Nearly extinct: Applause

[Sachi_R]

Imagine a dog with his vocal chords muted or mouth muzzled. That is a rasika who wants to applaud and be heard by the artiste but cannot be.

Imagine a concert attended by ghosts who are unheard and invisible, whether they rustle magazines or march out to the canteen.

Imagine an organizer who books a black box of a studio for recording musicians in a concert attended by spirits and techs with no applauding audience.

Imagine a great, great, alapana, tana, violin response, mridangam gumki, rounds of swaras with sparkle and speed, all going down like a soundless drowning man in a remote lake in a wild forest.

That is the state of our concerts.

What is worse than no applause? Canned applause creatively applied after each piece as we see in some podcasts Otherwise the biggest casualty in Covid times has to be applause.
It is the Prana of a musician and a rasika.

When will we have full-blooded concerts with real, awake, audiences ready to applaud our great music?

Applause is a shared thrill of rasa that is the juice that flows through music.

Prana. Juice. Applause.

How to bring it back?

[Nick H]

Nicely put, but...

When will we have full-blooded concerts with real, awake, audiences ready to applaud our great music?

Right now!

Live concerts are absolutely back here in Chennai. Not yet in your city?

You can be sure that the Ragasudha Hall concert videos on Parivadini's youtube channel, as of the beginning of this month, have real live audiences

[Sachi_R]

That's great news, Nick! In the nick for sure!

Somehow I dare not go into a crowded hall yet...

[Nick H]

I know what you mean. I've only been to a very few, uncrowded concerts this month.

[shankarank]

What is worse than no applause? Canned applause creatively applied after each piece as we see in some podcasts

Well that is suggestive how the real applauses have become. Well seriously, applause is nowadays an encouragement to the artiste rather than any genuine feedback. The musicians seldom do anything outside of what a given audience will appreciate. They know what gets across.

The canned applause may remove some ennui for listeners , removing the awkward silence post the piece.

[hnbhagavan]

Dear Sachi,
Live concerts are back.But what about audience?
Fort High School Ramaseva Mandali
Vani Kala Kendra
Seshadripuram
Whether people will encourage our Music?

[Sachi_R]

HNB,
Well, I am not jumping into live concerts yet... Shows I am growing old!

[hnbhagavan]

Programs Vani Kala kendra
live webcast Apr 2- May 2 at 6:30 PM
www.srivani.edu.in

[cienu]

Imagine a dog with his vocal chords muted or mouth muzzled. That is a rasika who wants to applaud and be heard by the artiste but cannot be.

Imagine a concert attended by ghosts who are unheard and invisible, whether they rustle magazines or march out to the canteen.

Imagine an organizer who books a black box of a studio for recording musicians in a concert attended by spirits and techs with no applauding audience.

Imagine a great, great, alapana, tana, violin response, mridangam gumki, rounds of swaras with sparkle and speed, all going down like a soundless drowning man in a remote lake in a wild forest.

That is the state of our concerts.

What is worse than no applause? Canned applause creatively applied after each piece as we see in some podcasts Otherwise the biggest casualty in Covid times has to be applause.
It is the Prana of a musician and a rasika.

When will we have full-blooded concerts with real, awake, audiences ready to applaud our great music?

Applause is a shared thrill of rasa that is the juice that flows through music.

Prana. Juice. Applause.

How to bring it back?

It was a wedding concert in the year 1940. My mother (then a wisp of a girl aged 6 years) was sitting along with her mother on the stage. As was the practice in those days, Amma used to join her mother in singing for all the songs after the Taniavartanam was over. (usually called the tukkada segment).

“Shyama Sundara Madana Mohana” was one of the songs that eminent Hindustani Vocalist, Pandit Narayan Rao Vyas had taught my Grandmother Smt MSS. This song was a great hit in the movie Seva Sadan. After the rendition of this musical piece, my mother noticed that the marriage guests (engaged in banter) had failed to applaud. Stunned as she was (since this musical piece has always won instant applause) she spoke into the mike and questioned the audience in Tamil " Why is there no applause" ?. The surprised audience now awakened by this pleasant bombshell broke into laughter and immediately gave a huge applause much to the satisfaction of the lil girl !

[Sachi_R]

What a story! Someone like Smt. Radha would be an extremely special person. I can't think of a parallel in our epics to compare with for MSS+RV!

Cienu, you being yourself a maharasika as well as someone right on the centrestage of performing arts, understanding my point, is very fulfilling!

[arasi]

Applaud, applaud, the little girl signalled
A very popular song going unnoticed?
Even children know this, where were you?
Adoration time adults, pay attention please

[Nick H]

Counterpoint!

I could live without applause. It breaks up the atmosphere and interrupts the progression of the music. I've heard a number of Hindustani artists ask the audience not to applaud during a piece, but to save it to the end, or even preferably to the end of the concert.

I've heard Smt Vedavalli, in one concert, to applaud only at the end, if they enjoyed the concert.

But it is a hard, perhaps impossible, habit to change. We are all used to applauding, and we all feel that the artists want us to --- and they do, because they are used to it too.

[Nick H]

My favourite applause story!

It comes from a Most Memorable Concert series in a newspaper, and was told by a member of the main performers of that evening.

The "opening," less well-known band, finished their section of the concert. They were a native Australian band, and they sang a song about the terrible colonial abuse that broke up families. They finished the song to a deafening silence from the audience. It went on for minutes, as the dejected band members packed up ready to leave the stage, thinking that they had totally bombed... and then, hands took over from the stunned hearts and minds... and the thunder broke out.

And the main-band guy said that, nothing to do with what his band played that evening: this was his most memorable concert.

