.

Doing this was much easier said than done. They couldn't control the mix or even get the metals to mix properly, the multi metal electroplating didn't go quite right either and it resulted in a very heterogenous bell where some parts had exposed copper, some parts silver, some parts looked like gold, some parts looked like bronze, some parts like platinum, some titanium. It even made very different sounds when struck from every other point on its body!

Then they tried again, this time to make things easier, they fabricated each part separately and welded the bits and pieces together and embedded precious stones in it. Each part was made of a different metal, on to a main body of bell metal ghaNTA. While the result was passable, it's very obvious this is a rather discordant weld job where every part is different as each part was made by a different smith. And yes, it still kept sounding different at different places.

In fact the end result was that this bell turned into a work of modern art!! :lol: :lol:

Some art critic called it as such, and suddenly this bell became really popular amongst contemporary buyers. Marketed as an expression of diversity, fusion and multiculturalism, challenging Orthodox ideas, and of course, breaking stereotypes, it became very popular with the cosmopolitan liberal generation. Today no one seems to know of any other bell except this one!! Many traditionalists complained that this bell was a confused effort lacking originality, but what to do in a time when they were scoffed at as narrow minded? The experiment was an eventual success, a best seller, but not quite in the way the makers had thought. :mrgreen:

The bell shop that fabricated all these bells also had a special operations division - where they could in theory offer you up to 24 bespoke types of alloyed / pure metal bells, with your choice of gemstones -- if the price was right. But most customers weren't uber rich collectors, plus the market soon into a duopoly between the 18 carat bell vs the Copper and Gold plated bell, before eventually the "Modern Art" bell established a monopoly. So demand for bespoke bells never took off, and the division was soon shut down.

Rumors are that these are not the only types of bells that have existed. Apparently some very old bells with strangely shaped bodies and custom metal shapes in the handle have been seen in the special ops workshop - details of these bells are scant. They do not seem to have ever been offered to the public. These bells seem to have used such strange architecture that some people claim that they were of alien origin. Who knows, maybe there's a bell from Mars somewhere in an underground vault. :lol: :twisted: I just like to think the special ops division were up to some wild designs.

But eventually ghaNTA was no longer popular in the music market. Demand for bells of all types dropped, and the shop finally closed down its shutters. Some of their old bells however were still preserved in glass cases and were recently retrieved when the door was opened for investigation after many many years.

And that is the story of how 9 types of bells (and maybe more) came to be in Carnatic Music. :ugeek:

In the meantime, other rasikas can post recordings of ghaNTA and I'll include them in the next post on compositions and phrases of the ghaNTAs of CM.
Last edited by SrinathK on 01 Apr 2020, 19:24, edited 3 times in total.

CRama
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Re: ghanTa

Post by CRama »

Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 12:09 On 29 March 2020 a YouTube link of N Ravikiran's Chitraveena concert (of 25 Nov 2014)was posted by RK Ramakrishnan. The last item of the concert is the Ghanta padam in the 'original Brinda paataantaram'. It is quite rare to get instrumental rendering of Ghanta. Simply grand.
Here is the link to that concert. The padam starts at 2:31:55

https://youtu.be/v9W785PBqjM

cienu
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 11:40

Re: ghanTa

Post by cienu »

@SrinathK
Your ability to weave stories around ragas (even those ragas which have been largely "unsung" over a long period of time) is simply extraordinary. Your posts will surely be reference points for students of music as your analysis is done in such microscopic detailing. I would never have guessed that Ghanta would have had so many hues & shades until I read your remarkable posts. Appreciate the effort you have taken in showcasing Ghanta for posterity.

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: ghanTa

Post by rajeshnat »

Srinath
Great post navagraha ghanta . As I kept reading your post , i thought you may not have a great climax but just like few great films and screen writers even your climax of ghanta is great.

The very first time i heard in the forum was some one in our forum quoting somewhere where Prof TRS mama saying ghanta is thappu thappa dhanyasi pAdinA. Keep up your great post , it is dense but at times i need more than once reading. With the ghanta ringing i am jumping to see and hear gowrimanOhari.

Is the person ravi rajagopalan part of ravisri id of our forum.

