Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

RSR,
I heard that pleasing song. Then I recalled more songs, one being prabhu tErO nAm. Wanted to know who the music director was. Jaidev. I wasn't familiar with the name. Then I found out that he tuned the songs for humdOnO. How many lovely tunes there! Why didn't I know him? Well, I also find out that Latha thought very highly of him.

Ganeshmourthy,
Your viewpoint--that in later years Latha sounded even better seems valid. I thought the songs in that film were exceptional. The film was made in 1960. Nanda 'singing' that and allA tErO nAm, Ishwar tErO nAm, sabkO sanmati dE bhagwAn. The film was made in 1960-just a few years before I left India. What all I heard after that were not all the songs that you could hear. For me, it was from taped music and exchanges (so, rather limited).

As for Jaidev who had just started, I see that he did not get his due in fame in spite of getting three national awards (Kalyanji Anandji award). Even there, Illayaraja and Rahman topped him by getting more. It would be nice if you can bring gems from Jaidev's music.

RSR,
Yes, aruL purivAi karuNaik kaDalE by Suddhananda Bharathi is a super song: aruNOdayam pOl Atma SAnthiyum aRivuNmai anbum, tiruvum tharuvAi. Whenever I was asked to sing an invocation song, I would sing Subrahmanya Bharathi's songs. For a change, this was the only song I loved to sing! MSS sang it with abandon and the effect of it on me was emotional. That and hari tum harO which also was in the cache of my lowly prArthanai gItams list!

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

The duet in Sharada does not sound like hamsadhwani to me...

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by thenpaanan »

RSR wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 19:07 This is a bajan by Smt.MS, 1944, comparable to the 'Anuradha' song by Lata. in the same raagam. We do not know who composed the music. Variations in tune, without changing the raagam. Typical example.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... -guna-nahi
Wow. The voice timbre here is quite distinct from the MSS we know and love (though shades of this particular way of singing come through in the later Hindi bhajans as well, but not the kritis). Thanks for sharing. Do we know the lyricist?

-T

ganesh_mourthy
Posts: 1372
Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

RSR wrote: 07 Mar 2022, 15:26 HAMSADHWANI
==========
'aruL purivaay karuNaik kadalae' - lyrics by Suddhananda Bharathy
-introduced by Smt.MS during the Thamizh isai years 1945-1950.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... uikkadalae
-------------------------------
Here follows a film tune , by CRamachandra- sung by Lata and Asha.,in the same raagam. with fine instrument interlude.
Film - Sharada- 1957
----
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Oh9fcw ... R7RIp/view
I find it really hard to decipher ragas of songs in cinema even in the olden days. I think it is even wrong to do so and I do not think the musicians will not have a raga in mind, because it will restrict them in their free flow. I never try to decipher raagas in film music and it greatly restricts the enjoyment part and there is no grammar to adhere to for film music. except for pitch and scale and harmony.
RSR , everytime you quote a raaga for each of the songs I really am wondering how you do it in the absence of a grammer related to the raagam . Even finding the pitch of the song is difficult unless you try to focus and there is an absence of aadhaara Sa and drone . If at all anything you can do is make out the notes with the help of relative pitch . And In this Lata sings N3 N2 and there are continuously different notes and you can place under many raagas for film music. There is no pattern or sangathis..I am still wondering how you make out raagas?

And thenpannan I will get back on Jaidev music.

G_M

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

ref-p-54
Ganesh Mourthy
----
if your criteria are applied, so many of nice film songs of MMD, MKT, NCV , DKP and MS even, would lose their raga orientation. Your contention is definitely untenable. How do listeners identify the ragam even in a classical concert? It has nothing to do with base pitch, timbre and such. ..Every raaga has a pattern and it gets ingrained in our memory. When we hear another tune, which sounds similar, we group them together and store that in our cache. Then we ask people the name of the raagam. and tag it to the tune in our memory. We need not know, the MK, actual notes, sanchaaram and such. Not atall necessary to appreciate the tune. Very often, people with such 'kaeLvi Gnyaanam' only , are able to identify the raagam correctly. and reish the tune. When we attach a raaga name to a tune, of film song, it is just a 'fuzzy logic ' thing. ..
-
This is supposed to be one of the concepts in Machine Learning.
-
What you say about film music composers and singers is quite true. They did not choose the raagam and then compose the tune accordingly. Nonetheless, the tune falls within the spectrum of some raggam or other , may be a mixture -a misra.
-
I have been trying to fix the nearest taagam of all the songs in MS Hindi Meera. 60 percent done. Quite a few are very clear. llke yaadh aavae sindhubairavi, baso mere nainan me- yaman, muraLi mohana-Kafi, darasbina ragamalika- desh, bagesri paraj,- kunjanavana chadi- Misra maand, brundavana kunja bavan -pilu. IF they are 75 percent close, it is enough.
-
Why do we always tag the name of the raagam with a kruthi?
How do we correctly identify, single-kruthi ragas of Thyagaraja Swami? Almost un-erringly.

ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

deleted
Last edited by ganesh_mourthy on 08 Mar 2022, 22:04, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

ref-p-53
@thenpaanan Welcome. From your posts in the forum, I think, you are an admirer of HM classical and your children are being trained in HM. Nice thing....
-
As for 'maiyn nir guniya' song, neither the lyricist nor the composer is known...If it appeals to you, the other song in the same plate also may be liked by you
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... lan-ke-aaj

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

in continuation of p-55
---------------------
Each individual is unique and yet same. Each composition, each rendering, that too at a particular age and voice is unique.
It depends on the frequency response and conditioning of the listener,
also. The listener's mood also has a role...
-
Ganesh
====
@ganesh_mourthy
kindly note that your post -56 has been repeated... and so remove it.

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by thenpaanan »

RSR wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 19:15 [...]

As for 'maiyn nir guniya' song, neither the lyricist nor the composer is known...If it appeals to you, the other song in the same plate also may be liked by you
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... lan-ke-aaj
Ah, wonderful. The combination of the plainspoken but heart-pulling lyrics and the relatively unadorned plaintive singing in "rAma milana" raises the listener to new heights.

Not only is the achievement obvious but also the courage needed to make such mind-blowing music with utter simplicity. Getting kudos by presenting a complex piece well is a time-honored practice, but to buck that trend and take your chances with a simple piece of the highest class is something beyond.

-T

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

We have heard sweet Hindi songs by Smt.MS ,as plate music around 1946. when she was 30.
.
Here we have LATA in 1955-56 , singing the same tune in both Hindi and Thamizh versions of Urankatola..'Vaana ratham' in Thamizh.
.The music director was Naushad.
. https://youtu.be/i_PpCdclEJ0
.
The first half of the upload is Hindi and the second half is by Lata herself in Thamizh. Lata was then around 26 The prelude orchestration is worth noting and the raagam is Behag'. The second part of the upload has some nice images of Lata.
=============================================
============================================
Here we have a famous kruthi of Purandara Dsa, rendered in the same raagam by Smt.MSS.
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... e-badavanu
.
The page has transliteration by Sri.Lakshman Ragde (@Lakshman and translation by Sri.Sachi (@Sachi_R

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

There are two wonderful songs by Lata, 'RasikBalma' from ChoriChori (1956-Shankar Jaikishan) and
' Chaand phir niklaa' from Paying Guest(1957- S.D.Burman)

...Both the tunes are similar and said to be in the same melody-base ,'Bhoop-KalyaaN'.
-
https://sites.google.com/site/decadesba ... asikabalma
-
https://sites.google.com/site/decadesba ... hir-nikala
.===============================================
The CM counterpart is mentioned as Mohana-KalyaaNi. said to be introduced into CM by HMB. .
.
Dr.M.Radhakrishnan, the musicologist , has devoted a page for this rare CM raagam.
..
It is for experts to judge how far the Lata songs conform to the CM version.
https://www.drmradhakrishnan.com/post/r ... ha-kalyani
Dr.MR has given a clip by Madurai MaNi Iyer in the CM raga in his page.
@arasi madam may like these.
.
The songs are rendered by Lata brilliantly. and were justly famous in those years and later.

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

in continuation of p-60- songs by MS and Lata in Behag
---------------------------------------------------
Lata Mangeshkar- Film 'Jaanjar'- music by CRamachandra..lovely orchestration. and haunting melody....released in the same year as Anaarkali- 1954.. Lata was 24 then.
--
(sometime in 1970, I heard that tune in Radio Pakistan. After a week, I mentioned it to my younger brother at home and he too had listened then and was in rapture. ..Soon after, my younger cousin brother happened to visit us and first thing he asked was if we had heard that song in Radio Pak !)...subjective?environment?
https://youtu.be/iJqhmOQe8AM
aye pyar teri duniya
--------------------

Now comes the Niraval classic of Smt.MS 'Sukumaara ' in Sakunthalai (1940).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vX5p_u ... sp=sharing
--

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

This is a video-clip from the Fiim 'NewDelhi' - 1956. The first part is a pure classical dance - with background by MLVasanthakumari. .The dancer is Smt.Bali. At the end of the dance, there is a milli-second visual exchange between the dancer and Kishore. (@ganesh_mourthy . This is followed by a folk-jabi-style dance ...'muraLi bairan bayi'..said to be in HM Pilu raagam. sung by Lata . Very nice clip. Has everything, music, dance, acting....and Kishore is posing as a Tamilian to get accommodation.
https://youtu.be/Jt46ZsmqExw
--
Music direction - Shankar-Jaikishan
'arasi' madam may have some comments about the 'alaarippu' and ;nattuvaangam'

Ranganayaki
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 20 Feb 2022, 09:16 I think you are confusing pitch with timbre. When MS sings in madhyama shruti , she would sing close to female playback singers' voices in pitch, yet the voice is a class apart.
Timbre is quite a simple thing, I think. In French, “timbre” means stamp. Postal stamp, but also figuratively, just as in English. When you say, oh that piece of art has the artist’s stamp all over it, you are speaking of a set of characteristics that convince you that the work belongs to one artist and no one else. That’s what timbre is. Voice timbre is just the the set of features by which a discerning listener can tell whose voice it is. You need familiarity to speak of timbre. Identifying features.

And, hello, all!!😊🙏🏻

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

Hello, Ranganayaki :)

RSR,
I had completely forgotten New Delhi! Wasn't there some controversy about the placing of a pair of sandals on someone's head in that film?

MLV could have sung something not so repetitive with her lovely singing, I thought, but it ended very well. Vyjayanthi was the dream girl, a new star who had her classical training in dance too. Then her other dance to Latha's singing to boot.
Oh, those chappals on the head too, with Kishore Kumar!

