SPB - SP Balasubrahmanyam

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 25 Sep 2020, 13:44

SPB passed away . Officially he passed away at 01:04 PM noon on Sept 25.2020.He was 74 years. What can one say about this greatest musician.

இந்த தேகம் மறைந்தாலும் இசையாய் மலர்வேன்

.

May his soul rest in peace om shanthi

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 25 Sep 2020, 13:51

SP Balasubrahmanyam : 4 June 1946 - 25 Sept 2020

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 25 Sep 2020, 18:57

Ohm shanthi . RIP

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 25 Sep 2020, 21:56

SPB- Om Shanthi.

Your have become an integral part of the life of millions of music lovers who never spend a day without listening to your song.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 25 Sep 2020, 22:11

Condolences to all!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 26 Sep 2020, 08:59

A universally loved and appreciated singer - as people of all genres loved him. A good personality . A household voice.
may he rest in peace.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 26 Sep 2020, 11:43

Most in my gen of friends/relatives know Carnatic music through his Sankarabaranam songs. And none else. Condolences to his family!

aaaaabbbbb · Post by **aaaaabbbbb** » 26 Sep 2020, 20:15

RIP,

SPB, a household name .His renditions of bilvashtakam and Ligashtakam still reverberate.

A legend of our times.Sorry we lost him.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 27 Sep 2020, 10:23

Illayaraja homage to SPB -Lighting Moksha Deepam in Thiruvannamalai

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 27 Sep 2020, 10:32

In this forum 99 percent of the songs may not fit as his genre is not in line . There is one song which we can associate as SPB is always a great mahanubhavulu with the gestalt of this forum . Cinematic constraints , possible less training in core carnatic is all compensated with his melody,feel and emote that shri SPB brings .

Paadum nilaa Balu Sir always sings SuPerBly .

Sripathi Panditaradhyula Balasubrahmanyam singing EndarO mahanubhavulu of Sadguru Thyagaraja, just 2 mins 50 secs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJki0sutt8

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 28 Sep 2020, 01:09

rajeshnat wrote: ↑27 Sep 2020, 10:32 Cinematic constraints , possible less training in core carnatic is all compensated with his melody,feel and emote that shri SPB brings .

SPB indeed clarifies to us what is really Carnatic music. We should be grateful to him. The limitation is not his training, and I am not sure the constraints are cinematic. The man could have done it possibly if requested.

But the underlying assumption and treatment of "language" in the mass media as an artifact of "communication"(supposedly that too) and not an artifact of music by itself is the reason. As you can see "jUci bramhAnanda" gets split faithfully according to language as "speech". And palatable to media consumers! Indeed that is the classical/folk divide shall we call it?

Otherwise all our musicians are also all "rural"!!

"bramhA ,, | ,,nanda" crossing saSabdakriyA and maintenance of musical syllable is indeed part of music! Even country music in the west has such nuances.

But the enlightened warriors of media culture (arivu jeevis or buddhi jeevis) that developed in Cinema era, especially when language identities hardened, did not understand and absorb this nuance! They must have thought that, this "song" is another "lyric" that somebody "composed" and handed it to them to "set" to "music" - all important terms in quotes

If Balamurali Krishna would have gotten the role and sung instead, he would have resisted this approach. Well that was actually a different movie - but just saying!

Whole universe is wrapped in "half" Akshara! For musicians like BMK/TNS/MDR 1/2 akshara is eternity, timeless!

So my original equation in one of the old threads on Bhakti holds!

CM = BMK - SPB

aDa SPB cinemAvellam viDunga , namma vaTTattulEyE praccanai irukkE!! ( Lets forget SPB/cinema, we have an issue amidst our circle!!)

Our music just doesn't connect us to Sri Purandaradasa "who laid down the patterrrnnns..." as Dr BMK himself introduces CM to some of his Audience.

It connects us to the idea that "the emergence of sound" is a deep process - a corollary of which is language, letters, words are deep sounds and artifacts of music.

That indeed wraps the smaSAna vairAgya bhOdana for today!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 28 Sep 2020, 13:45

Shankarank,
I read it twice which is something i donot usually do for your post at all. Based on the trend of your past posts I am assuming you meant that SPB did not split it right and hardly payed attention to layam . I am assuming SPB excessively denormalized endarO mahanubhavulu losing all the layam that is inbuilt . I am not a fan of BMK but that is ok . Singers attention to melody and sustained pitch is paramount for many rasikas to get acclimitized to CM.

This SPB mahanubhavulu singing entarO mahanubhavulu did not register in this movie thyagayya in 1981 as another movie by shankarabharanam came before in 1979 and was a mega blockbuster. I recollect our phenomenal @vgovindan or @vgvindan once telling me and in the forum that he also came into listening to Tyagaraja and CM and love for songs only because of SPB when he heard the song mannil intha kaadal anri and TS Balakrishna sastrigal harikatha . See vgv's entry point karanakarthas.

As we speak right now there is no one like SPB in 2020 to initiate a 8 to 25 year old neophyte to take baby steps and there is no one yet living to demystify Carnatic Music - just like what SPB did for critical count of masses in 70s to 90s.

VicharTatwa · Post by **VicharTatwa** » 28 Sep 2020, 17:08

Music, like mathematics and language, is part of a deepwired human—perhaps this is true of many other species as well—ability to make useful or playful sense of the senses. It is usually never greater than the data of the senses, but domesticates such data into local meaning strings. It is a descriptive as well as a creative enterprise, so the creative coefficient actively 'creates' sensory data while also redescribing the data that listeners already possess. The real place of music is in places as much as in the hearts and mouths of the men and women who occupy those places. India now has two recognized classical traditions as well as thousands of local traditions that are filed variously under 'folk' or 'vernacular' traditions. It takes a very petty musical mind mechanically to group this bewilderingly composite, heterogenous and astonishing variety into 'good' and 'bad'--rather than, for example, 'good-for-me' and 'bad-for-me.'

