Sruti for male voice

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 01 Mar 2007, 23:54

What is the sruti to be used by male voice? Is there any reason that they should use around 1 kattai only? If the person can sing at 4 kattai comfortably (meaning that they can go upto ati tara sthai shadja easily), should they then sing at that 4 kattai level instead of the norm of 1 kattai or so? One advantage I see is that would allow a male and a female singer to sing together. Are there currently any such male and femate artiste singing together with the same pitch?

On the other hand, I read articles saying that so and so spoiled his male voice while using a higher pitch to suit lady students (see under Vidwans --> T.M.Thyagarajan) . Is that really detrimental to the voice in the long run? How true is that?

ravi2006 · Post by **ravi2006** » 02 Mar 2007, 09:07

There is natural variation in the range of male (as well as female voices). In the past, during the mikeless era, there were male singers like Musiri, Kittappa, Thyagaraja Bhagavatar etc who sang at 4-kattai or higher without giving any hint of undue strain. So presumably it can be done.

However, to sing in that high range needs the correct vocal technique to avoid causing harm, ie giving the extra support from the diaphragm rather than straining the vocal cords. I have heard people say that DK Jayaraman used to sing at his sister DK Pattammal's high pitch when accompanying her, which damaged his voice in the long term. At the moment, there is apparently an epidemic in Japan of people developing nodules of the vocal cords, due to the craze for singing high-pitched Karaoke there. So I guess it's not a good idea to stray beyond one's own natural range.

I haven't heard of any contemporary male-female duo who sing together at the same pitch like DKJ and DKP used to. In all the ones I've heard, like Sriram Parashuram/Anuradha Sriram and Trichur Ramachandran/Charumati Ramachandran, the man sings one octave below the lady.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Mar 2007, 13:00

the man sings one octave below the lady.

I want to know about the numbering convention for kattais in such cases. If the lady sings at 4 kattai, what will be kattai for the man? Simple transposition will yield negative kattai numbers, will it not?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 02 Mar 2007, 13:48

Maybe there could be a Sa-Pa alignment - but that would be 1.5 kattai (v/v 4 for female), would it not?

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 02 Mar 2007, 14:07

if you are a grown up male and if a lady teaches you either you have to shout or she has to go low. this will result in spoilage of both voices.
the purpose of kattai is to give allowance to the singer to sing in his speaking voice. this is the speciality of indian especially karnatic music.
the male voice starts at 5 and settles at one. remains in 1 till about 35 and goes down further then onwards. ( but for a few scissor cutting noiced voices). if the male prefers singing in kattai above 1 when he is between 16 and 35 then it is quite evident that he is not giving enough stress in the voice that is required for CM and is mazhuppifying.
about the male and female singing together- the best example is 'pattikkada pattanama' song. when LR Eswari finishes before TMS starts with 'ennai mamannu koopudura' the music director changes the sruti to facilitate TMS' singing.
sirkazhi has done duet with lady voice in the lady's sruti. this the male in my experience can do for some time and not always.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Mar 2007, 19:58

vasanthakokilam wrote:
the man sings one octave below the lady.
I want to know about the numbering convention for kattais in such cases. If the lady sings at 4 kattai, what will be kattai for the man? Simple transposition will yield negative kattai numbers, will it not?

the average sruthi (sa) of a male is not an octave below but is like sa - pa distance.
Average male sruthi is 1 kattai, and average female sruthi is 4.5-5. If 1 kattai is Sa, then 5 kattai is Pa.

Hence the singing one octave below only happens at the ends of octave. If a male and female is singing lets say at the (typical) female's sruthi - then she starts going closer to tara-stayi (say N2 and higher), the typical male would have trouble and would have to sing an octave lower.

If they were singing at the typical male sruthi, then when near the madyya-stayi shadjam and lower (say R2 and lower), the typical female would have trouble and would have to sing an octave higher (you see this KVN's daughter when she accompanied him in the later stages of his career)

IIRC, Here is how the kattai numbering goes

1 kattai => C => (let us pick as) S
1.5 => C# => R1
2 => D => R2
2.5 => D# => G2
3 => E => G3
4 => F => M1
4.5 => F# => M2
5 => G => P
5.5 => G# => D1
6 => A => D2
6.5 => A# => N2
7 => B => N3
8/1 => C => S

Note the jumps 3->4 and 7->8. They correspond to equivalent "jumps" (if you will) in the kattai assignments follow western key assignments. Or in other terms the jumps correspond to successive white keys on a piano/keyboard rather than a black following by white (if you started with C key).

