Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Nov 2007, 01:52

Arun
That Darbar discussion is helpful. But the rules are not etched in stone. Judicious use of violations should be tolerable as long as the raga svaroopa is not destroyed. The janta is vital for darbar and hence should be preserved wherever possible. While gg,rs is builtin the avraohanam nn,dp which is equally common is not builtin. Also there is no consistency in the definitions though you have used SRJ there are others which do not include the jantai and hence permit mrgs and even mgrs ignoring vakrahood!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Nov 2007, 02:42

My personal preference would be not to overload the Aro/Ava with prayoga specific sequences and leave them to the listing of characteristic phrases. But then most people have gotten used to looking up only the Aro/Ava for the definition of the raga which is hopelessly incomplete.

If we simplify the Aro/Ava to its bare essentials, then many ragas might have the same Aro/Ava. People will then start considering them Allied ragas when the raga personality itself can be so different. That I guess is the danger of simplfying the Aro/Ava to its bare essentials.

I guess we have to reformulate the Aro/Ava as a plain old Set and not as an Ordered Sequence for non-vakra ragas, borrowing a computer science/math metaphor. Stictly speaking from set-theoretic point of view, a vanilla Set does not allow duplicates and it does not imply an order to its members. If you want to take it to the extreme, atleast for non-vakra ragas, the Set just contains the swaras allowed in a raga and each swara having a property whether it is Aro only, Ava Only or both. Then we can apply Arun's State Transition Algorithm (ASTA) to verify if a particular sequence is derivable from that Set.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Nov 2007, 02:53

Then perhaps somewhat like the MD paddhaati just list the notes that go into the raga (somewhat like the asampurna approach) and liist the characteristic phrases (not too many) and formulate rules of concordant use of the notes to embed the phrases in which will leave room for enough innovations and improvisations. That will kill the edifice of the melakartha approach and will it still be CM. Somewhat I think yes since most of us recognize ragas only through oft-used phrases. Shall we try with VKdhvani. We need to simplify the raga as it is since it cannot be sung vocally with voice ranges like mine!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Nov 2007, 02:54

cmlover wrote:Arun
That Darbar discussion is helpful. But the rules are not etched in stone. Judicious use of violations should be tolerable as long as the raga svaroopa is not destroyed. The janta is vital for darbar and hence should be preserved wherever possible. While gg,rs is builtin the avraohanam nn,dp which is equally common is not builtin. Also there is no consistency in the definitions though you have used SRJ there are others which do not include the jantai and hence permit mrgs and even mgrs ignoring vakrahood!

Yes these simply point to the fact that for many ragas, aro/avaro neither fits as a concise formula to determine order nor as an accurate synopsis. It also points to the fact that ragas are not scales

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Nov 2007, 03:07

vasanthakokilam wrote:My personal preference would be not to overload the Aro/Ava with prayoga specific sequences and leave them to the listing of characteristic phrases. But then most people have gotten used to looking up only the Aro/Ava for the definition of the raga which is hopelessly incomplete.

If we simplify the Aro/Ava to its bare essentials, then many ragas might have the same Aro/Ava. People will then start considering them Allied ragas when the raga personality itself can be so different. That I guess is the danger of simplfying the Aro/Ava to its bare essentials.

I guess we have to reformulate the Aro/Ava as a plain old Set and not as an Ordered Sequence for non-vakra ragas, borrowing a computer science/math metaphor. Stictly speaking from set-theoretic point of view, a vanilla Set does not allow duplicates and it does not imply an order to its members. If you want to take it to the extreme, atleast for non-vakra ragas, the Set just contains the swaras allowed in a raga and each swara having a property whether it is Aro only, Ava Only or both. Then we can apply Arun's State Transition Algorithm (ASTA) to verify if a particular sequence is derivable from that Set.

I am not sure this would for work complex ragas - which require order, and disallow certain combinations.

For example take nATAkurinji, you can do n-p-d-n-s. And can do g-m-p-g-r-s but will not allow m-p-d or d-p-m. In other words if you approach pa from uttaranga, you cannot cross over to pUrvanga and vice versa.

One theoretical possibility is:
1. List swaras in aro, avaro. This indicates swaras from which you can descend/ascend - but subject to additional rules
2. List specific transitions that are disallowed.
3. List characteristic phrases.
4. A predefined short swara passage that captures the essence of raga and includes most important characteristic phrases. This then substitutes for singing aro/avaro.

For scalar ragas, #2 would be absent. Also #3 may be absent.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Nov 2007, 06:14

That will kill the edifice of the melakartha approach

CML, that will not be the implication. The sampUrna melakartha scheme would just be represented by 72 unique sets. Each set will consist of 7 swaras. Each swara will be mared as BOTH. With asampoorna case, some swaras will be marked as BOTH, Some as ARO-ONLY and some as AVA-ONLY.

But the problem Arun pointed out exists. So even considering only non-vakra cases, we still have to specify the disallowed sequences or be quite exhaustive in allowed sequences with the implication that those that are not specified would not normally be part of the raga characteristics ( even though one can justify them with the ASTA ).

