Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

[Sachi_R]

Good morning.

I am posting my thoughts under general discussions because what I wish to state and invite your responses to goes beyond personalities.

We lost Bharata Ratna Lata Mangeshkar to Covid 19. She was the nightingale I heard on Vividhbharati almost 24 x 7 for decades with her high pitched voice that was like a divine instrument. Lata meant sweetness, perfection of intonation and modulation and a most sattvic kind of music that was guaranteed to please and soothe unless you were in some agitated state and unable to relate to the sattvic quality. Singing of love, sacrifice, pining for the beloved, and reaching to the beyond, she delivered every time. It cannot be held against her that Hindi music fell from melody and purity to noise and meaningless lyrics over time. Her song in Lagaan pretty much made me sad that her voice was becoming her liability. But Lata ruled our hearts and ears for very very long. Truly a Bharata Ratna.

Contrast her with MSS. The Bharata Ratna who was the jewel in the crown of Carnatic music, continuing to give us a divine dose from dawn to late night, every day, through radio, Internet, clips in Whatsapp, FB, YT,.... Say it and she is there. She also lives through Kuldeep Pai and TM Krishna and so many others who leverage her music.

I feel the two Bharata Ratnas show what is really great about Indian sensibilities about music, albeit in contrasting ways.

Singing is a personal journey to perfection. Our raga-based musical aesthetics make it eminently suited to the human voice and allows vocal music to become all-consuming. Accompaniment, dramatisation, context, all only add to an excellence in aesthetics based on melody and rhythm.

Lyrics are almost everything after the raga and tune. If one does not present the words and the emotion right, that music is gone. All the Rahman effects and overtheatrical sounds and noises simply subtract from the fundamental excellence of Indian music.

Both Lata and MSS were original. All me-too renditions however good are for me nothing compared to the original. It is as if when I hear and enjoy a TMK or a Sooryagayatri, my heart has within it MSS singing the song.

I think Lata has not spawned such a remix phenomenon as much as MSS did.

Lata was a singular force who took over once the tunesmith and lyricist gave her the brief. You do not see in her music the the infrastructure of support behind it. MSS was in contrast a temple deity in a chariot procession and you saw all the preparations, support structure, decorations, all adding value to the experience although the core of it was the voice and the spirit of MSS.

The more dimensions of orchestration, visualisation, and filigree we add to Indian vocal music, the more it detracts from the purity of the experience. There has to be a modicum of accompaniment of course, but let us bring back the spirit of Lata and MSS by dismantling the bells and whistles and giving free rein to pure vocal music. Some musicians recognize this and do very well.

[RSR]

ref-p-1
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i beg to differ. Studio orchestration and recording have their own merits. There are about 40 gramaphone records of Smt.MS with orchstration by S.V.Venkataraman .pure gems. ...all these are in the decade 1940 to 1950.
..To illustrate with a well-known song of Smt.MS , record released in 1942,' maalaip pozhuthinile oru NaaL' -ragamalika-lyrics by Kalki. The record runs for just 6 minutes- chenchurutti, behag,sindhubairavi,mohanam and NaadhNaamariya. SVVenkataraman's music background even at the very beginning of the record, just a few seconds,,,,and then the beginning of the third stana -again so very brief, greatly enhance the tune. It all depends. The same songs rendered in concert platforms later in her ]ife without orchestration are totally flat. Ofcourse, there is the age-factor also.
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Likewise for Lata Mangeshkar.. She was just 18, ( born in 1930), when her 'dubba' music , tuned by Shankar-Jikisgan took music world by storm. The great music directors of that era like CRamachandra and Madan Mohan , were so thrilled that at alast they had a singer who can really translate their music inspiration - and orchestration - into faithful rendering- and even adding her own embellishments.. Neither the song nor the tune would have been the same had they been sung by anyone else and without or with orchestration by less-talented and classical-oriented music directors.
Actually it is true of many of MS records too. She would add her own flash of niraval ,just a fleeting second, ...no music director could have taught her that. It was all her own.
There are atleast a 100 classical and semi-classical tunes sung by Lata and music by CRamachandra, Madanmohan, and Shankar-Jaiishan of the great decades 1947 to 1967, Lata was then 17 to 37. I suppose, that is best age band for any vocalist especially lady-artistes.
The classics of so many of CRamachandra --especially in films like Anarkali, Jaanjar, Amardeep, Albela, Azad, Yasmin and many more are immortal ... not only due to the voice of Lata but due to the great tune and greater orchestration. In those decades, 1950-1960, they enslaved sensitive listeners all over India even in the southern-most state, who did not know hindi at all.
MadanMohan films were not boxoffice hits but there were so many happy and sad tunes sung by Lata

.
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>Madan Mohan and Lata Mangeshkar. Names that are often considered synonyms for each other. One was a man who said he would not have composed so much if Lata Mangeshkar had not been there to sing it. The other who said, ``Other composers gave me `Gaane' while Madan bhaiyya gave me `Gaana' to sing"

Shankar-Jaikishan , dubbed as a 'dubba-music' specialist, gave us so many clssical gems in Seema, Basanth Bahar and Dil ek mandir.
and so many liltiing tunes with accordion, mandolin and piano, --who can forget-- 'Aja sanam' in Chori Chori -the same raga as ;aatrinile varum geethham' ? or the wafting duet' yeh rath bigi'? how about 'man mohana bade joote' in Seema? ...immortal songs in Anuradha music by Ravi Shankar.
.
There is total degeneration in standards since 1966. That is no reason to condemn recorded orchestration music.
True,....... the classical music- concert pattern cannot accommodate the orchestration
Film music rendered by Lata ,tuned by CRamachandra, Madan Mohan took basics of melody to common people all over the country and diaspora. even much more effectively than . the orthodox 'kutchery' monotonies.
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Those days will never return. Gone for ever. ---like the MS of 1940-1950 decade.

[Sachi_R]

All excellent points sir. My theory is that what made Lata and MSS different was the voice. Its primacy should not be buried.

[rajeshnat]

Certainly Lata Mangeshkar is a great musician . Few points there
1. She had a great pitch
2. She lived in an era with great music directors like MadanMohan, Naushad , Shankar jaikishan to later year musicians upto Illayaraja. AR Rehman and they all gave great songs
3. All said she built a brand with herself, Most of them associated her voice with freedom struggle and into an era of bit independence etc all that where her brand was liked by more

How about other side atleast from my side
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1. In 1980s i thought the voice of say Anuradha Paudwal was even more better than lata in Hindi world

2. Can we compare her songs to say renditions of what say S Janaki has sung for Illayaraja especially 1980s or late 1970s.

3. Her voice was not the best of voice , bit nasal , she surely had the pitch but did not have the manoeuvrable flow as much as many other musicians like s janaki, anuradha paudwal, swarnalatha or chitra to me atleast

4. In total count of songs Musicians like S janaki are double in count to Lata, but hindi music chances were less , hence the so called govt of india or bulk of India hardly noticed the more aesthetic film music.

5. Quite frankly Lata Mangeshkar is may be a Nightingale of only one part of India , not NIghtingale of India.

6. I hardly care Jawaharlal Nehru praising any musician , that is more a partial spam . I care more perhaps say LalithaRam or bilahari or ranganayaki or sindhuja appreciating some musician.

Perhaps from 2000 surely after advent of writing reviews in rasikas or sangeetham, i some how feel we are misplacing way too much praise to few musicians but in merit there are far more better musicians who are not talked that much and also they not having big title or brand recall .

Truth hurts but one Prime reason is The North Indians have a very low barrier to understand what depth we have say in carnatic music or even say south indian film music composed especially by Illarayaraja preferably sung by three top favorites of mine in descending order SPB, Janaki and Yesudas. In hindi music I adore mohammad Rafi and i will put him in league of SPB,Janaki and Yesudas.

All said Lata is indeed a great singer , but not the greatest singer . With the state of the general film music as of today her music is surely healing to many , I just heard one of her song Lag Ja Gale that was just too good(I think madanmohan is the composer) .

Om Shanthi To Lata Mangeshkar , the nightingale for pockets of India who have not heard the other pockets of india who has much deeper music. (Even many Hindi speaking North Indians have agreed with me on what i stated)

p.s felt like speaking my mind , that too after hardly writing anything in rasikas for a long time.