The 'filmi' tradition is certainly more 'robust' in terms of its ability to appeal to listeners than most other traditions, and we must be grateful when that most successful of traditions takes bits of the minority 'classical' tradition to more and more people. The teacher who taught me veena many decades back told me that life as a teacher changed after Shankarabharanam. And that was SPB doing that, not your ‘greats’ of the tradition. The 'filmi' tareeka is also more inclusive musically. Indian Classical music is an infant still in the womb when it comes to harmony, for example, but the 'filmi' deal is more vigorously negotiated across multiple vendors. We haven’t produced a Bach, a Beethoven, a Mozart, or a Chopin yet: when CM partisans claim that South Indian music is the best of all musics, it would be well to remember that it has its deaf moments too. The Shankarabharanam moment is also one that uses this tradition-versus-modernity dichotomy as its theme, in much the same way as Bandish Bandits does. And that usually translates into filmi-versus-classical. This is perhaps a sign of how severe the strain on the Classical continues to be, and also of how severely limited the themes are that one can address with a topic like that. I am impressed at how the ‘filmi’ is able to self-flagellate on its own grounds in deference to the classical. I doubt if the reverse would happen—not that it should happen, of course, but the thought experiment tells us how things stand in terms of pecking orders as they stand now. I know this is a simplistic analysis, especially for a forum such as this, but I’m trying to put the issues out there.

I have heard Balamuralikrishna perform in tiny village temples during Navarathri, and it was a lesson in magnanimity and openness to see how those rustic audiences took to his music, and how comfortable he seemed with them. He loved every moment of it, of course. He is the only musician who didn’t have to leave his smile backstage when he performed, and that is a very significant detail, I would say. The performers with mass appeal aren't necessarily those who grind unwieldy and puritan academic wheels. And I have heard the best Neelambari (of my limited listening hours, of course, don’t worry!) in a lonely temple in the evening when a singer sang his heart out with an Ashtapadi that put the Lord to bed. Hariprasad Chaurasia owes his success as a musician thanks to Bollywood, and he refused to draw lines and boundaries between ‘filmi’ and ‘classical’ when pressed to do so in interview after interview. I have found some very loud Carnatic musicians argue for equality between all singing traditions, but never found them learning any other tradition. When SPB sings ‘Endaro’, he is performing to script, not trying to please hard-to-please rasikas of the higher orders. Earlier performers probably had less scripting, and did what they had learnt to do. You do what you can and move on.

Like so much that is beautiful in our cultures in India, there has been so very little sharing, socially speaking, that when one of them dies out, there are very few whose cultural roots get severed thereby and who might be prompted to come to the rescue. If you don't share something for six thousand years, you would be grateful when an icon from a successful and open tradition comes along once in a way to give it some oxygen when it threatens to breathe its last in your hands. It is amazing how beholden practitioners of CM are to their 'gurus.' The cult of gurus is a sad reflection on the stinginess with which musical knowledge has always been shared. The importance of the 'guru' increases with the extent of the stinginess. A small gift is gratefully acknowledged because you don't expect discounts anyway, even if that small gift is a flashy bag, handkerchief, or teacup. When I hear about the cult of the ‘periyavarkal’ and the number of times the ears are touched in musical circles, especially during the lecdems and discussions of the music season in Madras, I cringe. Musicians get so used to adulation that when they travel abroad, they find that their ‘aura’ got lost somewhere in the luggage when they alighted on Western shores. I have been dragged along to all his concerts in the area by a famous classical musician in England once because he saw me (unconsciously) put talam sitting in the front row. I think we all need to lose our auras and diminish the distance between knowledge and its seekers, devotees and gods.

R.I.P. SP Balasubrahmanyam, thanks for giving me an opportunity to think these thoughts on this forum. May all our musical traditions thrive in mutual harmony and respect.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 28 Sep 2020, 22:37

rajeshnat wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 13:45 Based on the trend of your past posts I am assuming you meant that SPB did not split it right and hardly payed attention to layam . I am assuming SPB excessively denormalized endarO mahanubhavulu losing all the layam that is inbuilt .

Well I don't know who the music director was - wikipedia is no help with better detail for the older movie from 1946. Not sure if it is SPB himself. The thing is by shifting bramhAnanda to past the tALam boundary, he is actually doing quite a negotiation that is beautiful in itself. So I don't miss any sophistication in one sense, but rather a point about a nuance where words cross tALa samam which I believe is integral to our compositions, especially Sri tyAgarajas. But the way it is done, it seems more to do with fidelity to language of "speech" more than the musical language.

Again I am just playing back your vibe about 99% vs 1% where you selected this song - which is the 1% acceptable to this forum. If lack of adequate gamakas and his crooning voice in his Sri rAgam still makes it unacceptable, the lack of fidelity to , not the original , but a substance filled rhythmic setting should as well! The latter has come down in tradition as well. We are not sure how Sri tyAgarajA has sung it are we? Actually that last question is irrelevant!!

Hope that figures also in the list of things for you all - the 1% people! The chosen audience of Dhanammal Shanty as @Srinathk once put it!

rajeshnat wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 13:45 I am not a fan of BMK but that is ok

Rajesh! Rajesh! - he is still yearning for your recognition actually. You don't need to become a fan. Also don't recognize him because I asked you , or he is feeling less. But just know that he is feeling it. If you want evidence there is testimony by Dr. N. Ramanathan said this in the podcast - the subject of the below thread. Doesn't matter if you read the thread once or twice, but you can listen to the podcast.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24554

For quite a while he did not step into his country of Andhra ( that is a Dr. Pappu Venugopal expression used in the Dr. Nedunuri concert in Cleveland), due to a tiff with CM, NT Rama Rao - for giving music. He apparently went there only for talks ( pEccu kaccEri). He publicly recognized the people of tamizh nadu (more accurately the CM rasikas of Madras) for giving him a spot and place to render his music even as he felt he is not recognized.

Anyways in the same discussion where they discuss the recognition of Dr BMK as a authentic musician , Dr NR also declares Mridangam as not music! But we must ask how much of rhythmic nuance in the vocal rendition itself have we even recognized?

