Tala-s in treatises and practice - Lec-dems in MA on 20-12-2

[msakella]

I sincerely and honestly feel that the experienced and knowledgeable elders must always remain vigilant in safeguarding the interests of our kids and aspirants and they all should see that these kids are properly benefited even from any kind of irrelevancy or inconsistency or indiscipline. Many of the following incidents obviously reveal in which way even the experienced and knowledgeable people in higher circles stoop down to safeguard their self interests protecting themselves without exposing their own inefficiencies and inconsistencies.

In general, duplication is the mother of confusion and that is why people are used to find or make a difference between twin-brothers or twin-sisters or twin-ragas or twin-talas. In our music, we are successful to make a difference of a Raga with another Raga among the one or two hundred Ragas of our daily usage basing upon the Raga-lakshana consisting the name of the Raga, serial-number of its Melakartha and Arohana & Avarohana of the Raga concerned. As we are mostly following the scheme of 35 Talas having significant difference between them and as the handful of Talas of our daily usage are part and parcel of these 35 Talas we do not have any confusion among their utilisation. Many are unaware of the fact that Tala also has such Lakshana consisting the name of the Tala, its rhythmical form of Angas and its specific and authentic serial-number having interlinked with the rhythmical form concerned to avoid any duplication. In the annals of our music literature Parshvadeva’s Sangita Samayasaara of 12th century is the first available treatise furnishing a list of 50 Talas along with their names, rhythmical forms and their specific and authentic serial-numbers and after a gap of 8 centuries the second one Gayakalochanam was written and published in 1902 by Tacchoor Singaracharya Brothers furnishing a list of 160 Talas along with their names, rhythmical forms and their specific and authentic serial-numbers. Unfortunately, the mode of getting their respective specific and authentic serial-numbers has never been defined clearly and furnished in any of these treatises of any language by any author in the annals of our music literature. To avoid the embarrassment of furnishing either an in-correct serial number or an in-correct rhythmical form losing their interlink either by accident or due to lack of the required knowledge and also to facilitate the creation of umpteen rhythmical forms of their own fancy, all the other authors have become more and more cautious and wantonly avoided furnishing these serial-numbers. Even though Sharngadeva of 13th century had devoted 100 Shlokas for Talaprastara itself out of the 400 Shlokas of his Taladhyaya of Sangita Ratnakara, he not only furnished contradictory material but also paved way for this avoidance of the serial-numbers and furnished a new list of 120 Talas of his own including two Talas in his own title and name, Nisshanka-tala and Sharngadeva-tala, at the end of the list. Later all the other authors followed suit. Unfortunately, all our authors are more interested only in creating rhythmical forms i.e., Talas of their own fancy including some Talas in their own titles and names but not in extending these precious and invaluable techniques of avoiding duplication of Talas to the posterity. Ultimately, the truth as mentioned by late R.Rangaramanuja Iyyengar in page 106 of his ‘History of South Indian (Carnatic) Music is ‘The text is obscure. The two commentaries (Kalanidhi & Sudhakara) are vague and contradictory. Research gets stuck up in a tantalizing bottle-neck’. Adding fuel to the fire, both Pandit S.Subrahmanya Shastry and his daughter Smt. S.Sharda who later edited Sangita Ratnakara made far more mess of it. But, in 1963 the Almighty has chosen my body to induce into this rarest and complex topic and blessed me with all the latent secrets of this topic in four decades (but an inquisitive young aspirant, Chy. Vijaya Raghava, Bangalore could swallow it fully within four days working hard for 16 hours daily from 7 am to 11 pm). By all this I could find that 10 out of 50 Talas of Sangita Samayasaara and 50 out of 160 Talas of Gayakalochanam are incorrect and also correct them.

Despite my bringing some of these discrepancies to the notice of the publishers, Adyar Library & Research centre, Chennai, late Kunjunni Raja replied on 07-09-1974 that the required modifications will be carried out when the translation is taken up but nothing constructive has been done to remove the contradictory material of it. When I sent an article on Talaprastara to “Shruti’ it was returned (07-01-1987) saying that this cannot be published in their magazine as it is too sophisticated to their readership. In the absence of the required knowledge of Talaprastara even the veteran Shri S.R.Janakiraman furnished contradictory information in this respect in his Sangeetasaaram (Telugu) and veteran Shri B.M.Sundaram even removed the serial-numbers and conveniently included all the Talas of Gayakalochanam in his Talasangraha, the compendium of 1021 Talas. Even though, I wrote an article on this rare topic Talaprastara in the Journal of the Music Academy, Vol. XLVI, 1975 (for the first time in the annals of music) and also have demonstrated it in the Music Academy on 25-12-1983 and the South Central Zone Cultural Centre, Nagpur (which had sponsored and held a workshop on this topic for 6 days from 25-2-1995 to 2-3-1995 at Hyderabad inviting 25 Lecturers and Professors in Music from different Universities) the dominating egocentric conservatives of the local organizations in Chennai, the international centre for Carnatic music, are far more interested in giving away the ritualistic awards every year than the propagation or preservation of such rare topics for the posterity. Thus, instead of properly preserving, propagating and enlightening our community in this lost and retrieved topic, unfortunately, people are ready to distort or abuse at their level best. The same conservatives have never cared to preserve the intricate finger-techniques of the Violin-giants of our South India in the modern video form and the future violin-aspirants have lost all these great finger-techniques once for all due their sheer negligence. This is the sad state of affairs in our country.