(I did listen to the song on youtube, and yes, it probably is one of the most powerful I ever heard and I cannot think of it without tears. History books don't often achieve that, but, of course, poetry and music can)

[Sachi_R]

Oho. Hmmm. I lived in Oz for some years. Routinely heard of Aborigine distress and the "canned apology" of the whites.

[RSR]

This is tangential. ..refers to incident narrated by cienu...Times have changed due to technology and the web. Arranging for concerts in wedding receptions of 'rich and influential' was a disgusting practice in
the years from 1930 to 1960. It was just a show of status and pomp by the affluent. In such concerts, nobody really cared to listen to the concert. More interested in 'chatting'. It was degrading to the magnificent artistes of that golden era. (Parvathi concerts were different...they were a sort of chamber music. ). Generally, the audience in such chamber music sessions, never applaud. They immerse themselves in the music and often are seen totally overwhelmed , and in tears of bliss . To sing to an audience, which does not care , is the most depressing experience for any artiste.
--Streamed webcast - spares the artiste from such insult. I believe that 'marriage concerts' have become extinct now. Sabha concerts will do likewise within a decade. ..pandemic or not. With recorded music and streaming, artistes can become independent of so-called patronage. If the urge to applaud is irrepressible, while listening to a casette..all by yourself, .nobody minds...
---
p-14
How about GKB Nandanaar songs?

[Nick H]

... I believe that 'marriage concerts' have become extinct now.

Not at all! I have been to several. I think, all my music-oriented friends have had classical concerts at their (or their family) weddings.

At one very big do that I attended over a decade ago, Shashank was playing. Someone called me over that part of the hall, where the music listeners were gathered. I was a newbie then: they explained that, at such events, they try to get some people who will actually listen, close to the artists.

I have been to two concerts at RV-school weddings where Vedavalli herself sang. At one, despite the bride's attempt to keep people quiet, she did not really manage to beat the general ambience. Of course, I was still glad to be there. At the other, the arrangements were more successful and we were better able to enjoy the lovely concert. The groom's mother joined in on the stage for the final songs.

Thank god for such weddings, free of the mind-destroying eardrum-shattering noise that seems inevitable at most of the not-music-folk weddings I've been to.

[arasi]

A different story, a personal one, if you don't mind...
We lucked out perhaps at our son's wedding reception in India. We couldn't imagine a wedding without music, apart from the Unjal songs and a session of family music later in the evening, at least in India. A concert was a MUST after the wedding and a lunch reception in two countries across the Atlantic. Considering that not all guests would pay quiet attention to vocal music, we settled for instrumental music. We also chose a proper hall in Bengaluru with good sound (too big for a small gathering, but it was worth it). Several dense rows of listeners when the pair sat with the pe're (my husband) in the front row from the start to the end while I was hovering around the entrance welcoming guests. The greetings were all done away from the audience to distract them. Those who were really indifferent to music just sat in the back rows and only whispered, sensing that a serious concert was in progress. We wished for a musical evening, and how it turned out to be one!

The Mysore Bros gave a great concert, and Dr. Manjunath said something like: if only we could have a wedding concert like this, we would go on playing until your anniversary, addressing the couple!
We also sent the invitations calling it A Musical Evening to celebrate the couple. That and the tiered hall which from the start held densely packed rows at the center alone, signalled off to those who were indifferent to music. Add to it my phone calls when I hinted heavily about the the intent of the occasion and specified the time to arrive if they wanted to listen to the whole concert. We didn't expect much, considering it was after all a kalyANa cachEri.

I suppose, after attending several wedding receptions over the decades during our visits to India, we gained some experience in planning one which would rule out the pain part of such an event. I have to admit, the old time concerts at weddings were mostly a banter-oriented mishap as RSR suggests, but the ones in recent times were even more shocking. In a couple of them, the best of them were playing, ignored by the attendees, some making groups of chat sessions right in front of the artistes! At least, they have a generous purse to carry home, but what a pity!

Even worse was a smaller reception where two young women sang--just starting off on stage, it seemed, but they had to compete with the guests in their vocal prowess. What was worse, the diners started returning from the adjacent halI, continued their socializing just in front of the stage, obscuring the view of it. I got upset, noticed a few others listening to them. Asked them all to drag the chairs to the front, our forming a pitiable audience to support the performers' parents listening in front. I got stared at, of course, but at least the girls added some strangers to their listeners ' list...

[Nick H]

We lucked out perhaps at our son's wedding reception in India ...

Super, arasi: well done!

[arasi]

Nick,
I didn't know you then, it was before the beginning of Rasikas.org. Otherwise, you might have even come!

[Nick H]

Thank you arasi

[RSR]