You may want to just listen to Dr. BMK rendition of endarO - how he deals with "bA,,guga podaganE" where he extends and compresses.

It seems to be for you all , your mind or brain does not recognize what your bones know to be true! Something to reflect.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 28 Sep 2020, 22:50

The male singers in Tamil until the entry of SPB were struck in the classical style . Whenever , I had a banter with friends I could not deny that the Tamil filmy did not have the magic of Rafi , Kishore , Manna de . The male voices here had to embellish the stardom of that period and that was itself a constraint. I still feel that vacuum in the musical pieces when I hear to old music , though I did not feel that with the splendid female singers we had especially P,S and S.J . It was a different scene with the rise of SPB. It was an unlimited voice , unlimited emotions and someone who understood the timbre of voice quite well. The voice matched every bests and even excelled in many ways. The aura he had and the extent of languages and regions the voice mesmerized were magical, which no other singer could till date . . I remember a quote in another language " a great voice is something that when you speak it should have the power of singing , and when you sing it should speak to you" . His singing voice spoke to everyone across the genres and languages and regions like nobody else . If a trained systematic super technical , timed voice does not do it , that is a theory to be analyzed separately .

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 28 Sep 2020, 23:08

@VicharTatwa - Thank you for your though provoking post! Each line requires an essay or epic of a response. So it may go on for sometime. Bear with me!

VicharTatwa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 17:08 The performers with mass appeal aren't necessarily those who grind unwieldy and puritan academic wheels.

Actually Dr. BMK's musical nuances on the Rhythm require an unwieldy and puritanical academic grind of unfathomable proportion. His appeal is a gift as he himself acknowledged to his student!.

VicharTatwa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 17:08 The teacher who taught me veena many decades back told me that life as a teacher changed after Shankarabharanam. And that was SPB doing that, not your ‘greats’ of the tradition.

Well the "greats" of our tradition , including Semmangudi Mama especially - he was made into a Bama - you know the kind of, sort of : "when Bama arrives in Bama Vijayam". And all of the followers Lamas. His greatness became ossified. And he had a disdain for laya exploration even the normal . common place ones in kriti rendition - forget the mathematical Wizardry. It takes careful listening to spot that, you can try the V. D Swamy farmhouse recording published by an Englishman? The difference in texture of flow when Ramnad Krishnan finishes and Semmangudi begins.

VicharTatwa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 17:08 when CM partisans claim that South Indian music is the best of all musics, it would be well to remember that it has its deaf moments too

Actually that is only based on Melody. There is the genius of a musician who claimed after his sojourn with many a musical genres , that Carnatic Music is a complete melodic system. Would he make a similar claim about Carnatic music being a complete Rhythmic system???? actually there is enough justification to do that - even Wrongly!!

There is the loud musician of inclusiveness who says it is wrong of Ilayaraja to change the "rAgAm" of mari-mari-ninne in Sindhu Bhairavi. Would he observe the same with the endarO Mahanubhavulu on the rhythm actually.

The point is NOT about the "TRUTH" of such claims - whether they are RIGHT or WRONG. NO!! The point is have they noticed the 800 pound guerilla sitting just right on their stage! To me that is actually the folk / classical - divide! The folksization of rhythm - and creation of disdain around it. And rhythym being turned into a sort of "condition" imposed on music than "first class" citizen in the musical world!.

Veena Balachander claimed in his Spic Macay Lec Dem that we south Indian musicians can easily play Hindustani , but they cannot play Carnatic! Well he confined himself to instrumental in that context - I suppose. But should he NOT worry whether the south Indian musicians can play their own music well instead?

Semmangudi Mama is also quoted in an off the cuff remark about the same. To Paraphrase the conversation a rasika, who called himself gnana soonyam (know nothing) asks him : "Mama what is the difference between HM and CM?" Mama: "pODa (sort of Go away you!) - We can all sing HM, they cannot sing CM - that is indeed the difference!".

See how the grammar of rAGA has blinded them - when discussing music!

Well more to come...

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 28 Sep 2020, 23:22

ganesh_mourthy wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 22:50 If a trained systematic super technical , timed voice does not do it , that is a theory to be analyzed separately .

Nope. The first theoretical priority is to analyze if the music has reached to those who think it has reached them and how much of it has reached them! That is more important than to ensure human rights of broader musical availability. Better to worry if the lamp that is lit in your hut has Oil in it and fed constantly!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 29 Sep 2020, 08:07

VicharTatwa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 17:08 The cult of gurus is a sad reflection on the stinginess with which musical knowledge has always been shared. The importance of the 'guru' increases with the extent of the stinginess. A small gift is gratefully acknowledged because you don't expect discounts anyway, even if that small gift is a flashy bag, handkerchief, or teacup.

That is a transformation of patronage and we have discussed a lot about that in the forum. If you are generalizing for 6000 years, that is a broad sweeping one without regard to historical convulsions. There has been good amount of sharing , good enough to create a community of artistes and carry forward the tradition given the evulsions to patronage. Especially during the known history of 150 years.

If 10 rAgAs and 50 kritis are properly taken , preserved and rendered, that is good enough to keep a nucleus of tradition alive. Rest can be extended as has happened. It is not about philately or preserving a particular form! Problems may be recent and they have specific causes. We will need more specifics for proper discussion.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 29 Sep 2020, 12:22

VicharTatwa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 17:08 Musicians get so used to adulation that when they travel abroad, they find that their ‘aura’ got lost somewhere in the luggage when they alighted on Western shores. I have been dragged along to all his concerts in the area by a famous classical musician in England once because he saw me (unconsciously) put talam sitting in the front row.

When you say musicians came to Western shores, is that really true? Have you wondered why we don't hear about them going to Shangai or Russia (except when Indian government pushed them on cultural exchange) or Eastern Europe or South America in the same lines? Other than some rare occasions when a Western festival might have invited a musician or two , the rest were mostly for Indians in the West. Only the location is different.

