Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

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Rsachi
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Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Image

Dear rasikas,

Do you agree with me that the veena, the instrument that our artistic and spiritual sensibilities have placed in the hands of Saraswati, Shiva, and Narada, is the subtlest musical instrument in the world!? Ideal for aatmaanubhava, raasanveshana, inherently, intrinsically a meditative instrument, a most harmonious and expressive extension of the creative spirit!?

Listen to this: http://bit.ly/KSBrhaspate

vInAvAdanatatvajnaH SrutijAtiviSAradaH tAlajnasca aprayAsEna mokshamArgaM niyacchati -
Sage Yagnavalkya
(The one adept at playing the veena, expert in shruti, jaati(ragas) and tala, will without much effort find the road to salvation).

Happy New Year to all!

Sachi R
Last edited by Rsachi on 26 Dec 2013, 08:21, edited 1 time in total.

Sreeni Rajarao
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Sreeni Rajarao »

What a beautiful piece you have chosen that completely reflects your thoughts!

I try to listen to veena music at least for a few minutes every single day. On a good day, I listen to at least an hour of veena music.
Today has been a very good day - I have listened for over two hours!

PUNARVASU
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by PUNARVASU »

Beautiful! Is it a pencil sketch?
I am an ardent Rasika of veena. Never get tired of listening to it. Thanks for posting.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Yes, Sreeni and Punarvasu. I got a sketch on the net (based on a photo of MSS) - JUST what I wanted.
The artiste in the piece is the great Kalpakam Swaminathan maami.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

From Jayanthi Kumaresh lecdem on Parivadini today:
Veena playing is a psychosomaticmotor activity, stimulates the kundalini and influences breath control as a yogic exercise.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by vasanthakokilam »

That was a great lecture by Dr. Jayanthi Kumaresh. She is a great communicator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNwAmdO8XFY

A must watch, I would say.

parivadini is going from strength to strength. That is great to see. As Lalitha Ram mentioned in the intro, Jayanthi had given a similar lecture at the Music Academy but that is all locked up in some vault ( possibly only to be opened for the pope and the queen. Well, he did not quite say it ;) ). This is his attempt to get that out and reach the public at large. Great service.

harimau
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by harimau »

On the Internet, anybody can claim whatever they want.

The fact of the matter is that just a handful attend veena concerts.

During off-season, the late Smt Kalpakam Swaminathan's concerts at Raga Sudha Hall would start with 20 listeners at 6:30 pm, go up to 35 by 7:15 and drop down to 20 again by 8 pm. By the time the concert ends at 8:30, there will be hardly a dozen persons.

Yes, I used to do a headcount.

I am sure people flock to mandolin or keyboard concerts. X(

baradu2
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by baradu2 »

Namaste people,
I will be playing a Veena concert this evening at 7 at Bala Mandir German Hall organized by Indian Fine Arts Society with KAlyani Shankar madam on the Violin and Vijay Nateshan anna on the Mridangam. Please do come in large numbers and encourage me.
Baradwaj Raman

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Jayanthi herself has expressed concern about dwindling interest in veena concerts.

SB accosted LGJ accusing him of stealing concerts from vainikas with his V3 ensemble.
Subtlety is like wrist and finger spin. It seems to be a dying art. We are witnessing its losing box office appeal to loud Chennai Express kind of masala.

Chennai rasikas, please attend Bharadwaj's concert today.

rajeshnat
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by rajeshnat »

baradu2 wrote:Namaste people,
I will be playing a Veena concert this evening at 7 at Bala Mandir German Hall organized by Indian Fine Arts Society with KAlyani Shankar madam on the Violin and Vijay Nateshan anna on the Mridangam. Please do come in large numbers and encourage me.
Baradwaj Raman
Warm welcome- Baradwaj. For those who dont know, baradwaj raman is grandson of veena s balachandar

uday_shankar
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by uday_shankar »

Indeed. Apart from being the only grandson of the legendary Shri Balachander who took to the vina, Baradu (as Baradwaj is known to all who know him) is also a keen researcher and innovator in the field of vina design, again like the legend himself...the apple does not fall far from the tree and all that :).

Nick H
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Nick H »

most subtle in the world?