That was a very nice post by @arasi ' madam. So very considerate to the artiste.
. Down the memory lane... even as 'recent' as 1940, all the girls and womenfolk in brahmin households , used to have very good knowledge of Thhyagaraja kruthis, though they did not know Telugu. In fact, in the 'peNN pArthal' (a kind of 'interview' by the would-be groom''s mother and other womenfolk from their side...this is for @Nick H who may not be conversant with the Thamizh word ), along with the customary 'sojji and bajji', the girl would be asked to sing some 'keerthanai' , So along with 'dowry' , it was a deciding qualification! ..
.We had a five-day marriage of my cousin-sister , paternal aunt's daughter, who had received training from KaLakkadu Iyer brothers, That was around 1948. She herself had a wonderful voice and what is more, her younger brother also had picked up just by listening to the training sessions. The marriage took place in a rural town in South ThmizhNadu samasthanam. On all the five days, besides the customary functions, every lady who was present , sang a few songs and believe me, they sang very well. and were listened to with rapt attention by everyone including the children..ofcourse, under the stern eye of elders... The bride and her brother , (I remember as a six year-old boy,) sang 'marakatha-valleem' and 'akshaya linga vibho' !. ..MD kruthis! And not a single one, was a stage artiste. That is how the CM tradition was preserved and transmitted. over generations though in those years, attending concerts -even temple concerts- by grown-up girls was not permitted!
It was a grand function, with feast for the palate and ears too There was no concert by any acclaimed Vidwan in that function.
My grandfather, a successful lawyer there, and a Srungeri Mutt follower, used to organize, 'Sankara Jayanthi' every year in the agraharam and in one such, around 1940, my elders used to say that MMI gave a concert. Those were the days!
(There was a delightful piece of writing by Sriram.V on one such 'bride-seeing interview ..in the context of Kanchi vs Srungeri mutt controversies. A 'Must' read for its brilliant style and humour.)..reminding of Aunt Agatha.
Twenty years later in Chennai, KaLakkaadu Iyer gave a 'kalyaaNa kutchery' in the reception of another cousin-sister of mine and I felt , all the bustle while he was singing, was an affront to the Art itself.
The concert could have been arranged as a separate event . befitting our respect for the Art and the artiste.
I had hoped that these 'kalyaaNa kutcheries ' had become thing of the past.
If not, they should.

[shankarank]

I have heard that, Kalakadu vidvans , brothers were afflicted by Raja dRShTi ( some kind of inauspicious eye of the Raja!) and hence lost their voice. So that is a bad kind of applause!

[RSR]

'raja paarvai' sometimes refers to 'stiff-neck'. Many musicians of the Golden era, like MVI, SSI, MMI and even Chembai Swami, had temporarily lost their voice but regained by divine grace. ...even Smt.MS ,right on the eve of her UN concert, as narrated by herself.

[RSR]

ref-p-21
(

There was a delightful piece of writing by Sriram.V on one such 'bride-seeing interview ..in the context of Kanchi vs Srungeri mutt controversies. A 'Must' read for its brilliant style and humour......reminding of Aunt Agatha.)

---
The blog was located last night. 'Jayendra' was of Kanchi mutt.
Here is the excerpt. No offence meant to anybody, please.
https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2018/03/0 ... tham-wars/

--
sriramv writes:

We came from a strongly Sringeri tradition. My paternal grandfather, V Ramaiya, was an amazingly talented civil engineer who rose to very senior levels in the South Indian Railway Company and later became a Sanskrit scholar. His talent in that area was liked by both HH Abhinava Vidyateertha of Sringeri and HH Chandrashekharendra Saraswathi of Kanchi but for all practical purposes he was a Sringeri man.

He never made his inclination public and if you had to see fanatics then you needed to meet my imperious grandmother and my equally imperious aunt. They were both devoted to (aunt was in particular obsessed with) the Sringeri Sarada Peetham (in our house we could never refer to it as the Mutt/Matham) and therefore took no cognisance of the Kanchi Mutt (in our house you never referred to it as the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham).

By some quirk of fate, my dad and the majority of his siblings married into Kanchi following families and that gave rise to many peculiar situations. Take for instance the obligatory green-and-yellow-on-the-inside-and-pink-and-blue-outside invitation cards. Which Jagadguru were you to hold responsible for the forthcoming wedding/sacred thread ceremony/seemantham, etc? Many acrimonious debates would take place. One cousin thought he had solved it all by simply stating that the event was with the blessings of the Sankaracharya. But this pleased nobody, because each camp thought he was favouring the other. This battle was such a recurring feature that even today when I get those traditional invites I always look to see who is the Sankaracharya getting all the credit. Not that it matters, but my mind got conditioned that way.

A related matter was the ushering in of the blessings of the Peetham (whichever it was) at the culmination of a happy event. The mutt representative would come in carrying a tray laden with prasadam and this had to be greeted with everyone standing up, while a long and sonorous recitation of the pontiff’s honours and titles (a lovely set of lines in Sanskrit) would be recited. An eagle eye would be kept on the audience to ensure everyone stood up. In case someone did not you knew where his or her allegiance lay. Grandmother would burn holes into them via her thick glasses.

Grandmother was very keen that a cousin married a girl she had identified for him. In earlier years this would have been a bagatelle-a pronouncement by grandmother to this effect meant it was all over. But the 1970s were a rebellious time, as grandmother would say – too much of communist influence. So she organised for the traditional girl viewing ceremony. We all went. Grandmother was graciousness personified. The obligatory sojji and bajji was gone through and then the girl, having fallen at everyone’s feet, was asked to sing (we were a very musical family). I can still recall that air of expectancy. The girl sat down, pulled out a Sruti box, cleared her throat and began:

Sreeeeeeeee Jayendra Saraswatheeeeeeee eeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeee

Thus went the refrain, or given what happened thereafter, the burden. None of us heard the rest of the song for we were all looking at grandmother. She had become a sculpture of ice. My mother, a great giggler, was stuffing her pallu into her mouth. The song wound to a close and my grandmother came back to life like Galatea. She rose, and we followed. The journey home was made in silence except for mom who had hiccups. She had to be calmed with water etc later.
The only one who was pleased was cousin. “I never liked the girl,”he said.

@arasi ,@Sachi_R

[Sachi_R]

Hmmm. Good writing. Thanks

[arasi]

A gem...

[thenpaanan]

What is worse than no applause? Canned applause creatively applied after each piece as we see in some podcasts

Well that is suggestive how the real applauses have become. Well seriously, applause is nowadays an encouragement to the artiste rather than any genuine feedback. The musicians seldom do anything outside of what a given audience will appreciate. They know what gets across.

The canned applause may remove some ennui for listeners , removing the awkward silence post the piece.