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: ghanTa

Post by rajeshnat »

Alamelu Mani singing Neyyamuna(padam) - Ghanta - Koranadu Netesa Pillai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7sDLSOke1Y

RaviSri
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Re: ghanTa

Post by RaviSri »

Ravi Rajagopalan is different from me.

kmrasika
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 07:55

Re:

Post by kmrasika »

rbharath wrote: 12 May 2006, 15:44 it is said that ghanta used to be a ragam which would be elaborated in temple processions and all, which just means that, it is defly elaboratable.

like narayanagaula, ghanta has also donated many of its phrases to closely allied ragams and hence is now suffering from identity crisis.


the odd dikshithar and svati thirunal compositions, so it must have been in vogue, at least in bhajan form - And listening to it, I am sure that it can also be elaborated upon, only it's not common now, as the raga has almost been forgotten


[*]
"danyasi thappu thappa paadinaa, adhu thaan ghanta" a mordern day musicians comment.

Just read the posts on this thread on the rāga ghaṇṭā, an enigma of an admixture of āsāvēri,
punnāgavarāḷi, bhairavi, dhanyāśi and thought the descriptions of the various "ghaṇṭā"-s to be extremely erudite and educational. And yes, if one were to handle dhanyāśi haphazardly, then you arrive at ghaṇṭā.

@rbharath mentioned temple, bhajan, hence my two cents.As part of the ḍōlōtsava procedure per bōdhēndrāḷ et. al's prācīna saṁpradāya bhajana paddhati, when the dieties are lulled to their subconscious slumber, the jayadēva aṣṭapadī(there's a story that the mudra caraṇa has divine ordinance), "mañjutara kuñjatala" is rendered in this very rāga(some books mention punnāgavarāḷi). As a sample, here's
uḍayālūr kalyāṇarāma bhāgavatar's renditon-he articulates the peculiar nuances of the rāga in the preceding ślōka:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ-9PUuI3dg

SivaniVSPG24
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Re: ghanTa

Post by SivaniVSPG24 »

Pls post about raga yadukula kambhoji .

nAdopAsaka
Posts: 878
Joined: 20 Jul 2020, 17:05

Re: ghanTa

Post by nAdopAsaka »

gladly !!

majestic Dikshitar kriti to the horse-riding Devi of MAyuram
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAqxbmx ... Oq&index=5

of course DiwAkara tanujam is the graha kriti also in YK

maharajas last word (aka mangalam)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcaVts52QTw

broad overview of several kritis !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvNMJ68aFhs

enjoy !!

RasikasModerator1
Posts: 40
Joined: 29 Nov 2009, 07:03

Re: ghanTa

Post by RasikasModerator1 »

Excuse us, but why are you both posting about yadukula kaambhoji on ghanta thread? Please do not drift off topic on raga threads.

If this keeps happening, we will move the posts to the appropriate raga threads and leave a message.

nAdopAsaka
Posts: 878
Joined: 20 Jul 2020, 17:05

Re: ghanTa

Post by nAdopAsaka »

oops !

maybe I got carried away responding to the request for YK made here..

wanted to stop the bleeding first, then the surgery can follow....please delete or move as you see proper..

thanks

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

After a long time, we resume from where we left off. Any discussion on ghaNTA is incomplete without examples. Therefore we are going to run through all the examples of bells we can currently find in the music market.

To sum up my story on the bell shop, broadly speaking, ghaNTA varieties can be divided into R2 and R1 dominated versions with further variations on the use of D1 and D2 and the GRG phrase. Almost all ghaNTAs insist on using the SGRG and GRG phrase with R2.

Let's begin with Thyagaraja. He appears to have been very fond of ghaNTA given how many compositions of his are there in it. Of course, we do not know which version of ghaNTA he used at the moment. Instead I will just share the recording and discuss the features of the particular ghaNTA used in the track.

eTlA kanugondunO - https://www.sangeethamshare.org/sunil/t ... o/krithis/

A thing to observe is that many kritis of Thyagaraja which are known (with proof) to be in tisra tripuTa or mishra jhampa talas are now sung in mishra chApu and khaNda chApu respectively. All these kritis have been through many major modifications.