Hmmm... I have two thoughts about that:

1. Subtlety is in the performer: in the right hands, even a trombone could be the subtlest.

2. How did the veena sound before electric amplification? Surely that has changed its nature utterly?

Moving from wonderings back to the present day... I really don't have much experience of listening to veena (and even in Chennai, it's not easy to get!) but I am very impressed by Ashwin Anand. You can tell me that I am partisan, and will always praise a certain school, but before one even gets to his music, which is superb, he seems to me to be about the only veena player who never has tuning problems, never has mic/pickup problems, never has amplifier knob-twiddling problems, etc, etc.

uday_shankar
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by uday_shankar »

Nick H wrote:in the right hands, even a trombone could be the subtlest.
No doubt. In present day usage, the word "vina" has come exclusively denote the Saraswati vina. Traditionally, any stringed instrument was named a vina. For example, Bharatha's dhruva and chala vinas in the Natya Shastra were like yazhs or harps. The sitar is a vina too and so is the chitravina. And they all sound divine to my ears if played by the right hands.

Even the current design of the "Saraswati" vina is of fairly recent vintage, perhaps the last 400 years or so. Older sculptures depict all kinds of designs. For example, forumite Ramakriya has posted pictures of sculptures of different types of vinas from Belur/Halebidu:

http://neelanjana.wordpress.com/2013/08 ... halebeedu/

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

As it requires a highly sensitised rasika to appreciate Veena, there has to be conscious effort from them to listen to the instrument.
Organising more and more Chamber concerts (not 'Thengamoodi') will be a good step in this direction. It takes exclusive Veena festivals to attract listeners!
But for All India Radio, Veena playing would be forgotten.

vgovindan
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by vgovindan »

IMHO veena is the best instrument and it can beat even voice with its lingering reverberations - all this without the use of built-in amplifier. I consider that Veena with built-in amplifier is only 'another' instrument. It is unfortunate that vainikas have opted for amplification to reach more audience than the pure notes.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Nick, Uday, Govindan, VKM,..

Jayanthi explained the different veena constructions and playing styles well in that Parivadini lecdem. Significantly, she stated that these days, multiple influences and enablers make it possible for each musician to evolve his or her own bani.
Also her paraphrasing a HM vidwan that gayaki is a way for you to sing your musical ideas through the instrument on hand and not your vocal instrument appealed to me very much.

Coming to the veena, I call it the subtlest because:
The way you sit and pluck the strings and move your left hand over the strings and frets makes it extremely close to your physical being with a hugely tactile experience of sound with no intermediate medium. Use of a bow in the violin reduces closeness to that extent to the vibrating strings. Use of amplification etc. Is each a step away from closeness.
Subtle because you can be really really delicate and intimate in your interface with your instrument, as there is no threshold of effort in producing a sound.

I feel with its seven strings, its frets and its ergonomics, the veena is the most versatile AND subtle instrument to produce gamakas, slides and multistring chords.

I am sorry, to me veena means the current saraswati veena. I am a bit sceptical about Indian historical proofs of earlier dates etc. and for me the fact this instrument has been around for 400 years is enough to say it has been around for a LOOONG time.

Finally all my views are that of a mere listener, and without any agenda.

I FULLY SUPPORT the idea of more chamber concerts of veena!

Nick H
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Nick H »

400 years is long enough for me too!

Your description of the playing is like my feeling about rowing a boat. Sailing may give on great interaction with both wind and water, but, somehow, an oar in each hand, for both propulsion and steering, is, to me, as intimate as it gets. (err... for a non-swimmer!).

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Rsachi,
Were you present at Jayanti Kumaresh's lec dem? I don't know whether you were among a few rasikas whom I talked to after the event!
(It was I who sought her opinion about 'Gayaki' style at the end).

Yes, the electronic/digital Veena fails to bring out the baani of the player!

Due to paucity of time, many points couldn't be discussed. I expected she would play the Veena for some more time. She had brought an excellent traditional Saraswati Veena.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Nick, I am in Blr and have heard and liked her manodharma music very much, played on that same veena.
Sorry I simply watched the archived Parivadini video. Your question re gayaki was a great one.

cacm
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by cacm »

[quote="Nick H"]most subtle in the world?