On a tangent, I wonder what it was like before Indians adopted the Western practice of clapping as a gesture of appreciation. They would have used the "balE" exclamatory instead but that does not create the same volume. I guess the background noise would have been lower as well. But can a balE or shAbAsh be added electronically as well?

-T

[thenpaanan]

This is tangential. ..refers to incident narrated by cienu...Times have changed due to technology and the web. Arranging for concerts in wedding receptions of 'rich and influential' was a disgusting practice in
the years from 1930 to 1960. It was just a show of status and pomp by the affluent. In such concerts, nobody really cared to listen to the concert. More interested in 'chatting'. It was degrading to the magnificent artistes of that golden era. (Parvathi concerts were different...they were a sort of chamber music. ).

I read somewhere that this was somewhat a two-way street -- marriage concerts were a major source of income for musicians at all levels. I think KVN said that the great ARI would try/test out new pieces at marriage concerts before presenting them at a regular concert. I guess one advantage for both performer and audience was that more risks were taken.

-T

[shankarank]

On a tangent, I wonder what it was like before Indians adopted the Western practice of clapping as a gesture of appreciation. They would have used the "balE" exclamatory instead but that does not create the same volume. I guess the background noise would have been lower as well. But can a balE or shAbAsh be added electronically as well?

-T

That reminds me of an epsiode in my early child hood. Whether I remember a kriti or rAga from that concert or not, this one is etched in my memory

That was Sikkil Sisters concert, at Madurai T.V.S Nagar temple. The father of Kanjira Vidvan K.V. Gopalakrishnan, I think his name is KVRSS Mani ( I have listened to him play Kanjira in many local concerts) and another patron who goes by the reference "Chettiar" - likely the only odd person may be, were saying Bale often.

The recorder from Master Recording company ( again IIRC) was offended and objected. And there ensued a verbal duel between them. The recorder was telling them to go sit away from stage if they want to continue doing this and they were asking him to go record from the back!

The artistes duo were watching helplessly!

Philosophically, what that shows is that, a "cinematic/curated" sense of sound has entered the culture, displacing the livelier sense of nAdam and it's appreciation, a knowledge system where one rasika learns rasikatvam from another.

It is all this false sense of entitlement - " I need my clear cut tracks! - in my bose speakers" - something I have seen being posted by a forum member who no longer is posting now-a-days!

[thenpaanan]

This is tangential. ..refers to incident narrated by cienu...Times have changed due to technology and the web. Arranging for concerts in wedding receptions of 'rich and influential' was a disgusting practice in
the years from 1930 to 1960. It was just a show of status and pomp by the affluent. In such concerts, nobody really cared to listen to the concert. More interested in 'chatting'. It was degrading to the magnificent artistes of that golden era. (Parvathi concerts were different...they were a sort of chamber music. ). Generally, the audience in such chamber music sessions, never applaud. They immerse themselves in the music and often are seen totally overwhelmed , and in tears of bliss . To sing to an audience, which does not care , is the most depressing experience for any artiste.
--Streamed webcast - spares the artiste from such insult. I believe that 'marriage concerts' have become extinct now.

If you think wedding concert musicians had it bad, spare a thought for the poor nAyanakAras at those weddings. Wedding concert or not, a nAdaswaram player was 100% necessary for those weddings. Except that the treatment meted out to him as a musician was borderline humiliating. When the nAdaswaram was not playing, the elders would be grumbling (or worse) "we have paid the nAdaswaram player to sit there and enjoy betel it seems" and the moment the musician starts playing something earnestly the priest would abruptly shout "stop the nAdaswaram" for whatever chant needed to be heard by the audience (presumably only some chants needed to be heard over the deafening ambient noise). But the worst of all was when the priest would shout suddenly "gettimELam gettimElam" when the nAdaswaram is supposed to play the familiar celebratory much like medieval trumpets in English castles. Not to ignore all the other uncles who'd gratuitously join in the chorus demanding "gettimELam", much like the people who give "dharma aDi" to a pickpocket caught on a railway platform. Poor nAdaswaram player would be expected to drop everything, play what was demanded instantaneously, and when the moment passed get back to "playing". Of course, lost in all this was the fact through the entire ceremony, no one, but no one, listened to the musician at all! He was just a noisemaker.

With the advent of recorded tapes and now phones, this part of weddings has deservedly been buried, never to be exhumed.

I have a personal story to relate in this matter. Growing up in a far-flung suburb of Mumbai Northeast, there was a single nAdaswaram player who served the needs of the small South Indian diaspora. So it was not surprising that I saw him and his two assistants at each and every wedding and thread ceremony and temple festival in the general area. In those days I was a beginning student of CM and was very curious to understand what he played and so I would hang back and listen, trying to figure out the rAgam and so on. Eventually he must have recognized me and he started to nod and smile when he saw me. Once I walked some five miles trailing him as he played in the local streets during a thiruvizha. But it took a while for me to begin to understand what he was playing since I was not a fast learner of CM. Finally, at some random wedding I gathered my guts and went up to him and asked him to play dhanyAsi. He looked surprised, and said he would play but he wanted me to sit there and not walk off. He said otherwise someone would come by and ask him to play something else. Over the next half I enjoyed a delectable (to me, that is) DhanyAsi -- he was interrupted several times but he picked it up again and again and continued as if the interruptions did not happen. Finally when he was done he looked at me and said "sareengaLA?" (was that alright?) I was stunned that he would ask me, a know-nothing, if it was alright. In hindsight he was probably an ok musician but at that time he was the greatest nAdaswara vidwAn to me, and that's how I like to remember him.