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 10 Nov 2007, 03:40

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Nov 2007, 11:22

Congratulations Suji. Very nice. I now see what you were talking about constructing a varnam. I will have to lisen a few times to get at all the aspects you have put in. In the last charanam, the prayoga N~ , S G|S , G P|G , P G|P, Râ€™ Sâ€™ stood out even in first listen.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 10 Nov 2007, 11:45

Thanks VK,
I'm really thrilled how it turned out.
The 4 th charana was difficult. I was running out of ideas and thought I would have only three. But I did not give up. It just came to me while I was commuting on bus. I couldn't wait to come home and try that. The GRNS GRNS SP GRNS GRN~S effect turned out to be like the ending parts of Mozart's overtures.

The mukthayi was also the last I complete. I had the first 2 lines done and did not know what to do next.

If there are any suggestions I'll incorporate.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Nov 2007, 22:56

Suji,
Just heard your Deepavali release (as with films!) of vasanthakOkila dhvani which transcends seasons. You really bring out the bhAvA of the rAgA. VK's creation has that appealing quality which you have brought about very well in the varNam mode.
VK,
The more we hear it, the more it sounds like a full fledged rAgA. It does not seem as if it is suitable just for movie music. There is a certain seriousness about it as well...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Nov 2007, 23:32

There is a certain seriousness about it as well...

Isn't it? Yes. And the credit goes to Suji for casting her deepavali release in the classical and hence serious idiom.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Nov 2007, 23:58

Thank you Suji! That is a dIpAvali sweet that will not upset my health

It has come out nice and does give a new flavor to the rga distinct from others. I saw some hitches in your playing more due to the fact that you also have to learn it yourself to play!

The melody and the gamakams are clean and haunting. Congratulations.
Now I should hear it a few more times to internalize the raga!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Nov 2007, 00:00

Now I await the Telugu sahityam (with meaning!) to go with it.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Nov 2007, 00:59

Thank you Arasi, CML. VK,

I thought I should explain a bit in constructing this varnam.

Pallavi: It starts with descending a phrase and stays in madya to mandra stayi throughout. I made sure I do not climb too quickly, so kept descending after few climbs until the last phrase PR'S'

Anupallavi: I started building phrases in ascending order staying in madya and reaching tara stayi towards the end.

Mukhyai: Started off slow . If you notice the same phrase G, RN` S G R, at the beginning in madya stayi sounds so different when I used in the third line again but in tara stayi.

Caranam: I introduced a unique ending G'R'N -staying at N - because when you repeat it will get back to S.

All cittaswaras end in R' (exceptone) so they get back to S' in caranam

The first cittaswara is nothing but avarOhana and arohana
The second starts with G
The third with P and
last one with S'.

CML,
The sahitya has to come to me. I cannot just put random words. Though ninnu kori, calamelara, nannu palimpa will all fit.

I am having a unique idea for this varnam. Lets see how that will work out. But someone has to volunteer to sing it.
This will take more time-I probably will get it done in my long trip to India.

So that's it for now

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Nov 2007, 01:38

But someone has to volunteer to sing it.

This will be a great opportunity for us to hear Arun sing.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Nov 2007, 02:07

I will count in Ramakriya too!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Nov 2007, 03:14

vasanthakokilam wrote:
But someone has to volunteer to sing it.
This will be a great opportunity for us to hear Arun sing.

Singing "known" and familiar ragas itself is a challenge for me - you are asking for too much

!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Nov 2007, 04:09

VK,
If we do meet in one of the few concerts Suji is planning to attend while she is in Chennai, we will hum it in the canteen while waiting for our coffee. I bet someone at the table would ask, 'idenna rAgam pADaREL?'

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Nov 2007, 06:06

Arasi

That canteen during the season is a hotbed for viral marketing, as it is known these days.

Suji, keep the Varnam notations handy

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Nov 2007, 08:54

Ah!, this raga and varnam will make to MA canteen at least if not anywhere

that will be the test of time...

gana1961 · Post by **gana1961** » 14 Nov 2007, 16:50

ellorukum vanakam. I am ganesh new to this site. I m interested in music very much
i want to interact about this

gana1961 · Post by **gana1961** » 14 Nov 2007, 16:51

Can i learn music through this site

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Nov 2007, 22:31

Arasi!
Won't it be nice to hear the vasanthakOkiladhvani of Suji while you munch the ba(j)ji

P.S along with the 'vikkal dhvani

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 14 Nov 2007, 23:27

cmlover wrote:Arasi!
Won't it be nice to hear the vasanthakOkiladhvani of Suji while you munch the ba(j)ji
P.S along with the 'vikkal dhvani

Raji with bajji-suji with sojji- Nice combo!
I look forward meeting you Arasi!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Nov 2007, 23:52

ji!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Nov 2007, 08:43

jee', suji, and I wonder what gana1961 is learning from all this!
Yes! Hope we can meet...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Nov 2007, 10:10

arasi wrote:jee', suji, and I wonder what gana1961 is learning from all this!
Yes! Hope we can meet...