[RSR]

ref- p4 ------rajeshnat

Smt.MS was primarily and mostly, a classical concert vocalist. ..Though Lata has given some records in early years in non-film .a few
are available in youtube- classical tunes, she is first and foremost a playback singer. ..That gives some advantages like studio-recording, wider variety of moods and sentiments to sing , support of suitable orchestration. ..the same advantages that Smt.MS had in her Thamizh and Hindi film versions of Meera.
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Lata consciously chose a career in Film music. especially Hindi film music . The reality is that the entire heartland of India, including Maharashtra and even Gujarath, and beyond, extending and including Pakisthan ( after all , they were part of undivided India and they are still culturally part of us ...partition is just political-need not be and will
not be permanent.), speaks Hindi and Urdu. and that gave her a reach to audience all over the country and across the border, , not available to any other lady vocalist in films. ....Nothing to complain about...... HM and CM artistes of repute amply recognize their common roots and cherish each other. The best blend is seen from Northern Karnataka and Maharashtra, ...the native provinces of Lata.
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Smt.MS won the hearts of great vocalists like AlladiaKhan, Bade and Ghulam Ali Khan ...
...
Similarly, Lata's reach into the southern states is definitely not because of language. What then is the secret?
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Her voice.!..... ideally suited as play-back voice to young heroines. in films She retained that great girlish voice even upto her 40th year. As is inevitable for any vocalist ...including legends like Smt.MS, voice cannot but age. And the problem was compounded by fading away of incomparable music-composers like CRamachandra
--.
So, there is no question of total approval and adulation for ALL her songs in later years. after 1970. But, in her youthful years, her voice was without parallel any where.
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Smt.MS, Smt.DKP and Smt.NCV were almost of same age and from 1940 to 1952, all of them gave some exquisite film songs. Lata's reign begins when that decade ended. If NCV had lived longer and chosen to sing in Hindi, she would have been ideal competition to Lata.
I would identify the voice-timbre of DKP, MS, NCV and LATA ,with GoTtu
Vaadhyam, VeeNa, Sitar and Mandolin in that order.
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MLV was nearly 14 years junior to Smt.MS and Lata was almost the same age as MLV. and MLV was primarily a concert artiste . However, she did sing in films in the same span of years from 1948 to 1968. Her voice was not as girlish as that of Lata. and could not suit all heroines of her times.
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.Radha-Jayalakshmi, or rather Jayalakshmi sang in quite a good number of films and her singing style was better suited to young heroines. Her voice was slightly less heavy compared to that of MLV.
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Playback singing is altogerher a different genre from concert platform. .By that criterion, South Indian films had a set of talented lady artistes like Bhanumathi, Periyanayaki, KrushnaveNi-'Jikki', and Susheela and Leela. Their voice 'ganam'-weight-timbre was suitable for film songs and there are some good songs by them...but though they belonged to the same years of Lata's heady years 1948-1968, none could rank with Lata.. They were sometimes good but not superlative.

So, that explains why Lata scored over and floored every one of her contemporaries , including her sister Asha....The main reason was however the tunes , South Indian films were nowhere near those of the Music composers of Hindi films- in the decades 1948-1968....Even the apparently, 'dubba' songs of Shankar-Jikishan duo, had an easily identifiable HM raga base...most often of Hindusthani Bairavi,Jonpuri, Beemplaas, Kapi, Piloo, Mand , Yaman, Bagesree and Behag. .. often an inebriating cocktail mixture which added to the melody and evidence of their creative genius. ...these are rubbished as thukkada ragas in CM concert circles..as if a film music should be in aarabhi and aabogi.
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And HM ragas, whether pure or ' misra ' are more evocative. Even the kruthis of the Trinity, when based on the Ten MK common to both HM and CM are more moving and soulful.
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We are not discussing male-singers here. except as in duets with Lata. and that too with focus on the stanzas sung by Lata.. So, reference to Rafi is not relevant to this thread.
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Is it because Nehru spoke well about Smt.MS that her music has devotees among all age groups? Nothing. ....It is just worn-out cliche.
- GNB and MLV worshiped Bade Ghulam and Bade Ghulam had high praise for the voice timbre and shruthi-purity of MS and Lata. ..'never a false note ' was the comment by him om Lata's voice.
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Smt MS was a concert artist and so could adapt to different ages . That option was not available to Lata as a playback-singer. It is a wonder that she managed to sing for heroines for nearly five decades!
Efflorescence in the popular and classical art forms is most often a catalyst or outcome -mutual- of a corresponding spring in socio-political climate. That explains the dramatic changes in South Indian music..and North Indian music, both classical and popular. It began in 1935 and lasted during the finest years of our independence movement the afterglow extended for twenty more years. It was a period of breath-taking heroism, finest values , huge huge tragedies of the partition , uprooting of crores of people especially in north india and the east and the horrors and heroism of the second world war.
This is what rajeshnat refers to as 'independence' movement effect. No one was untouched. Even strict Carnatic classical musicians like ARI and MMI were affected. Should we be apologetic ? No.
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And Lata actually belonged to the after-glow decade after 1947. A bit of historical insight does help.....the derisive tone is myopic.
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I was trying to choose a high-pitch and shruti-pure rendering from hundreds of Lata classics of old, ...and remembered 'aajaa ab tho aajaa'... (Anarkali- CRamachandra) .. It could have been tuned without the slightly intruding whip-lash sounds but still...!I am not giving the tube link here as almost invariably, the visuals take away the loveliness of Lata's great singing. but so popular that google search will land in the page in a jiffy.
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Sound engineers are sure to agree.

[Sachi_R]

"as almost invariably, the visuals take away the loveliness of Lata's great singing."

Well said, sir! I find most song picturisations nightmarish. And even the videos put out by CM singers nowadays terrible. It seems music has dimensions that acting (that too poor acting with lip sync after studio recording and autotuning) cannot ever capture.

[Nick H]

No actors, just the music and a B&W picture...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXGhgExkjXU

[RSR]

@Nick H
How did you read my mind so wonderfully? Thank you very much for the link. I was extracting the mp3 , uploading to drive and then creating an audio-player link in web-page. Your link solves all those problems. @Sachi_R Exactly, Sir.

[Nick H]

I just searched!

To be honest, I could probably listen without the accompaniment, as her voice is, of course, amazing. But the film-music packaging, even vintage, is not for me.

[arasi]

What a thread!
Sachi,
Your starting it, saluting the two inimitable grande dames of music is uplifting. Your living with their music echoed in me and made me celebrate them both again, and to thank them for the way they nourished the musical thirst in me, especially in my growing years. You have zeroed in on what after all is soul-satisfying for all of us, in our own ways of course--that one magical quality of theirs which connected us with the bliss of musical experience. I did not follow Latha's music as avidly as I did as a youngster, in the seventies and thereafter.

RSS,
I am moved by your sentiments too. How you bring in the flavor of the fine music of that era! Yes, indeed. Ramchandra was unique. His music just flowed, and how Latha interpreted it faithfully for him and the lyricist, more emotively than with others, like the grand Naushad, lilting tune smiths Shankar-Jaikishan, and all outstanding others you have mentioned, Vasanth Desai and more.
One favorite song of mine, I don't find in your list of Chittalkar's music is the haunting nA ummId hOkE bhi duniyA me jiyE jAtE hain. The magic of, effortless gushing of Chittalkar Ramchandra's music. Rajesh, you may know (?) that his first directorial debut was with the tamizh movie MaNikkoDi?

Nick,
You couldn't have brought a better picture of Ms Mangeshkar than this to make your point.

Rajesh,
Sorry, you didn't live through those years to really feel the priceless emotive quality in those songs
You haven't heard some of Shamshad Begum's early ones, either. I am glad Mohd Rafi gained your top marks though!

[rajeshnat]

Rajesh,
Sorry, you didn't live through those years to really feel the priceless emotive quality in those songs
You haven't heard some of Shamshad Begum's early ones, either. I am glad Mohd Rafi gained your top marks though!

Arasi
To a great extent i have heard shamshad begum and very early songs of lata though very likely not all of that possibly you or sachi would have covered . My assert is not a wild assert without hearing enough of Lata. In general i have been wondering in general for atleast a decade or 15 years where whenever you said you went to UK in 70s and then to USA , then much later when you started hearing a lot of Sanjay ,your CM and music in general has a bit of lean period between your extraordinary VV Sadagopan /Ambujam Krishna 70s to Sanjay 1990s where there is a gap.

All,
On a general note , i used to think all my CM is because of maharajapuram santhanam and a combo of bit early days of in general with appreciating music because of llayaraja +SPB + Janaki + KJY etc . But in the last 10 years , when i hear musicians especially some one like TR Subramaniam, i feel I did not pay attention to more depth music when i only heard santhanam . Why did i say to TRS mama in delhi and asked him Will you sing like santhanam and skipped TRS only live concert of TRS ? Why i did not evolve then?

So to an extent , i apply the same logic where instead of at times settle only with santhanam , why did i not hear TRS and the same logic i am applying to all of you let us not get carried away with Lata Mangeshkar way too much . This does not mean i dont like Lata per se , but give a try to S janaki especially with Illayaraja .Possibly for many of you may not get the angle that i am coming from.

All said Music is the most truthful search where atleast I can experience the layers of differential quality where i am seeking a certain deeper depth and originality. I struggle to get that same nuance some times even basic nuance in family , sport , work , literature etc but with music , i am finding it bit difficult to accept at times the meaning of endharO mahanubhAvulu ....

[Nick H]

Nick,
You couldn't have brought a better picture of Ms Mangeshkar than this to make your point.

I thought it was beautiful too.

I'm sorry I don't like the music, but nobody can please everybody, and having delighted millions (or more!) a couple of dissenters here and there is inevitable .

[ganesh_mourthy]

Greetings after a long gap.

Nick it is Ok to be dissenting , honestly, that is nothing captivating to me and what I might miss entirely is the fact that I did not time travel that period as much as Arasi , RSR, Sachi might have done. And having lived in a certain period evokes a completely different feeling. That nostalgic factor is powerful which Rajesh and I might be missing, much less you. But to me lata is this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdX_sQr19Yo
or this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCsa5eG9oo0
and many more. The orchestration is better ... she found a better modulation for the voice. Her voice differed from time to time , and people invent their own voices.