I believe this western concept is borrowed in CM w.r.t sruthi settings because harmoniums if i remember correctly. I would surmise that prior to harmoniums sruthi settings probably did not follow this numbering scheme.

BTW, TMS in his early days could sing at a pretty high sruthi as per the norm those days.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Mar 2007, 21:35

Usually the woman accompanies the man, who is the lead singer (DKP/DKJ was an exception, but then DKJ was a boy). Most often the woman will keep quiet when she cannot sing in unison rather than sounding a discordant note. Again the male would let the woman carry on at high octaves rather than trying to shriek! after all
samEna gIyatE iti sangItaM
grAma skalitAt tadEva bhavati sangrAmaM |

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 02 Mar 2007, 22:06

I have heard what arunk has described in duo concerts and group singing. Sometimes Gayatri of R&G sings one octave higher.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Mar 2007, 22:20

brinda-muktha also employ this

Arun

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Mar 2007, 23:14

It is called singing 'seconds' ('fourths' can also be done) - Smt. MSS and Radha used to do the same on occasion, with Smt. Radha singing in the higher octave.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Mar 2007, 23:23

ravi - i thought seconds and fourths are related to harmony where you do sing a second-tone (R2) or fourth-tone (lower-pa for your sa i think rather than ma for your sa) etc. apart.

Singing anything other than octave apart, i think would not gell well in CM where as it will have a dampening effect on tonic. Besides it just wont work as well with gamakas which do not transpose equally across the octave (i.e. gamaka for a certain swara usually cannot apply to any other swara). So you cant always sing the exact same "main melody" transposed and not have an undesirable effect on the raga being portrayed.

Arun

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Mar 2007, 23:28

Arun,
You are probably right, but once, when my nurse (who has been part of an award winning barbershop quartette for ages) heard a clip of Brinda and Mukta singing an octave apart, she called it 'singing seconds' so I assumed that is was singing an octave apart...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Mar 2007, 23:31

i am trying to google info - One would expect a million articles on this, but zilch so far that spells these out clearly

!

I do know seconds, thirds, fourths, fifths etc. all take advantage of different harmonic spacing. I dont know which one would apply for "octave apart".

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Mar 2007, 00:07

Good point Arun!
Film music is mostly gamaka free and hence we do not notice discordance!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Mar 2007, 00:59

Arun: Thanks for that. Check if my understanding is right. In Duo singing and group singing, everyone, male and female, sing at the same kattai and adjust the octave when they reach higher or lower swaras that is hard or impossible to reach.

How about film songs which invole a male and a female singer. How do they arrange the sruthi/kattai there? While singing their individual parts and while singing together?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Mar 2007, 01:14

vasanthakokilam wrote:In Duo singing and group singing, everyone, male and female, sing at the same kattai and adjust the octave when they reach higher or lower swaras that is hard or impossible to reach.

Yes. Usually it would be one category which will have to do this (as typically in group singing sruthi is set to closer to 1 or closer to 5.

How about film songs which invole a male and a female singer. How do they arrange the sruthi/kattai there? While singing their individual parts and while singing together?

Film songs may not stick to one sruthi (i.e. transpose keys). But if you notice even in duets, the places where the male and female sing together are not that common - they come in select spots usually when they come back to the main line. It is possible that is picked in both's comfort zone, and also each individual's pieces are in their comfort zones . But even so in general i think, the key/sruthi is set to suit the comfort of the male singer (cultural prejudices

). This could be one reason where in some duets the female voice sounds too high pitched. The exception maybe in earlier times where male sruthis were higher.