2. How did the veena sound before electric amplification? Surely that has changed its nature utterly?

I WOULD SAY THAT AMPLIFICATION OF ANY SORT- IN THE VEENA ITSELF OR IN THE HALL HAS TOTALLY ALTERED ITS TIMBRE, POWER SPECTRUM PRODUCED IN TERMS OF FREQUENCIES HEARD & SEVERAL OTHER THINGS.
SERIOUSLY IT SHD BE CALLED ANOTHER INSTRUMENT. NOT MY OPINION BUT THAT OF S.B. with whom I worked having bought him the first contact mic.
I AGREE WITH THAT ASSESMENT.
THE REAL VEENA SOUNDS ARE NOT PRESENT IN THE VEENA WITH ANY KNID OF AMPLIFICATION BECAUSE THE MIC THAT CAN FAITHFULLY PICK UP ALL THE FREQUENCIES IS NOT USED & ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DESIGN THEORETICALLY EVEN. CLOSEST WAS THE NIMBUS ONE WHICH HAD CLOSE TO 50 MINI MICS & ITS SIZE WILL NOT FIT THE VEENA PROPERLY.
ANY ONE WHO HAS HEARD THE VEENA IN THE AGE GONE BY CAN GO TO JAPAN & HEAR KOTO WHICH COMES CLOSEST. ...VKV

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Rsachi wrote:Nick, I am in Blr and have heard and liked her manodharma music very much, played on that same veena.
Sorry I simply watched the archived Parivadini video. Your question re gayaki was a great one.

Rsachi,
It was me who discussed on Gayaki! What are your views on Gayaki?

Nick H
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Nick H »

I think the name was a slip of the fingers by Rsachi. For starters, it credits me with far too much understanding!

cacm, even hearing people practice without amp, I'd say that that the "electric" veena is as different to the veena as the "electric" guitar is to the guitar. Nothing wrong with either: they have both been used in creating wonderful music, but the "electric" veena has wiped out the "acoustic" veena, whilst the acoustic guitar is still going strong.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Dear Sivaramakrishnan,
I am no expert.
When I heard Balachander, I felt he was able to really sing through his veena with his powerful manodharma and somewhat quirky tendency to play seven swaras on a transverse pull. Yet I also felt his Ravana-like play was so self-consumed it bordered on disdain for his veena. His navagraha kritis LPs where he has played AND sung, are his gayaki at its best!

Smt Vidya Sankar once demonstrated all the 22 gamakas on the veena. I believe the veena can do so much to play the vocal gamakas and even go beyond with its multistring play.

There is a Dakshinamurte by SSI with KSN playing the veena. It is heavenly.

Whereas the mic has extended the sound continuity and sound gain as enablers for the vainika to express his manodharma even making it more gayaki, I feel it robs the veena of its essential subtlety and meditative quality. The consequent descent in its pitch that Jayanthi mentioned has also robbed the veena sound of its brightness and attractiveness. Gayaki at a huge price!


Perhaps one can say uncharitably that it is akin to the caving in of a great subtle art form to the temptations of plebeian tastes.

ANYDAY my being responds more readily to a delicate veena, a passionate flute or a vervy nadaswaram playing Indian ragas well, compared to any other instrument.

I told you I am no expert. Please tell me your views.
Last edited by Rsachi on 30 Dec 2013, 09:44, edited 1 time in total.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Off the bat, I respect Dr Vishweshwaran on the Veena very much. I also enjoy Nirmala Rajasekhar and Ashwin Anand.

Mic as in AIR studio is fine, contact mike is not so good.
Also plucking with fingers, nails and clips all have very different sounds.

shripathi_g
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by shripathi_g »

RSachi, that was divine. The recording was excellent too. If you happen to have the rest of the concert, can you upload it?

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Sripathi, You're welcome, but I am not clear if you want the rest of the Veena concert of Vid. Kalpakam Mami?

Uday,
Somanathapur near Mysore has similar stone carvings of similar antiquity as Belur and Halebid.
The sculpture figurines are made of soft stone and perhaps the image stone portion wouldn't support a large 'kudam' . Here is a Veena sans the resonant chamber, perhaps for this reason (you can see something broken off):
Image

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

Thanks Sachi for the valuable remarks.

