Venkatamakhin - Chaturdandi Prakasika

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Mar 2006, 01:46

I was reading up on the history of indian music and saw this

"The most important work of Venkatamakhin (Venkateswara Dikshita) is the Chaturdandi Prakasika (AD 1635) in sanskrit. From the time of Ratnakara Music is thought to have four aspects - alaap, hasya, prabandha and geetha. Chaturdandi is the collective name for these four aspects."

I assume the alaap is same as present day alaapana. I would appreciate if someone can comment on how the other three map to today's music practice?

param · Post by **param** » 29 Mar 2006, 12:30

VK,

I am still searching - the moment I get anything worthwhile, I will send you details.

Best wishes,

Param

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 05:58

VK
The 4 daNDis are:- AlApa, gIta, THAya and prabandha.

AlApa, yes the same as AlApane.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 06:07

gIta specifically refers to "sAlagasUDa" which is considered to have later developed to suLAdi. sUDa is a kannaDa word meaning "song". sAlaga is a morph of chAyAlaga.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 06:17

prabandhas refer to the other various types of compositions that are made of(upto) the 6 angas and 4 dhAtus. The 6 angas being- swara, biruda, pada, tEnaka, pATa, tAla.

The 4 dhAtus refer to the 4 parts/organs of the prabandha- udgrAha, AbhOga, mElApaka and dhruva.

The prabandhas are classified based into 6 classes based on the number of angas(1 through to 6). In the prabandhas there must be a minimum of 2 out of the 4 dhAtus. The 2 mandatory dhAtus are udgrAha and dhruva. Those with just these 2 angas are dvidhAtuka. The tridhAtuka prabandhas consist of AbhOga in addition to the above 2. caturdhAtuka of course contains all the 4 parts.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 06:19

Much of the details of the above maybe redundant as the prabandhas have gone out of vogue. Some have(may have) survived by morphing into present forms. The kaivADa prabandha has changed to tillAnas. In presnt day practice, the kRtis, varNas, tillAnas etc have taken the place of prabandhas.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 06:38

To my understanding, ThAyas are the same as ciTTe tAnas that are taught particularly to vINe artistes. These are swaras patterned as tAnas for practising on the vINe so as to get an idea of the rAga as well as playing tAnas.

IIRC tuLAja gives ThAyas for the rAgas in his book "sangIta sArAmRta". And you can see many ciTTe tAnas in the SSP.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Sep 2006, 06:47

Thanks for the information! What language is the prakASika written in?
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 06:49

sanskrit

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Sep 2006, 06:58

Thought so!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Sep 2006, 07:00

Thanks very much DRS for the detailed information.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 01 Sep 2006, 10:52

drshrikaanth wrote:To my understanding, ThAyas are the same as ciTTe tAnas that are taught particularly to vINe artistes. These are swaras patterned as tAnas for practising on the vINe so as to get an idea of the rAga as well as playing tAnas.

IIRC tuLAja gives ThAyas for the rAgas in his book "sangIta sArAmRta". And you can see many ciTTe tAnas in the SSP.

AFAIK, "ThAya" also includes an element of gragabhEda inbuilt in them - by changing the graha swara.

eg : BMK's rAga ThAya mALikA tillAna in Kalyani

Look at the following link

http://carnatica.net/special/kalyani-ppn.htm

quote from the above article:

"Balamuralikrishna composed (and renders) a tillAnA ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€¦Ã¢â‚¬Å“tanOm nOm tara tillAnA'' in rAgam kalyANi, in the style called ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€¦Ã¢â‚¬Å“ThAyam'' singing, where even though the rAgam rendered is kalyANi, it sounds like a different rAgam in each line. The lyric contains the phrases ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€¦Ã¢â‚¬Å“rAga ThAya mAlikaÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 13:21

ramakriya
In the light of what you said, the caturdaNDi prakASike does lend itself to such an interpretation although there is no specific mention of grhabhEda. Also this does not come thorugh in the sangIta sArAmRta. It would be interesting to know more about this.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 16:58

The ThAya prakaraNa frpm the CP

Evam ShaShThaprakaraNE orOktam AlApalakShaNam |
saptamEtha prakaraNE ThAya lakShaNamucyatE ||1||

tattad rAgAnusArENa yatra kutrApi ca swarE |
sthitvA swaram tamEvAtha sthAyInam parikalpya ca ||2||

tatpurOvartiShu catuHswarEShvatha yathAkramam |
tattad rAgAnusArENArOhE tAna catuShTayam ||3||

avarohE tathA tAnacatuShTayamiti kramAt |
gItvA tAnAShTakam paScAdArabhya sthAyinam swaram ||4||