Latha's song's start was just like her beautiful ajahu nA AyE bAlmA, sAvan bItA jai, hAyE. Wonder who the music director was for that song.

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

p-66
-----
Latha's song's start was just like her beautiful ajahu nA AyE bAlmA, sAvan bItA jai, hAyE. Wonder who the music director was for that song.
-
I had not heard that song.
I googled and found that it is a far better Pilu... a duet by Rafi and Suman. from 'saanj aur savera'. The music director was Shankar-Jaikishan...1964.
-----------------------------------------

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

Here is another semi-classical gem from Lata , tuned by MadanMohan.
Said to be HM Yaman-based tune. There is Jalatharang music and also Sitar interlude by Vilayath Khan.
The film is 'Bahana' - 1960
-
As a bonus , we have a lovely presentation .A real work of art -wonderful images of Lata.
upload by mastkalandr
2.96M subscribers
-------------------------
https://youtu.be/F3dO5PhhzGo
----------------------------------------------
raag yaman-based
------------------------
Song : Ja re badra bairi ja ..
Movie : Bahaana, 1960,
Singer : Lata Mangeshkar,
Lyricist :Rajinder Krishan,
Music Director : Madan Mohan,
----------------------
.========================================
Here is Smt.MS in Meera -Hindi versin-1947- age-31
Baso Mere Nainan me .....Yaman
translation by @Sachi_R
https://meera1947.blogspot.com/p/07.html

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

RSR,
Well, I found the song 'aja hu na AyE bAlmA'. You are right. It's not Lata. It's Suman Kalyanpur singing (a duet with Rafi). Shankar&Jaikishan again. Film: saanj aur savEra. She does sound quite a bit like Latha and I goofed when it came to recollecting the song.

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

ref-p-68
@arasi
Madam, It is a wonder that you remember those old songs still. , in spite of your so many cultural activities over six decades that too in alien environment...So, you write poetry, compose music for your poems, do translations, can speak and write many languages .. that much I knew - but you had formal music training and sing too! that was new facet....
As ShankaranK says in Thamizh, we cannot bring ourselves to adopt the American way of addressing people. ..All countries in Europe attach great importance to that. 'salutation' . Rightly. You surely would have read Barathy's letter to Mandayam Iyengar.. That is our culture. So, permit me to address you as Smt...'arasi'. and share your thoughts on the Bahana song and the video-presentation above.
--
@Ranganayaki Madam. Welcome! I may need raagam information for some songs to be shared in the forthcoming posts. - a rough guide will do.

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

I apologize for making a stance about how I should be addressed. It's a trivial matter. In England, my neighbor's children addressed one as Auntie or Mrs. So and so. When I first came to this country, I was surprised that the children called me the way their parents did, by my name. Cultural differences, yes. That's where human culture comes in. How they showed their affection or respect for me matters more. Oh, and my son-in-law of many years, though not from Bharath, addresses me the same way as my children do.

'Adjust' paNNik koLLudal', isaivAga iruthal'--getting adjusted, being agreeable--meant more in our culture in the old days--especially when it came to the females of the species. So, avargaLE and Madam are fine :)

As for my musical training in my childhood--formal, that is, I had none. kELvi gnAnam (music gained by listening to) helped. My curiosity helped. A musical environment did. I was equally interested in attending authors' speeches as I was with concerts--thanks to Kalki and to my uncle who knew many writers.

As for my memory with hindi film songs: You see, I was so happy listening to them, though CM was very much there around me, part of my growing up years. I was in the vicinity when B. Rajam Iyer taught my aunt and sister. Well, oppukku chappANi (a token learner?) I was at times, sitting with them for the lessons...

Back to the TWO BHARATH RATNAS now...

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

MEERA SONGS An Article by KALKI
from
KALKI WEEKLY (Dated October 28, 1945)


Gentle breeze is sweet, the fragrance of a new flower is sweet. Water is sweet. The stars that sparkle on the blue sky are sweet. God has granted us so many such gifts of joy. He has filled the world with beauty in Nature for us to forget the troubles we come across in life. Yet, not all of us have been granted that boon. Only some lucky ones seem to be able to appreciate the beauty of Nature. "What's the big deal about water and flowers? " (Kalki uses the word maNNangaTTi, a clod of earth in the deriders' words--may be, he subconsciously included hills and mountains to Nature's bounty there!).

* * *

Among the pleasures that God has granted the human kind, the loftiest is music. If music turns out to be of fine quality and is filled with feeling, the joy from it can be akin to intoxication and make the listeners forget themselves. One should first be fortunate enough to possess a cultivated taste for music and the ability to appreciate it. On listening to a number of songs from MSS, Mahatma Gandhi heartily blessed her by saying: I do not have any sangIta gnAna. Yet, how sweet your voice and songs sound to me!
What the Mahatma meant by sangIta gnAna was its important aspects--rAgA, tALA, the knowledge of them, the keen ability in knowing their subtle differences and the nuances in swara bhEdA-s. Only a few possess such qualities. Still, it's a good idea to cultivate the ability just to listen to good music and experience the joy of it.

It was perhaps some unfortunate persons Shakespeare had in mind when he exclaimed: do not trust a man who does not appreciate music--he might turn out to be fearless in committing cruel acts.