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 03 Mar 2007, 01:50

arunk wrote:
How about film songs which invole a male and a female singer. How do they arrange the sruthi/kattai there? While singing their individual parts and while singing together?
Film songs may not stick to one sruthi (i.e. transpose keys). But if you notice even in duets, the places where the male and female sing together are not that common - they come in select spots usually when they come back to the main line. It is possible that is picked in both's comfort zone, and also each individual's pieces are in their comfort zones . But even so in general i think, the key/sruthi is set to suit the comfort of the male singer (cultural prejudices ). This could be one reason where in some duets the female voice sounds too high pitched. The exception maybe in earlier times where male sruthis were higher.

Arun

Even though there might be cases where the shruti changes in instrumental interludes in film songs , a given song is normally in one shruti. And in duets, it is almost always at the male shruti, with the female voice singing in a false voice. All female playback singers get trained to sing in a false voice

And that is the reason why when S Janaki or Chitra sing a kriti, it looks more like a film song, and less of a classical kriti, IMO.

-Ramakriya

meena · Post by **meena** » 03 Mar 2007, 02:00

All female playback singers get trained to sing in a false voice

ramakriya
what is a "false voice" ?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Mar 2007, 02:05

ramakriya true. BTW, keyshifts are not actually that rare as they come in with all the western influence - but they are probably transient. But in general yes, film songs are one sruthi - set to male voice's comfort

meena - false voice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsetto

Arun

sridevi · Post by **sridevi** » 03 Mar 2007, 02:09

IMO not only the film songs , all the light classical songs ( like bhavageethe, janapada geethe) it is sung in a ridiculously high pitch (May be I label it ridiculous since I cannot sing in that high pitch

Sour grapes

)
In fact while growing up I was made to feel that I had no business singing since I could not sing in 6 kattai then (or for that mattter now) 4.5 or 5 is optimal for me. However, I am glad that I continued to learn and sing inspite of many incidents. One lady , asked me to just mouth the song for a group song since my voice was too "gruff" - as she put it. ah the nerve!
As ramakriya pointed out, when krithis are sung in this high pitch it sounds filmy although it is a classical piece. The false voice probably does not permit the fine gamakas that is absolutely essential.

meena · Post by **meena** » 03 Mar 2007, 02:29

arun thanks

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 Mar 2007, 02:33

Meena,
Classic example of false pitch while singing for me was Vani Jairam - her speaking voice seemed many octaves lower!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Mar 2007, 02:39

the list of falsetto singers listed in the wiki site is interesting (but no vani jayaram or janaki

) but some i may not have expected.

Also look at this footnote on that page regarding Axl Rose (the Guns N Roses lead screamer):

^ Review/Rock; Guns 'n' Roses and Personal Thorns By PETER WATROUS. Published: June 19, 1991 - "when he moved up toward the falsetto range, he sounded like a small rabbit about to lose a fight with a big dog" link

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Mar 2007, 03:15

On this false voice thing, a non-indian colleague of mine stumbled on to the Saturday morning Indian programs while searching for Cartoons..He liked all the beautiful indian females dancing around and he wondered why all the female singing voices are so high. Some of Latha M. songs are really shreiking high.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 03 Mar 2007, 03:36

There is natural variation in the range of male (as well as female voices). In the past, during the mikeless era, there were male singers like Musiri, Kittappa, Thyagaraja Bhagavatar etc who sang at 4-kattai or higher without giving any hint of undue strain. So presumably it can be done.

I also read Madurai Mani Iyer used to sing in 4 kattai but had to bring it down with his age. So while this seems feasible, no one seems to be trying it now-a-days. So, maybe it has gone out of vogue /fashion now.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 03 Mar 2007, 04:10

I am quite fascinated by two voices coming forth in unison. Of course, we all know the magical effect when your voice hits the sruti box/tambura sound, I similarly find that when I am practicing with my own voice + my taped voice coming over from speaker, this produces a very pleasing musical effect.

We have of course quite a number of brothers' and sisters' combinations who all complement and sound very good. But will the same thing be sure for male/female combination? I am not sure about the voice effect even if they are singing in the same sruti. I am presuming from what I have heard in movie duets, that this is not going to be anything sensational. I have something telling me that the frequency list that the male and female voice produce are very different and because of it, the effect is not anything to sing about.