Many many years later at my cousin's thread ceremony (this time in Chennai) I went up to the nAdasaram player there and gave him a request (sahAna this time). He did not ask for it but I got myself a chair near him and listened to him. Several times, my relatives tried to pull me away for lunch and conversation, but I did not move. Finally one of my uncles realized that I was listening to the nAdasaram and he too joined me with another chair. The two of us had to eat lunch in the last "pandhi" that day but I never regretted it. I had had my token revenge against the world of philistines who ignored this treasure in their midst. Best of all was when I went up and said thank you and praised the nAdaswara vidwAn, he flashed me a great smile and a hearty "kumbidu" (salute), and in that moment I realized that this is what it's all about.

-T

[Sachi_R]

@thenpaanan
In ancient Indian literature, करताडनम्, अस्फालनम् both meaning clapping and
हर्षोद्गरम्, प्रणदम् exclamation of Aho Hoho etc. have been mentioned. They had uninhibited vocalizations and gesticulations of appreciation.

[thenpaanan]

@thenpaanan
In ancient Indian literature, करताडनम्, अस्फालनम् both meaning clapping and
हर्षोद्गरम्, प्रणदम् exclamation of Aho Hoho etc. have been mentioned. They had uninhibited vocalizations and gesticulations of appreciation.

Thanks, @Sachi_R . I have not come across this before. I am sure that spontaneous gestures of appreciation are basic to human nature. But applause as we know it today is a formalized version of that gesture, rather than a spontaneous act -- the audience as a whole claps at a certain volume and pace, at certain points, and for a certain length of time that have been collectively arrived at. I've noticed that some historical movies ("tyAgayya", "SankarA", etc) show the audience exclaiming "uttama," "SrEshTha", or some such word of praise after a performance or argument or poetry reading. I cannot tell if this is at all historically accurate.

It is curious to me that we have not much of a cultural memory of this -- how did the audience _actually_ show their appreciation after a virtuosic concert by, say, mahA vaidyanAtha iyer? Did they say balE balE in those days (where does this word come from)? What about earlier during the times of our beloved tyAgarAja? What about the famous contest between syAma SAstri and bobbili kESavayya?

-T

[Nick H]

I have a personal story to relate in this matter. ... ... ...

Super, @thenpaanan !

[shankarank]

Was there an audience? Were there public performances? Maharaja's court , who were the listeners? May be envious saha vidvans with all and sundry of king's darbar. Who cares? Musicians, including nayanakarars wanted livelihood , they sang/played wherever.

Affluent people had everything plenty and they abused it. Effects of which , we still suffer.

Whether any of that furthered the cause of sangeetham, is a question mark.

We can pretty much say, the experience of music for common people is after Ariyakudi. But what did come down is the general philosophy of music that is still traceable to ancient times - the concept of rAgA for example ( not the actual definition of a particular rAga).

But we make several shallow statements:

1. Violin is a western instrument
2. Kutcheri is a Urdu word
3. KumbakoNam degree coffee , the very coffee is an import
4. We adorn shirt/pant, and a cropped hair, not the tuft , and gaccam.

And I will add yours,

5. Clapping is a western thing!

So essentially nothing of us is related to anything of our own past.

Will take the last one - we sheepishly wore rayon/polyester because of ad-mania and styles in a tropical country. So the pant itself is not the issue, but the material is!

First time I saw anything different was with a doctor , an affluent mylaporean, with his clinic in Kutchery road. He will bore you with stories of awe of the western life-style including the scented sanitizer hand wash! But he wore some wrinkled cotton pants. Almost like the Rs 2 / meter - "control cloth" - a.k.a the rationed cloth of my grand father's times. Well, He is privileged , he could wear that!

But only when I went west did I see the real thing, the expensive khakis , sometimes $60. Now pure cotton t-shirts are a hard find - once again!

All corporate dress code is business casual now!

Can we ignore form for once and look at substance?

[RSR]

ref p-30, p-32
@thenpaanan
Absolutely great.
In those decades before 1950, even TNR had to give wedding concerts !
-
Naagaswaram artistes were generally attached to either a temple or to a mutt and their basic needs were taken care of , by the trustees.
And with a lot of temple festivals all through the year, they played to the Lord in the temple processions. Common people learned by listening. Even in the 1960 decade, the artistes in such temple events were not asked to play film tunes. nor did they play to the 'gallery'.

I have memories of 'mandakappadi' kutcheries , purely of carnatic classical music , raaga elaborations, tavil magics and any number of chaste Thyagaraja kruthis, from 6pm when the procession would start and upto even 2 am . There will be a halt in the four street corners and who says people do not care for classical music? ( I do not remember to have heard any MD or SS kritis ,then however. )
-
In the early decades, 1920-1950, there were plenty of temple-related events in almost all the districts of Thamizh country. There are literally a thousand shrines- both saivite and vaishnavite, big and small and even today, they have not stopped celebrating the festivals.
Great veterans of those decades were invited to give concerts in such functions. The artistes were suitably rewarded. from public funds.
I do not think, that the great musicians earned their living and fame through wedding-concerts alone. It was the other way around. The rich , invited already famous and well-known artiistes to add glamour to their family function. The artistes accepted the engagement almost reluctantly but they could not refuse, as the rich were also trustees and influential people.
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I agree with you that wedding concert and tution fees were the only income for many poor musicians in those decades. ,because, though every temple had a Nagaswaram team , there was no such temple-attached 'male' musician. It may be a good idea to arrange for such team for CM in every temple with free accommodation and regular income through the HRE ministry. (Hindu Religious Endowments).
maNgaLa vaadhyam is essential part of our culture and it is sad that it is going out. As 'Parivaadhini' says, 'CM must go back to the rural temples' to survive. and flourish.
Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan is known to have insisted that his music should be free to the common people. Most often, applause is 'patronizing'. MVSivan would have fumed at such .from listeners.
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Thanks for raising very pertinent questions.
It is not true that great artistes in any field , crave for public appreciation. though lack of response may hurt them to some extent.