Our Karnatic music presenatation is to very large extent 'saahitya' based. Thus even during an instrumental music concert, people look for the text. This is not very relevant in Hindustani music where dependence on sahitya is minimal. The virtuosity of the 'vaadyakar' gets highlighted. The term 'gayaki ansh' or style seems to have originated in the North and invariably used in Hindustani music.


Don't we expect the kriti played by an instrumentalist as good as its vocal rendering (Paadaraa maathiriye irundhatu, sahityam appadiye kettadhu etc). Does this constitute the 'gayaki' style in karnatic music?

Jayanthi Kumaresh, of course, explained that in karnatic kriti rendering, different techniques are adopted to bring out the scope of the vadya. She played the pallavi of 'aparaadhamula' (rasaali) to demonstrate this. It was nice and 'free flowing'.

I felt, our insistence to 'get human voice from instrument' might stand in the way of appreciation, especially of a plucked instrument like Veena. Let us listen to Veena for 'Veena Naadam' and we get a lot of it from artists like Jayanti, Prof Visweswaran etc.

I did make a mention of Ganesh-Kumaresh duo's 'Ragapravaaham' presentations in kutcheris where they render a well laid out piece with raga and rhythmic components. Luckily they were present at the event and explained that the idea is to explore the boundaries of a given raga which gives absolute freedom to the artist.

I would still invite our forumites to enlighten more on the 'Gayaki' aspect.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Gayaki is a necessary but not a sufficient condition to approximate the vocal rendition of a song...
People like Lalgudi and even Emani had worked at creating syllabic effects. But voice is voice,, instrument is instrument.

Did you listen to SB lecdem I had linked before, where he says the vainika should sit side by side with the vocalist..!?
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... er#p237246

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Jayanthi Kumaresh, of course, explained that in karnatic kriti rendering, different techniques are adopted to bring out the scope of the vadya. She played the pallavi of 'aparaadhamula'
Right, I recall that now. Her point was that one needs to play the song line just like how a vocalist will so the audience can relate to it. Then (say) the 4th and 5th sangathis can go beyond what is done typically with voice since the instrument is more capable or differently capable. She was also rhetorically asking 'if not for that, people can as well go listen to the same song sung by a vocalist'. She did not say this but I would extend it by saying that an instrumentalist is not bound by any vocal tradition for niraval. They still need to pattern it like a niraval of those purported vocal lines but have more freedom and can stretch it to the limits afforded by the instrument.

So it is Gayaki+

About the specific point that carnatic audience expects lyrics, the extent to which it is deep in our psyche is clear in an instrumental RTP. Instrumentalists like to give lyrics to those pallavi lines, even sing it for a round or two to get the audience oriented with the lyrics in their mind when they play. But it should be said that in RTP the emphasis on lyrics is obviously not as much as a composition.

I think HM also places emphasis on lyrics but in a different way than CM. Drupad and Kayal have different traditions of course, devotional and romantic/emotional respectively but the difference seems to be that the bandishes ( of various sizes from small to reasonably long like 8 lines ) are associated with a particular garana/school. I would actually like to know if an instrumentalist of a particular garana starts off with playing the bandish that is well known within that school and whether the audience typically recognizes that as a particular bandish.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

A couple of years ago, in a tribute concert to Bhimsen Joshi in Blr, Shahid Pervez announced before the second item that he would play it in Gayaki shaili, given the South Indian preference for Gayaki vs. Tantrakari. He went on to play a large number of impressive vocal phrases in his masterly way.