In the common modern R1 ghaNTA, a tendency has arisen to handle the D1 in a very asAvEri / punnAgavarALi way with a slide from the N2. Also if combined with a plain held N2 before moving on to D1 (like N,D(N)DP) - it can even sound like Ahiri. This combined with the use of GRG and then the use of R1 in GRS and SRS makes this ghaNTA only makes the resemblance to modern asAvEri and punnAgavarALi all the more pronounced. Now combine this with PNS and SNDP and the upper part of the raga sounds exactly like dhanyAsi. Nevertheless, even in this version, we can see the delicate gamaka on the D1 on the descent that kisses the N2 before coming down which is unique to ghaNTA (SND,(N)P).

Now listen to the popular version of jaya mangalam - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BznmAMw1WSQ

This is a good example of the ultimate fused alloy Bell (#9). It sounds like modern asAveri (there is even a RMPD phrase here somehow, shockingly, :shock: along with SRGR and other modern asAvEri phrases, and the other parts of the bell resemble dhanyAsi and punnagavaraLi).

This continues into perugu pAlu - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbGhB6iuzpw

However, gAravimpa rA rA throws up a surprise, because in some versions, we don't have a R1 at all (Mani Krishnaswamy)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgGj8RDzM2U - with PNDNS, PN PNS and RGMGRS and all, this ghaNTA sounds more like husEni than any other raga. This is ghaNTA #2 in my story, yeah the gold plated scalar version.

And then there's unnatAvunA, a divya nAma keertanam -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYOdEJZVzDs

In this, just pay attention to the S-P phrase on every second line. This is an important phrase that also comes in a padam. Overall, being a divya nama keertanam, it sticks to a limited range of notes, between S and P touching D, so we don't have more info. This may be taken as an example of the copper bell plated with gold - i.e #5.

I am not able to find any other kriti of Thyagaraja in ghaNTA, and I must raise a doubt whether any one of these isn't highly modified from what he composed. I could not find a recording of Swathi Tirunal's ghaNTA varnam containing the SGMP phrase spoken of by Ravi Rajagopalan either.

About ghaNTA's #6 and #7, these pure copper and silver ghANTAs are devoid of the GRG phrase so key to ghANTA. Just do a thought experiment for a second -- what happens when you remove the GRG phrase from ghaNTA completely?

Your pure copper bell #6 becomes : S G2 M1 P N2 S - S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R1 S - guess what. It's dhanyAsi! :twisted: So that kind of explains why this bell never truly took off. There was enough confusion with dhanyAsi with the gold alloyed copper R1 ghaNTA already.

More interestingly Your pure silver bell #7 becomes : S G2 M1 P N2 S - S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S - AbhEri !! :shock: :o

For both the above ghaNTAs, unless they can show sufficient strength in phrases like NDNS SDNS PNDNS and PDNP, they would no longer be ghanTAs anymore. They would be dhanyAsi and Abheri.

This may very well be the reason why SGM is avoided in all but one example of ghaNTA and SGRG is mandatory as per all texts that mention this raga. Without it, no form of ghaNTA would really exist, which explains why trace amounts of gold were found in all the bells in some form or the other.

This has other implications. I should point out, in Walajapettai Notations, the raga of nagumOmu is mentioned as ghaNTAravam and there is in fact a GRG that survives in the song even to this day. AbhEri exists in this form as Abhir in Hindustani Music. It makes me wonder if at some point the Abheri still sung in the Dikshitar school was replaced by the scalar Abhir and somehow the overlap with ghANTA did the rest. But without a notation, I can only speculate. By the time AM Chinnaswamy Mudaliar came out with his index of Thyagaraja kritis 6 decades later, it is already shown as mela 20 Abheri with D1.

Next post, on to Dikshitar and the padams in ghaNTA, where we shall cover the other bells. The pure gold ghANTA is being saved for last.
Last edited by SrinathK on 14 Nov 2020, 23:59, edited 3 times in total.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

You might feel things are a little better over at Dikshitar's but no, it turns there are a few other bells over there as well. These alternative forms of ghANTA already existed in those days, and Subbarama Dikshitar concluded they might have been around right from Venkatamakhi's days.