[rajeshnat]

Thenpaaanan
Great points . Indeed it took roughly 2 decades to change my mind that marriages, upanayanams and all functions in every family should invite a performing artist. I used to wonder as there is no respect to artist till atleast 2012 or so ,i thought marriage concerts are a disrespect to art and artists. But now i have changed my mind , for many artists they earn the most in family functions and more importantly there are new generation rasikas to CM .

Back in. the start of the millenium when my younger cousin sister got married , by mistake there was once two sets of nadaswarams and thavils kept for the same marriage . The caterer arranged a nadaswaram and the marriage party arranged another where we invited Tirupambaram brothers. Both took two diagonal positions in the marriage hall and we decided not to disappoint either party and kept both. THat day kaadu kizhi kizhi kizhinjuduthu. I guess thavil is the problem ......that nadaswaram and definitely thavil does not need a microphone for sure .For sure Palakkad Mani Iyer is right in this context where we dont need microphonne.

For my elder cousin sister marriage , once TVS was arranged in 1986. I dont recollect listening fully but some thing went into my school going ears and i enjoyed .

One of the best marriage concerts i attended was after my marriage when i came and settled back in india , when my friend got married in new woodlands hotel in 2001 or 2002. That day i only knew the bridegroom , all i did was just sit for 2 hours or so when Mandolin Srinivas played for the whole new woodlands reception concert , I was seated full time with me and srinivas maintaining quite an eye contact.

Some marriages when you attend only knowing either groom or bride and not knowing any one else is a GOD SEND Special BOON to hear exclusive CM concerts. That day I asked mandolin srinivas to play amrithavarshini and the genius played it for me,.You know what after roughly half an hour happened ,it did have a brief rain for 15 mins in new woodlands garden hall.... I cannot forget the muse of Mandolin Srinivas that day , almost for many many songs he was not even seeing down the mandolin strings , turning back , visually distracting but aurally devagaanam.

Marriage concerts are very important to pull the first time first blood rasikas or making bit acclimatised rasikas to again focus on hearing live CM again - applause or not is purely optional.

[arasi]

Rajesh,
enta bhAgyamurA! (What bliss!)

Thenpaanan,
sanyAsiyum virumbum oru dhanyAsi
ennAsaiyuDan nIr adu kETTiruppIr!
tannAsaiyil isai tannilE vaLarthu--inRu
ten pANanAi tigazhginRIr--enavE
tEnAm isai anRu tAnE umadAyiTRE

(A dhanyAsi liked even by a sanyAsi
How with ardor you would have heard it!
Nurturing music in you on your own
Thus you are a musician today, yes--
Music owned you, became yours )

[thenpaanan]

Was there an audience? Were there public performances? Maharaja's court , who were the listeners? May be envious saha vidvans with all and sundry of king's darbar. Who cares? Musicians, including nayanakarars wanted livelihood , they sang/played wherever.

...

And I will add yours,

5. Clapping is a western thing!

So essentially nothing of us is related to anything of our own past.

It is not at all clear that the only audiences in those days were the affluent and/or the educated. Sure there would have been some of that but I do not believe that a "large" artistic tradition such as CM would have lasted without popular support. And we do have some sparse historical reports of mahA vaidyanAtha iyer performing pure classical fare in temples to large crowds, and slightly farther afield, gOpAlakRshNa bhArati performing his kathA kAlakshepam to block bluster attendance (with the famous story of the British collector wanting to find out why GKB was so popular).

Coming to the question of clapping, I don't think it is a shallow question at all. Audience feedback has been an important if not essential part of our musical tradition. Both systems of ICM have had audience feedback and all the other sources for ICM do as well. HM has the concept of "daad" just like we have our "balEs" and I think it is well-established that audience feedback in both systems of ICM has inspired the musicians to new heights of performance. We also have the call-and-respond traditions in our bhajans (as also in folk music and street theatre/drama traditions across the country) that are essential to the enjoyment of the music. Imagine a bhajanai or a nAmasamkIrtanam without audience participation -- impossible! This is not something unique to India either. Many, if not most, musical traditions in Africa and the Middle East (of which qawwali is only one example) have audience feedback, sometimes very uniquely so (meaning it is not limited to shabAsh or kyA bAt but like with our bhajanai, the audience is expected to repeat the words of the song being sung). Not to forget that audience participation is vital in gospel music in the US and to a diminishing extent in Jazz performances as well. Contrast that with the pin-drop silence in a Western Classical concert -- different, definitely, but not necessarily better.

I recall one Hariprasad Chaurasia concert to a tiny engineering college audience in the early '80s. Most of the audience was being respectfully quiet and restrained, very professorial (the cliche of an academic audience) except for one elderly gentlemen whom no one seemed to recognize. He was very vocal with his appreciation and one could tell the rest of the audience found his enthusiastic presence a bit disruptive and uncomfortable. I did not know the aleph of HM so I could not tell anything about the quality of the music itself. In any case, after the intermission, HC seemed to be playing to an audience of one -- he subtly turned in his seat and played the entire remainder of the concert making eye contact with that gentleman (and that gent continued unabashed with his exclamations right till the end). I don't know if HC did that for positive or negative reasons, but the concert certainly took on a discernibly different shape after the intermission. I, for one, who did not understand the technicalities, was nevertheless enjoying the music vicariously just watching the interaction.