As regards tALam, musicians would want the opposite in the thick of Mylapore or in my town of Madurai. They don't want rasikas keeping tALam. In that respect , I have some interesting anecdotes. This was a concert of Vid. T. Sankaran flautist of Dhannamal family at IITM CLT ( I guess a place that is an entry point to Western shores

). Sri T.K Murthy was on Mridangam. Somebody who looked like a disciple or known to the flautist was keeping tALam and was missing it. It affected the playing of T.K.M and he asked this person to not do the tALam, but this didn't stop. After a while he started pleading with him to stop. A while later he literally broke down started sobbing on stage in between some items, I could hear him say "I have played for flute T.R Mahalingam etc." - implying he never faced this predicament before!

Musicians are sensitive people and it is not advisable to take this to a personal level - calling it their Aura etc. You can disagree with their opinions, especially when they have gone public. They wouldn't come to Western shores unless somebody ( in most cases, of Indian origin ) sponsored them!. In that case it becomes our duty to support them.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Sep 2020, 05:36

VicharTatwa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 17:08 India now has two recognized classical traditions as well as thousands of local traditions that are filed variously under 'folk' or 'vernacular' traditions. It takes a very petty musical mind mechanically to group this bewilderingly composite, heterogenous and astonishing variety into 'good' and 'bad'--rather than, for example, 'good-for-me' and 'bad-for-me.'

'vernacular' - dictionary currently says language of ordinary people. But a CJ says it is derogatory: https://www.livelaw.in/word-vernacular- ... pak-misra/

'folk' - generally now meant as village music, dictionary actually says music of a tradition (oral) , country music. Assumption is unless it was written down , it is NOT systematized.

We should be faithful to how urban elites use this word as all this discourse is in that context. It clearly signifies a derogatory reference. These classifications have been divined and imagined on us by the chattering class (art historians, art aficionados , cultural centers, academies, kalashetra colony elites in seminars and pass-outs of ethno musicology).

As an over all observation, from an insider perspective ( if I were to shed all my English literacy/consequent enlightenment for a moment), the filmy world has made an ass of urban consumers by dishing out enough of trash as music. What category will that belong to? - just filmy! Are we justified to develop a derogatory sense towards it? Shouldn't we expect better out of urban educated audience and enlightened directors/music directors of social change!

Films have brought many a refined music from genres as well, but ain't there a classical/folk "sort of" divide. If Illayaraja does a 20 violin symphony mix we go ga-ga over it. If he does a Jaaz mix in ilaya nila we are full of praise. If he does a genuine folk music , we appreciate it. But if he does dappanguttu , we have a category for it with a derogatory sense already!

So this is not confined to "classical circles". Such a discrimination is all pervasive. Yet we are singled out for being discriminatory. The term "classical" came out to be because the British encountered this more than anything else , just like they encountered Sanskrit pundits more than anything else. That then became a "classical" language a.k.a. dead language
to be studied in only some boutique corner of advanced studies.

Dappanguttu is cherished by the communities in the village as their own - and is as good a community music like sampradaya sangeetham ( why we have to buy into the 2 classical traditions!). Kunnakudi vaidyanathan played koTTAmbaTTi rOTTulE in many of his rural violin concerts - which had sampradaya part to begin with!

Sampradaya music in India remains held in form longer because it is cherished more as sacred - nothing else. But over a 1/2 century timeframes, it has changed form, when people migrated and sound technology changed! Yet It held some good memory of the past.

We never want to consider the sacred dimension ( which includes themes other than "gods" - yes we have to fight that word too!) , but we would submit/subject ourselves to all kinds of gazes from the West and educated elites.

And we have to fight their language to our exhaustion - yes - we are fighting their vocabulary and dictionary.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Sep 2020, 16:27

Context is all, and it would cost me Rs599 to learn the context of Hon'bl CJI's comment, and I doubt that it would be value for money. Imagine going for coronavirus vaccination:

"That will be Rs.600."

"Oh dear, I spent it on reading CJI's opinion of "vernacular.""

By definition, no, there is nothing derogatory about the word. Nut you are better placed than I to imagine how, for instance, it might have been spoken by a British officer of the East India Company. Quite likely, condescending, at the least.

The same is true of "folk." Nothing derogatory about it at all. But snobbery...

Most if not all of us who are into some sort of serious music are probably snobs about your music. Fifty years ago, my friends and I, listening to our "progressive rock" were snobbish (even derogatory sometimes

) when speaking of "pop" music of the time.

Ask me how I feel about Indian film music! But there is nothing linguistic or cultural about this. Are you not as able to be a snob in Tamil as I am in English? Is there any human fault that is not worldwide?

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Sep 2020, 20:53

Now I have to elaborate a point of mine from prior post:

shankarank wrote: ↑30 Sep 2020, 05:36 But if he does dappanguttu , we have a category for it with a derogatory sense already!

The dappanguttu identification , remarkably the surreal or epiphanic moment of this discussion, comes from the way rhythym flows! That is a very basic form of what is called in laya tradition as "triSram" , i.e. in threes.

VicharTatwa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 17:08 When I hear about the cult of the ‘periyavarkal’ and the number of times the ears are touched in musical circles, especially during the lecdems and discussions of the music season in Madras, I cringe.

So when the urban mamas , the kind of people who made you cringe when they touched the two ears, walked out on taniyavartanam ( percussion solo!) - did they subconsciously assign a folk category to it? They can touch ears all they want, but forgot the respect to be shown for a paramparya tradition of sAdhakam! They didn't give their ears!

VicharTatwa wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020, 17:08 Indian Classical music is an infant still in the womb when it comes to harmony, for example, but the 'filmi' deal is more vigorously negotiated across multiple vendors. We haven’t produced a Bach, a Beethoven, a Mozart, or a Chopin yet

As early us 19th century sophistications were introduced in triSram by percussionists. Playing 4(s) using "in threes" syllables. Very abstract. That is dappanguttu nadai made into concert grade. Appropriation?