There is a totally different version of Sri mangalAmbikAm that features a ghaNTA with R2, R1 and a D2 in NDNS. I mean, just listen to it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSAlECJizC4 - Only recording I found on YT.

Clearly this must have been the attempt at making a ghaNTA out of bronze or bell metal and then electroplating it with gold (GRG). The only problem is, this version of sri mangalambikAm is totally not the real one, not one bit. And it has absolutely has nothing on the SSP version, which is in a whole other category. It's like making a Rolls Royce or a Bugatti Chiron out of plastic and on top of that the final result doesn't look anything like the original.

Ravi Rajagopalan in his guruguha article has given another example of a version of Sri mangalambikam sung by himself - with D2 in NDNS and SDNS, but which is R1 predominant. Though he has claimed it is SSP inspired, for once, I have to disagree as there are quite a few not insignificant departures. He also needs to check his swarasthanam as he's inadvertently hit N3 many times. Of course, while he has gone for a bronze ghaNTA and not a gold one (more on this next post), if he doesn't watch his swarasthana, he might end up creating a Titanium ghaNTA. :twisted:

Now coming to ghaNTA #4, the white gold alloy, here's a question? What happens when D2 is introduced instead of D1 in NDNS and SDNS in a pure R2 version of ghaNTA? You get a raga that goes like this - S G2 R2 G2 M1 P N2 (D2 N2) S - S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S.

Doesn't it look familiar? Add a bit more silver D2 to the alloy and make it PDNS even. What is this raga?
Ans : Modern BHAIRAVI.

Yes, white gold ghANTA is just today's bhairavi lacking a PDNS. Told you that white gold became popular elsewhere...

Speaking of bhairavi, one may observe that all forms of ghaNTA resemble bhairavi in the SGRGMP zone. The large swinging oscillation on M1 from G2 to P and back to M is the same as bhairavi's. In fact even more than bhairavi, the SGRGMP phrase is actually ghaNTA's gold. Bhairavi has multiple possibilities including a linear SRGMP, but ghaNTA uses only SGRGMP. The overlap of ghaNTA and bhairavi in this area is a point to be noted.

In T Vishwanathan's rendition of Sri kamalAMbike avAva, in the last lines of the charanam he switches to this form of ghaNTA briefly, hitting R2 in MGRS and D2 in SdNS.

Now coming to the most popular model, #5, the copper ghaNTA with gold plating. This version uses R1 for SRS, SGRS and MGRS and R2 only in GRG. Curiously some key ghaNTA phrases like NDNS and SDNS are seldom seen in any compositions rendered in this version, but on the rare occasion they come, D2 is used (the allegorical gem on the handle, or that small amount of tin to make it a bronze bell). Apart from that the upper half is just like dhanyAsi, but with some additional phrases, consisting of a kampita hovering on the N2 and occasionally, some NDP phrases that are handled in an Ahiri like manner.

The use of D2 phrases decides the exact chemical makeup of the alloy used for this ghaNTA. If this ghaNTA used D2 much more often via Sd, sdns, pndnS or ndns, I'd have very well declared it to be the true bell metal ghaNTA, preferred for modern bells. But since such phrases are seen only occasionally, we may finally settle this ghaNTA as a bronze bell with gold plating and leaf work. In compositions where the D2 cannot be found, it would be a gold plated copper bell.

This ghaNTA has been for long the prized possession of the Dhanammal school. It's quite a pristine bhAshAnga version. Special mention to the padam neyyamuna (actually the pallavi is "Ayyayyo"). There is some doubt on the composer, but the Dhanammal school sticks to Koranadu Natesa Pillai. There's a high chance this padam has been composed this way, in this version of ghaNTA right from the beginning.

So what better example than T Brinda herself? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rK29BKtcjk
And of course Alamelu Mani, live performance : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7sDLSOke1Y

Also the modern renditions of the Dikshitar navAvarnam, Sri kamalAmbikE avAva are in this ghaNTA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7sDLSOke1Y - DKJ of course is the one to go to for navavarnams. There are plenty of other renditions on the net if you want more. While it is close to SSP in the swaras used, it is very much gilded bell metal ghaNTA.