"The man that has no music in him
Nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds
Is fit for treason, stratagems and spoils;..........
Let no such man be trusted " (Merchant of Venice)

It doesn't mean we need to take this literally and interpret this in others who have no interest in music! We should just assume that Shakespeare thought poorly of those who didn't like music!

(More to come)

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

When you listen to the lisping voice of little Meera singing 'nanda bAlA, en maNALA', on HT No: 122, a large-sized music plate, you can visualize the child singing and dancing in front of the image of Krishna in her endearments and in her pleading with him. The background music gently soars, breaks into a new wave. Swelling even more, it makes it possible for us to imagine how Meera is now a fully grown woman, singing in front of us.

Thus, in 'murali mOhana' with its majestic kArvai-s and with that emotive pleading voice of hers, Meera sounds like the magic flute of Krishna.

On the reverse side of the plate, we surely feel as if we listen to bAla gOpAlA's sweet sounding flute again. As commanded by the RAnA, Meera walks towards his court, but she now hears the nectar-filled sounds of Krishna's flute. Forgetting herself, she runs to GiridhAri's temple. 'hE, harE dayAlA', she sings, her heart melting. Forgetting herself, she dances amid other bhakthAs.

The background music which punctuates the song hints at the fast dancing at the durbAr and the anger brewing in RanA's heart as he waits for Meera to appear.

How important is background music? How should it be orchestrated? This particular record is a fine example of that matter.
***

I mentioned earlier about the intoxicating element in music. I would add that beautiful tamizh also has that quality. If words in a song are well-composed, the results are quite rewarding (he is talking about his own work here). Tears flow, hard hearts melt. 'kATRinilE varum gItam' really does that:
nilA malarnda iravinil tenRAl kulAviDum nadiyil
nIla niRathu bAlakan oruvan kuzhal Udi ninRAn

To hear these beautiful lines in a sweet voice replete with bhAva would even melt a stony heart!

On the reverse side of this plate no: 18236, we hear what Meera sings on leaving the royal palace as a mendicant.
She sings 'maRainda kUNDilirundu viDudalai piRanda paRavai viraindOdudE'!
In such rare moments in drama, where sorrow blends with joy, one realizes that there is no rAgA better than khamas for it.
Last edited by arasi on 16 Mar 2022, 07:05, edited 2 times in total.

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

Dr. Pasupathy,
Could you kindly post the beautiful cover and the tamizh pages?

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

p-71.72.73
---------
'arasi' madam, Thank you for the translation.
A few more paras are pending.
Expecting them.

Kindly permit me to add it to my blog site
- .
Image
Wonderful . Thank you. I have taken the liberty of adding the beautiful photo and thamizh pages at (with Dr.Pas's permission)
https://meera1945.blogspot.com/2022/03/ ... -from.html
KALKI'S REVIEW OF MEERA-1945 SONGS FROM PASUPATHY 'S BLOG SITE
https://s-pasupathy.blogspot.com/2021/10/1957-294.html
@Pasupathy
---
All the great songs and lyrics are there in the same blog
meera1945.blogspot.com
--

a small correction... 'Nilaa malarntha iravinil
thendRal ulaaviduum '.
Last edited by RSR on 16 Mar 2022, 14:11, edited 3 times in total.

rajeshnat
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by rajeshnat »

RSR wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 16:13 ref-p-68
@arasi
Madam, It is a wonder that you remember those old songs still. , in spite of your so many cultural activities over six decades that too in alien environment...So, you write poetry, compose music for your poems, do translations, can speak and write many languages .. that much I knew - but you had formal music training and sing too! that was new facet....
RSR,
Arasi is an amalgamation of two big families of music , one is the renaissance vidwan V V Sadagopan and the other is the extraordinary vaggeyakkara Ambujam Krishna , these two must be her musical appa and musical amma sthanam. She has composed around 400 and they stand in the extended timestamp of Ambujam Krishna and Sadagopan.

Much of her musical psyche has been shaped by the families and definitely honed and perfected much later and curated by many inclusive of her late husband Krishnan .Few vidwans and vidushis who have polished her tune Like Neela Ramgopal, Suryaprakash and Gayatri Girish have done great work to make it available to the market .

One has to also mention she has the privilege of working with 3 generations of extraordinary musical genes that went from the first generation Ananthalakshmi Sadagopan ,second generation Sujatha Vijayaraghavan and third generation Sumitra Nitin.(I may have missed few I am sorry if i did, million apologies)

Check this vaggeyakkara arasi thread, quite a lot of posts,. Since you only joined the forum much later , you can see few posts starting with 1 and also few posts where arasi has given her insights.

viewtopic.php?t=25450

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

p-75
@Rajesh Yes. Thank you for the info. Like you, I too wish that she wrote an autobiographical series . I know that she is related to VVSadagopan and has connections with TVS family's Gandhian lady. Above all, I am all for reminiscences of those of the great generation.
.
..She is unique in this thread as there are very few who had the good fortune to be regular listeners of great HINDI film songs of Lata from 1948 to 1964, and appreciate them ..I surmise that she left for England, in that year.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by Ranganayaki »

arasi wrote: 14 Mar 2022, 09:54 Hello, Ranganayaki :)
RSR wrote: 15 Mar 2022, 16:13
--
@Ranganayaki Madam. Welcome! I may need raagam information for some songs to be shared in the forthcoming posts. - a rough guide will do.
Hi, Arasi, so glad to find you back here 😊🙏🏻🌷

Thank you, RSR! 😊And I’ll be glad to share info if I can. Thanks.