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 17:07

yaduktam kancidAkalpya vinyasEnmandra ShaDjakE |
sthAyisthitasya tasyaiva yaDupasyAbhidhIyatE ||5||

lOkE makariNItyEvam saj~nA muktAyikA tataH |
ThAyA sAmAnyalakShmEdam vEnkaTAdhvariNOditam ||6||

paramO gururasmAkam tAnappAcAryaSEkharaH |
sarvEShAmapi rAgANAm EtallakShyAnusArataH ||7||

ThAyAn prakalpayAmAsa lakShyamasya tadEva saH |

********************************************************************************************

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 01 Sep 2006, 17:16

DRS
Can you possibly explain what those slokas mean?
Take your time
Thank you

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Sep 2006, 17:18

O dont worry too much about the meanings Kiran. I just wrote them for reference. I will leave it to someone to do the translation.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 01 Sep 2006, 22:09

drshrikaanth wrote:The ThAya prakaraNa frpm the CP

Evam ShaShThaprakaraNE orOktam AlApalakShaNam |
saptamEtha prakaraNE ThAya lakShaNamucyatE ||1||

tattad rAgAnusArENa yatra kutrApi ca swarE |
sthitvA swaram tamEvAtha sthAyInam parikalpya ca ||2||

tatpurOvartiShu catuHswarEShvatha yathAkramam |
tattad rAgAnusArENArOhE tAna catuShTayam ||3||

avarohE tathA tAnacatuShTayamiti kramAt |
gItvA tAnAShTakam paScAdArabhya sthAyinam swaram ||4||

A loose translation:

Having described the characteristics of AlApa in sith chapter, we will describe the characteristics of ThAya in the seventh chapter. ||1||

According to each rAga's (mUrchana, scale, svara sequence), stay at some (each) of the svara , and assume the sthAyI bhAva (graha swara) to the swara location. ||2||

From each sach swara, perform four tAnas in the ArOhaNakrama as according the rAga ||3|

In the descent as well, perform four tAnas; After that at each sthAyI (graha) swara, sing eight gIta and tAnas(?) ||4||

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 Sep 2006, 03:50

The SlOka 2 describes the shifting of the sthAyi/tonic to successively higher/lower swaras. Which will result in creating the effect of change in the rAga. The "crucial" bit in the SlOka is "tattad rAgAnusArENa". As not all swaras of a rAga are necessarily mUrchanakAraka. In fact it is an exception to have all notes giving rise to mUrchanes. This will never happen in a heptatonic scale.

Of course this interpretation is provided we take it that this refers to the change in tonic. If they simply refer to tAnas, the interpretation of the crucial bit will change to "depending on the jIva and nyAsa swaras of the rAga".

I wonder if the grahabhEda concept is originally in the ThAya or is BMK's interpretation of it.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 02 Sep 2006, 10:09

drshrikaanth wrote:The SlOka 2 describes the shifting of the sthAyi/tonic to successively higher/lower swaras. Which will result in creating the effect of change in the rAga. The "crucial" bit in the SlOka is "tattad rAgAnusArENa". As not all swaras of a rAga are necessarily mUrchanakAraka. In fact it is an exception to have all notes giving rise to mUrchanes. This will never happen in a heptatonic scale.

Of course this interpretation is provided we take it that this refers to the change in tonic. If they simply refer to tAnas, the interpretation of the crucial bit will change to "depending on the jIva and nyAsa swaras of the rAga".

I wonder if the grahabhEda concept is originally in the ThAya or is BMK's interpretation of it.

IIRC Prof R Satyanarayana also talks about the grahabhEda interpretation of ThAya in his kannada translation of caturdaMDi prakAshike. I have to recheck.

And if you see the tilLAna, it is not attempt a regular grahabhEda on all the possible notes, but limits it to sancharas around a pivotal note - so we see shades of different rAgas, but never leaving the mother (!) rAga kalyANi. Just contrast it with the mother-of-grahabhEda pallavis ( This is not my term - Somebody called it so on RMIC

sarigamapadanI pADeda , composed by BMK in naTabhairavi, (and it's 4 grahabhedas)

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 Sep 2006, 15:34

ramakriya wrote:IIRC Prof R Satyanarayana also talks about the grahabhEda interpretation of ThAya in his kannada translation of caturdaMDi prakAshike. I have to recheck.