I have not heard DKJ/DKP combination. Someone who has heard that can pass on some comment.

vijesh.r.c. · Post by **vijesh.r.c.** » 04 Mar 2007, 21:19

even once,I was in a doubt regarding this. but I cleared this doubt by visiting the senior most artists at my native. I am giving the concerts and i keep the sruthi for 4#kattai and even 5 also i can sing strainlessly at this pitch and my voice get toned to this pitch. So here the audiences accepted my voice and I am performing at various places.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 05 Mar 2007, 16:09

http://rapidshare.com/files/19474756/TM ... m.mp3.html

clip from a duet of TMT and PSN
Neyveli and OST too have sung a duet

annapoorne · Post by **annapoorne** » 05 Mar 2007, 17:13

In my experience,I am convenient with hearing even a four-hour long concert of a lady artist whose pitch is anywhere between 4 and 5, but somehow, if the pitch is more meaning 51/2 to 6 or 61/2, you can at the best hear 2 songs.....it becomes a strain on your ears.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 05 Mar 2007, 22:49

Is it difficult for someone singing at >5 to reduce their pitch to 4 , 4.5 ?

I call them "keech" voiced- though some sound sweet and unstrained.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Mar 2007, 23:04

Suji Ram wrote:Is it difficult for someone singing at >5 to reduce their pitch to 4 , 4.5 ?

it depends on their range - in this case in mandra stayi at 5.

If at 5, they are just-able to pull of mandra-madyama (needed for many ragas even early on as in AbhOgi varnam), then at 4.5 or 4, it may be below their range and so they may have trouble (or not like they way they handle it at those sruthis).

Arun

Aravind · Post by **Aravind** » 07 Mar 2007, 23:19

This is a topic that I have struggled with a lot. Having started my music lessons at the age of 30, being a male and having a female teacher were no incentives to learn carnatic music. But I won't say my two year struggle has not gone in vain. I am at the level of learning krithis now.

I initially started with 5 1/2 which was my teaches sruthi, but I found myself singing an octave apart. I could not sing the lower notes (kaatu dan vandudu:D). Then my teacher decided that we should try 1 kattai first and gradually improve. I tried practicing all varisais in 1 kattai for 2 months. Still lower notes were hard to hit and hence we escalated to 1 1/2, that seemed to be a comfortable sruthi for me.

But recently I was trying to learn a song from one of SRJ's recordings and found myself way more comfortable singing along. Looks like he sings in 2. So I am going to try practicing in 2 for a while.

Question ? - Is this a good approach? Or am I just making my so called singing voice totally unpleasing.

Would it be a good idea to list some of the prominent male singers and the sruthi they sing in. That way when amateurs like me try to sing along they would be more aware of the sruthi the singer uses.

Any guidance in this matter would be of immense help.

Thanks
Aravind

hsuvarna · Post by **hsuvarna** » 07 Mar 2007, 23:34

Any human when normally (neither speaking up or down) speaks, that level, is it to be taken as sa or pa?
If so, should one try to maintain only that as the shruti?
Long back I read in the net about this but forgot.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Mar 2007, 23:50

aravind - if at sruthi 2, you can hit mandra-ma to tara-pa then IMO that would be your best sruthi. If you cannot hit tara-pa, then 1.5 would be better. For me at 1.5, i can barely hit tara-pa (if i concentrate

!), but i still have that as my sruthi with the hopes of getting it more reliably over time (but see below!). I can do tara-pa to tara-ma comfortably at 1-kattai, but i like singing at the higher sruthi 1.5 as that seems to make the timbre of the voice relatively brighter - but that is just me! In fact, i like the timbre even better at 2, but there is no chance of that for me!

hsuvarna - speaking sruthi would/should be 'sa' and not 'pa'. However, i dont think there is any hard rule that your speaking pitch must be your sruthi. It can be higher (or lower)- as long as the above minimum range can be traversed.

I have read that practice at (slightly?) higher sruthis i srecommended as it helps expand your range. This I would presume applies more to younger folks whose vocal cords are still developing - i am thus excluded in that list

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 08 Mar 2007, 00:55

arunk wrote:I have read that practice at (slightly?) higher sruthis i srecommended as it helps expand your range. This I would presume applies more to younger folks whose vocal cords are still developing - i am thus excluded in that list

Arun

I have seen the reverse too - Practicing at a lower Sruti, (so that there is less strain on the vocal cords) and performing at a slightly higher Sruti.