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

(Read from #71 where this article by KALKI begins)

The song 'enadu uLLamE, niRaindadinba veLLamE' (My heart is flooded with joy), as if it is infused with the essence of rAgA chenchuruTTi can be heard on one side of record no 18253.
The reverse features brindAvana gItam in sindhu bhairavi. They vie with each other in excellence.

She traverses woods, hills and the desert, arrives at Brindavan and recollects the wonders Nanda kumara has wrought in that holy spot. She is spellbound with the images of him. Longing to experience such bliss herself, she sings:

mAninam nANiDum mangayarODu
mAtavathOrum mayangiDumARu
tEnin inithiDum tInguzhal Udi
dEVarin mAniDar mElenac cheidAn

(With such beautiful women putting the deer to shame, enchanting even the holy sages, blowing nectar-sweet music on his flute, he made us humans feel as if we were more fortunate than the dEvAs)

Why wouldn't anyone, seeing the sweetness in tamizh, in music and rasanA not be enchanted by this!
* * *

What Meera sang pouring her heart out while waiting for the temple doors to open, you can hear on the large disc 11T121. While listening to it, we picture the last scene in the film. When Sri. Pulla Reddy officiated in releasing the film, he said: I haven't seen anything like this before where every fine aspect of making a film has come to the fore.
You can say that about the music in this film too.

kaDalil kuLithoru mutheDuthEn
kai nazhuva viDuvAyO? karuNaiyE puriyAyO?

(I dove into the sea and found a pearl
Would you let me lose it?)

These lines of Papanasam Sivan have reached the very limits of poetic prowess.

On the flip side, we hear 'charAcharam' sung in a different mood.

pAda malar paDindiDum vaNDAi
nAdanE unnisai pADuvEn kaNDAi

(How I would sing your praise like a bee
Which seeks the nectar of your lotus feet!)

This music reverberates in you like the sound of a bee.

Meera travels through a desert on the back of a camel.

'engum niRAindAyE, inRu
engu maRaindAyO? ' she sings.

The melody fits the scene perfectly. You hear in the background, music unfolding the impact of an endless desert and the slow progress of the caravan in melodic sounds.
On the reverse of this N18254 plate, you find 'arangA', 'yadu nandanA', chorus music with highlights of Meera joining them here and there.
* * *

The acme of all of Meera's singing occurs when she sings from the top of a hill.
'uDal uruga' (melting away) sung in a rAgamAlikA of pUrvi kalyANi, sahAna and mAyA mAlava gowLa. It is sung in such a way to move the listener soulfully: without excessive AlApana, sangathis and ornamentation. Feelings alone dominate the singing.
Sailing from pUrvi kalyANi to sahAna, the start of MM gowLa with the line iDar kaDalil gives one goosebumps.

The other side of this N 18235 record features 'giridhara gOpAlA' and mOhanam reaches the heights of its majesty there.

"kaNNA, en karuNaik kaDalE, inda Ezhaiyaik kAPPATRa vishathai nI uTkoNDAyO? (did you partake of the venom to rescue this poor woman?) she asks. Looking at the image of GiridhAri she sings: maRavEnE ennALilumE (I will not forget this ever). This is in the rAgA paras. In this record N 18257, two additional verses to the song can be heard. On the reverse, the chorus sings: lIlaigaL seivAnE, illustrating how Meera's music spreads all over the land.

The sages who go to Vaikunta to have a darshan of Vishnu are shocked not to find him there. Indra, Chandra, Surya and other celestials go in search of him and finally find him in Gokula, eating butter churned by the gopis at a humble abode of yAdavAs. That is described in the song:
mIrA idayam kOil koNDAn
mILA aDimai koNDAN

You hear the nAda pravAha here which flows like a mountain cascade.

Meera plates have been released. The only problem we have is to choose among them. As you hear them, each one tsounds to be the best.

The sound recording is superb. Smt. MSS's voice is captured in its natural sweetness.

We have to thank the HMV company for bringing a musical feast like this to us in Tamizh nadu.

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

It was a bit odd at first , seeing Kalki mention each and every serial number of the records. As I typed on, I realized why. The records were expensive to buy even for those who had a gramophone. And this many records in one go--all they might have wanted to hear at home! After seeing the film, thy had to wait for AIR to play them much later, that too here and there. I don't know how many of the songs regular kachEri goers heard in a concert--not many is my guess.
Surely, people had their own favorites by then, and so, Kalki numbers each and every one of them for them to buy the one which has their favorite song!
I remember engum niRaindAyE and giridhara gOpAlA playing on the loudspeakers more than any other...kATRinilE varum gItam a bit later??
Thanks to the tea shops and cafes, they were heard widely...

Pasupathy
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by Pasupathy »

arasi wrote: 16 Mar 2022, 06:05 Dr. Pasupathy,
Could you kindly post the beautiful cover and the tamizh pages?
Thanks, Arasi. Here's the article in Tamil ( which actually appeared in 17 February 1946 issue and the beautiful cover of the earlier Kalki issue)
http://s-pasupathy.blogspot.com/2021/10/1957-294.html

I may add that --so far -- I have not been able to find a similar article dealing with the Hindi Meera songs of M.S.