No. The kannaDa translation does not mention grahabhEda explicitly. I have the book.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Sep 2006, 19:28

ramakriya,

Even by venkatamakhin's time, i am not sure if it is clear if graha-swara implies tonic - thus to allow for the interpretation that a shift in graha-swara implies modal shift of tonic. This is even if one were to believe that time i.e. when the mela system was in vogue and the 2-gramas were out, sadja was the tonic. In CP, under classification of rAgas, you do have ragas separated into categories based on graha swara. How would we interpret that if graha-swara implies only tonic? Of course, one could say that only within the thAya context, graha implies tonic and thus shift of graha implies modal shift of tonic. This is no different from today, where graha-swara does not exclusively mean tonic (or graha implies tonic), but it is so within the context of graha-bEdham. But IMO, in CP there seems like a loose interpretation. Cant this shift in graha instead simply imply shift in focus to different swaras during a alApanA like today?

(BTW, i have a english translation (plus some critical comments) of CP by Prof. Satyanarayana, and the thaya chapter doesnt include any grahabhEda interpretation).

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 01 Dec 2006, 03:50

I just got this book - Looks like a must-have.

http://www.vedicbooks.net/caturdandipra ... l?cPath=34

I wonder how and why are offering this great book at this price!

In the kannaDa translation of caturdanDi (1978), RS mentions about another book he is writing on this subject. Don't know if it took 22 years for that to get published, but t this book has a publication date of 2000.

This popped into my horizon few weeks back. Grab your copy while it lasts! Given Sri R Satyanarayana's credentials, this would be the most authoritative work on caturdanDi. It will keep me busy for next few weeks.

-Ramakriya

p.s : arunk, Is this the book you were talking about?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Dec 2006, 04:10

yes. I have vol 1 (at that time vol2 wasnt published). I was expecting vol 2 to be on muddu-vEnkatamakhi's work. But doesnt seem so - although still looks useful!

$12 books for both volumes - that IS a steal! (Although shipping/handling probably doubles it?)

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 01 Dec 2006, 04:58

Including shipping it was only about $18! To top that I got a gift coupon for towards the purchase of another book. It is a steal alright!

In the foreward, he mentions that vol 3 would be on Mudduvenkatamakhi's work.

-Ramakriya

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 15 Dec 2006, 11:03

As a general info,Iam posting this.Shri.Venkatamahi belonged to the illustrious lineage of Govinda Dikshita,the Minister to Serfoji Raja of Tanjore.This lineage also had many illustrious sons like H.H.the 64th Acharya of Kamakoti Peetha and the recent Jivan Muktha 68th Acharya,Shri.Chandrasekarendra sarasvathi.Now with the blessings of H.H.they are constructing a memorial for Venkatamahi in his birth house which is now in Kumbakonam which is undertaken by The trust,Vadakodi Brindavam trust,24,Dabir middle street,Kumbakonam-612001>music lovers can contribute their mite in memory of the great savant

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Dec 2006, 02:23

baboosh wrote:As a general info,Iam posting this.Shri.Venkatamahi belonged to the illustrious lineage of Govinda Dikshita,the Minister to Serfoji Raja of Tanjore.This lineage also had many illustrious sons like H.H.the 64th Acharya of Kamakoti Peetha and the recent Jivan Muktha 68th Acharya,Shri.Chandrasekarendra sarasvathi.Now with the blessings of H.H.they are constructing a memorial for Venkatamahi in his birth house which is now in Kumbakonam which is undertaken by The trust,Vadakodi Brindavam trust,24,Dabir middle street,Kumbakonam-612001>music lovers can contribute their mite in memory of the great savant

Just a correction - Govinda dIkshita was a minister of Cevvappa nAyaka/RaghunAtha nAyaka etc (Nayaka rulers) not Sarabhoji ( who came in a century later)

-Ramakriya

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 16 Dec 2006, 20:32

Thanks for your correction

ramakriya wrote:
baboosh wrote:As a general info,Iam posting this.Shri.Venkatamahi belonged to the illustrious lineage of Govinda Dikshita,the Minister to Serfoji Raja of Tanjore.This lineage also had many illustrious sons like H.H.the 64th Acharya of Kamakoti Peetha and the recent Jivan Muktha 68th Acharya,Shri.Chandrasekarendra sarasvathi.Now with the blessings of H.H.they are constructing a memorial for Venkatamahi in his birth house which is now in Kumbakonam which is undertaken by The trust,Vadakodi Brindavam trust,24,Dabir middle street,Kumbakonam-612001>music lovers can contribute their mite in memory of the great savant
Just a correction - Govinda dIkshita was a minister of Cevvappa nAyaka/RaghunAtha nAyaka etc (Nayaka rulers) not Sarabhoji ( who came in a century later)

-Ramakriya

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 16 Dec 2006, 22:28

ayyavayyan was sarafoji's minister.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Dec 2007, 03:29

arunk wrote:yes. I have vol 1 (at that time vol2 wasnt published). I was expecting vol 2 to be on muddu-vEnkatamakhi's work. But doesnt seem so - although still looks useful!