Though I agree with Rajeshnat with some of his aspects, I see Lata, Susheela, Janaki, and Asha to be above others. This often could be due to how much the directors were willing to experiment with their voices, yet let us not forget the primacy of their voices over the years. They invented a separate timbre away from classical music voice. It was not like that of the opera, not like the Carnatic , not like the Hindustani or thumri ... This is a high-pitched voice, shrill and sharp of course, yet soft and adapting to the characters. A simple aaa aa humming of the same note in the same pitch varied from the aaa aa humming of film music . I am sure you all get it .. The gliding style , the softness attached to it can give you an instant feel that it is film alapana and not a classical alapana.

I give a lot of credit to Lata for this as she somehow ( along with music directors ) pioneered this style with several trials and errors. The initial period was so shrill and nothing great. But then towards mid 50's she changed her style of singing. This high-pitched, shrill, not shouting out, yet soft has become the epitome of female playback singer voice.

To me, the voice and maneuvering of Janaki are much more haunting than that of a Lata. She could modulate her voice so aptly to suit different situations. But , again Janaki did try and experimented with her voice. She was good in her early times but amazing post-1975. And her timbre was very similar to Lata's. she was another gifted singer.

here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7nefHP3nms

Speaking of sheer voice quality, as cited by many other singers Susheela is better than anyone else in film music. Never a shrill tone even if she touched the G# or A .. It was a sweet yet (ganeer) voice. I have heard many mentioning that . This was the voice we never heard after. yet , she should also credit her style and pitch to Lata and she does do it. Janaki also credits her style and she is gaga of Lata. That is because Lata laid the road to a specific style of singing and as Rajesh mentioned others like Janaki took it to another level. But we cannot forget the foundation that was laid by her on which others might have excelled.

If I have to pick ( also because my music orientation is a bit different as much as my time travel ) , I would pick Susheela for the sheer bliss of that powerful tone with all that inbuilt feel, and Janaki who has created magic ofter magic. But , I should honestly accept that the credit also greatly goes to Lata automatically. ...But the other singers that Rajeshnat had mentioned, .. nay .. that is THE nasal voice... not even open-throated. Just a plain sweet voice.

But whoever said , Hindi music was extraordinary and Tamil a low rung music..... that is a different bone of contention. Earlier , The number of music directors greatly outnumbered us . And we had a fantastic female voice and It would have been sheer magic if we have had those many music directors. ...Apart from that , we did not have the male voice to the standard of Rafi or Kishore. And that really matters. The singers carry the music to another level.

To conclude, Lata laid the foundation to THAT style, tone and timbre that all of the other singers followed later.

Ganesh Mourthy

[arasi]

Ganesh Mourthy,
I found your analysis quite educative. I loved the first song that you brought us (Salil Chowdhri) something I hadn't heard before.
We all agree I suppose, in thinking that she was a phenomenon in that she knowingly or unknowingly set a new standard for playback singing. She possessed a voice which made all the difference. Even her initial slightly regional pronunciation of hindi/urdu lyrics in her songs (hawA me uDtA jAyE for one) sounds charming, to this day. Her classical training added to her strength. The lyrics by poets must have inspired her. Thus, within a few years of starting to lend her voice to movies of all kinds which she continued to do (it didn't matter), and with Inspiring lyrics and grand music directors, she soared to great heights and stayed there. Thus, generations of movie goers became her listeners forever. Her staying power was tremendous too--just as with MSS.

Rajesh,
Your analysis of my listening history was detailed and impressive--though a bit inaccurate You have such a good memory about my migrative history too. Our moving away from India in the early sixties didn't deprive us of listening to film music in England. It was concerts that we missed. The one concert I heard (relevant to this thread) was MSS's in London, just before she sang at the UN.
Both in England, here in the US and during our stay in Europe, taped music was our nourishment. K collected them with such zeal, even after live concerts became a reality here--first in a trickle and then aplenty. Let's not digress. This thread is not about CM concerts but about two extraordinary music making women of our times, reigning as long as they did in bringing joy to the world. Let's just bow to that...

[rajeshnat]

Rajesh,
Your analysis of my listening history was detailed and impressive--though a bit inaccurate You have such a good memory about my migrative history too. Our moving away from India in the early sixties didn't deprive us of listening to film music in England. It was concerts that we missed. The one concert I heard (relevant to this thread) was MSS's in London, just before she sang at the UN.
Both in England, here in the US and during our stay in Europe, taped music was our nourishment. K collected them with such zeal, even after live concerts became a reality here--first in a trickle and then aplenty. Let's not digress. This thread is not about CM concerts but about two extraordinary music making women of our times, reigning as long as they did in bringing joy to the world. Let's just bow to that...

OK Arasi , I have to disagree with that . All of us have pockets of musical lacuna .

Here is one song link for you. I am assuming you have heard this as Krishnan Sir collected this tape music.

Lata Mangeshkar voice like many female musicians generally suits a bit of melancholy. Melancholy adds a certain direction of pointedness . This music director must have inspired and the greatest aesthetics is the prelude and 2 interlude tunes with a heavy string violin section, that reminds this music director like a madanmohan, c ramachandran , naushad. Every film singer is directed by the excellence of the music composer. Ofcourse singers add their charm heavily. The question is in absolute terms , is that if the singer has added such great charm like few other contemporaries..... I will digress if I answer that in detail.

In Carnatic Terms Lata Mangeshkar is like ariyakudi and then mmi, semmangudi and gnb came bit later. Ariyakudi also did not patent the so called kutcheri paddhati it is his guru Poochi Iyengar. Some one being born earlier is not a good enough reason (This is for Ganesh Mourthy)

[rajeshnat]

Om shanthi to a great singer Lata Mangeshkar , This is for @arasi . Perhaps my last post in this thread. May be there is a tinge of Lata with all that you heard before I was born . I think ragam is may be shivaranjani . This is one of the few songs of Lata in solo in a south indian language with interlude and prelude ideas having inspiration with music composers of great repute like madan mohan, c ramachandra, naushad, shankar jaikishan etc....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkmLA9WQE4
EngirundhO alaikum | Pulavar Pulamaipithan | Lata Mangeshkar | Greatest Film Music composer | En Jeevan Padhuthu | 1988

[RSR]

ref-p-13
@ganesh_mourthy
Very nice post. ..quite balanced.. and approached from film-music angle, as Lata was a film-music vocalist.

They invented a separate timbre away from classical music voice. It was not like that of the opera, not like the Carnatic , not like the Hindustani or thumri ... This is a high-pitched voice, shrill and sharp of course, yet soft and adapting to the characters.

A simple aaa aa humming of the same note in the same pitch varied from the aaa aa humming of film music . I am sure you all get it .. The gliding style , the softness attached to it can give you an instant feel that it is film alapana and not a classical alapana.

-
Excellent.
And again,

"But then towards mid 50's she changed her style of singing. This high-pitched, shrill, not shouting out, yet soft has become the epitome of female playback singer voice."

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I would say, from 1951, instead of 'towards the mid-50's.
--
This is from 1951- Malhar- Roshan's music..
https://youtu.be/4AhC1UdAewM
...I think, songs in Poonam 1952, and Aah -1953 , Mayurpank were all pre-1955.

'man mohana bade jute' in seema....Jaijaivanthi....1955
.'sapno me sajan ki' in Gateway of India....1957
'jaare badriya' in Bahana. ..1960
..'wo chand jahan ' Hamsadwani classic in Sharada-1957 and
mere man ka bawra panchi' in Amardeep -1957
--
Whoever can say, that Lata 's voice for sad songs!
Here is a MadanMohan classic- "Lagan Tose Lagi Balma"..from Dekh Kabira Roya- 1957.....a lively, lovely frolic song for a 'dance' so very different and spontaneous..
( this is for rajeshnat)
------
1955,56,57.....were the BEST years.
. ,
Someone has put an archive of 5000 songs ....old and new ... in web and as we have not heard all, it is hard to generalize.
.
'Timbre' is very hard to define. The voice of Smt.MS in the decade 1940-1950 is not the same as in later years. Yet, the same singer . How exactly we define 'timbre' ? Is it measurable objectively by some frequency spectrum analysis? ..We often come across sentences like 'singing in 4 kattai' sruthi etc. But there is no such FIXED frequency concept in Carnatic music and HM even. Is the standard harmonium key-frequencies /tambura being referred to? ..Do they have fixed frequencies? Are all the harmoniums and tamburas ''identical' ?
.
So, how do we scientifically differentiate the same kruthi, like 'Dinamani vamsa.. with same basic sruthi', as rendered by ARI, SSI and then Smt.MS?..
.
..Again...the same MS singing 'EnnaGaanu' -panthuvaraaLi, as a gramaphone record in 1940's and later in 1960's ? ...I am just trying to understand the science ..not arguing.
--
Lata gave some concert hall presentations in London in later years..of the classics of her past songs. Even with orchestration, it is not having the same effect...rather 'so-so'.
.
So, this has got nothing to do with 'pitch' ..basic sruthi. Perhaps, a voice singing a song at any point of its life, will give us a BAND of frequencies, which characterizes and differentiates it from others. ...why- even from that of the same vocalist at a more advanced age....
-
It is for experts like you to enlighten but not from WCM angle.
---
Another very moot point is the duration of film songs. This has remained more or less fixed as between 3 to 4 minutes. throughout the history of film music. ..more akin to non-film gramaphone records.... That is another and perhaps more defining feature and requirement in film music. ..The song has to bring out the essence of the tune at the shortest possible time.
.
This is so , for so many of Smt.MS records in 1940's. especially, 'vaanatthin meethu mayilaadakkandaen'. ...MAAND. I do not know if she sang it in any of her early concerts, but if she had, as a 'thukkada' at the closing stage, with the same high pitch and 'open throat', the effect should have been electrifying.
.
Thank you for understanding the generation gap'...but permit me to add that it is not mere nostalgia. ..there indeed are objective standards, though difficult to articulate and admiration for a specific period of past music, is not decided by the time of your youth. and it is not admiration and glorification of everything in the past.
.
.We have a comparatively young enthusiast in our forum, who specializes in the music of GNB and Karukurichi and such. ....He has mentioned that Kaarukurichi played 'yeh zindagi' in his instrument. But, the equally breathtaking background music orchestration-of that song-the sad second part- would have been sorely missed.
.
So, it is a combined effect like a garland of various flowers..
Lyrics, tune, singing voice , background music, theme and even the listening environment...listening to the same song in a theater with fine acoustics is not the same as listening to it at home. That perhaps explains the concert-hall effect,
.
As you observed, the earliest Lata of Barsath, though sweet, is too girlish ...but after all she sang for very young actress Nargis---of her own age- and she herself was a mere girl then (no-less charming and sprightly) , but quite naturally, her voice became maturer-sweeter and gained ever so slightly in timbre --her age -18-21...It is more biological than conscious adaptation.
.
Thank you again, for very informative and understanding input.
"