Between the Dhanammal school and the DKP school, I conclude this is the best modern bell in the market today.

T Vishwanathan's flute rendition can be found on Ravi Rajagopalan's article : http://guruguha.org/blog/2016/10/07/ghanta-raga-era/

Interestingly, Mani Krishnaswamy despite that recording of gAravimpa rA rA, sticks to this ghaNTA in her rendition of the navavarnam : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGmdejaq3V8

This ghaNTA was also the one sung by Smt. Sowmya at the MA for the RTP. I heard it myself and verified.

So far so good. Right? Wait, I left one ghaNTA out till this point. The pure gold, upAnga ghaNTA, never heard until now. And I am going to devote the entirety of my next post only to it, as this not only needs a detailed discussion, but it also helps in understanding all the other ghaNTAs.
Last edited by SrinathK on 15 Nov 2020, 10:29, edited 4 times in total.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

As per SSP, versions of ghaNTA using D2 and R2 / R1 or both have existed back in the day as well. But Subbarama Dikshitar, while accepting of other schools, is a stickler to his tradition (and the whole SSP is like the ultimate proof of that). In all other ragas where multiple possibilities of a note exist, in the SSP they have been indicated as flat, natural or sharp. At least at one place the default choice would be indicated and other variations indicated explicitly where used. But no symbols are used for the ghaNTA compositions in SSP, which is clearly indicated as as an upAnga. By contrast, bhairavi, Ahiri, mukhAri and mAnji are all bhAshAnga ragas with additional notes.

This might be debated, but this is a case of when the simplest possible solution turns out to be the elegant one. This means that this ghaNTA must be given its due. All prior texts (Venkatamakhin, Muddu Venkatamakhin, Tulaja and Shahaji) have put ghaNTA under bhairavi's mela.

Therefore, I present to you, the Lost Melodies SSP version of Dikshitar's Sri mangalAmbikAm, in pure gold ghaNTA, in mishra jhampa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIx6M9jQURU

Listen to that again. Oh yes, can you believe it? It will make a fine main number which can be given the full treatment, and a fine mangalam too.

I confess when I first heard it, I was not at all prepared for the emotional power of this ghaNTA. It has given me goosebumps. I've since then learnt the song myself from the text - this kriti is just exquisite. A pure ghaNTA is a raga like no other, having no ambiguity or overlap with Ahiri, dhanyAsi, punnAgavarALi or modern asAvEri and distinguishing itself from bhairavi as well.

One can see the difference between the SSP notation and that other modern version I shared in the previous post, which doesn't come close. How could a kriti get changed to that extent? And it's musically a downgrade.

Note : One point needs to be made here, is that in the last part of the charanam, the Telugu edition has a strange phenomenon of "octave jumps" at vanajAsana, at vanchita and tripurasundarim. At first Dr. A followed the Telugu manuscript in the recording, but since then, while discussing it we had a doubt looking at the English edition. So after some consultation and cross checking, we concluded that this may be due to printing issues resulting in not having the dot above the note to indicate mel sthayi in the original, something fixed in the English version. That being corrected, I observed curiously that somehow the first two jumps actually felt special, connecting N to s and s to N. It would make an interesting variation. It's not actually wrong.

And at this point, it should be obvious, but Sri kamalAmbikE avAva is also notated in this exact manner in SSP, which means a pure gold ghaNTA version is in the works and will be out soon. As it turns out, Kumbakonam is not far from where I am right now and I must go sing Sri mangaLambikAm to the goddess herself on whom MD composed this masterpiece. Also as per Ravi Rajagopalan's article, there is a vigraha of Govinda Dikshitar (the father of Venkatamakhin and ancestor of Maha Periyava) there opposite the deity, so it has additional significance to MD.

The same ghaNTA also comes up in Ramaswamy Dikshitar's ragamalika opus "sAmaja gamana", where RD, in his style of using similar ragas in ragamalikas, has a charanam where the first line is ghaNTA and the last line is Ahiri (the old one, mela 20).

