Difference in sound between a south indian and north indian

[thenpaanan]

This is a question that has puzzled me for a long time. Many musician friends of mine who have a Carnatic Music background have preferred a north Indian tanpura so much so that they would make the trip to Miraj (near Pune) to purchase one and lug it to the US. Of course with the advent of electronic boxes the whole tanpura business itself is somewhat slow.

-- But the question never left me: what is exactly the difference in sound between the two traditional tanpuras?

-- Is there a big difference in the spectra between the two (i.e. not just a volume difference)?

-- Is there a difference in playing technique? e.g. I have heard that the north indian tanpura is more curved and the strings are set farther apart.

-- among the electronic tanpuras that we get today -- are they they closer in sound to the south indian tanpura or the north indian one?

-- Why do some north indian musicians have not one but two tanpuras, given that the north indian tanpura is typically even louder than the south indian one?

-- Does the volume or the sound of the tanpura have any effect on the singer in the case of vocal concerts? Do you have to sing louder if the tanpura is too loud? Do you have to be extra careful about sruthi shuddham if you use one or the other kind of tanpura? etc etc.

Best regards,
Then Paanan

[saveri]

The NI tanpura is crafted very differently from the SI version.It has a large frame little curved with strings slightly wide apart. The twang is good and the resonance longer.

One thing good about it is that it can be rested on the ground as it has a hollow , which is a concave and sits pretty on the ground. Hence playing it is very comfortable.

The SI version is the Tanjore version/ variations and is round bottomed, with sleek frame and strings slightly closer. The sound is slightly more shrill as compared to the NI counterpart. Cannot be kept on the ground. Has to be lapped for all the time of the concert which is a big effort for the strummer.

The NI artistes keep two tanpuras as they have long drawn karvais singing with sruti at the backdrop. Also one is tuned for the Nishad sruti. They also strum the tanpura themselves while singing as theirs is only melody based singing.
No tal , kanakku vazhakku vyavaharams.Hence the hands are free, to strum


The SI singers have a lot to do on stage. They need to atten to three or four things at a time . Hence the need to have somebody else do the job.

One tambura is enough to produce enough sruti value for the stage, as the violin keeps the next.

Just like we sing a lot in Madhyama sruti, they sing with Nishadha as adhara sruti for some ragas. Hence the two tanpuras.

Tamizh la sollanum na, the SI tambura sound "konjam adakkama irukkum, the NI konjam mozhangi irukkum."

[rshankar]

Has to be lapped for all the time of the concert which is a big effort for the strummer.

This implies that SI tambUrA needs to be cuddled!:P

[uday_shankar]

saveri, some errors.

The NI artistes keep two tanpuras

Not always true and not necessary.

Also one is tuned for the Nishad sruti

Not always true. Only sometimes and only kakali NI. Usually for ragas that have kakali NI and are nishadantya.

Just like we sing a lot in Madhyama sruti, they sing with Nishadha as adhara sruti for some ragas

Not true. Having a kakali NI helps because there are long kaarvais on that note for nishadantya ragas like Yaman, Purya dhanashri, etc... But the aadhara ALWAYS remains Sa. This is VERY different from south Indians having madhyama shruti, where the aadhaara is changed lock,stock and barrel. The term madhyama shruti is really misleading, it does not mean that Madhyama is now the aadhaara. It just means that "the pitch of what used to be M1 is now S" for the duration of this song.

Also one more difference...north Indian tampuras are often exquisitely well-tuned while south Indian ones are often out of tune .

[maniomani]

The North Indian Tanpura is made out of "Suraikkai' shell which is very thin. Because of this there is more resonance and more of higher frequencies.
The South Indian Tanpura is carved out of wood resulting in thick shell which absorbs much of the higher frequencies and some of the volume also.
The diference is just like the Sitar and the Veena.
The South Indian Tanpuras are in no way less in quality of sound. The sound is more majestic and round and not sharp. But volume is low. If you play them through a amplification system both would be equally charming to listen to.
Spacing of the strings has no effect on the sound. Plucking and tuning is a very delicate art and you rarely come across a person who can tune and play a tanpura without letting out the plucking sound.