[RSR]

Lata Mangeshkar -born in 1930- in a concert- 1950- she was 20 then.
Malkauns
https://youtu.be/8NYf2U5bTGQ
not a film song clip
This is a very rare 'live' video clip - How very different from her later day pictures!...She is charming with her luxuriant double-plaits and very dignified presence while rendering. ...Smt.MS also was different in appearance in 1947 Meera premiere.
Sometimes, visuals could be a treat, too. (@Sachi_R

[arasi]

RSR,
What a treat! With her luxuriant 'double plaits' as we used to call them--the young woman from a traditional musical family!
Yes, all those beautiful songs you mention. Then manmOhanA baDi jhUTE also in jujAvanti, another hamsadhwani song jA, tujhsE nahIn bOlUn kanhaiyA, rasik balmA, dhIrE se AjAri akhiyan mE nindiyA, jAgO mOhan pyArE jAgO, duniyA me ham AyEngE to jInA hi paDEgA, hari tErO nAm, chali jA chalijA and a thousand more., all having a life of their own and of the actresses we saw on the screen, becoming them--be it Nargis, Madhubala, Meena Kumari, Nalini Jayvanth, Nutan, Nimmi. How many tune smiths there, how many moods in the films, her voice fitted in! Latha could sing in their mode--be it the music of a regal Naushad, free-flowing but evocative tunes of C. Ramchandra, a bubbling but stirring Shankar& Jaikishan number and of all other gifted music directors, you name them.
We also had in Tamizh films a short spell when the talented music makers were obscured by a craze in film makers for lifting not very inspiring tunes from popular Hindi movies (no copyright worries in those days).The result? Our ears were attuned more to Hindi movies and Ameen Sayani's Binaca Geetmala on the radio!

Rajesh,
I heard the tamizh song Lata has sung which you have posted. It's a pretty mosaic tile of music to me. Nothing more. Call it generation gap. Though over the years, I have heard some lovely tunes of Ilayaraja recommended by youngsters here and there.

[Sachi_R]

Arasi, thanks for your blooming again here. There is a tree in Lalbagh that bloomed after 100+ years and we all thronged the park to see it!

[arasi]

Sachi,
The poet that you are
A graceful person too
Ah, how you make me
Feel so young today!

NO, I wasn't born yet when it bloomed the last time
Good to be back, trying to catch up with all that you folks have been contributing. Slowly, but steadily, I hope

[ganesh_mourthy]

'Timbre' is very hard to define. The voice of Smt.MS in the decade 1940-1950 is not the same as in later years. Yet, the same singer . How exactly we define 'timbre' ? Is it measurable objectively by some frequency spectrum analysis? ..We often come across sentences like 'singing in 4 kattai' sruthi etc. But there is no such FIXED frequency concept in Carnatic music and HM even. Is the standard harmonium key-frequencies /tambura being referred to? ..Do they have fixed frequencies? Are all the harmoniums and tamburas ''identical' ?
.
So, how do we scientifically differentiate the same kruthi, like 'Dinamani vamsa.. with same basic sruthi', as rendered by ARI, SSI and then Smt.MS?..
.
..Again...the same MS singing 'EnnaGaanu' -panthuvaraaLi, as a gramaphone record in 1940's and later in 1960's ? ...I am just trying to understand the science ..not arguing.
--

RSR

Timbre is a very definible term, though not as straightforward as a pitch . While pitch is a frequency that we assign numbers to , timbre is rather in a wave form around that pitch .

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vect ... 1057812941

Different instrument could be like this at the same pitch if you looked at closely .

And the same instrument among itself can vary in timbre - the reason why a stradivarius sounds different from a China-make violin and hence the difference in price.

It happens with the voice too . Two person singing the same pitch ... just as an aaaaaaaaaaaa can sound different due to the difference in timbre. And the timbre of a person will change as they age. That is the reason why a particular note of Lata will not have sounded the same and the feelable difference as she aged. However, each voice has a change in timbre inherent to their voice.

Now about your carnatic , hindustani and pitch . Well , the composers did not assign a pitch to the krithis , but definitely there is a pitch of a singer - the pitch is the one they assign for the Sa of any songs in carnatic music or hindustani music.

Here

Samaja vara gamana by 3 singers.

Sri. GNB is singing it in C ( 1 kattai )
Srimathi. MLV is singing it in F ( 4 kattai )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hG3kJ3Fy58

https://youtu.be/7jWyAefMroY?t=1353

Here the above is this is C ( 1 kattai ) but here Smt. Janaki sings one octave exactly above what GNB sings.

Hope it helps

Ganesh_mourthy

[Sachi_R]

RSR
4 kattai refers to the pitch of a particular key on the harmonium which corresponds to F. In HM they call it Safed 4.
In other words 4 kattai is the same for all singers and instrumentalists.

Timbre is the personality of a sound which includes the harmonics and hence the spectral envelope.

We see how new digital instruments including the software on an iPad try to recreate the timbre of wooden, string and wind instruments but with mixed success. The sound reproduction system (vibratory surfaces) also play a role.

[RSR]

ref-p-22 and p-23
ganesh_mourthy, Sachi_R
.
Thank you, Sirs. I think, I am getting the idea correctly. Am I right in my understanding that a particular key in harmonium or a particular fret in VeeNa has a definite frequency. It can be quantified and is standard.
.
For any vocalist, the choice of the basic-aadhaar sruthi, is his/her option. For lady-singers, most of them can choose this 'basic-key' at a higher key than most male-vocalists. Choosing a higher key as basic and yet traversing 'pa' of low octave, through the normal-middle octave and reaching upto 'pa' of the higher octave is the usual range. Instruments of course, may cover greater range.
.
Some renowned Lady artistes can choose a higher key , habitually and yet cover the range with pitch-purity.
.
Thus understood, NCV has a higher natural base pitch than Smt.MS and (blasphemy.)..Lata can do that at even a higher base-pitch. and execute all nuances. CM does not need that as it is based on kruthis. but film music may utilize such great high pitch and range as in HM.
.
The image provided by Sri.Ganes is very useful in understanding the concept of 'timbre'. ..100 per cent in agreement. But if we want to illustrate the concept of 'timbre', it should be done with examples having the same 'base-pitch'.
.
Let us assume that the 'normal' 'sa' of a standard harmonium is chosen as the 'base-pitch'. After this,, all the vocalists can render any
kruthi for that base-pitch. If we can record the frequency variations of each and carry-out an analysis, that would indicate the timbre. of each voice. Illustration then should be based on the same-base pitch for each vocalist.
.
. Lata is said to have sung around 20,000 songs over many decades. Even the best of CM lady vocalists , including the venerable Smt.MS has not sung so many songs of different ranges and speeds and such. The criteria are entirely different. ..each supreme in their chosen domain. But, could not Lata have sung the same kruthis and songs as Smt.MS ? i think, she could have but the timbre would have been unsuitable ,artificial and superfluous for CM kruthi rendering. That applies to all the other lady-film-vocalists , being mentioned. Truth to tell, there are some who consider 'Jikki's rendering of the zindagi usiki' song's thamizh variant in the film 'kaavery' ('chinthai Noyum ') as even better than that of Lata. ..not in my opinion.
--
But, it is a grave error to consider any film song sans its original orchestration In fact, in many of the classics of 'the golden period' of Hindi Film music- by commonly understood yardstick- 30 percent of the greatness of the song is due to the tune, orchestration and interludes. And given the wonderful ragas and misra-ragas of HM, the best of Lata would naturally be better than the best of other regions. Who knows? The South may yet give us some young lady-artiste, and suitable composer to compete with the vintage.

[arasi]

RSR,
About orchestration in old film songs: how very true! They were one entity--the singing and the sound of the instruments flowing into each other. Naushad's music for example (symphonic at times--he was trained in western classical piano playing, I think).

[ganesh_mourthy]

I right in my understanding that a particular key in harmonium or a particular fret in VeeNa has a definite frequency. It can be quantified and is standard.

Harmonium is similar to the keyboard to some extent. Straight notes for the reference of the singers or the instrumentalists as they sing and play. Veena's frequency of the frets will vary and it is similar to a violin. It depends on which base note you tune it to.