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

Chali aaj gori piya ki nagariya--a fiine tune from 1964 film Premchand's Godan..music by Pt.Ravishankar , sung by Lata. --possibly a variant of CM Kamaaj....wonderful lyrics. about the sadness of the bride and her parents, when she leaves her home , for her husband's place. after marriage

https://youtu.be/fy6LISSSri0

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

A great song by Smt.MS, in the same raaga Kamaaj, just two minutes
lovely Niravals
1945. ----
https://meera1945.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_48.html

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

Now, I have trouble pinpointing Khamas in film tunes. Behag freely enters hand in hand.
Ranganayaki might help here.

Munimji, in the fifties. S.D.Burman was a new name for us. The song? Ankh khultE hi tum chip gayE hO (vOh) kahAn? Hope it isn't in an entirely different rAgA!

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Hello Arasi

Khamaj of HM and Khamaas of Carnatic are different. The katkas and murkiyan used in khamaj are so different from our "karpooram naarumO"

Ranganayaki
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by Ranganayaki »

arasi wrote: 17 Mar 2022, 22:52 Now, I have trouble pinpointing Khamas in film tunes. Behag freely enters hand in hand.
Ranganayaki might help here.
Was that in response to post #82 by RSR with a link to a song which he said was in khamas/ khamaj? That doesn’t sound like khamas to me either, much more like Harikambhoji.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 07:29 Hello Arasi

Khamaj of HM and Khamaas of Carnatic are different.
In Hindustani, khamaj is the name of a thaat and a raga. I understand that a Thaat is a conceptual scale and is never actually sung. The scale of the Khamaj thaat is exactly that of HariKambhoji. Hindustani Raag Khamaj belongs to the Khamaj thaat and it’s notes are SGMPDNS in the ascent (like Bahudhari) and all 7 notes in the descent.
ganesh_mourthy wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 07:29
The katkas and murkiyan used in khamaj are so different from our "karpooram naarumO"
Ganesh_Mourthy, would love it if you would explain those terms you’ve used there. 🙏🏻

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

p-85
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... i-thanilae
Harikaambodhi.
---
@Ranganayaki
Madam, I tend to agree with you. but the difference between Harikambodhi and CM kamaaj , even is too minute. ..and the Godaan song is based on HM Kammaj.
-
However, after humming the Godaan song , I ended up in Apadhooeu javaLI by Maali

https://sites.google.com/site/hindustha ... ome/kamaaj

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

Image

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Here is the link to the "murkhis" .. As we broadly call gamakams for different oscillations... Murkhi can be akin to a type of their gamakams.
https://youtu.be/bENpt8_YVHY


And here is the katkas
https://youtu.be/MvG_TzobD2s

This is why a bilawal that and our shankarabharanam .. their yaman our kalyani all sounds so different. This is why "my hearts will go on " in a major scale similar to our shankara bharanam sounds so different. Whenever RSR points out a song with ragas and ragams comparison , I could hear only the scale and I am unable to compare it to CM and HM ragams because the film songs are more of plain notes by and large and it has its own appeal . I hope you get my point.

Kamaaj has both Ni with different gamaks and that is enough to give it a completely different flavour. When you are playing an instrument and follow the songs you can tell to what level one is extending the notes , the gimmicks done to resemble the original and many things. The ragas are set in your mind and just a few seconds are enough to decipher. Hypersesitivity has its own problem.

GM

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

https://youtu.be/N7a_GTrK-O8

Not all songs have a composition as straightforward as this. Indisputably raagams with their stamps all over. If you have a song where you go on disputing and guessing and shades of many ragams , it is better to see it as a scale and enjoy it as a composition in its own inherent beauty.

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

Just for my own reference.. My pet theme is that the 72 MK is just a mathematical approach. .36 scales with M1 and another 32 scales with M2. .There are just 16 non-vivadi scales in M1 set and another 16 non-vivadhi scales in M2 set.
.
The wonder of HM is that though they have many gharanas, they have instinctively and traditionally over many centuries from 1300 AD--the Sultanate emergence in Gangetic plain and surrounding areas,
have used just ten of the 32 non-vivadi MK scales and this is the main reason why HM is more emotionally evocative.
http://karnatik.com/hcragatable.shtml
-
The ten MK scales adopted by them are

1) MaayaaMaaLavaGowLa----------Bairav
2) Harikambodhi ............................................Kamaaj
3) Karaharapriya................................................Kafi
4) Natabairavi Asavaeri
5) Shankarabaranam.....................................Bilawal
6) KalyaaNi ........................................................KalyaaN
7) Todi....................................................................Bairavi (not CM Bairavi)
8) PanthuvaraaLi ...........................................Poorvi
9) SubaPanthuvaraaLI...................................Todi
10) Gamanaasramam ............................ .Marwa
(PoorviKalyaaNi)
-----
-----------------------------------------------------
Let us for the moment, focus on the CM MK scales only.
I find that except for a few more non-vivadi MK like Shanmugapriya, Keerwani ..almost 90 percent of the kruthis are janyams of these ten scales. ( yes..yes... I do know about vivadis like VaraaLi and Naattai..they are exceptions)
--
I believe that even during the age of the Trinity, vivadi-meLas and their janyams were disapproved.
.
The secret of appeal of old Hindi songs was that they were all based on the HM thaats and so naturally, appealing to emotions.
--
HM Bairavi is NOT CM Sindhu bairavi. Actually, HINDI film songs in HM Bairavi are numerous and Shankar-Jaikishan tuned great many songs in that raagam. and its mild variants. but siindhubairavi in Hindi film songs was not used much. That is why the Anuradha song is so very special.
--
With just ten MK SCALES, HM has nearly 150 janya ragams , and misra varieties are officially approved like Boop-KalyAAN.
So, even for people trained in HM classical, it is very difficult to correctly identify the exact raagam in HM.
.
if so, it should be much more difficult to identify the base scale for a film song, where music directors feel free to mix ' scales even' for jana-ranjakathwam.