[saveri]

Srimaan Uday ,

The 'out of tune' statement is rather unkind.

The SI also is tuned very well.

I would say that NI students are taught at a very young age to tune the tanpura and be very sensitive to it. Also the karvai based sangeetham makes them sruti sensitive, compared to the SI counterparts.

In relation to the above,the SI students sometimes don't see a tambura even. Forget tuning.

Also i guess the SI students / singers / teachers are so obsessed with repertoire, that the sensitivity to sruti is not cultivated deeply right at the beginning. Which is why i guess in the medieval phase singing of Padams also ran out of vogue .

For us we have to even cultivate swara sthana shuddham, for every raga, right at a young age , which again is sadly missing. People say R1 , R2 etc. But the subtle difference or manouevering needs to be cultivated with practice and focus.

More SI students should be taught to tune a tambura.

For this i would strongly recommend every one who is interested in music to read the MASTERPIECE ARTICLE BY NONE OTHER THEAN THE GREAT " SANGITA KALANIDHI MUDICONDAN VENKATARAMA IYER" ON 'HOW TO TUNE THE TAMBURA ' AND STRUM IT AS WELL.

[saveri]

More to go ...

It is a must read.

Article available in the Mudicondan Centenary issue (1999).

Thanks for the input on the Nishadha sruti in the NI system. I stand corrected and also knowledgeable by one more input.

Saveri

[shanks]

Saveri wrote

Also i guess the SI students / singers / teachers are so obsessed with repertoire, that the sensitivity to sruti is not cultivated deeply right at the beginning. Which is why i guess in the medieval phase singing of Padams also ran out of vogue .

More than the students/singer/teachers, the listeners are the most obsessed with repertoire. The most common sentence in the reviews posted here and elsewhere is "He/She sang the same songs in my city/sabha". After all, the performers react to the audience - hence the phenomenon of quantity overwhelming the quality.

A quote that i am reminded of in this regard from a reputed musician/teacher is:

It is not the quantity (number of compositions) that matters, but the quality that matters - in other words, one's ability to perform the compositions perfectly and then with greater level embellishments that is of utmost importance.

[ramakriya]

More than the students/singer/teachers, the listeners are the most obsessed with repertoire. The most common sentence in the reviews posted here and elsewhere is "He/She sang the same songs in my city/sabha". After all, the performers react to the audience - hence the phenomenon of quantity overwhelming the quality.

A quote that i am reminded of in this regard from a reputed musician/teacher is:

It is not the quantity (number of compositions) that matters, but the quality that matters - in other words, one's ability to perform the compositions perfectly and then with greater level embellishments that is of utmost importance.

While I agree that quality is more important than quantity, if every performing artiste (and teacher) wanted to perfect only a small number of compositions, then a big chunk of exisiting compositions would be lost for future generations ..

-Ramakriya

[saveri]

Why do we always discuss any issue in an ' either this or that " situation?

Not one , be it quantity or quality should suffer. Both are equally important

What is being said here is that quality first, quantity next. There is an evolution in every walk of life and apply that to music learning too.

Why the hurry to jump the signal?

At the beginning stages , the emphasis has to be on assimilation, internalisation of the raga and the song. For this qualtiy alone will help.

For e.g., Take Todi, understand it , from a couple of varnams , a couple medium and heavy weight songs, internalise the song and the raga alongwith it , correct your mistakes and then see what difference it makes to your mental capacity.

Thereafter learn as many songs as you can in Todi and then see how many hues , shades and colours Todi can present to you.

I think the thought and the approach is more important. If this is done correctly then, posterity will not only get a huge chunk of compositions , but compositions which have been chiselled beautifully by master artistes. !

[lifeisasong]

Hello I am a new member here. I was brought up listening to Hindustani music and I have just started Carnatic music (vocal) lessons. I don't speak a single South Indian language but I hope to remedy that over time. I would like to ask questions as I progress, forgive me if I sound childish-I am a new born baby as far as the technalities of music go!

My question is, is it common for Carnatic singers to sing without a tambura? I recently attended the concert of a very famous singer and all I could see was the violin (not even an elctronic tambura-but that may have been so small as not to be visible from the audience).