For any vocalist, the choice of the basic-aadhaar sruthi, is his/her option. For lady-singers, most of them can choose this 'basic-key' at a higher key than most male-vocalists. Choosing a higher key as basic and yet traversing 'pa' of low octave, through the normal-middle octave and reaching upto 'pa' of the higher octave is the usual range. Instruments of course, may cover greater range.

To some extent, yes, but it is also to do with the adaptability of the voice, together with the accepted standard in that music system. Men usually ( both in carnatic and hindustani) sing between 1 and 2 1/2 . A few went lower than C ( 1 kattai ) and a few went above 2 1/2 kattai. As you go lower than C it gives more a base (katta kural) feeling and higher than D# it gives a somewhat nasal tone and the voice gets sharper and it suited the temple ambience better in the absence of mic as the sound can reach farther .

this is MDR at probably A or A#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGfBfFdUo9k

Madurai Mani sang at higher pitches

Balamurali was mostly at C

Women voices are much more interesting and I shall write in the evening

Ganesh_mourthy

By the by , is there a way to add a small self recorded sound clip here. It will be easier to explain some sounds and pitches . How to do that here?

[RSR]

ref-p-26
Sri.Ganesh
Sir, Thank you. WCM has definite , fixed and quantified frequency values for its notes. though @Nick H had mentioned in another thread on Sruthi, that there too the 'basic-sruthi' frequenncy can be altered. .
.
Though our traditional artisans, had no technology aid, for ascertaining the frequency of a note, in the days of Govinda Dikshitar, all the Saraswathi VeeNas, have fixed frequency for each fret. just like Harmonium. ..and like Esraj of HM. ...which is a better example for this context, rather than the fretless violin or saarangi.
.
{On a bit more reflection, I concur that the frets determine the ;relative' frequency ratio only and the basic frequency depends on tuning of the strings . You are right there. But, all the VeeNas have ALMOST the same standard basic frequency - as pre-tuned by the craftsman. What is the frequency ? how did they meaure it?
.
To the best of my knowledge, the absolute frequency of 'sa' in CM or HM instrument , is not quantified in our musical traditions. We talk about the ratio only. My doubt is 'what is the absolute value of the 'sa' in either harmonium or VeeNa? Does it correspond exactly with the WCM counterparts? Though, we can sense the difference between MDR and GNB, I feel that it is just relative and subjective feeling. I need further clarification in these aspects. Pardon me for taking up your time and labour. .. @Sachi_R Sachi Sir, has rightly sensed the direction of my queries as being related to synthesized music.

[RSR]

..
ref-p-19
@arasi
Respected Madam,
Very perceptive post. , rekindling memories of some classics of Lata of 1955-1965. ..especially three songs of Lata mentioned by you.
.
'prabhu thero Naam' , a very fine song, set to music by JAIDEV, in Humdono. The bajan -type lyrics, raagam...haunting melody.. still wondering about it after so many decades. Jaidev was an assistant to SDBurman and had learnt classical music under Ali Akbar Khan.
It shows....It sounds very much like Aabheri, of a very special lovely tune type. ..The ragam is mentioned as 'Dhani'. in the web...To me it sounds much like 'jagajjanani' by MMD, and even like 'enta nerchina' by DKP.
https://lyrics.is/hindi/prabhu-tero-naa ... shkar.html
===
..The second song brought back into focus by you, is 'jaago mohan pyare.jaago ' in Jagthe Raho....music by Salil Chowdry. I am told that it is in some ragam common to HM and CM . The tune for the stanzas is soul-touching. ...said to be Hindusthani Bhairav, not Bhairavi.
..
The third mentioned by you, un-erringly spot-on , a nice song. 'hey maalik thaerae bandhe hum' in Do Ankhen Baarah haath'.
.
The three songs mentioned by you are all devotional in nature and were hits in those times. Was the tune set by Vasanth Desai?

Thank you for reminding me of the gems , in theme and tune and rendering.

[ganesh_mourthy]

RSR

You once told me to come off that "sir" , and now you make me feel uncomfortable . Just address me as Ganesh.

By the by , that pitch difference of MDR and GNB is not subjective but very definitive. Then why would the Tanpura Tampura pitches are changed for each of the singers? I don't understand what you mean by subjective. By the by , this short and crisp writing style may lend a feeling of being curt sometimes. It is not so really. I respect you patiently asking and We all learn through such a discussion. ...
I will get back when I find time this evening...

[Sachi_R]

RSR sir,
The western music system has adopted the equitempered scale with specified frequencies for each note/key of the piano. The harmonium is a mimic of that. They follow a strict standard.

[arasi]

RSR,
I am just Arasi (echoing Ganesh)...
Thank you for concurring on the beauty of those songs. jAgO mOhan pyArE--Raj Kapoor's film jAgtE rahO, and so Shankar and Jaikishan.
Let's not forget all the sweetness she brought to duets (how many of them!) with Rafi, Mukesh and others...

[ganesh_mourthy]

.
For any vocalist, the choice of the basic-aadhaar sruthi, is his/her option. For lady-singers, most of them can choose this 'basic-key' at a higher key than most male-vocalists. Choosing a higher key as basic and yet traversing 'pa' of low octave, through the normal-middle octave and reaching upto 'pa' of the higher octave is the usual range. Instruments of course, may cover greater range.
.
Some renowned Lady artistes can choose a higher key , habitually and yet cover the range with pitch-purity.
.
Thus understood, NCV has a higher natural base pitch than Smt.MS and (blasphemy.)..Lata can do that at even a higher base-pitch. and execute all nuances. CM does not need that as it is based on kruthis. but film music may utilize such great high pitch and range as in HM.
.
The image provided by Sri.Ganes is very useful in understanding the concept of 'timbre'. ..100 per cent in agreement. But if we want to illustrate the concept of 'timbre', it should be done with examples having the same 'base-pitch'.
.
Let us assume that the 'normal' 'sa' of a standard harmonium is chosen as the 'base-pitch'. After this,, all the vocalists can render any
kruthi for that base-pitch. If we can record the frequency variations of each and carry-out an analysis, that would indicate the timbre. of each voice. Illustration then should be based on the same-base pitch for each vocalist.
.
. Lata is said to have sung around 20,000 songs over many decades. Even the best of CM lady vocalists , including the venerable Smt.MS has not sung so many songs of different ranges and speeds and such. The criteria are entirely different. ..each supreme in their chosen domain. But, could not Lata have sung the same kruthis and songs as Smt.MS ? i think, she could have but the timbre would have been unsuitable ,artificial and superfluous for CM kruthi rendering. That applies to all the other lady-film-vocalists , being mentioned. Truth to tell, there are some who consider 'Jikki's rendering of the zindagi usiki' song's thamizh variant in the film 'kaavery' ('chinthai Noyum ') as even better than that of Lata. ..not in my opinion.
--
But, it is a grave error to consider any film song sans its original orchestration In fact, in many of the classics of 'the golden period' of Hindi Film music- by commonly understood yardstick- 30 percent of the greatness of the song is due to the tune, orchestration and interludes. And given the wonderful ragas and misra-ragas of HM, the best of Lata would naturally be better than the best of other regions. Who knows? The South may yet give us some young lady-artiste, and suitable composer to compete with the vintage.

On your idea about the option of choosing the pitch, rather than option, it is a matter of comfort or malleability of the voice . Usually, the guru guides the student and when you can comfortably go from lower pa to upper pa ( two octaves) that is your ideal shruti by definition. You cannot do that in all pitches. Just go one higher or lower than what you feel is ideal and you will see the difficulty .

The female singers will have shruti higher than males as a natural characteristics of their voices. Children, both male and female, will have higher shrutis even as they talk. Therefore the female singers will choose comfortably at between 4 and 6. Nithyashree and Radha Jayalakshmi sing at 6.

The female playback singers did not have a choice. They have to sing one octave above the male singers to sing a duet. Therefore if Rafi sings 1 kattai Lata also has to choose 1 kattai. This was probably the reason for such a voice - to start straight away from the head voice. They have to adjust the tonal quality or timbre a bit to do that. It is differently modified and trained voice , in order to bring out the flavor of cinema music. And when the same heroine cannot sing 5 kattais lower than the duet , in another 5 min as a solo and that is going to sound awkward. And hence they stick to that kind of thinner sharper pitch.

But if you think that MS cannot do that type of dulcet voice ( I am happy she never did) , she of course could have. And Lata could have also sang from the chest voice. But that so called dulcet voice does not have universal appeal, though it conquered the indian hearts slowly. Strictly speaking I find MS voice sweeter from a musical point of view. Lata's is differently sweet from a different genre. I have had music rapport with a lot of westerners , both connoisseurs and performing artistes. As a curiousity , when I throw in different voices to them , they are receptive to MS kinda voices but they find the female playback singers voice unappealing. Musically , it is that sharp and cooing it is. This is just to explain how well we have received that thin voices over the years and find them to be the epitome of sweetness. It is all about ideas which we slowly imbibe.

But , if you think that Lata or any female singers playback singers can comfortably sing the upper pa at perfect shruti , yes they can sing it in shruti , but neither comfortable to sing nor pleasing to the ears. Even just close to D the voice gets so shrill that it is not that appealing. You do not hear that many songs where the female singers hover with lyrics beyond E. It is usually a fleeting touch . This is where, as a rare exception (this is a very unbiased music interpretation and I do not belong to this time period) I find P.S to be very gifted. I have listened to her comfortably touching G and sometimes very comfortably the upper A ,for a second, without going shrill. (I can find you the songs if you are curious just for academics.) This is a balanced voice, resonating and rounded though high at pitch. I have not heard anyone else doing that without going uncomfortably shrill, neither Lata nor Janaki.