-Ramakriya

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 08 Mar 2007, 01:19

Aravind

Nice to read your post. Now, I am exactly in the same situation as you. Male singer (although not as 'young' as you) learning from lady teacher.

Initially I used to learn (along with school going girls) from a Veena teacher. The Veena teacher who is a male, used to set the sruthi at 2 or 2.5 kattais depending on where his veena is tuned to accomodate the mix of males and females in the class. But both me and the girsl struggled to even sing 'Sa' and lower notes at that 2.5 kattai. But the teacher kept saying that sruthi does not matter. You can always adjust as per what you would like to do. This was perhaps beacause he was an instrumentalist and you can always adjust instrument easily. However, this is contrary to what I have heard and known. A friend who teaches music came to our house and she mentioned that it is very important to set the sruthi so that you are comfortable singing the three sthayis. She set up trying to find out my ideal sruthi - exactly like what Arun K has mentioned -that one should be able to traverse the three octaves easily, at least upto tara P and mandara P or M. She arrived at a sruthi of 5 kattais for me! At that time I was very surprised as we all know the normal kattai for males is around 1 or possibly 2. I was not very sure about the results as I was apprehensive that the voice might not sound 'right'. Another friend of mine said I am a male and arrived at my ideal sruthi as B. ( Is that callled -1 kattai?) Overall I was very confused and I used 2.5 kattais D#, which is what my veena teacher ( who is a male) used to keep as a compromise. But overall I struggled to sing.

Then I shifted my teacher to the lady teacher mentioned above. This time it was private tuition - one on one. She initially asked me what Sruthi I sing. I mentioned I am not sure but I practice at 1 kattai. But based on the way I sing, she said I can go a little higher. And finally I ended up at 4.5 kattais. And I am very comfortable singing at that sruthi. I am able to go upto tara P (and occassionally even touch tara S in early mornings). 4 Kattai would be ideal for me but since the teacher sings at 4.5 it is better for novice like me to adjust instead of her having to spoil her voice. I now practice at 4.5 kattai

Aravind, 2 kattai is perfectly ok for a male as long as you are comfortable and traverse the three octaves as much as possible. I think preference will be to tara sthayi as compared to mandara sthayi as there is more time spent in tara sthayi than mandara sthayi. Yes you can modify the Quality or Timbre by varying the sruthi but then the ability to sing the three octaves comes first.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 08 Mar 2007, 01:33

May I second Aravind's request? Sruthi at which the artiste sing? I can pick out some of the ones from bookIs I have and post it tomorrow.

I have read in V.Sriram's 'Carnatic Summer' that Musiri sang at 4.5 Kattais

As per this website http://maduraimani.tripod.com/id4.html

Madurai Mani Iyer as young boy sang 5 and half Kattai and in 1934 (age 22) he sang at 4 Kattai.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Mar 2007, 02:13

In olden days the norm was much higher sruthis for males - it was perhaps a cultural thing that has changed over time. In those days i think lower sruthis for males (like MDR) werent "preferred" - sort of the opposite nowadays. Again indicates a cultural preference that seems to have morphed.

But if you have voice that can traverse the reqd range at a high sruthi - go for it!

Arun

Aravind · Post by **Aravind** » 09 Mar 2007, 02:44

Arun, Ramaswany and others, thanks for posting in this thread. Your suggestions help me a lot.

Mostly these days when I see a male keeping a F to G# sruthi they are actually singing in 1/2 or 1/4 kattai. Their F or G# is madhyama sthayi PA rather than SA. (Unlike olden/golden day male singers).

I think the advent of micro phone has played a major role in the sruthi shift of male singers.

Using keyboard to verify the svara sthana helps a lot. (if you are a beginner a keyboard with a transpose function helps a lot).

Please do post the sruthi of artists when you can.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Mar 2007, 03:29

Mostly these days when I see a male keeping a F to G# sruthi they are actually singing in 1/2 or 1/4 kattai. Their F or G# is madhyama sthayi PA rather than SA. (Unlike olden/golden day male singers).