Gayaki for instruments is a bigger deal in South India.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Gayaki is NOT lyrics. That Jayanthi said so is surprising.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Listen to this, it's to me not gayaki
: http://raa.ag/t44206

cacm
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by cacm »

[quote="Rsachi"]Off the bat, I respect Dr Vishweshwaran on the Veena very much. I also enjoy Nirmala Rajasekhar and Ashwin Anand....I HAVE NO COMMENTS ABOUT "ENJOYING" TO ANY ONE. MY COMMENTS STRICTLY HAVE TO DO WITH THE TECHNICAL SOUND PRODUCED.
Mic as in AIR studio is fine, contact mike is not so good.......NOW THAT WE AGREE ON CONTACT MIC LET ME STATE THAT I HAVE EXAMINED THE AIR MICS & STATE AGAIN THEY ARE NOT THAT GREAT. OF COURSE THEY ARE SUPERIOR TO THE USUAL SABHA MICS WHICH ARE INVARIABLY BAD.
I AGREE WITH PMI'S STATEMENTS IN THIS REGARD ABOUT NO MIC. HE EVEN USED TO HAVE A VISITING CARD SAYING "AVAILABLE FOR MIC LESS CONCERTS" AT ONE TIME.
Also plucking with fingers, nails and clips all have very different sounds......AGREE.
INCIDENTALLY PL EXCUSE ME FOR USING CAPS. I AM NEITHER ANGRY OR DISRESPECTFUL. REGS, VKV :-@ :-ss

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Sir, seriously, I request you to listen to the artistes I mentioned, I have shared their music in the Sunday brunch thread!

shripathi_g
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by shripathi_g »

Rsachi, yes, Kalpagam mami's concert. I've listened to her on and off in the past on youtube and loved her music. Btw, whose disciple is Ashwin Anand?

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Ashwin is a disciple of Late H V Krishnamurthy and now under Dr Vedavalli.

The concert of Kalpakkam Mami is in Sangeethapriya archive. If you can't find it I will help you!

shripathi_g
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by shripathi_g »

Found it. Thanks. Looks like a navagraha krithi concert.

Enna_Solven
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Enna_Solven »

gAyaki or no gAyaki, listen to SB's kAmbhoji. Veena is wonderful in the right hands, whatever be the style.

http://stream.sangeethapriya.org/main.view?id=448

sangeethapriya: asokan/CARNATIC/047-Balchander/

rsachi sir, I closed the browser tab as soon as I heard drums with veena. :((

shripathi_g
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by shripathi_g »

That's a super-duper Kamboji and incidentally the piece that got me hooked onto Balachander's music. Any idea on who the accompanists are?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Rsachi wrote:Gayaki is NOT lyrics. That Jayanthi said so is surprising.
Well, don't go by me. I also recall her saying earlier in the lecture that there are different methods of playing the veena and she mentioned gayaki in that context as well.

So, what is it?

Enna_Solven
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Enna_Solven »

shripathi_g wrote:That's a super-duper Kamboji and incidentally the piece that got me hooked onto Balachander's music. Any idea on who the accompanists are?
No idea. There is no info in the tags.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Well, as I quoted her (what the HM guy said to her) : gayaki is a musician expressing his musical idea by singing, not with his voice but with his instrument. The musical idea is born in the mind as a singable phrase.

When I hear SB, it is clear to me he is singing. When I hear Emani play certain songs like Gaanamurte and Gnanamosagarada, I know he is singing. (He was very fond of singing vocally and then playing on the Veena the Todi kriti Srikrishnam Bhaja).

But when I hear so many other vainikas, eg the one piece I linked above, they are playing the veena to produce instrumental music. They or anyone else just wouldn't be able to vocalize those phrases or lines without looking ridiculous. So those vainikas are tantrakari. That is ALSO music, sometimes good and sometimes ...
Playing a harmonium, harmonica, piano, etc., or listening to rock or jazz or heavy metal, you know they are NOT vocal music. Mandolin was a tantrakari instrument, Shrinivas invented gayaki on it (largely helped by redesign and electric pickup mic)

All raaga music is originally vocal music, and tantrakari is what morphed into pure instrumental (=non-gayaki).
Musicians largely non-gayaki in their approach: RK Suryanarayana, Chittibabu, ..they explored the instrument's potential with using multi-string play, strumming, playing a lot of tala strings, etc.
Here is a Venn.
Image
Most fusion, most orchestral, most rhythm-based music is non-gayaki.

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

A benediction from Mahavishnu for veena's sensitivity and subtlety:

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 92#p254376

harimau
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by harimau »

Rsachi wrote:
Somanathapur near Mysore has similar stone carvings of similar antiquity as Belur and Halebid.
The sculpture figurines are made of soft stone and perhaps the image stone portion wouldn't support a large 'kudam' . Here is a Veena sans the resonant chamber, perhaps for this reason (you can see something broken off):
Resonant chamber? Can anyone point out to me the resonant chamber in ekanta veenas (carved out of a solid piece of wood)?

