A new Notation System for Carnatic Music:

[Pratyaksham Bala]

A new Notation System for Carnatic Music:

Gamaka Box Notation System invented by Shri Ramesh Vinayakam. For the story and developments, check:
https://yourstory.com/2024/09/ramesh-vi ... dian-music

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks PB. Will take a look

[sam]

Gamakas - Madras Heritage and Carnatic Music
https://sriramv.com/2011/12/27/gamakas/
Quote
But it is the early 20th century Sangita Sampradaya Pradarsini which is the most exhaustive. Here the gamaka becomes a thread that binds all factors together – raga, svara, phrases and the manifestation of a raga is only through the gamaka. The author Subbarama Dikshitar states that nobody would sing without gamaka. He also states that several ragas may have the same arrangement of notes and it is only through the gamaka that their individuality is established. Each raga is described in this work in terms of the gamakas in it. Several types of gamakas as illustrated in the SSP
.
Quote ends.

It is a specialist area . As an ordinary listener, i have a doubt.
Are there any two ragas which have exactly same notes in ascending and descenting order without any vakra sancharams?...with same basic pitch?

I do not understand.
Is it not a different raagam then due to gruhabedam?
Requesting clarification and examples of kruthis.

[TheListener]

Before we get to answering the question, it helps clarify a few things about the concept of a rAgam itself.

It is helpful to think of a rAgA as a melodic entity - a body of sound with its own characteristics.
For e.g., if we were to take the example of a mango tree, it has a certain type of trunk, branches, leaves, fruits etc. It is through these characteristics that we identify the mango tree.

Similarly, a specific rAgam has characteristics in terms of:
• How the melodies in that rAgam sound.
• What kind of notes and phrases there are in the rAgam
• How do those notes and phrases move to create the melodic sound of the rAgam
• Which notes you linger on; which phrases or notes are important, which are less important etc
and so on.

A mango tree can be described, but not defined.
Similarly, it is possible to describe a rAgam, but not define it precisely.
It is highly incorrect and dangerous to define a rAgam with just Arohanam and Avarohanam.

There is nothing wrong in saying that this is this rAgam has this arOhanam and avarOhanam - that this is how it typically goes up and comes down. But the rAgam itself it not just its ArOhanam and avarOhanam.

Let's take another analogy.
If I were to ask you to draw a mango, you'd draw a typical shape. However, not all mangoes would be of that shape. In fact, many wouldn't. Some varieties like Romania mangoes even look like apples.

Similarly, ArOhanam and avarOhanam describe just one common way. They are not the only way. That is especially true in traditional rAgams like Anandabhairavi, Sahana, Reethigowlai, Atana etc.

The typical mango shape is just a general characteristic. It doesn't define the mango. The mango shape is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for something to be a mango.

The ArOhanam avarOhanam are just one general characteristic. They don't define the rAgam.
The arOhanam and avarOhanam is neither a necessary not a sufficient condition for something to be a certain rAgam.

What makes a fruit a mango goes far beyond the typical shape that we give it. If one wants to really experience a mango, one has to cut, taste it; eat it in different forms; try different types of mangoes. For all this, it doesn't matter what exactly the shape of that mango was.

Similarly what makes a rAgam is far beyond what its supposed Arohanam and avarohanam imply. The rAgam's identity is in the sound of the rAgam; in how its melody moves to create that sound; in the melodic form it evokes in your mind. You have to be part of the beautiful journey that the rAgam takes you on to fully experience it.

With all that, if you are still with this, to answer your original question:
Yeah, there can be rAgams with same arOhanam avarOhanam but are different. Kedaragowlai and Surutti or Sama and Natanarayani can be an examples. But someone will come and say those have slightly different Arohanam-AvarOhanam because a different phrase is emphasized in each. Bingo! That's the idea. The Arohanam-avarOhanam come out of what is there in the rAgam. Not the other way around. We need to stop visualizing the rAgam in terms of its arOhanam and avarOhanam. Every time we collectively do that, a part of the rAgam dies.

[sam]

As a lay person, who gets to raagam through songs only, as you point out, a raagam has its own identity.

My doubt was about gamakam only.
..i looked up in raaga surabi site.
https://www.ragasurabhi.com/carnatic-mu ... owlai.html

Kedaragowla
Arohanam: S R2 M1 P N2 S
Avarohanam: S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

Surutti
Arohanam:
S R2 M1 P N2 D2 N2 S
Avarohanam: S N2 D2 P M1 G3 P M1 R2 S
.
As can be seen, , they differ in notes.
....
Similiarly,
Saama and .nata narayani
I got the following information from
Guruguha.org

For Sama, gandhara is totally absent in the ascent/arohana while in Natanarayani the gandhara is vakrita in the arohana and we see SRGR profusely in Natanarayani. This is a key differentiator.

.https://guruguha.org/natanarayani-melod ... rest-time/
.
So, the difference is in sanchaaram.
Not due to gamakam, imho.
.
Thank you Sir, for sparing the time.

[TheListener]

http://www.carnatic.com/carnatic/ragalist.htm
If you see this site, both Kedaragowlai and Surutti have the same Arohanam but avarOhanam will be different.
Sama also has a common SRG prayogam.
If you look at five different sources, it is possible that they all have different Arohanam and avarohanam for any of the traditional rAgams.

To give a different analogy, Arohanam avarOhanam is like say the leaf's length to width ratio for a tree. Say someone measured it for mango leaves declared the average to be 2.378481. One asks if there are other trees in the world that have the same leaf to width ratio. Someone else points out some other tree leaf that was found to be 2.3785. One can argue that 2.3785 and 2.378381 are not the same and hence these trees are different. My point is these trees are different for completely different reasons and that is not how one should understand trees or leaves.

[sam]

As a hobbyist learner, gamakam is about very minute and subtle deviation of the frequency assigned to a swara sthaanam. Difficult to notate.
.
The special contributiin of Subbaraama cikshitar through his SSP,,is that he has attempted to give gamakam notation.
.
That was in 1904 itself.

There have been recent attempts by famous vocalusts of present times, to
very strictly interpret and render a kruthi exactly as notated in SSP , gamakam et al.
( totally, uninfluenced by the oral tradition).and patantharam..

.some snippets from wiki.

Gamaka is any graceful turn, curve or cornering touch given to a single note or a group of notes, which adds emphasis to each raga's individuality.

Gamaka can be understood as any movement done on a note or in between two notes.

Each raga has specific rules on the types of gamakas that might be applied to specific notes, and the types that may not.

Notation for gamakas is generally not found in the Indian music system.

There can be considerable difficulty in conveying the complex and fluid melodic movement of gamakas in a notation system that uses fixed pitch signs

In Carnatic music in particular, the notation of gamakas is often unnecessary, as performers use notation as a memory aid for compositions they already learned by hearing and imitating

However, there are some old scripts and books like the Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini, which have specific signs to indicate the gamakas that have to be used for each note

.

Usage of such symbols makes it easier to understand the notation and to sing the composition..

Musician Ramesh Vinayakam has invented a system named "Gamaka box" notation to notate the Gamakas so that any one can sing them by seeing the notation.
.
"Vinanasakoni -
Pratapavarali -
- Tyagarajar -
T Brinda"

https://youtu.be/sNbR03Z7AE0?si=N3dt_SqJSVp60CaY

.....
DK Jayaraman -
mahA gaNapatE pAlayashu - naTanArAyaNi -
dIkshitar"

https://youtu.be/ZaH828zXAtk?si=EYC9Vs2BJjbw82c4


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