You citing Lata vs Jikki is a perfect example here. I listened to it. The pitch is the same. But, Jikki's voice is more rounded and resonating and hence more appealing. But hardwired Lata fans might say, no one can even cough as sweet as Lata. I think you are confusing pitch with timbre. When MS sings in madhyama shruti , she would sing close to female playback singers' voices in pitch, yet the voice is a class apart.

With the advent and popularity of film music young girls croon automatically adapting to female playback singing voice and the CM or HM teachers usually will dissuade them from doing so.

Here is a clip to understand how female playback singers sound beyond E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiIONeocWwU

And Hindustani female singers do not sing in very high pitches like the playback singers. Exceptions were some like Parveen sultana and Kishori Amonkar who were singing in A I think , yet that is lower than filmy sounds. And the range that Parveen Sultana could touch and hover .. I have heard her sing 3 and a half octaves. Devilishly amazing.

I will continue ...

PS - This is an educated musical opinion, with pitch and sound sensitivity that you develop over years of playing instruments and listening to various genres of music. I have a huge collection of Lata that I listen time and again as much as I listen to an MS or Ilayaraja .I am not against any Lata, MS or SJ.. It is just to make you understand.

Ganesh_mourthy

[RSR]

@ganesh_mourthy
ref-p-32
-----
Sri. Ganesh,
It must have taken a lot of time to type the post. Thank you.
.
@Sachi_R has given link to a very nice wiki on frequency standards in WCM. I found that ,clinching the issue so far as harmonium keys are concerned.
.
My specific question was if we can follow the same base-frequency values in CM, when we speak of sruthi 'kattai's. and how without any measuring instrument, the creators of Saraswathii VeeNa create uniform instruments, pre-tuned to the harmonium-keyboard standard.
I am waiting for your guidance.
.
And on what scientific measurable basis as a listener, one assigns the kattai ' value to Sri.MDR, and Sri. MMI. ?

..and 'nasality' is more a question of timbre than pitch. High pitch singing may be a bit shrill but need not be nasal. Any NCV or Lata song 'nasal' ? Not to my ears.
.
As comparison of the timbre of early MS (1940-1956 period)- (age 24-40) .and that of Lata ( 1950-1966 period-(age 20-36), depends on exact yardstick, of the sruthi-kattai chosen , it is important..
.
.I think, the voice and pitch of NCV is the highest that suits CM . Beyond that, it becomes 'filmy'.
.
None of the lady-vocalists of CM, could have sung some gems of Lata, so well. Similarly, Lata , though she could have sung any tune in classical CM kruthi with great finesse, still, could not have really captured the spirit of CM kruthis. but she could have challenged the established HM lady artistes, if she had chosen HM concert platform.
-
After all, her initial training was in HM classical .
-
Excuse me if I find, some of your statements, baffling, ..High pitch has nothing whatever to do with 'volume'. Sri.Chembai (born around 1895) had a booming voice for the reason cited by you...days of mike-less concerts--as in SGKittappa plays. and KBS. but was one of the finest exponents of CM.
-
One can sing a low-pitch song in low-volume too. Typical example is the old record of Smt.MS -(around 1942)-''vaNdinam muralum solai' in Todi.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... alum-soali
-
May I plead that in assessing an artiste's particular song, even in film music, we should forget and ignore things like the film-scene visuals, concert-occasion, and environment and such extraneous factors? Fortunately, most of our forum members listen to tapes and records only, of vintage music--- rightly so.
-
Lyrics are very important. and should have both literary beauty and thematic excellence. All artistes ,especially young lady artistes, have to be very choosy and careful in these aspects...Film world is a minefield.
.
I too used to have a fairly good collection of 78 rpm vintage records of the period 1940- 1970. and have tried my best to share them. I think, we have thousands of young cm and hm lovers in this forum , The trend-setters and gurus are all devotees of Smt.MS and even of Lata. So, their opinion is more relevant than that of foreigners.
.
I believe that some of the current CM lady-artistes are proceeding along the correct path to win an all-India audience, among 'classical' music lovers of the present generation. It is more a question of lack of exposure to the vintage classics. if students are falling prey to jazz...
.
.i wish that they win their All-India public-following, more by concert and album route than the present-day 'maaya maan' of Film world. I scrupulously avoid names of any artiste after 1970..to avoid controversy. I am sure, you would understand.
.
As you claim, your sensibility is the result of years of exposure to good music and even actual practice through some instrument like violin. .. Mine is also due to exactly 75 years of exposure to the music of Smt. MS , Smt DKP and Smt.NCV. at their respective best as also of Lata. I am just trying to find out why the great music, great literature and great films of my period , leave so many of the present generation, cold and unmoved. ... there is a definite mental block. Why?
-.
You can share the song title lines of Smt.Susheela and the name the film. We can search for them and listen. *( .preferably from very early years please. Allow for 'generation gap'.)

Thank you for your patience.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Ok Let me put it briefly this time.

There is a difference between preferences and educated observation. For a healthy discussion, you have to "kill your darlings" and that is what I did.

Well , just merely increasing the pitch does not bring the "filmy voice" and just two more pitches than NCV does not mean filmy voice. I am sure you have to bring out a different tonal quality.

Let me give you interesting details here.
Many of the younger lot of singers are also trained in carnatic and hindustani music and some also in western style of music.
But when they sing for competitions for film music they sing in amazing filmy voice texture at a different pitch . Therefore it is two pitches with two entirely different modulations. And they pull off quite well. I have observed this many times in the recent years and younger lots in my very neighbourhood learning carnatic often sing a filmy song with a different voice and texture and pitch. But , their teachers would urge them not to do so . Therefore it is also about training your voice. Yes there are some voices which leans more towards film easily but they can comfortably sing a lower pitch carnatic too.

Here is a sample for you , from Bombay Jayashree for your consumption only and I know you will not rejoice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WivWzcPP4b0

It is higher pitch than her usual pitch but she is not changing the texture and hence it may not fall into the filmy category.

What was the pitch of NCV ? Could you post a link please especially of a high pitch one? I have not heard enough to vividly recall the pitch. Tje highest I have heard so far is Radha Jayalakshmi and Nithyashree .

Therefore It is a certain timbre and texture that paved way to later voices that we hear now. Lata kind of tried and succeeded in early 50's and it was the same voice texture you heard down-south in Kannada malayalam Tamil and Telugu from Mid 50's through the voices of P.S and S.J . P Susheela and S Janaki have both mentioned that they were singing Lata's hits in orchestra and auditioning for recognition and they say that with humility. Hence a great amount of credit goes to Lata.

About how they set the standard at a time before the advent of technology for pitches, I am ignoramus.

By the by RSR sir ... please scrap off that Sri from Ganesh . Are we not comfortable talking in a kinship style though we discuss and have opinions differently.

And also please mention the exact pitch rather than higher or lower..It helps to understand how you perceive.

Since you wished to listen ... Let me just post a song which was playing in the TV - that of P. Susheela.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kJm5268QTk

That MAARATTUM at 40s is all F note and comfort and strength in the voice at "aadattum thalai marandhu aadattum" - that is all around D . Hence I like the modulations . It is usually in the comfort zone that you can do all that modulations and since she has a wider comfort zone , there is more scope. I have not heard anyone in Film music doing that comfortably. Usually, they make the voice thinner to sing around such notes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj44dDXHd4M
And in that above song .. nenjam marappadhillaai"ii iii iiii " is all exactly at 1.57 and the following few seconds it is a spell bound G

Here is the exact link


https://youtu.be/Wj44dDXHd4M?t=114

Ganesh_mourthy

[RSR]

ref-p-34 by @ganesh_mourthy

"

What was the pitch of NCV ? Could you post a link please especially of a high pitch one? I have not heard enough to vividly recall the pitch. Tje highest I have heard so far is Radha Jayalakshmi and...

.."
-----
Since you asked. Here are two gems...both MD kruthis..which exemplify what I have in my mind.
-
Maayae thvam yaahi
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... tharangini
-
The same page has a record by Sri.MMI also. It may help as illustration of shruthi.
--------------------------------------------------------
saarasa dhaLaNayanaa
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... dhalakamaj
----------------------------------------------
Smt.MS , Smt.MLV have sung this kruthi. I am unable to locate at short notice. Smt.DKP has sung saarasadhaLa in a radio program wiith DKJ...There are threads for MS, DKP, NCV, MLV, and Radha-JAYALAKSHMII in this forum in musicians section.
--
May I request you to explore the site?
I feel that we are going off-topic...
----------------------------

" P Susheela and S Janaki have both mentioned that they were singing Lata's hits in orchestra and auditioning for recognition and they say that with humility. Hence a great amount of credit goes to Lata"

------------------------------------------------
Thank you. . Found that she had sung 'aRiyaap paruvamada' in Missiamma...1955..The film itself was very decent and nice. also a keerthana like song with LEELA. based on Thyagaraja Swamy's Andholika...'raaga sudha rasa'..the main was by LEELA however.
..
The best song in the film however was ' maayame Nan ariyaen' by Leela. It was really good.The music director was AM Raja. the singer.
The melody was excellent. Leela was a trained CM vocalist..I think, her guru was Chembai Swami.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Well , it is to do with the preconceived notion. The songs which were quite similar to carnatic and hindustani were not so appealing at least to me . It lacked the identity of film music. But the transition was slow to let people develop the taste. To hear carnatic and hindustani short songs I would rather listen to a cutchery. .there are quite plenty already I prefer music where the music directors could actually break away from Carnatic or Hindustani framework to give quality music. Because you have so beautiful krithis and elaborate singing through people like BMK, Bhimsen Jhoshi , MS , MLV , Parveen Sultana and many more bringing out the details of the raaga and music .. one may not always wish to listen to short and hurried version of the grandeur.