Beethoven/Mozart beware! There is a new cancel culture brewing around the block. - will arrive in auditoriums near you!:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020 ... ical-music

Schenker held racist views, particularly with regard to Black people, and according to Ewell those views seeped into the seemingly abstract principles of his theoretical work

The loud musician of inclusiveness tweets this asking us to examine Caste Supremacy in our abstract theories!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Sep 2020, 20:58

Nick H wrote: ↑30 Sep 2020, 16:27 Context is all, and it would cost me Rs599 to learn the context of Hon'bl CJI's comment, and I doubt that it would be value for money. Imagine going for coronavirus vaccination:

"That will be Rs.600."

"Oh dear, I spent it on reading CJI's opinion of "vernacular.""

Judgement verdict sentence is enough! Supreme court justices are after all infallible because they are final!

Nick H wrote: ↑30 Sep 2020, 16:27 Ask me how I feel about Indian film music! But there is nothing linguistic or cultural about this.

Well the English fed Indians are a separate category. They have an "aura" around themselves.

That's what I meant when I said, let me shed my English literacy for a moment.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 01 Oct 2020, 11:52

@shankarank
Dear Sir, I was so happy that you were creating a new trend by your crisp and brief on-line concerts' reviews, sans any diversions into philosophy -politics-etc. Your posts in this thread belie my hope and joy. I always give first preference to your posts in any of the sections. Why so much venom in a thread dedicated to a rather well-known and popular musician, though you may not approve all the hype about him . I too hate the hype.
As the thread has gone off topic , I thought why not add one more deviation on my part. to answer some of your points in simple English.
Here we go.
----------------------------------------------------------
1) It cannot be denied that ( I am confining to Tamilnadu strictly and definitely, Tamilnadu is not at all Chennai. ). film music is and has been a hundred times more popular among the common people ever since its advent nearly a century back. Cinema is a very powerful medium and accessible to the remotest village in our state. Prior to cinema, it was the drama companies that took good music to the common village and small town people, next to temple festivals. The trend started in 1920 and now after a century, neither the drama troupes ( of the like of SGKittappa and KB SundarambaaL - and the patriot Viswanatha Das ) are to be found anywhere today. Those decades are gone for ever. And , if at all, the common people have ever so small exposure to some bits of classical music, it is is through the medium of films. It was much more so in the 1930-1960 decades. The role of film music in taking classical ragas to the common people especially from 1935 to 1950 cannot be belittled. I would even suggest that classical music if it has to reach the crores of rural people in our state, HAS to adopt film music as the sole medium, rather than the kutchery pattern whether live or virtual streaming. That surely is the future if not already the present. ( contd..in 2).

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 01 Oct 2020, 12:21

continued from the previous post
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2) My personal experience ...I was exposed to Hindi film music through the radio only, as I am from a small town near your native district. 1947-48 was indeed a turning point. ( I was just six year old then) . I did not know much of Hindi ( even now, I do not know Hindi), The Hindi film music world had great music composers like C Ramachandra, Noushad, Sachin dev Burman, Anil Biswas, Vasanth Desi and the great Madan Mohan ,,, Roshan and Shankar Jaikishen. Except the last mentioned duo, all of them had some training in Hindusthani classical music. and it was sheer genius of them that they created hundreds of tunes based on HM ragas.
And to give 'voice' to their creative imagination, we had absolutely great singers like Talat Mahmood, Manna Dey, Mohamad Rafi (listen to his pyasa song) and Mukesh.
The teenage angel Lata Mangeshkar shed a holy light on the songs by her divine voice. Many a time, she rendered the tune in her own fashion, even exceeding the expectation of the composers and it is no exaggeration that the then music directors also, aimed at tapping the full potential of Lata. She belonged to a family of HM practitioners of Maharashtra. If she had not chosen fim music rather than HM concert music, she would certainly have beome the top-most vocalist. What the HM classical music concerts lost, crores of Indians
( including Pakisthan) gained.
The point I am trying to drive at is that good music transcends language and theme barriers. ( contd..in 3) .

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 01 Oct 2020, 15:12

continued from post above
3) Why should I speak about the great years of Hindi film music from 1947 to 1967? what lessons can we learn from them? (a) Of the thousands and thousands of Hindi film songs, all of them are meant to be of short duration. --typically 78 rpm records- 3.3 minutes for each side. Is it not true for all film songs in any of the Indian languages including Tamil even today? How can we have a 2 hours concert in a film when the film itself runs for two hours only?
'small is beautiful' .
-------
b) secondly , the famed music directors of that golden era made judicious use of Western musical instruments and orchestration. Not fusion music- mind you. Just playing very nice classical raga tunes - with instrumental background in studio environment. ( breadth-taking - as in 'yeh zindagi usiki hai' - first and second part- especially the second part. Turn on the bass, max volume and close your eyes and concentrate on the creative ecstasy of Lata and the background music!). After all, Violin was introduced in classical CM in MD period only. Why should we not use Western Instruments as background in songs ? Piano accordion, Viola, clarinet, Mndolin, saxaphone, and such.? Have we not enjoyed Nathamuni band? And for Rhythm fans, Shankar Jaikishan gave plenty in dolak and tabla. How can we have mrudhangam and tavil in film music songs unless they are about classical musicians? Why frown at real innovation by those masters?
In 1940 period,Kamadas Gupta was supervisor for many tamil musicals and S.V.Venkataraman was an ardent learner from him. SVV never had any classical music training. He was with a Drama boys company only. It is said that h used more than 100 instrumentalists in background during the filming of Meera -Tamil in 1945. The sound track of instrumental interludes are given in my site dedicated to Smt.MS ( sites.google.com/site/homage2mssubbulakshmi )) Though many of us cherish the songs, very few would have heard those Instrumental interludes.
I would venture to assert that most of the records of Smt.MS had background music by SVV. and these were all masterpieces. Just listen to the gentle unobtrusive but enchanting background music of MS all time hit, 'maalaip pozhuthinile ' a ragamalika given sometime in 1942. It was a household song in tamilnad .
The pinnacle of SVV achievement was in his orchestration of ' vadavaraiyai matthaakki' ragamalika. Note the difference in the record and the song sung on satge by Smt.MS herself.
If CM has to become the passion of crores of Taminadu's rural pople as it used to be in 1940's thanks to MUSIRI, MM. Danadapani Desikar and MKT , we must learn the above points and not keep on harping on the moribund kutchery pattern of vocalist, mrudhangam and violin alone. Evidently, the type of orchestral music as by Ilayaraja can never be created except in studio environment.
Coming back to the original topic of this thread, SPB did his best according to the music director's dictates.
So, the duty of Lyricists, Music directors, singers and producers is to swear to eschew vulgar themes, always revolving around so-called romance and focus on decent themes with social message. Was it not macchanaip partthengala' of AnnannkkiLI that brought Ilayaraja into the limelight?
----
( to be continued in part-4)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Oct 2020, 18:39

Rebuke accepted for having entered into light-hearted philosophical banter on an obituary thread. It was inappropriate.