In this ghaNTA many points of phrases and gamakas may be observed, from which the other versions of ghaNTA can be understood by comparison :

1) It is a heavy raga, as heavy as any bhairavi today. The G2 and M1 will remind you of bhairavi. But it also allows for many places where plain G2, D1, N2 and M1 are used and held as kaarvais. In essence any note can be sung plain in the right spot. The nokku gamaka is also prevalent on all these notes, which increases the weight of the raga.
2) Only D1 is used everywhere. Even in SDNS and NDNS and PNDNS. This gives it a distinct character from bhairavi and mAnji and even the other ghaNTas which use D2. There is no confusing this raga with husEni when D1 is used in PNDNS.
3) Only R2 is used, which makes the raga much more mellow in the style of bhairavi and mukhari. There is no confusing this raga with dhanyAsi. The R1 ghaNTA on the other hand, is brought close to dhanyAsi.
4) It is actually a raga with vast potential.
5) The kampitas / valis / orikkais on G, M, N and D (including that beautiful D(N)P gamaka while singing D,P,) are the key phrases imparting flavor to the raga
6) PS, PSNS, PNDNS are more prevalent than PNS
7) PGMP is a key phrase here, with a direct slide from P to G. This phrase exists in the modern version of ghaNTA as well and is also found in old dhanyAsi, old (jana) tODi, and old Ananda bhairavi and it has fallen out of use in the latter two today.
8) PDND is used.
9) Only SGRG is used by the Dikshitar school. No SGM. But all ghaNTa versions have a direct S-P phrase bypassing SGRG which has been used. This is also logical as a direct SGMP or SMGMP leads to ghaNTa being reduced to either dhanyAsi or AbhEri.
10) Although SSP has mentioned use of R1 in SGRS, NRS and SRS, using R1 only at these places is very jarring on the ear and conflicts with the rest of the raga. While 18 carat gold works well in the real world, in raga metallurgy the two metals simply don't mix. :lol: No wonder other versions of ghaNTA are R1 dominant. Having introduced R1, it would inevitably have to go full copper bell, keeping R2 only on GRG.
11) Similarly for D2, no point introducing it only at one place and for it to sound out of place. Hence the origin of the pure gold analogy for this ghaNTA. It's easy to see how it could have come about. N2 in ghaNTA is full of gamakas like nokku and kampita. In playing them D2 would be virtually used as a point of oscillation and it might very well have become a real note in short order. Even in the recording of Dr. A, you get the feel of it on that N2, similar to G2 in tODi where R2 seems to virtually appear.
12)To avoid confusing it with Ahiri, one should not apply every gamaka on every raga the same way or in the same context or overuse a special occurrence in one raga which maybe a standard phrase in another. SSP has no ambiguity in this regard.

In the case of ghaNTA, you realize that given the antiquity of this centuries old raga, the R1 D2 traditions from Venkatamakhi's days have gained a complete monopoly over the raga today to the extent where nobody would believe that an upanga version even existed at all. But we have found a pure gold ghaNTA in the museum. It did not take us long to understand the history of the CM bell shop and how the bronze / copper / bell metal bells eventually became the customers' choice, until the attempt to make the ultimate multi metal bell backfired and led to the current opinion of ghaNTA as a raga with no clear identity.

I have been told that some older versions of ghaNTA do exist with some surprising phrases, but without further information I cannot write anything more.

For ghaNTA, at least, in the case of Dikshitar, we have sufficient clarity now. But in the case of Thyagaraja, only by his blessings we may be able to find out all his keertanams and how he had envisioned them.

ghaNTA is probably the best example of why beyond a point, it is no longer logical to group all the versions of a raga under a single name and try to come to one version on which everyone will agree - after much study and debate one eventually realises that far too much differentiation has happened for any kind of "reconciliation" and each version needs its separate space to thrive. In such cases it is best to treat them as separate ragas.

Therefore for me it will always be ghaNTAs, not ghaNTA.
Last edited by SrinathK on 15 Nov 2020, 10:46, edited 2 times in total.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: ghanTa

Post by SrinathK »

@arasi We need a poem for this.

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