Stop by at any music store and look at the veenas. Mostly they are ekanta veenas nowadayas.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Sachi. I think I get what you are saying. Though I am probably still not 100% clear.

Given your examples, limiting us to CM veena artists, are these two defining characteristics?

a) Emphasis on continuity in playing phrases an indicator of gayaki style? Drawing a parallel, I am reminded of carnatic flutists comparing the so called mAli bANi with the thuthakaram that existed before. I can hear that difference in Palladam Sanjeeva Rao or Thirupamburam Swaminatha Pillai. These two employ a technique that are not as continous as mAli's technique.

b) Your chitti babu example makes me think that Non-gayaki classical veena artists go beyond gayaki. Not that they do not play continuously to be consistent with vocal, but they like to go beyond what voice can do. In that sense non-gayaki artists are gayaki+

Am I directionally correct?

venkatakailasam
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by venkatakailasam »

Listen to a concert a day..any time
Concert 62- veena

Sangita Kalanidhi, Isai Perarignar Dr. S. Ramanathan
(1917-1988)
Listen at ...
http://shanmukhapriya.blogspot.in/

Rsachi
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Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Yes, VKM, you're getting my drift however
Continuity describes the sound, gayaki describes a phrase, which would have been sung by a vocalist, with continuity, modulation, nuance, emphasis and accent etc.

Yes those that play non-gayaki in parts can very well play gayaki in parts.. Emani would be the best example. Chitti Babu was his student who made the veena sound more sexy.

Harimau, we have a couple of veenas at home, yes they are carved out of a single piece of wood but with a large round chamber I call a resonant space. My point about that photo is to say that we should not use sculpture poses from the past to decry the current Veena design as a recent usurper. I personally think it has withstood the test of time in the last 400 years and perhaps did so as the mainstream design for long periods before also. The other designs were minor contenders.
It calls for a very elastic vocabulary and imagination to argue that the violin was the original veena!!!!!

uday_shankar
Posts: 1475
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by uday_shankar »

Excellent discussion…wish I had more time to participate…
Rsachi wrote: gayaki describes a phrase, which would have been sung by a vocalist, with continuity, modulation, nuance, emphasis and accent etc.
Precisely. Indeed this is the crux of what is meant by gayaki ang. Vk, I think this sentence bears reading several times over. All of the elements mentioned above, not just continuity, are important.
Rsachi wrote:to decry the current Veena design as a recent usurper.
Since that picture was addressed to me, if that’s your reading of my motive to post some thoughts earlier about the historical usage of the term “vina”, then it’s quite unfortunate. Rsachi, I absolutely don’t have the time to respond to any number of complete mischaracterizations of my motives by you, in other threads too, request a little thoughtfulness.
harimau wrote:Resonant chamber? Can anyone point out to me the resonant chamber in ekanta veenas (carved out of a solid piece of wood)?
There has never been an acoustic stringed instrument in history without a resonator, i.e., a hollow body, usually with an aperture(s) to the outside in which case it becomes a classic Helmholtz resonator. In the case of the ekantha veena too there’s a hollow body. A piece of string suspended over a solid wooden block sans hollow body will be barely audible, example, electric guitar. The construction of any lute (i.e., vina, guitar, violin, sitar, etc..) consist of a) string suspended over bridge b) bridge coupled to soundboard (what the bridge rests on) c) soundboard coupled to a hollow body or resonator.
Rsachi wrote: Use of a bow in the violin reduces closeness to that extent to the vibrating strings. Use of amplification etc. Is each a step away from closeness.
I don’t agree with this. The bow is an integral part of the instrument, just happens to be physically separate. Both bow and fingerboard are held as closely to the person as the vina. In fact, as regards extent of expressivity, bowing is the stuff of violin legend. In comparison, the pluck of a vina is limited in its scope. Rarely do people talk about the “splendid pluck” of a certain vainika or in general of any plucked string instrument player! But volumes are written about bowing techniques. It’s OK to state one’s preferences, but I am not thrilled about such “logical/ scientific” explanations rationalizing one’s preferences. A simple "I love vina above all else" would suffice. I do too :). Taking the same line, I could argue, for example, that nothing is more subtle than the bamboo flute…not only do the fingers caress it so intimately, its sound is modulated by that most primal of forces, the breath, prAna ! OMG, what could be more subtle than that?! I do believe that the bamboo flute has the highest aesthetic return for design simplicity. And Sri Krishna holds it in his hands. However, I would not therefore imply that it is "most subtle".
Rsachi wrote: (largely helped by redesign and electric pickup mic)
As far as I know there was no redesign of the "electric mandolin" which is identical in design to an electric guitar, except it has five strings instead of six. Srinivas' musical genius has made this into a popular concert instrument but one of the pioneers in electric guitar (practically identical to the electric mandolin in all respects as far as CM is concerned) was a certain Sukumar Prasad in the 70's and 80's.