Apologies.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 01 Oct 2020, 18:46

I don't have venom against the great one and only SPB! And I approve all the hype about him!!!

This analysis is about many commentaries on sampradAya music and how various view points collide from film world as well. Some of the issues and biases etc. for which sampradAya world is blamed, extend to the film world as well - was my argument.

The film music seems like a more open system, only because it is taking ideas from everything else. It doesn't have to create a whole thing from ground up!

The one that I was harsh towards, is some trashy music in general dished out to urban consumers - nothing specific about any from SPB's oeuvre. In fact I may not have heard anything from his staple that I could disagree with.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 03 Oct 2020, 04:20

So here is the unplugged session with Anil Srinivasan. He votes kaadalin deepam as one of the great compositions - a melody intensive or melismatic texture on an action hero!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRN45t7HAPw

Part 2 (yet to watch) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZYDKOZvFXs

prabhu53 · Post by **prabhu53** » 03 Oct 2020, 06:38

பாடும் நிலா, இப்பொழுது நிலாப்பாட்டாகி விட்டது. அந்த நிலவணிந்த சங்கரனுக்கு அடித்தது யோகம்

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 03 Oct 2020, 09:59

part-4
=====
How to take classical music ragams to the rural people in Tamilnadu? has been my main concern all along. There have been two generation changes. ( roughly 11970-1995 and 1995-2020.
This can be done if popular film vocalists tour the interior towns of tamilnadu ( there are hundreds of them with great historical and cultural importance and history. ) They can take sufficient orchestration artistes with them and arrange for free public concerts in medium level towns , choosing good songs based on classical ragas. ( Why not the film titles themselves give the raga names of the songs? this can be done even in traditional concerts. I understand that the famous and popular duo Ranjanai and Gayathri interact with the listeners in this manner. A concert need not be a quiz show for testing the knowledge level of the audience but can be just an educative session. ).. As the songs are all from films ( recent -post 1970), the listeners already know the tunes and can resonate in their minds with the added advantage of ragam information. Of course, even the STALWARTS of yore gave some twists for jana-ranjakathvam. no harm. the lay public will atlet get familiarity with the ragam names. Gradually, they leran to appreciate classical ragams.
https://sites.google.com/site/decadesbacksogs
gives the classics by Lata and the old stalwart music directors

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 03 Oct 2020, 09:59

part-4
=====
I think, it was in a delightful family-codedy romance that Savithri as a classical music teacher,sang 'raaga Sudha rasa'. and who can refute that even the rural audience appreciated and enjoyed it?
can we not introduce Shyama Sastry swara jathis for a few minutes in decent fims, ( sans ny dance please)
How to take classical music ragams to the rural people in Tamilnadu? has been my main concern all along. There have been two generation changes. ( roughly 11970-1995 and 1995-2020.
This can be done if popular film vocalists tour the interior towns of tamilnadu ( there are hundreds of them with great historical and cultural importance and history. ) They can take sufficient orchestration artistes with them and arrange for free public concerts in medium level towns , choosing good songs based on classical ragas. ( Why not the film titles themselves give the raga names of the songs? this can be done even in traditional concerts. I understand that the famous and popular duo Ranjanai and Gayathri interact with the listeners in this manner. A concert need not be a quiz show for testing the knowledge level of the audience but can be just an educative session. ).. As the songs are all from films ( recent -post 1970), the listeners already know the tunes and can resonate in their minds with the added advantage of ragam information. Of course, even the STALWARTS of yore gave some twists for jana-ranjakathvam. no harm. the lay public will atlet get familiarity with the ragam names. Gradually, they leran to appreciate classical ragams.
https://sites.google.com/site/decadesbacksongs
gives the classics by Lata and the old stalwart music directors

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 04 Oct 2020, 11:48

RSR wrote: ↑03 Oct 2020, 09:59 can we not introduce Shyama Sastry swara jathis for a few minutes in decent fims, ( sans ny dance please)

Music director and violinist VS Narasimhan has done the bhairavi svarajathi in cello: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfnEfpdVVek. I have heard my brother play the album once - now it is all online - many more items come up once you search V S Narasimhan. May be with its lower register emphasis, very apt one to even do a varNa meTTu in tamizh with any intense theme, not just on a deity.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 04 Oct 2020, 18:40

Being an obituary thread, the mods could please move some of the discussions to another thread on SPB, or a thread on the impact of film music on the masses, but IMHO it is just totally out of place in an obituary section.

We have lost one of the greatest singers in SPB sir and a wonderful personality as well. His talent and versatility was unmatched and his voice, well no amount of words do justice to his ability to touch audiences hearts and pull on our heartstrings the way he did. He just knew how to emote. I could enjoy a long drive with only his songs playing the whole time, and this is rare because usually only the best of CM is reserved for that spot.

He might not have been a full time CM musician, but SPB's classical songs were a huge hit when they came out. They were brilliantly rendered. No one would ever believe that he had no formal training of any sort for a very long time. In fact after singing for Shankarabharanam, he was at first criticized by BMK for this, but SPB met it with great humility and eventually BMK became so fond of him that he praised him saying "Today, Balu can sing like Balamuralikrishna, but Balamuralikrishna can never sing like Balu".