Also my teacher is advising me not to bother with getting a manual tambura and learning how to tune it and to stick to an electronic tambura (this may be because we are in London). I am a bit uncomfortable about this, should I learn anyway. Does it matter whether I learn it now, in the early days of my lessons or is it ok to wait and learn later?

I would be very grateful for your opinions.

[saveri]

There are some practical problems these days to get some one to strum the tambura in the concert. Big musicians get their students or even clos fans to do the job.

The middle level singers invariably find it dificult to get someone to do the job, Even if they get one 'so called tambura artiste' , they do not strum it well . Hence the switch over to the easier options, like the electronic ones in all sizes. These days people also use sruti CD and play it through the concert.

Coming the issue of buying one and learning to tune it, my sincere advise is to do so ASAP,, if you are a sincere student / lover of Indian classical music.

Forget the practicalities. It develops a good ear for pitch and sound if you learn to tune a tambura and strum one without even singing, it gives immense joy to the mind and soul soul and some exercise to your fingers and body.

Lifeisasong, tune it ! ! !

[lifeisasong]

Thanks Saveri! I believe the temperature in London is a problem for tamburas, but it shouldn't be in my house which is maintained at Indian temperatures!

[srikant1987]

What is being said here is that quality first, quantity next.

That is very true. After any qualitative change, the new songs will adhere to that new quality. On the other hand, if someone learns a hundred songs, and then suddenly is made to appreciate correct shrutis more, and then learns a two hundred songs, the first hundred songs will still be of poor quality — and perhaps the student will doubt his/her own knowledge of it since the knowledge doesn't conform to their new quality standards. So the first hundred songs are as good as never learnt!

[srikant1987]

It develops a good ear for pitch and sound if you learn to tune a tambura and strum one without even singing, it gives immense joy to the mind and soul soul and some exercise to your fingers and body.

Does mridangam or violin / veena / gottu vadyam tuning not develop the same ear for pitch and sound?

[mohan]

Which are the best electronic tamburas? I am pretty happy with a Raagini model I bought a few years ago. How does the Digital Raagini compare to offerings from Radel and other companies?

A lot of artistes use CD/mp3 recordings of an acoustic tambura and play this through small speakers on stage. There is probably a market for a device that is basically a mp3 player with built in speakers and has pre-loaded recordings of tambura in all main sruthis (+madhyamam, -panchamam and -madhyamam). Only thing is that manual tuning probably won't be possible.

[srikant1987]

No tal , kanakku vazhakku vyavaharams.Hence the hands are free, to strum


The SI singers have a lot to do on stage. They need to atten to three or four things at a time . Hence the need to have somebody else do the job.
But we see Tyagarajaswamy and Syama Sastri singing playing their own tambura, keeping talam with the left hand. Agreed they weren't singing in a sabhaa when their portraits were made.

And also, what about instrumentalists?

[lifeisasong]

I use a Radel and am pretty happy with it-its small and easy to carry around. The only thing I miss is holding a tanpura and feeling the vibration and sound go through my body as I used to with my parents tanpuras when I was younger.

[martin]

I would like to add a small contribution, speaking from my experience in my side-function of tanpura/tambura repairman and jivariwalla as well as tanpura-artist, having played a lot for both NI and SI musicians. I have repaired and played in concerts for demanding musicians all types of instruments. Having access to previously repaired or otherwise serviced instruments, I will always prefer to use a large Tanjore for Karnataka Sangeet, since I know of a beautiful instrument. Also, it being made of jackwood fits in with Sarasvati Veena and Mridangam. Indeed, as mentioned earlier, since the tambura is heavier and all-wood, the tone gets to be a bit darker and of different shades of colour compared to a Miraj vocal male tanpura. Other influences to darken the tone somewhat: rosewood bridges in stead of bone, sometimes wound strings are used for the karaj and/or pancham, sometimes bunches of wool are found under the strings - obviously for the same purpose.
I remember very well a concert tour with Veena and Mridangam artists that was a delight in tonal purity. After having set it up properly for the desired sruti and played in a lot before the concerts, the instruments blended perfectly together creating a strong and clear web of harmonic resonance. Using my own, beautiful old Miraj would not have worked as well.
I can only compare the difference in sound between a Tanjore and a Miraj as that between an Italian harpsichord and a French (17th century models), a somewhat dry, slightly nasal tone, but clear and precise.
A practical point: I read a remark above that, since the tambura with its spheric bottom could not stand and needed cuddling all the time. Well if you want to get close that's OK. But to let the instrument sing out freely without being damped by all this cuddling, I quite liked to play it by setting her upright before me in of of those rings for tabla banyans, works perfectly. Since she is bottom-heavy, a good fitting ring well set her stable.
There are many varieties of tanpuras, scales, types etc. but they all have their uses if they are used well where it's appropriate.