I thought you were refereing to some 1961 hindi song..took me a while to get that part until I browsed the previous page

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Nov 2007, 10:21

gana1961 wrote:Can i learn music through this site

On this forum you can learn about music. . ..

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Nov 2007, 02:57

Did you also get it that this ..jee is not that keen on the appendage ji to her name? Sujiji? I don't think you like it either!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Nov 2007, 03:32

arasi wrote:Did you also get it that this ..jee is not that keen on the appendage ji to her name? Sujiji? I don't think you like it either!

Ya, by default we have that ji..

Now why is this thread so quiet apart from our rambling...
It was in full swing for weeks....nobody around?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Nov 2007, 04:00

Suji: I am a bit busy. Once in a while I am working on playing your varnam.

BTW, remember that one kedaram exercise we did ( sample12 ). In the end, I mixed together my playing and Suji's nice violin repro. Yesterday, on my iPhone, I found a loophole through which I can add my own ringtones instead of the purchased ones it officially allows. Now, that 14 seconds of Kedaram is my standard ring tone on my iPhone.

A couple of people who heard that wanted it and I have given it to them as well. One of them said he liked it very much.

With respect to swara identification, I am working on my own baby step exercises before getting on decoding serious phrases from songs. But you all go ahead with further exercises as before. I will audit it and if I feel confident I will jump in as well.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Nov 2007, 11:10

suji
Out of deference for your studies I have been keeping quiet. Also you guys are getting ready to fly to the motherland and very little time left to finish those shopping.s Let us go on an easy pace. I guess our guru is equally busy!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Nov 2007, 11:20

cmlover wrote:suji
Out of deference for your studies I have been keeping quiet. Also you guys are getting ready to fly to the motherland and very little time left to finish those shopping.s Let us go on an easy pace. I guess our guru is equally busy!

Thanks CML,
yes, I have the finals for the first trimester approaching......and shopping too...
a little music does keep me going...

VK,

iphone ...cool
would like to hear your attempt at varnam. Note that I did not keep talam at charanam. And each cittaswara should be repeated to finish the talam.. I have gotten better at the varnam. Will update if I find time.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Nov 2007, 20:57

I have been busy too. I am also preparing for 2 vacations. A short one to a tropical paradise of one kind. And another longer one to a tropical paradise of the Indian kind

I also got back on the notation editor. Very close (i know - i have been saying that for ages now

). If all goes well, I may make it available as a beta release within the next 10 days.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 17 Nov 2007, 00:47

arunk wrote:I also got back on the notation editor. Very close (i know - i have been saying that for ages now ). If all goes well, I may make it available as a beta release within the next 10 days.

Arun

That would be nice for the "Thanksgiving"

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Nov 2007, 02:33

Great ! Have a good relaxing vacation!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Nov 2007, 03:58

So who would be interested in beta testing this? Please email me.

All this means is

1. You will at least try to use it often
2. You will be willing to up with rough edges

. You will also be willing to put up with some delays in me the rough edges smoothed out (i.e depening on how much time i am able spend)
3. You will help me identify bugs etc. and also offer feedback, suggestions etc.
(Note that should be able to use the application even otherwise - although I dont know if at this point it should be open season for everyone - or just have a few people who are willing to put up with the pain and thus keep it somewhat under control)

First anyone has any suggestions of how to do this"beta testing" in an organized way? Ideally one needs to track bugs, suggestions etc. but I am not sure I am going to have the energy for that - atleast in the next few days. Everything is spent on just wrapping things so that it will (hopefully) be usable.

I would appreciate any feedback - please email me.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Nov 2007, 04:02

my hand is up...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 17 Nov 2007, 04:12

me too...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Nov 2007, 04:45

Count me in! You have my email!

twister · Post by **twister** » 04 Jul 2008, 15:54

Dear kind kind people,

Would you please satisfy my persistence in looking for keys to the Carnatic Music.

I am trying to find an mp3 example of Mayamalavagowla basic sargam intonation and appreciate you deeply for help.

Thanks!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Jul 2008, 20:51

twister: What you want is here: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2515

twister · Post by **twister** » 08 Jul 2008, 15:25

Thank you a LOT, vasanthakokilam! =)

Regards,
Twister.

navasakthi · Post by **navasakthi** » 05 Oct 2008, 08:15

I heard this swara exercise of mohanam.it will certainly help us to get good swara gnana.
navasakthi.(swati venkatraman)

navasakthi · Post by **navasakthi** » 05 Oct 2008, 08:20

my father GBL is very active and keeps interacting everyday with forumitesI m going thro' the old posts and enjoying it very slowly.navasakthi.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Oct 2008, 00:07

FYI: The topic of discussion in post #552 and few posts before and after that is the subject of my latest blog entry: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/ ... avarohana/

Any mistakes are unintentional (and I would love to be able to correct them - so pl. let me know)

Thanks
Arun