Somehow ICM has smoothly integrated the "proscenium" concept of an elevated and brightly-lit stage that puts some distance between audience and performer. Audience feedback went from shouts of shabAsh to polite clapping. The magic of audience feedback is/was lost in the bargain. Younger generations are probably completely unaware of this transition that has happened, as they have probably never witnessed anything else just as the older generations are unaware of what has changed in terms of audience participation from olden times. With the advent of live-streamed concerts, this will take it further downstream -- if there is demand, I am sure some new form of audience feedback will be invented -- perhaps "likes" in real time?

And I feel sad about it. I think we are losing something precious (those disappearing boisterous uncles were sometimes very annoying but they also added something positive to my enjoyment), but such is the nature of change. You don't learn the net profit-and-loss until much later.

-T

[arasi]

Thenpaanan,
Yes. Applause isn't shallow, unless it sounds shallow and weak for several reasons: a bored audience because it's a mediocre performance; they were roped in for reasons extraneous to the music being performed (obligation).
In all the concerts that I have been to, of babes to veterans, I haven't seen a single one of them on stage frowning over applause. For kids and beginners, it's a booster. For the topnotch ones, encouraging, for the aspiring ones, a tonic.

Wonder when words like kara ghOsham came into existence. bhalE and bhESh, from the north? Nods and vocal appreciation alone won't do when the audience is charmed by the music. Body language and the the drama of sound convey the happy state of an audience. Call it participation. Even at a formal western concert, see how the assembly erupts in brAvO-s and encore-s at the end. They NEED the clapping after playing a piece to sustain their sense of admiration until when it's allowed to find free reign--in their shouts of encores and bravOs.

Applauding is also nourishing to all artistes

[Sachi_R]

नाट्यशास्त्रम् of भरत (BCE)


Chapter XXVII - Success in Dramatic Production (siddhi)

atihāsa), ‘excellent’ (sādhu), ‘how wonderful’ (aho), ‘how pathetic’ (kaṣṭam), and tumultuous applause (pravṛddhanāda … And in cases of astonishment there should always be a tumultuous applause (pravṛddhanāda, lit. swelling sound).

[RSR]

A quote from the thread on Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan.
-----------------------------------------------
A concert was arranged in Triplicane. The organisers had, without the knowledge of Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan collected money at the gates. Noticing this, he refused to sing at that place. He said that the next day he would sing free at the Parthasarathy Temple and all could come and here it free. He sang for three days immersing the listeners in aesthetic bliss.
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There are many types of concerts. Temple concerts, Radio concerts, Chamber music concerts, sabha concerts.
Chamber music concerts can have eye-contact, and they dont clap
sabha concerts, preclude eye contact except with the first one or two rows. If we use virtual meeting technology, perhaps, the singer can have eye-contact with the listener. Not otherwise. Where is the question of clapping in a TNR concert?....In the olden days, even loudspeakers were not available.( ..Chembai-concerts.) This applause thing, sounds too much like a public political meeting.

[arasi]

RSR,
Kudos to MahA Vaidyanathaiyer. He was a mahAn--an exception to the rule. However, those three evenings that he immersed them in music at the temple, may be PerumAL and ThAyAr stood still soaking in the music but the music lovers who had gathered surely would have been swept away and would have sprinkled the concerts with AHA-s, bhalE-s and bhEsh-s and with thunderous applause (am I wrong in this?).

Of course, in a classical music performance, other than a hearty applause, euphoric chanting, whistling and such have no place. They belong in the sports arena-olEs too. Better save bhalE-s, bhEsh-s and SabhAsh-s for sabhAs. Perhaps AHA-s and arumai are fine too
.

[Sundara Rajan]

I Have a different anecdote about kalyana Nadaswarm event. We went to Tiruchi to attend my grand niece's wedding in 2006. I learned that the Nadaswarm vidvan for the function happened to be the grandson of the vidvan who had played for my elder brother's wedding in 1954. I had a short chat with him before the function and requested him to play my favorite Karahapriya during the wedding and he agreed. As the grand uncle of the bride I was asked to sit on the stage near the couple and I couldn't listen well to the music. At the end of the wedding ceremonies I went to the Nadaswaram group and was about to thank them for playing Karaharapriya. Thankfully, before I finished my sentence the artist apologized and stated that because of frequent interruptions he chose not play the raga ! I would have made a fool of myself, had I thanked for a raga that he did not play.

[arasi]

Sundara Rajan,
There you are! Another castaway with a personal recollection about a celebration--often happening in our infrequent flying years. Homecomings happened only around family weddings then.

That Kharaharapriya, even if it were played by the vidwan, it might have eluded you--your being overwhelmed with the occasion--jet lag too?!

Yet, when you heard the music fed into your ears as you traveled in Maharaja's care, AIR INDIA would have mostly played Ravi Shankar's music and much later a few carnatic musicians too. How times have changed!

An aside: We might luck out with the Cleveland Festival in summer and the streaming. I do not know how much energy we are going to have to write about it as we used to. Let's hope others do. We can just listen to our heart's content to kharaharapriya-s and what have you, with all the pravruddha nAda, as Sachi informs!

[shankarank]

Hello, Hello - I did not call Applause shallow

- but that that is a western way of appreciation as shallow, for we have been impacted with so many things in our history.

HC seemed to be playing to an audience of one -- he subtly turned in his seat and played the entire remainder of the concert making eye contact with that gentleman (and that gent continued unabashed with his exclamations right till the end). I don't know if HC did that for positive or negative reasons,

Likely he was testing what all things he could try out to shake up that gentleman!

There is another similar episode:

https://youtu.be/tN2K1gXiCGo?t=595

Sounds like the digil bagIl of ponniyin selvan - kapAla rudra bhairavar episode! PillaivAL (Sri Dakshinamurthy Pillai) got applause for appearance.