Rsachi
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Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by Rsachi »

Uday, as we get to know each other better, you will realise I also have no preference or patience with mischaracterisation and pseudo-logic. Whatever my limitations, I am responding to what I read from either you or anyone else.
I have heard not from you but others that violin (Ravanastra) predated the veena and it was only Ravivarma who elevated the present Saraswati veena to its exalted status. I disagree using whatever logic at my command.

Yes, you're right about the flute. I simply love it and celebrate your efforts with chitravenu as I understand it better.
But I opine that veena is the subtlest. That's the burden of this thread anyway. And I did ask others like you who know better for your thoughts.

Thank you for responding.

uday_shankar
Posts: 1475
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Veena - the subtlest musical instrument

Post by uday_shankar »

Much of the "gayaki" efforts on the vina, or any other instrument, are post electronic amplification.

In fact, the exploration of gamakams in general for both vocal AND instrumental, has shot up in the last few decades because modulation can be carried by way of amplification. In fact I would wager, although can't be proven, that the Trinity sang their songs in a far more unmodulated, gamakam-minimalist kind of way than their modern interpreters :).

To get an idea of vina playing styles in the early 20th century, here are a couple examples of two legendary vainikas - one from Mysore and one from Thanjavur...

Veena Seshanna:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrVYlx3MUX8

Veena Dhanammal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P-qRCJaECE

And to complete the picture, here's Palladam Sanjeeva Rao, disciple of the legendary Sarabha Shastri, playing Giripai in the best "gaayaki" style of flute as it existed in the early 20th century:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U8H67-u3UE

There's something immensely poignant and beautiful about these playing styles but they would have to be rejected as sub-standard by today's level of expectations.

When playing styles have evolved so much in the past few decades, what is the need to cling to the notion that some pristine, immaculate design for the vina has been frozen since antiquity ?!

The great spiritual giant, Muthuswamy Dikshithar, played the vina and one can sense the stately, majestic gait of the vina in his compositions. Kalpagam maami's playing has been able to capture some of that divinity. That said, I really believe there are so many design changes that can be done to improve the vina in terms of a) fretting/tuning b) tonal accuracy between strings c) balancing sustain versus strike volume d) choice of shruti (BTW I suspect MD and others played at a much higher shruti). Many of these issues have been addressed brilliantly in the sitar, particuarly the Vilayat Khan type of sitar, which is a marvel of acoustic instrument design, comparable to the violin . The current vina design (not the instrument) is a distant also rans compared to the sitar and other north Indian instruments like the Sarod and Miraj Tambura.

I will end my post with one of my most favorite pieces of music ever, the darbari kanada by Vilayat Khan. Particularly listen to the Gat in this recording which 24 minutes into the recording. What's most fascinating is that there's no separate tambura. The sitar has four non-playing main strings, i.e., apart from the 11 or 12 sympathetic strings and the two main playing strings (of which only one, tuned to Ma, is played on 90% of the time), tuned like the tambura. By defly strumming them interleaved to his melody (gosh how does he do that, the sheer technical mastery!), Khan Saheb gives the impression of an amazing assembly of strings. Finally, the icing on the cake, there's no electronic pick up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0w_1cOCe8s

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