$12 books for both volumes - that IS a steal! (Although shipping/handling probably doubles it?)

Arun

Did you all get these books for $12.00? Really? I just checked and the sale price itself is now $90.00 ( original price - $150.00 ).

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 17 Dec 2007, 03:38

For whatever reason, they sold me the set of two books at $22 when I bought it. Later I saw that the bargain price was not there any longer ..

I hope they will publish the third volume so...on

-Ramakriya

vaibhavam · Post by **vaibhavam** » 02 Jun 2008, 19:12

dear ramakriya
i have went thru the same that you encountered..
me too wait for the third volume ....

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 03 Jun 2008, 02:55

ramakriya wrote:
drshrikaanth wrote:The ThAya prakaraNa frpm the CP

Evam ShaShThaprakaraNE orOktam AlApalakShaNam |
saptamEtha prakaraNE ThAya lakShaNamucyatE ||1||

tattad rAgAnusArENa yatra kutrApi ca swarE |
sthitvA swaram tamEvAtha sthAyInam parikalpya ca ||2||

tatpurOvartiShu catuHswarEShvatha yathAkramam |
tattad rAgAnusArENArOhE tAna catuShTayam ||3||

avarohE tathA tAnacatuShTayamiti kramAt |
gItvA tAnAShTakam paScAdArabhya sthAyinam swaram ||4||
A loose translation:

Having described the characteristics of AlApa in sith chapter, we will describe the characteristics of ThAya in the seventh chapter. ||1||

According to each rAga's (mUrchana, scale, svara sequence), stay at some (each) of the svara , and assume the sthAyI bhAva (graha swara) to the swara location. ||2||

From each sach swara, perform four tAnas in the ArOhaNakrama as according the rAga ||3|

In the descent as well, perform four tAnas; After that at each sthAyI (graha) swara, sing eight gIta and tAnas(?) ||4||

-Ramakriya

tAnAShTakam refers to the total of the two tAna catuShTayas in the Aroha and avarOha orders. Singing eight more gItas and tAnas again after the two tAna catuShTayas is not meant here. The last line in the 4th verse should be understood as -

gItvA - having sung
tAnAShTakam - the eight tAnas,
paScAt - after that
Arabhya - starting (at)
sthAyinam swaram - the steady note

The full sense is to be got by combining with verse 5.

In the first verse, the pada orOktam is unclear. ora/A + uktam? Could you check the word and repost? The metre of the verse demands only one long (guru) syllable before the sound -ktam. There is no place for a laghu syllable (o) and a guru syllable (rO) as in orO-ktam. My guess is the line should only be,

Evam ShaShThaprakaraNe cOktam AlApalakshaNam.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 03 Jun 2008, 03:14

sanskritscholar wrote:In the first verse, the pada orOktam is unclear. ora/A + uktam? Could you check the word and repost? The metre of the verse demands only one long (guru) syllable before the sound -ktam. There is no place for a laghu syllable (o) and a guru syllable (rO) as in orO-ktam. My guess is the line should only be,

Evam ShaShThaprakaraNe cOktam AlApalakshaNam.

orOktam -> prOktam

Thanks to Dr.P.P.Narayanaswami,
The Sanskrit and English version of the CaturdaNDiprakAshikA can be downloaded here http://www.ibiblio.org/guruguha/cdp.htm
or here http://musicresearch.in/categorydetails.php?imgid=77

sands98 · Post by **sands98** » 09 Sep 2019, 10:24

Happy Day Sir,

I was going through the text Chaturdandi Prakashan.

Can you please let know where does this line appear in the text.

Gita-prabandha-sthaya-alapa-rupa-chatur –dandi

tried finding it.

not able to trace this line which mentions the core fundamental of the text.

if you could help me with the shloka number it will be really useful sir.

regards
Sandhya Sankar

rasikas.org

Venkatamakhin - Chaturdandi Prakasika

Re: Venkatamakhin - Chaturdandi Prakasika