And this : https://youtu.be/tN2K1gXiCGo?t=941 is the nIla caTTai (blue Shirt in audience shaken up by pillaival's vasIgara tantiram) episode

And in episode 2 : SrI Chowdiah's first concert appearance for Chembai , PMI & PDP !

- "applause was indeed a rare commodity":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9VTNx1g6ws

[RSR]

Even in 1950-60, as narrated by devotees of MMI, in this forum, Radio was the medium. And during the past few years, MMI devotees are organizing listening sessions - free- from tapes. Doubtless, the attendees, exchange information among themselves about finer aspects now and then in low voice among themselves. It is akin to a taped chamber-music. No clapping. ...
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.....Most diaspora families have access to taped and recorded music only. ....Casettes by leading vocalists today are available in plenty. ...Sreamed music makes their concerts accessible to literally lakhs of music lovers world-wide so easily. It is here to stay and should.
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We are not any poorer for appreciating the finished creations in literature. To insist that , we must have access to the process of creation, including the numerous 'proofs' and discarded manuscripts , is ,illogical. This is a charge levelled against pre-recorded music Quite unreasonable.
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The best thing is to stream curated ' performance and CD's . ( modern equivalent of 78 rpm records of the past). How then to show our appreciation to artistes?
by buying their CD's and registering for the streamed 'curated performance'. and perhaps sharing our appreciation in social media. There is a 'clap' icon in Medium.
How do great film actors, singers and music directors give their best during production phase? Definitely not due to any feedback from the theater audience. The response is 'post-release'.
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'arasi' madam was referring to her experience of attending a Shakespeare play performance in London. Video clips are available and films too. Films like..BECKET,.LION IN THE WINTER, KING JOHN and a few more., dealing with those historic period, are better. Naturally.
It is like hankering after Kittappa plays . Technology has swept it away. With youtube like facilities, even film production will die soon. People are creating their own concerts, documentaries and such using low-cost video-recording equipments at home .and placing them in web. Everybody can be an author/publisher.
In 2050, the entire scene will be unrecognizable.
AS YOU LIKE IT - FILM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9hTxzLHU3I
.-----
These are some short clips of King John .Wonderful aid for learning and sharing.
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https://youtu.be/tm5WVxlJ__8
https://youtu.be/3KdT3r31LX4
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film clip
https://youtu.be/7lWn99STB1o
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https://sites.google.com/site/wars4rose ... -king-john

[shankarank]

Somehow ICM has smoothly integrated the "proscenium" concept of an elevated and brightly-lit stage that puts some distance between audience and performer. Audience feedback went from shouts of shabAsh to polite clapping. The magic of audience feedback is/was lost in the bargain.

Well in an era when we don't know our neighbors, the close knit contacts have vanished. That has put a critical importance on the continuing sabha system inheriting from giants of the past! With large unknown audience drawn to venues out of their own random volition or interest, no artist can expect that repeated listening of the same artist and the same rAgA/kriti has happened.

Today's audience are easily bored, gunning for variety.

Without repeated listening , where is even the possibility of a genuine sabhash.

Smt. MSS was called out for repetitions! From the sidelines of the MSS stage: Here is SrI K.V. Prasad in tribute to Sri T.K Murthy - how certain phrases are repeated and polished : https://youtu.be/YTqk3G7G4Lg?t=420 .

Also how repetition has gone out of vogue: https://youtu.be/YTqk3G7G4Lg?t=724

[arasi]

How many angles, how many viewpoints (ethanai kONam ethanai pArvai)!

Not that a few of us were saying that applause was an essential part of a performance. Just that it can be a natural response to something the audience enjoyed watching, listening to. In a Dakshinamurthy PillaivAL featured (starred) concert, the others on stage might have been thinking of saving their own backs from him rather than receiving applause for their play, as PMI's grandson describes the Khanjira giant on stage!

As for the plays I have seen, how Olivier, the Redgraves and others brought the house down at the end with the audience's appreciation for the magic that they wrought by their performances!

Oh, genuine applause is also to acknowledge those on stage for the work which went into their excellent performances...

[shankarank]

We also have to accept from what sort of predicament , the music was salvaged and re-established by Ariyakudi and his peers , along with PMI/PSP and violinists. People declare now grandly, how ARI format is an unmitigated disaster. Actually "format" is a small term, it is a Paddhati , a grand edifice built on core principles of viSrAnti, on which the Trinity composed.

Which includes all the desired rAgA aesthetics within practical considerations - it only demands work and more polish to do it within the time frame.

In that PMI story , see how he completed a tani within 2 minutes as demanded by Pillaival in the second concert. The man is a ragged college kid, who was indeed battle hardened from all that experience.

Interesting to note the thing about, the fear of his sisters that would make them do archana and aarati on his arrival home after concert!

[arasi]

SHANKARANK wrote: actually "format" is a small term, it is a paddhati, a grand edifice built on core principles of viSrAnti, on which the Trinity composed.

Indeed. Experiments are carried out by experts in a lab and among all the bright minds there, one happens to arrive at an idea at the right time and is able to steer the research into a new venue. Ari was that guy.

Ari was smart. The days of bullock cart rides to small towns came to an end with the railway reaching all of them. Long hours at the temple concerts and at the patrons meant days of staying on in one place. A comfortable compartment where you could sleep away the night and arrive at the venue, and even take the very night's train back home was the new way! Conveniences aside, in modern times where listeners had to go to work the next morning was another factor to consider. Even if you sang at three venues away from home, you could make it a brief trip and return to home sweet home in a short time.

As for the music, a planned one with an eye on time. He had the shrewdness to make sure the fare appealed to all kinds of listeners within its time frame. A wiz he was, and I do remember that twinkle in his eye which spoke of his acumen...