I am confused. If you mean to say that the 'pa' string of the tampura ( or equivalent ) is set to F to G#, then: If Pa is G, then it is 1 kattai, if Pa is G# then it is 1 1/2 kattai, if Pa is F then 'sa' will fall on the A# of the lower octave. Are you saying that the A# of the lower octave is termed 1/4 kattai?

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 09 Mar 2007, 04:11

As I understand it, the male sruthi tends to decline with age, and so it is important to pick as high a sruthi as can be achieved without significant strain. As with any exercise, this requires training. Although each voice is different, I think a good sruthi for most male voices is D (2) - this is the sruthi in which I and my brother practice, but we perform in C# (1.5). Many years ago when singing for TRS Mama, we started a kriti in a sruthi below C, which seemed most comfortable at the time. TRS Mama stopped us, tuned the sruthi to D, and said, "please start again in this sruthi." To refer to Aravind's post - SRJ Mama's most comfortable sruthi has in the past been D# (2.5), and he has insisted that we sing in D since the beginning. The speaking voices of both TRS Mama and SRJ Mama would certainly not be considered high-pitched - its just a result of their rigorous training and the belief that the fidelity of the male voice is significantly improved even by a marginal increase in sruthi.

Im not sure if others on the forum will agree with me, but I have noticed that among western musicians, Country singers have a voice culture most suited to Carnatic music. They seem to sing the higher ranges with no evidence of strain, almost as if still in their normal speaking range. Also, their sense of sruthi is typically impeccable.

Ashwin

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 15 Oct 2008, 00:07

14th Oct, 2008

Arunk gave this table in Msg No # 6 dt : 2007-03-02 19:28 :

Here is how the kattai numbering goes

1 kattai => C => (let us pick as) S
1.5 => C# => R1
2 => D => R2
2.5 => D# => G2
3 => E => G3
4 => F => M1
4.5 => F# => M2
5 => G => P
5.5 => G# => D1
6 => A => D2
6.5 => A# => N2
7 => B => N3
8/1 => C => S

Note the jumps 3->4 and 7->8.

I have seen one Radel's "Magic Dx" Shruti Box, which has 19 Semitones' settings starting from the Previous Octave's A , ... the Central Octave, ... and then to D# of the Higher Octave. (3 + 12 + 4 = 19 Semitones)

Let us consider the Central 12 Semitones ie, the Main Central Octave region. Are these C, C#, ... A, A#, B of the Central Octave referring to an equivalent C4 to B4 Middle Octave of the Ideal Piano ?

If not, then, which Octave ?

If it does not coincide end to end exactly with any single "octave-zone" of the Ideal Piano like say, exactly Middle or exactly Tenor or exactly Soprano etc, what are the absolute frequencies of the 12 Semitones of the Central Octave Region in a Standard Magic Dx model ?
(To give an example of absolute freqs, we all know that in an Ideal Piano, the Middle Octave is from C4 = 261.626 Hz to B4 = 523.251 Hz.)

***********

In the same Magic Dx model, I would like to know the function of :
a) the "Tone" knob :
I assume that this knob will change the pitch. What range ?

Assume that F# setting has been chosen to start with.

Under what state(s) of the "Mode" setting does the Tone knob become alive ?
(Mode has 3 states : Normal, Fine Tune, Tempo)

If Mode needs to be set to "Fine Tune" for the Tone knob to come alive (just my guess, pl confirm), I would like to know the +/- range of this "Fine Tune" width (in Cents or in absolute frequency ?) of the Tone Knob for each Semitone setting. (We all know that : 1 Semitone = 100 Cents ; 1 Octave = 1200 Cents)

What / when is Tempo Mode used for ?

b) There is one more setting labelled "PA" with 4 states : PA, MA, NI, OFF.
How do we make this setting "operational" ?

Thanks

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Oct 2008, 00:31

I dont know what exact octave is matched by that model. But does it really matter if C is 261.626 or 523.252 or 130.813? It is still used by e.g. a male to match to to 1-kattai (and he will always sing it in the 130.813 range).

The Tone (assuming it is same as that in my sruthi box) does not change pitch. It changes the "timbre" basically it is like increasing treble to accentuate higher frequencies/partials.

The Fine Tune is different from Tone - that would change the pitch (so you could go between 1 and 1.5 kattai etc.).