[cienu]

Thanks Martin

Thats was a wonderful write up.

[Nick H]

Fascinating, Martin. Thank you

[rshankar]

Martin that was a nice, and detailed write up. I particulary liked the gender assignment!

[martin]

For those who are interested, here are some links to texts that I wrote concerning the tanpura.
The one article about fine-tuning and in defense of the waning tradition of having capable tanpura-artists was written 5 years ago, in order to share my insights and experience and possibly create some discussion on whether it is good in the long run to use synthesized tanpuras.



http://www.martinspaink.mimemo.net/
For accessing an article about fine-tuning of tanpura's, follow:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/martin_est.html
or at Ashish Sankrityayan's Dhrupad-website:
http://www.dhrupad.info/articles.htm
debate on tanpura: http://omenad.net/articles/tanpura_debate.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambura#India

[vk]

Sir CV Raman was the first person to analyse the motion of a string in the case of plucked indian string instruments. In mathematical terms the condition at the bridge is referred to as the moving boundary condition. String motion in the case of indian plucked string istruments is very different from a normally plucked string instrument like a guitar. The string motion is very similar to the helmholtz motion that a bowed instrumnet exhibits. There is modulation of the string lenght whihc results in a minor pitch translation and also decay in the amplitude

[martin]

It develops a good ear for pitch and sound if you learn to tune a tambura and strum one without even singing, it gives immense joy to the mind and soul soul and some exercise to your fingers and body.

Does mridangam or violin / veena / gottu vadyam tuning not develop the same ear for pitch and sound?

I would like to reply that I sincerely believe that every focused session of tanpura/tambura tuning (this is a bit like he/she issues in texts, I do not want to leave the tambura out) does something to heighten your sensory perception and mind-mapping it all: you have to learn your way through the woods.
As tanpura jivari is the only instance of using threads, it allows control over the timbre of each string. This gives a scope for either a lot of different options in tuning or just a lot of trouble for others. I do not think there is any other instrument that is so malleable in its finer resonances, apart from the voice of course. So the aspirant tuner has to be able to enter with his hearing inside the sound, learn to listen with a 'prismatic ear' to the harmonics of each string, and induce a particular order in chaos. I quote from an article on fine-tuning, or meta-tuning as it concerns not the fundamental but the alignment of particular harmonics that pervade the animated tone of tanpura strings.

>> First of all, the daily business of tuning the tanpura is a valuable stimulation to further develop our aural perception. Tuning a tanpura makes great demands on our hearing faculties and requires us to make a conscious effort (svara-sadhana). When tuning the tanpuras, the artists attune themselves to the raga that is going to be performed. I believe that for the audience these are also valuable moments of involving anticipation. The audience is given time to settle down and can appreciate the atmosphere which is being created by the tuning process. The late Dagar-brothers (if not all members, past or present, of the family) would not previously decide what they were going to sing at a concert, sometimes to the distress of organizers. This decision was made spontaneously during the tuning process, or rather, some raga manifested itself while tuning. This conscious effort or svara sadhana is so important as in the tuning process the artist seeks to create a particular resonance or colour of sound that will suit the chosen raga. This is related to the concept of raga svaroop, which means essentially that a particular intonation of one or more svaras can evoke the image or feeling (rasa) of a particular raga. (...) I believe it was Zahiruddin Dagarsaheb who once said that tuning the tanpura creates intelligence. Obviously, fiddling with the controls of a synthesized tanpura is not quite as edifying. <<

quote from:
For accessing an article about fine-tuning of tanpura's, follow:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/martin_est.html