Is not Behag itself using both M1 and M2 ? ( though not as successive notes)
-
I request people trained in HM to correct me.. The following tunes are all based on HM Bairavi and these are NOT Sindhubaravi.
.
These tunes would appear as a mixture of Sindhubairavi with a touch of Jonpuri to CM listeners.
Aayi Aayi raath suhani -- Poonam
Aaaja Sanam ---Chori Chori
Bol re kathputli -- Kathputli
Chod gaye baalam - Barsat
Dheko Babu....Shararath
aji chali aao - Halagu
dil ki nazar se - duet - Anari
duniyawalon se - duet- Ujala

and many more SJ tunes.
and there is a fine duet by Lata and Rafi in Shola aur Shabnam
In popular websites, which try to give the raagam of film songs, and even in articles, these are all clubbed together as HM Bairavi. Misleading.
Last edited by RSR on 18 Mar 2022, 14:22, edited 1 time in total.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Why HIndustani raagams are more appealing than CM raagam? Well we are fed into believing that they are appealing. Why is French Italian cuising the most popular and appealing universally? It is the same logic, and to a period in the future only until the Chinese takes over the global influence and the world might see the chinese food to be the most sumptuous and classy of all. It is gaining popularity already.

There are 5 ragams in this song
https://youtu.be/N7a_GTrK-O8

khamas, begada, surutti, saveri , shanmukhapriya.. ( all carnatic flavour)

RSR, you can listen to them with an open mind and educate me how the HM raagams would exceed them in its appeal theoretically? ( appeal is a subjective term and popularity is gained through many factors , and never strictly adheres to merit)

This is can be taken as a reference song , composed and sung with a decent amount of adherence to raga grammar of carnatic. . I can understand both from a laymen's language as well as from the technical perspective.

I do not mean to undermine your effort (it is just that HM ragams sound sweeter and appealing does not sit well with me) , I am open to learning.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 10:41 p-85
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... i-thanilae
Harikaambodhi.
---
@Ranganayaki
Madam, I tend to agree with you. but the difference between Harikambodhi and CM kamaaj , even is too minute. ..and the Godaan song is based on HM Kammaj.
-
However, after humming the Godaan song , I ended up in Apadhooeu javaLI by Maali

https://sites.google.com/site/hindustha ... ome/kamaaj
I just saw that your godaan song was a few posts earlier. I don’t know if Arasi was referring to that song. I was referring to the Tamil song in post 82. Maraintha Koondil. That sounds more like HariKambhoji to me. To me the difference between HariKambhoji and our Khamas/khamaj is not minute. The two are very distinct, to my ear

The Godaan song is probably Hindustani Khamaj, which is not HariKambhoji, scale-wise.. and it sounds very different from our Khamas too.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 18 Mar 2022, 14:40, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thank you, Ganesh_Mourthy, for the links for those terms! 😊🙏🏻

RSR
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by RSR »

https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... aattinilae
This vintage classic by Smt.MS also is a RaagaMaalikaa- Jonpuri, Desh,Pilu and Chenchurutti...incidentally all of them HM oriented.
'Dheyvath thamizh Naatinile , veNNilaavae' , lyrics by Kalki.
--
My point is that the ragamalika song cited by GM is having all janya raagams of non-vivadi scales. ..possibly common to HM Thaats

@Ranganayaki Madam, 'MaRaintha kooNdil' song is definitely CM kamaaj.
please read Kalki's article on the Meera songs , translated by Arasi madam

arasi
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by arasi »

This is great! Thank you Ganesh_Mourthy and Ranganayaky--How much I can learn from you (and not retain, a pity). RSR, What bounty you bring here!

Am I right in understanding that most film songs, old and the newer-old ones--except for a few numbers, are all like the made-up stars, disguised somewhat in their rAga swarUpa? If so, how does it come about? Wild-guessing here: Except in films about musicians, though they might get a tune in a particular rAgA, they are conscious that it's to cater to movie goers than to concert attendants and amend it, like dressed-up pAn? Thinking that the producer might not consider the tune to be appealing enough to cinema fans? Even the MSS Meera number from 1945 doesn't have a 'recognize me this instant' sound of khamAs to it (may be, I'm slow in recognition).

The song I referred to was from Munimji: Ankh khultE huyE chip gayE hO kahAn? I hum it now and it sounds very behAg to me! Apples and oranges? Also: names of rAgAs being similar in both disciplines but their sounding something else is another problem, right? Add spelling to it too! kamAs, khamas, khamAj??And mishr this mishr that!

We know this much: just as tastes differ, the reason for our appreciating a given film song with a rAgA tag is not straight-forward. But the enjoyment is ours.
You folks know better...