The tempo is to change the "pace of tampura strum"

The PA/MA/NI/OFF - you press the button above/near that and each press transitions frome one mode to the next:

PA => SA-PA-SA
MA => SA-MA-SA
NI => SA-PA-SA-Ni (??? i know ni here is kakali - but not sure if pa is there. This is used in hindustani music and not in carnatic music)
Off => SA (i.e. no pa and of course no ma either)

Again - there is no need for a singer/instrumentalist to have sa fixed to specific frequencies as in C , C#. It can be anywhere in the spectrum (130.813, or 129, or 131) as long as he/she has a good reference point (i.e. tampura/sruthi-box) establishing a pitch that he/she is comfortable with it (as in exercise the range required). The other instruments (violin, mridangam) can always be tuned up/down to match this and everyone is good to go. As long as all are in tune, it will sound as good as it can be.

Arun

martin · Post by **martin** » 15 Oct 2008, 03:03

About male and female singing together, as I know both of them, immediately Aruna Sairam and Dominique Vellard come to mind. When singing together, they sing from F or kattai 4. Vellard is a high tenor and Arunaji is a lowish lady.
My very first lessons where from a Khyal-singer, who sang from d#-e, or kattai 2,5-3. With my first Dhrupad-teacher we went down to c# or 1,5. Now I sing from Bb or B (6,5-7) even lower for Dhrupad, but for certain medieaval repertoire I may go up to E (3) for Sa.

martin · Post by **martin** » 15 Oct 2008, 03:18

I would propose, to keep some order:

1 kattai:1 note: C sargam: S
2- 1,5 Db R1
2 2 D R2
3- 2,5 Eb G1
3 3 E G2
4 4 F M1
4+ 4,5 F# M2
5 5 G P
6- 5,5 Ab D1
6 6 A D2
7- 6,5 Bb N1
7 7 B N2

going from the basic tenant of respecting the note-names assigned to scalenrs. 1-7, if S is C, R1, no matter how low, has to be derived from D by adding a flat-sign b. likewise G1 comes from E and should not be named D# which is in WCM an augmented 2nd but let's not get into that. If the idea is to express a chromatic scale in numbers, how about applying the same logic?
1; 2-; 2; 3-; 3; 4; 4+; 5; 6-; 6; 7-; 7
The -and a half is simple counting of white keys and what's between them, irrespective of a natural order.

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 15 Oct 2008, 10:23

15th Oct, 2008

Arunk,

This is wrt yr Msg No 43.

Let me ask in a different way :

Assume that you were the manufacturer of a Shruti Box, and that you were offering these 19 Tone settings to the Users.
You would naturally have to "set" these 19 tones to "some prefixed" frequency in Hz, at yr factory - which would then be tested thoroughly by the Testing / Quality Dept etc.

What would those factory-set absolute frequency settings be for each of those 19 tones ?

I know that the immediate reply from those who may like to evade the query, and / or do not know the exact answer, may be something like : "Pl ask Radel."

Yes, I will, but in the rasikas forum, I thought I will get the rough freqs (within say, 100 Cents) and also some analysis of the basis for choosing those freqs / octaves' settings.

***********

Martin,

This Table of yrs in Msg No 45 is better !!
(This answers the kattai query in our emails, in a better way.)

I also like the idea of the "- suffix" and "+ suffix" to distinguish betn "diminished" and "sharp".

***********

To all,

In the context of an improved Kattai / Note Table as suggested by Martin, consider these 5 cases of finer notes :

- Db4 and C#4 : both in ET min 2nd
- Eb4 and D#4 : both in ET min 3rd
- Gb4 and F#4 : both in ET Tritone Point
- Ab4 and G#4 : both in ET min 6th
- Bb4 and A#4 : both in ET min 7th

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%E2%99%AF says :
Thus Gb is slightly lower in pitch (do they mean : lower than F# ?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%E2%99%AF_(musical_note) says :
Thus Eb would be slightly lower in pitch (do they mean : than D# ?).

So, if there is indeed a difference in pitch between these 2 respective finer notes, I would like to know the Cents difference between those 2 finer notes in each of the 5 cases.