SPB was a phenomenal musical mind, able to learn a song within minutes and render it and create that kind of impact that many musicians spend years polishing their songs for. His pronounciation was just gold standard. He never really changed his voice timbre for a particular actor, but whatever he sang always seemed like the apt voice for the hero of the story and you can't imagine it any other way. That is nothing short of a magic trick.

His voice was actually ageless. It never seemed to betray any weakness even in his 70s and it could sing any inflection or subtle shade or nuance he wanted. This despite some of his not so good habits which he himself admitted he struggled to let go of over the years and which he strongly discouraged others from doing, which makes it all the more a miracle. His association with MSV, whom he revered, elevated his standard of singing in Tamil Cinema to another level altogether.

He was also a great actor the few times he acted. What may be less known is that he also lent his voice to voice acting.

SPB as a personality was ever cheerful, extremely humble, with a great sense of humor and even childlike mischievous at times and he was thoroughly a romantic both in his music and out side of it. He just loved talented young singers. His personality endeared him to countless fans.

Behind the scenes he donated to many charitable causes and helped many struggling artistes - supporting Sh. Ilayaraja in his early days was the most famous instance, but there were numerous others. His last public performance in Feb. was for a palliative care programme. Around that time, he even donated his ancestral house to the Kanchi Mutt.

Very few people have this reputation of being an ajatashatru (one who has no enemies). When SPB passed away, it became amply clear how many loved him. I have not seen a single word of negativity by anyone. The tributes just keep pouring in.

His passing was also a deep personal loss to many many members of the CM community as well.

The one and only SPB is gone, to sing for the Gods even? But his voice and songs will live on and continue to touch millions.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 04 Oct 2020, 19:46

Thank you Srinath,

Whatever is planted on your mind and whatever influence the mainstream might have , not every music touches your soul. Even after 10 days every now and then my mind does not fail to think of him and his music resonates often. His humility is a rare phenomenon and he emphasized it everytime that it was his luck and he is just another singer with a lot of luck and grace , and he meant it and totally believed it , while we know his music is not another luck but one in a billion star.

The way this thread quickly moved out of context is upsetting. There are certain civil requirement for obituary . There was a video in youtube remembering SPB and people where recollecting their memory of him , his songs and music. Is that not these threads are also meant for? If you folks feel like you have the urge and prerogative to comment and analyse everythng and everywhere, I request, at least spare the obituary. Let it be a recollection of good memories . Respect the souls.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 04 Oct 2020, 21:15

Well said Srinath and ganeshmurthy. You need not exhibit your intelligence in all the available avenues.

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 04 Oct 2020, 21:27

Lot has been written about the film songs SPB had made immortal and also about the film classical Sankarabharanam. I will tell other things now.

After the super hit Sankarabharanam, a film was released Saptapadi by the same team which contained many raga based songs. One song I remember is Akhilandeswari. Another is Mahishasuramardini. Other songs I do not remember. I have the recording of the songs in that film. SPB has sung the songs fully bringing out the raga bhavam.

Somehow I did not remember the Thyagayya songs.

I also remember the many devotional songs. Mainly the Siva Stothrams like Lingashtakam, Bilvashtakam etc. That still remains as the beacon of those stotrams. It is played everywhere- in temples, houses, TV channels, kalyanamandapams, tourist buses etc. No other recording could eclipse the popularity of those stotrams. Many young people have learnt Lingashtakam listening to those recordings. Like Venkateswara Suprabhatham by M.S, Kanda Shashti Kavacham by Sulamangalam Sisters, this will remain everybody’s favourite for ever.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 04 Oct 2020, 21:44

https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... k-6655171/

Such lives must only be celebrated and not mourned.

Also important spoke persons of our music, leave no chance behind, to bring up socio-political vibes even in an eulogy!

https://frontline.thehindu.com/other/ob ... 755197.ece

SPB came from a certain social construction and to be able to de-baggage that in his work would have been impossible, unless he was able to leave S.P. Balasubrahmanyam the person behind the moment he stood in front of the mike. SPB had an instinctive way of tapping into various cultures and demographies. This is emotional insight of the highest order and difficult to explain. For all other singers, there was and is a social-range limit to their voice.

Or this also now not appealing to the 99% here? Not part of our discourse any more?

This allowed every individual, irrespective of their socio-political location, to find him/herself within his voice at one time or another. This self-identification gave SPB a universalism that has eluded every other Indian playback singer. And I would like to stress with extra emphasis that no other “voice” in Indian film history has belonged to such a diverse cross-section of Indian society.

Isn't that carrying forward the subaltern theory of our social "sciences" that tamizhs are somehow a separate set of people? Didn't any play back singer of north percolate down the diversity of all other states where Hindi is a non-taboo!

If the memory of SPB cannot trigger these debates, then what worth all his efforts? SPB is from Andhra! Jesudas is from Kerala. TMS is a Saurashtra person from Madurai ( the same community of Wallajapet Ventaramana Bhagavathar!). P Susheela, S. Janaki are all from Andhra. S. Chitra is from Kerala. Vani Jayaram is from TN - Vellore!

By the way have SPB been discussed well in the light/classical section? Didn't go there much. Will check it out!!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Oct 2020, 07:02

I agree that certain life has to be celebrated. There are 40000 songs and every time someone mentions a song, I am surprised I have not heard them ever, or for a long long time.

This is a song that I listened every now and then , which comes alive again refreshingly .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aAKw8vEOzI

RasikasModerator3 · Post by **RasikasModerator3** » 05 Oct 2020, 11:03

Dear members, given that this is an obituaries section, kindly respect the mood and spirit of the thread as it is meant to honour the legend that was SPB and not about deviating onto other tracks and musings that belong elsewhere. Please be aware and exercise restraint and take all these other discussions elsewhere where they belong. Special mention to @shankarank.