Later the cinema music developed it owns fine identity breaking away from the classical tradition and that is the charm of it. Most of the songs until 1955 might have been good but not much away from the traditional style - a stripped away version short version, but with better orchestration and recording - the reason why most of the songs were connected to some ragas , but failed to paint the beauty of the raga. It is only later that the film songs emerged with a different style.

For the same reason , Lata's voice was more curated, better and clearer after 1960.

Ganesh_mourthy

[RSR]

ref-p-36 by Ganesh @ganesh_mourthy
---
We can approach CM ( in my opinion, we should) from kruthi/keerthan angle, where the lyrics are very important. .Granted that basic tenet, there is no CM without kruthis of the great composers , The Trinity and their disciples of first generation like Manambuchavadii, second generation like Patnam and Maha Vaidhyanatha Sivan, third generation like Ramnad 'Poochi' Iyengar, Mysore Vasudeachar, and finally the fourth generation of composers like P.Sivan ..
.
The concert CM popularly known as ARI pattern rightly gives a minimum of 10 kruthis mostly from the Trinity, Swathi , GK Barathy, P Sivan..
All this has relevance to your comment on 'duration' of the song.
.

.
May I point out that the music of the Trinity has come to us solely as their kruthis and no one of those 1400 kruthis ( 700 by Thyagaraja, 500 by Sri.MD , about 200 by Shyama Sastry)and hundreds from Swathi and GKB and many other later day composers in their footsteps, ...takes more than 3.5 mins to render ?.
.
Surprisingly, it corresponds exactly to the duration of the song in one side of a 78 rpm record...3.5 minutes. All film songs are of that time duration.
.
....Manodharma sangeetham aspect has two kinds...namely, Raaga Aalapanai, kalpana swaram, chitta swaram, niraval ,pallavi, taanam but may I point out that these are not part of the kruthi legacy of the Trinity of CM. ...but rather the tradition of court-music and chamber-music...which does not bother about kruthis/lyrics at all.. . If we assert that only these aspects constitute the CM , actually it is a repudiation and rejection of the kruthi contributions of the Trinity .
.
This is more a characteristic of high-level HM but probably of
Indian classical music all over the country, before the advent of Persian influences, around 1300 AD, and the new direction given by Vyaasa Theertha and Purandaradasa. to counter the non-devotional music of alien - rulers ..
.
Indian Classical music also was court-bound and popular-play related. ..The play-related genre has morphed into film music of 20th century. ..and has taken more from the romantic-dance music of the Court both in its theme and emotions. which corresponds exactly with light-classical music of pada-varnams, jaavaLis, tillaanaa and such. And kindly note that The Trinity and earlier saint-poets like Purandaradasa and Badrachalam shunned and disapproved. of such light-classical music and did not compose any.
.
Let us take any of the great concerts in Music Academy of the 1955-1970 years being uploaded by Naadabrungha recently.. The uploads give detailed time stamp. from which we can see that most
of the songs have just 4 to 5 minutes duration. only ..allowing for short interval between two successive songs.
.
So, the concert pattern of CM follows this arrangement exactly for nearly a century now right from 1930. It is mostly kruthi-based, with raga elaboration for a few preceding the kruthi, . As a concession to the Court-tradition, there is an RTP. After the RTP, there are always, some songs which can be classified as 'light-classical'- such as virutthams, jaavaLis, tillaanaa, All these are of 4 mins duration only.
.
Supposing, we video-edit a CM concert , to this day, taking the kruthi-portions only, they would easily fit into a standard gramaphone record. ....if we leave out the kalpana swarams and chittaswarams.
.
So, an orthodox kruthi of the Trinity does not lose its value and greatness just because, it is sung without preceding raga elaboration and kalpanaswarams etc. Niraval can be done for a shortwhile. and there are a hundred of such great kruthis of Thyagaraja, Badrachalam, Sri.MD, as gramapphone records given by Smt.MS, Smt.DKP and Smt.NCV.. In my opinion , that is the way to correctly give our homage to the great composers.
.
Now consider the field of film music. They are in effect, based on the tradition of the lighter and popular face of Indian CLASSICAL (both CM and HM), They take the classical ragas and create new songs for various moods, including romantic and other human emotions.. They are similar in theme to dance-music in plays and dramas ,where percussion and orchestration , play a major part. [/color]
..
And the songs though based on classical ragas , are free to slightly break the grammar rules, in creating misra tunes. They give more importance to 'melody'' for 'jana-ranjakam'.
.
Such 'jana-ranjakam ' needs as much creativity as in orthodox compositions. ... Taking the compositions of the Trinity for reference, it appears that they have not used very popular ragas like 'Behag, Beemplas, Kaapi, Sindhubairavi, Bagesree, Paraj, Darbari, Jonpuri, Kamaaj, Jinjoothi and even KalyaaNI, much.
.
All these popular ragas are after-all, based on the ten non-vivadi parent-scales of MK scheme . out of 32 such.
.
That is the charm of Hindusthani and Hindi film tunes. My impression is that Smt.MS also gave many songs using the ten MK scales common to both CM and HM.
.
.
But, Smt.MS was bound by the limitations of the CM concert-circuit while Lata did not have any such constraints and was fortunate to draw on the stage-music traditions of Maratta plays. It may be mentioned that Smt.MS also had the good fortune to be trained by Maharashtrian Classical vocalist of repute . Pt.Naarayan Rao Vyas.
.
The legendary Film music composers of the early Lata decades , 1948-1968 made great contributions , creating a new genre strictly basing themselves on the emotive raga system of HM and adding lovely orchestration.
.
Kindly note that though they made use of so many Western musical instruments , they did NOT forsake their HM classical roots . It is not fusion music. It is just like the music of AKC Natarajan in Clarinet,
Kadri in Saxophone, Srinivas in Mandolin, ...orthodox music in western instruments.
.
The common ground of MS and Lata classics is their rendition of HM based tunes.

I am trying to locate clips in public domain of 'abangs' rendered by Lata. just after 1970. They sure will be enchanting.

.

[ganesh_mourthy]

I am looking forward to hearing to it . ...

[RSR]

ref-p38
Ganesh (@ganesh_mourthy
especially, the second song
Abhang Tukayache | Lata Mangeshkar | Marathi Devotional Songs | Vitthal Geete | Sundar Te Dhyan
--------
Sri.Sachi (@Sachi_R may have heard these.
https://youtu.be/3zUecRlIV94
Saregama Marathi
Abhang Tukayache | Lata Mangeshkar | Marathi Devotional Songs | Vitthal Geete | Sundar Te Dhyan
--
01. Jai Jai Ramkrishna Hari
02. Sundar Te Dhyan
03. Vrukshavalli Aamha Soyari
04. Aga Karunakara
05. Kamodini Kay Jane To Parimal
06. Hachi Nem Aata Na Phire Maghari
07. Khel Mandiyala Valvanti Ghai
08. Bheti Lagi Jiva Lagalise Aas
09. Jethe Jato Tethe Tu Maza Sangati
10. Kanya Sasuryasi Jaye
11. Aanandache Dohi Anand Tarang
12. Hechi Daan Dega Deva
---------------------------------
saregama marathi upload
--------------------------------

[RSR]

‘Poochi’ Srinivasa Iyengar’s vast treasure of compositions - The …
https://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/ ... a-iyengars...
18/02/2022 · At The Music Academy, Ritha Rajan presented an interesting account of Ramanathapuram ‘Poochi’ Srinivasa Iyengar, an eminent musician-composer, one of the most......
=============================================
At the end of the discussion, Ritha Rajan said that the music of a classical dance number in the film 'Pardesi',, Indo-Soviet joint production - 1954, scripted by K.A.Abbas , was based on one of the compositions of Poochi Iyengar. (!)
Lata was 24 then, as MS was in 1940 (' Sakunthalai').
The song was by Lata and music was by Anil Biswas.
@arasi Madam, may like the dance and music. It sounded like some 'Behag' to me. More information with the tube link is given at
https://sites.google.com/site/decadesba ... anilbiswas
Would be thankful for exact raga information

[arasi]

Indeed! All of the 'nAdru tIm tana dIranA', and then built up on it of course, without behAg losing its essence. After all, it's their rAgA! How lovely Latha sounds, and Padmini doing her stuff to the letter!And as for the sweet 'pUchi', how majestically he could deal with hefty ghana rAgams and venture into 'vaDakathi' (north of the border) rAgams too!

Thank you By the way, not a madam then--only a young girl, and still just Arasi, please.

I do not recollect seeing the movie (it's their pathar kA phUl that made an impression on me--a color film fresh and first (?)from Russia).

As for the abhangs--what a cache! I listened to a few. Sweet originals, not yet popular on the CM stage (just here and there in the nAma sankIrtanam circuit?).