[PUNARVASU]

Martin, your posts are all very informative and educative. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[narayan]

Am curious about how musicians used to tune tamburas in mid performance in concerts of yesteryear. Unlike North Indian music, where the harmonium can/could be relied upon to provide the pitch, would south indian musicians dig out a pitch pipe and do the necessary tuning?
Narayan Rangaraj

[thenpaanan]

Am curious about how musicians used to tune tamburas in mid performance in concerts of yesteryear. Unlike North Indian music, where the harmonium can/could be relied upon to provide the pitch, would south indian musicians dig out a pitch pipe and do the necessary tuning?
Narayan Rangaraj

I don't know if this can be generalized but I have seen one instance. I once saw Sri B Rajam Iyer bring out a pitch pipe to tune a tambura (it belonged to the organizers) before a concert. But his pitch pipe was a really tiny penny-whistle-type affair with one note, not the circular twelve-note pitch pipe.

-Then Paanan

[martin]

To bring out a pitchpipe would indicate that everybody's tuning is gone, or that the person trying to establish what is wrong is unsecure about his Shadja. If only the tanpura is a bit out of tune, it is usually only one string or so. Pitchpipes or anything with a similar function should only have to be used long before the concert starts.
Luckily not all Hindustani concerts are played using harmonium. A sensitive tambura-artist should be able to make necessary corrections without interrupting the continuity, and should need no external references other than the strings under his fingers. I would expect this meddling halfway a concert with pitchpipes only from inexperienced amateurs.

[martin]

Or to be more precise, in my experience, I'm informed of the desired sruti sufficiently early so that I can select and prepare the proper tanpura for this sruti, I go and meet the musicians in their hotel or wherever they are, and seek their approoval.
Stability of pitch depends first of all on a properly set-up instrument, tuned to the proper sruti and played to warm-up before the concert. This is all in preparation and experience. During the actual performance, it would seem to depend mostly on the
concentration of the player, if all other factors are benevolent. I noticed during a concert that an out of practice pakhaawaji, besura and betala, can ruin the finer effects of a good tuning, as do singers with faltering intonation but don't worry I'm very well-behaved. Another big one is the lighting technician wanting to do a light-show for added dramatic effect by changing the colors of the light, and thus the temperature, and maybe something else, not to mention drafts, mechanical humming of airconditioners or what have you etc. Some you can't beat but usually if everybody is sensible matters can be put straight.
Otherwise, I would say that the more experienced the tanpura-players are, sruti will be perfect and should inspire all, as long as artists are willing to come up to the test by singing or playing sufficiently in tune with the tanpura. In some cases I came across younger artists who almost grew up with boxes in stead of real instruments, who preferred their boxes to my tanpura for a good reason, so they would out-drown me or even totally forget me when switching to another raga that required a P-M shift, they just pushed a button and hit it. They don't need, want, nor care, they're happy as is. So I quit, and yes, they were from the South were as I have heard tamburas are known to have become dusty and rusty and hardly seen nor heard in concerts, its almost as if they're singing naked or something...this in the sense that it is a dissociative situation.

[thenpaanan]

In some cases I came across younger artists who almost grew up with boxes in stead of real instruments, who preferred their boxes to my tanpura for a good reason, so they would out-drown me or even totally forget me when switching to another raga that required a P-M shift, they just pushed a button and hit it. They don't need, want, nor care, they're happy as is. So I quit, and yes, they were from the South were as I have heard tamburas are known to have become dusty and rusty and hardly seen nor heard in concerts, its almost as if they're singing naked or something...this in the sense that it is a dissociating situation, ie. unreal.

That reminds me of a visiting SI concert artist who told me to pack up my tanpura that I had offered him (he told me it was "deafening") and instead used his electronic box that produced a steady tone rather than the plucked version and cranked up the volume way high. Whatever works, I guess.

Thanks again to Martin for his great insight and unique contribution to tanpura playing. I was quite stunned by a rather delectable recording of his strumming of a tanpura. Who would have thought there would be so much pleasure in such a simple thing?