Thanks all.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 05 Oct 2020, 11:36

In an article cited by @shankarank , the writer confines entirely to SPB film 'sankarabaranam'. There was so much hype about the film in the press and I broke my habit of not viewing films later than 1964, except some very good films ( Sujatha) directed by K.Balachandar. It was all very long back ( 50 years?), and I do not remember the songs except that 'brocheva ' in that film put me off .
Anyway, the article was really good as it is a personal experience for the writer stressing some values dear to me also. ( but I cannot but suspect that the film's popularity was more due to the dancer manju bargavi ). ( rather than any of those values or the music!).
-----------------------
In another article in Indian Express, the writer highlights that SPB himself had openly stated that the greatest influence on his style was his idol, Mohomad Rafi.
-----------------------------
These two articles are written from a personal angle. felt experience focusing on a particular point. No less good for that . Obituary can just be 'May his soul Rest in Peace ' one liner or some synopsis from views and tributes by various persons - nothing original - no song being mentioned. Nothing great about it.
----------------------------------
'Aayiram nilave vaa' - I remember to have heard many decades back and it became popular for it was from an MGR 's popular film. And it was exact copy of an earlier song by Asha Bhosle ( I think music director was OP Nayyar).
-------------------------

That said, may his soul RIP.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Oct 2020, 14:02

RSR sir

Every greatest of greats you mentioned were critisized by a section of people harshly . Any art form is a team work and even to be presented before us for our consumption requires a lot of creative minds and industrious effort . Many catalyst occurs that change the course of actors , singers and artists and they are complimentary in nature though we cannot define that and break it down.

Every musician is inspired by someone , consciously or subconsciously , by repeated listening , admiration , adaptation and that is how artwork develops into something beautiful as we see and hear them now. Otherwise it may go out of line from human taste and it could appaling. A true talent does not come out of nowhere and an artiste slowly imbibes different styles and nuances and sometimes that invisible mentor may not even see the light of the day.

It requires a great amount of himility to openly attribute one's accomplishments to someone else , which many are uncomfortable with and that is what this great man had , and everyone owes their success to a lot of people who paved their path. . I don't see SPB's singing anywhere resembling Rafi. He carved a unique niche. Creativity is nothing but an extention of influence which only the creator is aware of .

I did not wish to add much , but I felt a bit slighted vicariously of SPB being pulled down in this thread . And the north admiration and south suppression - North had a headstart and there is nothing superiorly great about it . South had its share of singers and musicians and art forms as good or sometimes even better.

For a comparison and analysis we can open another thread . But let this be for SPB and recollection of his works and his thoughts.

Thank you

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 05 Oct 2020, 18:35

at 42
@ganesh.mourthy
Dear Sir,
I am afraid that North-South divide does not enter into my perception. The degeneration in both Bollywood and even in Bengal, in the decades after 1970, is evident. So too in Tamil film circles. The entire world scene has changed. upside down.
I am with you that the era of actors like early Sivaji Ganesan and MGR and character actors like S.V.Subbiah, T.S.Balaiah and S.V.Ranga Rao are superb. Leading heroes and heroines in the decades 1947-1967, had no counterparts in the Hindi Film world.
We had good music directors like Sudharsanam, G.Ramanathan and a few more. But iin film songs even from those early decades, I do not have a single tune in Tamil that I remember comparable to those of the best from Hindi film world of 1947-1967. Nor do the Hindi film songs of post 1967. Let us agree to disagree . No belittling of anybody was or is meant. With that clarification, permit me to leave this thread. Regards
Generation gap , perhaps.

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 05 Oct 2020, 18:37

How to hijack a thread ...

Learn from shankarank
Has an opinion on anything and everything.
Long write ups (verbose) which seldom makes sense ....
keeps quoting from others post and his own ....

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 06 Oct 2020, 04:55

I only responded to quite a deep comment by others! I would not justify beyond this to keep it within limits as suggested by the moderator!

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 06 Oct 2020, 13:42

ram1999 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2020, 18:37 How to hijack a thread ...

Learn from shankarank
Has an opinion on anything and everything.
Long write ups (verbose) which seldom makes sense ....
keeps quoting from others post and his own ....

More like how to kill off all discussion in thread after thread after thread. It's borderline spam. Too many posters have left and refused to return and told me privately they feel the quality of discussions has deteriorated - this has damaged the forum.

I think mods should be stricter about threads staying on topic from now on as all these detours are just killing threads. In the past I remember vk saying threads often come up with new insights when allowed to flow more freely, but they must seriously rethink it now.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Oct 2020, 15:31

I agree . But let me start a thread separately in general discussion to address it Srinath. This space requires a little home cleaning.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 06 Oct 2020, 20:46

If some poster comes and looks at the musical community and it's practices as "other" creatures, I respond similarly making him and his ilk the subject of such a gaze - i.e. reversing it. Sometimes that becomes hard on people!

I am referring to "how many times 'ears' are touched" comment! Does people even know why even "ears" are touched? What is actually good about them?

If posters don't come and post here because of me - that tells more about them than me! That is how much welcoming they are of alternate views.

In fact those that are educated in the modern sense, first should lose their cultural rights. If they wear a predominant lens as a result of their education, then they cease to be a member of any of the "diverse" cultural ensemble. They are the ones that should open their "ears" and listen!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Oct 2020, 21:12

Shankarank I will love to hear about that in the lounge perhaps . I am all ears. As agreed this is not a lounge but a sanctum . We are not going to discuss any much here , right? Let others pour their thoughts here in a respectful manner. . Let it be strictly SPB. Thank you

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 07 Oct 2020, 12:43

The trigger for the digression into classicism and what not !!

""#10 Re: SPB - SP Balasubrahmanyam
Post by rajeshnat » 27 Sep 2020, 09:02

In this forum 99 percent of the songs may not fit as his genre is not in line . There is one song which we can associate as SPB is always a great mahanubhavulu with the gestalt of this forum . Cinematic constraints , possible less training in core carnatic is all compensated with his melody,feel and emote that shri SPB brings .

Paadum nilaa Balu Sir always sings SuPerBly .

Sripathi Panditaradhyula Balasubrahmanyam singing EndarO mahanubhavulu of Sadguru Thyagaraja, just 2 mins 50 secs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJki0sutt8 ""

while paying tributes, just pay tributes, why talk of cinematic constraints, less training in core carnatic.etc etc !!!

Guess half of the discussions goes this way and spoils the intent of the thread