Ranganayaki
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 14:18 Why HIndustani raagams are more appealing than CM raagam? Well we are fed into believing that they are appealing.
If i can also add my two cents… 😊

I don’t think ragas are inherently more appealing in Hindustani, if anyone says that, it’s a question of taste, purely.

Thanks for that song, which of course I had never heard. It is sung beautifully, the ragas are quickly recognizable and the song is very pleasing. Still I didn’t enjoy the singing because the voices were too light. The difference between Hindustani and Carnatic enjoyment /appeal is in the production, the voice culture. I wouldn’t compare this singer to a classical hindustani great with superior training and practice, but they (Hindustani wale) seem to put in a lot of effort into the sound they produce with their voices and instruments. Our carnatic musicians (traditionally) are far more concerned with raga grammar and phraseology than with their production and our audiences are very forgiving, and far more active and capable, in practicing what I call hamsa-ksheera Viveka. We don’t listen to the shortcomings of poor voice and poor singing style/habits, we look beyond it and focus on the musical ideas and we can truly enjoy it. And we enjoy that so much that we cannot agree that there are even any faults! Those are completely ignored! Philosophically that’s a lovely way to be, if only we could practice that in real-life interactions with everyone else! 😊🙏🏻

Hindustani artists work much harder, and do not put that burden on the audience.

I remember an old artist whom I could not stand when I was younger, would simply not listen to them and found them most unappealing, with their ugly habits, but now as an older person, I find utter beauty in their smooth voice, and other excellence and I enjoy it utterly, and for that quality, I am able to ignore everything I couldn’t ignore before, and I feel I have gained!

Still, I feel our we have to practice respecting our music differently (too) in the south. Yet, I don’t want our audiences to lose that discerning ability 😊👍🏻🙏🏻.

🤷🏻‍♀️

But today’s music scene is changing, I can think of a few carnatic artists who put in a lot of work into presentation(and these artists have become very popular). But in some of the most famous ones, I find that they do not pay enough attention to lyrics and there are several wrong words (which even an ignoramus like me can detect), and that’s a great pity.

So it’s not the ragas, it’s the attitude and voice culture along with the audience culture that allow CM to be less appealing to many - IMO.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

arasi wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 19:28

Am I right in understanding that most film songs, old and the newer-old ones--except for a few numbers, are all like the made-up stars, disguised somewhat in their rAga swarUpa? If so, how does it come about? Wild-guessing here: Except in films about musicians, though they might get a tune in a particular rAgA, they are conscious that it's to cater to movie goers than to concert attendants and amend it, like dressed-up pAn? Thinking that the producer might not consider the tune to be appealing enough to cinema fans? Even the MSS Meera number from 1945 doesn't have a 'recognize me this instant' sound of khamAs to it (may be, I'm slow in recognition).

You are right. Firstly I have learnt from a few music assistants that the music directors would try to avoid raaga for the reason that they want to cater to the mass. But sometimes, the PATTERN would align with raagam by chance HOWEVER they would consciously avoid the grammar of the raga. This is the reason why the film songs sound so unique. But it is unavoidable that with all the permutations and combinations the songs will align with one or the other ragam ( scale is the preferred term in the absence of grammar) . I have even heard that the music directors ( of yesteryear Hindi) get annoyed if you appreciate their compositions in person specifiying a raga . It defeats the purpose of the creation. In the absence of the grammar related to the ragam , if we decipher the scales which is bereft of the essence of the raaga, it is kind of an insult to the raaga itself. Be it the old Hindi songs or Tamil songs , I am curious to know how anyone arrives at the conclusion that a song is such and such raaga. Raaga is a very systematic formula. And only explaining the song by notations and relating it to the raaga is the only way to convince that the song is based in the raaga. Most of the time when people relate a raaga to a song in MOvie it is just a vague feeling ( I feel so ) without a provable system to back up .

When I say that the earlier malayalam song is based in such and such raaga .. I can back it up by instantly notatiing the song word by word.

G_M

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I agree . But the voices were meant to be light. It is again a mass appeal factor. It is possible to make them sing with all the heaviness and in a five minute recording , a trained singer can easily achieve it . But they do not wish it to happen. It the song goes one notch up in heaviness it is going to lose the movie appeal. You can call it "the raga in all lightness ". For the same reason I cannot compare any of Lata's song to the heaviness or the effect of Gangubai hangal , Parveen Sultana , Veena sahasrabudhe. Even one of the Malkauns that she has sung as a concert presentation is very light and perfunctory . And that is why Lata is a movie singer.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Two Bharata Ratnas : Lata and MSS

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 22:09 I agree . But the voices were meant to be light. It is again a mass appeal factor. It is possible to make them sing with all the heaviness and in a five minute recording , a trained singer can easily achieve it . But they do not wish it to happen. It the song goes one notch up in heaviness it is going to lose the movie appeal. You can call it "the raga in all lightness ". For the same reason I cannot compare any of Lata's song to the heaviness or the effect of Gangubai hangal , Parveen Sultana , Veena sahasrabudhe. Even one of the Malkauns that she has sung as a concert presentation is very light and perfunctory . And that is why Lata is a movie singer.
Yes, that was just my preference, and I did say that I was not going to compare this with great Hindustani artists… and we are not debating lightness vs classical. It was almost an aside, really.

But I was responding to your comment about the comparative appeal of hm vs CM ragas/music. That was the main thrust of my post.

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