[RSR]

@ganesh_mourthy
Despite the grand 'chandrsekhara' by Aalathur brothers, the ragam is considered to be a bit 'infra-', though it is immensely intriguing . and HM musicians can elaborate on the raga much.
.
Smt.MLV says she learned how to sing this raaga from Bade Ghulam Ali Khan. and she has tuned two famous compositions of Purandaradasa in this melody.
-
From Smt.MS, we have the famous song, 'Aanandham en solvenae' in film Sakunthalai. The music director was Thuraiyur Rajagopala Sarma. possibly assisted by KamaldasGupta. That was all in 1940 and Smt.MS was 24 then. Listen to the short piano flash. (after the piano flash, the music is unfortunately, hopeless...The fault of music director )....82 years back !

https://youtu.be/av50m-B4ol0
--
Now, let us listen to Lata. Film 'Anuradha', 1960. Lata was 30 then. The music director was Pt.RaviShankar. 'saaware saaware;, There is a vocal flash similar to the piano flash cited above.
https://youtu.be/364vdw96Su4
-
I have not heard such a lightning ..........(what do you call that in technical parlance of CM? ..not Niraval),from any CM vocalist in that raagam...MLV might have.
-
A good tune, should have different orchestration and song-tune for different stanzas...but in the same melody. . not a ragamaalikaa.
Very few songs, either in film or in concerts/ records have that merit.
Even with a divine singer like Lata, even Pt.Ravshankar is repeating the same tune in different stanzas.( ! )..
So much depends on the tunesmith!
-----
There are two songs by Lata , both tuned by CRamachandra, one in Yasmin and the other in Amardeep,, which best illustrate how any song should be tuned and sung!
Yasmin
.
mujphe iljaam
-
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rOCDKT ... zEVBg/view

--------------------------------
amardheep
.
mera man ka bawra panchi
.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fDd834 ... oq6bP/view
===============================================.

@arasi

Madam may have heard the songs and liked them.

[arasi]

Yes, I have, and have liked them. Still, 'nA umId hOkE bhi' for the various textures in the song, 'dhIre Se AjAre akhiyan me--both so different in emoting, one of angst and the other a lullaby.

Even light and lovely songs like 'jab dil ko satAyE gam, tU chED sakE sargam' filled us with joy. The liveliness in Ramchandra's music took on various shades, dependent on the mood and for Lata , working with him was very good training ground for her to sing effectively in varying moods, I feel.

[RSR]

This is a bajan by Smt.MS, 1944, comparable to the 'Anuradha' song by Lata. in the same raagam. We do not know who composed the music. Variations in tune, without changing the raagam. Typical example.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... -guna-nahi

[arasi]

Amazing how you can bring the 'lost in memory songs' alive! Yes, when I first heard it, it sounded exotic, and the voice and tone lured you in. It became so popular that even 'rayil pichaikkArargaL (beggars on train) hopping from compartment to compartment swinging by the handrails on the outside of the train had this song in their repertoire. Corrupt in the lyrics but all the same, appealing when the urchins sang it, Coming to think of it, Sindhubhairavi arrived in tamizh nADu earlier than it did on the concert stage, I guess. In bhajanai venues too?

I am quite forgetful and cannot recall as you folks do, all that I relished as a youngster in film music also. I think Lata has sung many gems which elude memory until bright minds like yours bring them to light here.

With this song, the sAhitya given doesn't seem perfect. Sachi's translation is simply lovely. I am not suprised, Sachi!

I remember Cienu's mother telling me about the woman composer/holy person (?)who came to stay with the Sadasivams --how she would burst into songs which astonished young Radha. Since the name of the lyricist is not known, could it be her? Cienu might shed some light on this, I hope. I am merely guessing since the tune is in the popular mode and also because it happened very early in her career.

[RSR]

ref-p-45
@arasi
Madam, Is it Indra devi perhaps? She stayed at Kalki Gardens in 1945
and taught MS many bajans.
.
She was disciple of DilipKumar Roy, who taught Smt.MS and sang with her,
Bankim's 'Vandhe Maatharam ' and his father
Dwijedralal Roy''s 'Dhano Dhaanya Pushpa varran'.(
.a lovely poem as true of Bengal as mountain river banks of any state in India. ...especially, the Pothikai mountain area of Tenkaasi district. ..Kadayam village of Barathy's wife.), and Kodaikkaanal-Theni river bed, even today. )
.
The BEST from Smt.MS was from 1938 to 1953, (age 22 to 37). Nothing remains in CM concerts . Only a few dozen records to
give us an indication of her glorious jay-bird voice then, not choked by grammarian's reproving glares. ..The MS that we know from concerts is different. .
https://mssubbulakshmi-concerts.blogspot.com

gives her concerts from 1955 to 1975
Kindly have a look at your leisure.
-----
You had mentioned that soon after your shifting to England, around 1965, you had attended the Edinburgh concert of Smt.MS. It is not available in the web. Do you happen to have a tape of the concert? If you can share with Sri.Srinivasan and 'Naadabrungha' , they can upload it to youtube.
@cienu
-------------------------
Sindhubairavi is not at all a beggars' raagam...Here is MLV
.M.L.Vasanthakumari - Song 10 - Kalyana Gopalam- Sindu Bairavi -Khanda Chapu - Narayanatheerthar
-
https://youtu.be/sEvya87N3UM
--
It us just that our CM composers and vocalists just do not know how to explore its emotional richness. Film music composers knew better. as ALL the HM musicians.

HM Bairavi is a very moving raagam . ..if a raagam by itself, without the effect of lyrics, can portray emotions, it does it very well. ., the emotions of sorrow, anguish, longing, adoration, tragedy, and such.
-
Here is Lata -in Dekh Kabira Roya- a MadanMohan masterpiece-
-the same sentiment (as in 'maiyn nir guniya' bajan above.
translated by @Sachi_R very nicely )
thu pyar kare ya thukuraaye... .based on HM Bairavi

It may have been an import from HM AFTER the period of the Trinity.
Flute Mali has given an aalaap in the raagam. TNR 's thiruppukazh record is famous.
-----,
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i1EUbk ... 7umtC/view
-
(the drive audio player may be a bit sluggish ..... it works)
-

[arasi]

RSR,
It will take me a day or two to get to listen to all that you have brought here.

This is a quick post to answer your questions:

1: No. it wasn't the Edinburgh concert that we went to. It was in London at Fitzroy Square. You might know the dates to ascertain if it was before or after the Edinburgh Festival. I merely remember it as the one before the UN concert. No, we did not tape it since it's assumed that taping is not allowed. We took our little daughter though. It was allowed, we ascertained

2: No, I did not say that sindhubhairavi was a beggars only rAgA. It has popular appeal too and is catchy, that's all. HMB, AriyakuDi and many others have showcased the rAga by composing in it. Yes, how many pleasing pieces sung by the artistes you mention and more! Lata's jO tum tODO piA, main nAhi tODUn rE comes to mind too.

ViSwESwar darSan of Swati TirunAL was best sung in my experience at a house concert in the eighties, not by a CM artiste but by Jitendra Abhisheki. His singing bhasma ang, bhuj triSUl, ur mE saj nAg mAl...I hear it now as if he sang it yesterday. So very moving it was...

3: Thank you. Yes, Indra Devi it was.

[RSR]

ref-p-47
Madam, Please take your time but do listen to the Anuradha song..
I found from wiki that Jitendra Abisheki is a distant cousin of Lata. I suppose music runs in the family.
.
From the sindhubairavi kruthi of Swathi ThiruNaaL , i suppose, the raagam was known in the South and the Trinity avoided it. There is an MLV rendition in the web.

[RSR]

HAMSADHWANI
==========
'aruL purivaay karuNaik kadalae' - lyrics by Suddhananda Bharathy
-introduced by Smt.MS during the Thamizh isai years 1945-1950.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... uikkadalae
-------------------------------
Here follows a film tune , by CRamachandra- sung by Lata and Asha.,in the same raagam. with fine instrument interlude.
Film - Sharada- 1957
----
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Oh9fcw ... R7RIp/view

[arasi]

RSR,
I heard that pleasing song from Anuradha. Then I recalled more songs, one being prabhu tErO nAm. Wanted to know who the music director was. Jaidev. I wasn't familiar with the name. Then I found out that he tuned the songs for humdOnO. How many lovely tunes there! Why didn't I know him? Well, I also find out that Latha thought very highly of him.

Ganeshmourthy,
Your viewpoint--that in later years Latha sounded even better seems valid. I thought the songs in that film were exceptional. The film was made in 1960. Nanda 'singing' that and allA tErO nAm, Ishwar tErO nAm, sabkO sanmati dE bhagwAn. The film was made in 1960-just a few years before I left India. What all I heard after that were not all the songs that you could hear. For me, it was from taped music and exchanges (so, rather limited).

As for Jaidev who had just started, I see that he did not get his due in fame in spite of getting three national awards (Kalyanji Anandji award). Even there, Illayaraja and Rahman topped him by getting more. It would be nice if you can bring gems from Jaidev's music.

RSR,
Yes, aruL purivAi karuNaik kaDalE by Suddhananda Bharathi is a super song: aruNOdayam pOl Atma SAnthiyum aRivuNmai anbum, tiruvum tharuvAi. Whenever I was asked to sing an invocation song, I would sing Subrahmanya Bharathi's songs. For a change, this was the only song I loved to sing! MSS sang it with abandon and the effect of it on me was emotional. That and hari tum harO which also was in the cache of my lowly prArthanai gItams list!