-Then Paanan

[narayan]

In the recent concert by Saketharaman in Mumbai, only the electronic tambura was used, and I felt the absence of the real thing on more than one occasion, especially since he had a tendency to keep fiddling with the volume. About volume, I am in favour of having the sruthi pretty clearly audible throughout, and it is not at all a distraction. Refusing a real one when a player is available is odd to me. I would have thought that the only hurdle to its use would be availability of a good instrument and a person to strum it. I have personally gone back exclusively to the real thing (a friend's instrument is fortunately at hand) although I'm quite often carpal-tunneled out and find it increasingly difficult. But tuning it before beginning itself is an act of art and gives me some satisfaction.

[thenpaanan]

In the recent concert by Saketharaman in Mumbai, only the electronic tambura was used, and I felt the absence of the real thing on more than one occasion, especially since he had a tendency to keep fiddling with the volume. About volume, I am in favour of having the sruthi pretty clearly audible throughout, and it is not at all a distraction. Refusing a real one when a player is available is odd to me. I would have thought that the only hurdle to its use would be availability of a good instrument and a person to strum it. I have personally gone back exclusively to the real thing (a friend's instrument is fortunately at hand) although I'm quite often carpal-tunneled out and find it increasingly difficult. But tuning it before beginning itself is an act of art and gives me some satisfaction.

To be honest, I was quite miffed that my tambura offer was rejected but after a while I started to rethink it. The musician probably saw the tanpura as superfluous, given that he already had an electronic box and wanted to keep it simple, that's all. My own love of the tambura sound is probably too lopsided -- many a time I find myself resenting the intrusion of the singer's voice into the sound of the tambura That musician probably had a more balanced view than I.

-Then Paanan

[VK RAMAN]

I am in favour of having the sruthi pretty clearly audible throughout

[Shivadasan]

The sound of the tanpuras were very different in the case of the concerts of Pt. Kumar Gandharva and Pt. Omkarnath Thakur. Kumarji used only 2 tanpuras but he was fastidious in tuning them that, some time it took 45 minutes to tune. Once tuned the sound twin tanpuras was something out of this world. Anyone who hears his concert recording, particularly at the start when the tanpuras go on for some time, would be able to understand what I mean. You do not hear tanpuras you hear a single beautiful sound ebbing in and out very pleasantly. Twin Tanpuras can create a magical effect.

Pt. Omkarnathji used four tanpuras with more or less a similar effect. Instead of finding out how to get best out of them are we not blaming the instruments ?

[thenpaanan]

The sound of the tanpuras were very different in the case of the concerts of Pt. Kumar Gandharva and Pt. Omkarnath Thakur. Kumarji used only 2 tanpuras but he was fastidious in tuning them that, some time it took 45 minutes to tune. Once tuned the sound twin tanpuras was something out of this world. Anyone who hears his concert recording, particularly at the start when the tanpuras go on for some time, would be able to understand what I mean. You do not hear tanpuras you hear a single beautiful sound ebbing in and out very pleasantly. Twin Tanpuras can create a magical effect.

Pt. Omkarnathji used four tanpuras with more or less a similar effect. Instead of finding out how to get best out of them are we not blaming the instruments ?

Is it possible that when you have two tanpuras in a room that are perfectly in unison, it creates with positive interference large waves in the space around (rather than just inside the tanpura) that the audience can sense? After all, sound waves are pressure waves and our skin can sense pressure as well. But the mere thought of having two perfectly tuned tanpuras together gives me a frisson, even though I have never actually experienced such a thing.

It sort of reminds me of a long-forgotten passage in T. Janakiraman's novel "mOga muL" where the protagonist, a CM student, witnesses a visiting group of HMusicians who bring with them their "big" north Indian tanpura. The word picture that he draws of the sound of that tanpura filling the space in the small temple is something to be read and relished.

-Then Paanan

[Shivadasan]

Science says that when the same note is played from two sources the sound waves interact with each other and creates a special pattern that is pleasing to the human ears. It is seen in 'rettai nayanam' kutcheris when both instruments stay in one swara for some seconds. I have seen in Tiruvizhimalai brothers concert three nayanams joining together.
The same plesure can be enjoyed somewaht to a lesser extent when samvadi notes (Sa Ma, Sa Pa) join together.