Like, for eg, what is the diff in pitch in Cents, between :

Gb4 and F#4 - at the ET Tritone Point

***

As a related analogy, I give below some examples, but in the reverse - ie, of same name, but with diff ratio values - some examples of very close pitches having the same name :

3 close ratios for "Ma" = 45/32, 729/512 and 64/45

Or, even for the Prakrutik Swaram "pa" = 3/2, we have a close cousin ratio at 40/27.

***

On the contrary, if there is absolutely no diff in the pitch values of the 2 finer notes in each of the 5 cases, then my question is :

Why call them with diff names ?

Surely, there should be some basis for calling the same pitch with 2 diff names ??

Thanks

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 15 Oct 2008, 11:23

15th Oct, 2008

These points are specific exclusively to the Shruti Box (Magic Dx), so have put them in a separate msg.

1) Fine Tune :

ArunkÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s Msg No 43 :

Fine Tune is to tune between 1 and 1.5 Kattai etc.

Hello all,

Assume that my base Setting is F# ie, 4+ or Kattai 4.5

Now, I wish to "fine-tune"

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 15 Oct 2008, 18:39

ravi2006 wrote:In the past, during the mikeless era, there were male singers like Musiri, Kittappa, Thyagaraja Bhagavatar etc who sang at 4-kattai or higher without giving any hint of undue strain. So presumably it can be done.

Mikeless era? That's precisely why these singers sang at (around) 4-kaTTai. At higher pitches, our voice becomes louder. Also, it becomes very soft at extremely low pitches. In the mikey era, we'll probably see singers exploring more than normal range going closer or further from the mike too, in order to maintain uniform audibility.
---
I think that by and large, if we are confident, we can always hit a higher note correctly (though we will be straining ourselves) but building up a range in the lower brackets needs a longer term of regular and planned practice. This is obviously a by-and-large guess.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 15 Oct 2008, 18:45

@ Sundar Krishnan

I think that in Hindustani they make sure you have a certain kind of vocal range through rigorous practice before taking you beyond a point. This "kind of vocal range" is probably closer to the "normal male range", which is why female Hindustani singers have a lower sounding voice.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Oct 2008, 20:05

sundar krishnan,

I suggest you use an oscilloscope to figure it out if it is that important to you. You could also record it on a computer and use software that uses FFT to get a spectrogram.

Note: following is my personal opinion. Some may agree and some may not.

As for all those ratios, I find many of them thrown around without any scientific basis or experimentation to confirm any proposed theory. I mean statements like m2 of raga X is ratio a/b but m2 of raga y is c/d which is like 5-10 cents away etc. etc.

Based on my experiences (not that I am an expert) in pitch analysis as well as some practical cm knowledge, I find this mostly useless even from an academic standpoint. I did not feel this way initially, but again experiences have moved me firmly in that direction. Specifically, I do not buy the following
1. A ratio based explanation for 22 sruthis specifically in the context of use in today's cm (i.e. as opposed to proposal as a possible model for older music)
2. Prescription of ratios as some sort of a standard for uses in different ragas today (i.e. statements like ri in raga X is ratio x/z).

But I do know of people who do find use for some of the ratios (other than the prominent ones like 5/4, 3/2 4/3) to produce music and they have grown affinity towards them based on their own experimentation (as opposed to just theoretical stuff based on math). Now, if they feel that it helps them achieve their own musical objectives, then that is fine to me.

But in general, I avoid the exotic ratios like a plague w.r.t applicability in today's music. Even in the context of 22 sruthis, I apply them in what I consider a conservative manner.

About names for various ratios: IMO, all this water over the bridge - a needless complication of a needless topic (i.e. ratios)

! Many of these names came much later and to me are less and less pertinent. Many are a result of us Indians being utmost stubborn sticklers to tradition even at the expense of logic - books want to explain current music always in terms of "time honored and divine traditions". For example, even the "suddha rishabha" today could be argued as a misnomer since there is a very good possibility its sthanam is NOT that of the original rishbha of the grama based music, which today suddha rishabha was certainly named after (original swaras of the grama music were the suddha swaras). So when you have so much muddy waters about the nomenclature of even the main swaras, why should we tear our hair about conflicts in the names for exotic variations?

Arun