I have written three books on this topic, 1.Talaprastara Ratnakara (Telugu) / Indian Genius in Talaprastara (English), 2.Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara - a critical interpretation and 3.Systematisation of Prastara details of Deshi Talas which stand as originals on this topic in the annals of our music literature. Thus, having more interest in the topics dealing with Talas I have attended two Lecture-demonstrations, one by Dr. N. Ramanathan on ‘Tala-s in treatises’ and another by Dr. Vedavalli on ‘Tala-s in practice’ at the Music Academy, Chennai in the morning on 20-12-2011 and felt unhappy while the speakers skipped off bringing out some of the significant and relevant aspects of them which truthfully enlighten the present day aspirants. The details are furnished hereunder.

In his Lec-dem Dr. N.Ramanathan brought out some details of Talas from Sangita Ratnakara and other treatises of that old times and rendering those Talas sang a couple of compositions furnished in those texts which are in no way relevant to the present day aspirants. At the end of his talk I pointed out that certain significant aspects of these Talas in relation with the Talaprastara giving out the authenticity of each and every rhythmical form having a perennial relevancy with our music must be made available to the present aspirants. I also emphasized to propagate this rare topic, Talaprastara keeping aside all the likes or dislikes of certain persons on such rare topics and expressed my inability to speak more elaborately on this relevancy due to the time constraints Even though none of the expert committee members or the audience responded to my remarks due to their lack of interest or knowledge only one Bangalorian approached me in the end and enquired about the relevant aspects of those Talas and I have properly briefed him. Thus, while there are very significant and relevant aspects of these Talas which make our present aspirants more knowledgeable, unfortunately, only the irrelevant aspects of them are demonstrated and the relevant aspects have conveniently been skipped off by Dr. N. Ramanathan.

At this juncture I am also compelled to recollect some old incidents which need to be mentioned here. At the first instance, on the repeated requests of Dr. N.Ramanathan in 1987, I was the first person to stay in Chennai and make the strenuous and boring compilation of all the Talas collected by Robert Brown, even though he wantonly skipped off mentioning my name in his Lec-dem despite in my presence. Later, I had invited and appointed him as the Assistant Director in the above mentioned workshop held at Hyderabad even though he didn’t have the required acquaintance with this topic Then he could learn a little of this topic but took a xerox copy of my note book in which all the latent secrets are defined to give her teacher, Dr. Smt. Premalatha Sharma who was in the process of writing the commentary on the Taladhyaya of Sangita Ratnakara. However, being unable to decipher the topic Prastara she ultimately failed to bring out the commentary on Taladhyaya of Sangita Ratnakara. In spite of all this he ultimately developed a negative attitude towards this topic and even wrote that this topic Talaprastara is irrelevant nowadays in his article ‘Taladashapranas and the musicological problems in the present day Tala System’. An International Conference on Sangita Ratnakara was also convened by him in Chennai later in which his teacher Dr. Smt. Premlatha Sharma and Herald S. Powers also participated. Then, to be grateful and favourable to his teacher Dr. Smt. Pramlatha Sharma, he even wantonly avoided inviting me to this important conference. Even though he is well aware that this rarest and lost topic Talaprastara has fully been retrieved by me and books are also written by me, a resolution that there was nothing new to know further in respect of Sangita Ratnakara was also passed at the end of this conference wantonly tarnishing the image of our great culture (later, when I came to know about this and sent an email to the great Herald S.Powers in this respect on 05-03-1999 he was not courteous enough even to respond).

But, in spite of all this as I treat Dr. N. Ramanathan as a very good friend of mine and also as I do not want to belittle his image I spoke very briefly at the end of his talk (even before hurrying Shri Pappu reached me to grab the microphone from me I cut short my talk and handed over the microphone to him to make them happy) and concluded. But, later, I realized that unless I somehow make the relevant aspects known to the present day aspirants they will never get this knowledge as, except me, nobody on earth knows the full details of this topic Talaprastara to enlighten them. Accordingly, now, I shall hereunder furnish the relevant aspects of this topic which are not covered by Dr. N.Ramanathan for the benefit of the present day aspirants.

Even though there is a precise mathematical system to discover any rhythmical form of the universe along with its specific and authentic serial-number, many authors, in the absence of this knowledge and also being unaware that no rhythmical form could ever be created at all but discovered, have created hundreds of Talas of their own fancy and furnished huge lists of them even without any serial-numbers in their treatises. In the annals of our music literature there are only two treatises furnishing the Talas along with their specific and authentic serial-numbers as mentioned in the first paragraph.
In another significant treatise, Sangitasuryodaya (Khairagarh edition), written in 16th century the author Bhandaru Lakshminarayana, exactly copied the list of 120 Talas furnished by Sharngadeva in his Sangita Ratnakara, surprisingly omitting the last two Talas created in his own title and name of Sharngadeva. Besides, this author also added another list of 121 Talas including two Talas created in his own title and name, Bharatakuleshwara-tala and Lakshmanahvaya-tala, at the end of the list. All these authors are interested only in furnishing huge lists of Talas without any serial-numbers as it is much easier to create as many Talas as any author likes to bring out of his own fancy including Talas in their own titles and names but not either in providing them with a serial-number which is interlinked with the respective rhythmical form or in extending the true knowledge of Talaprastara to the posterity. Besides this, the author of Sangita Suryodaya stood ahead of all other authors by furnishing a very highly defective system of permutation of Virama-prastara along with umpteen in-corrections and creating and including Talas against the established norms (in spite of all, surprisingly, he was honoured with Kanakabhishekam and Gajarohanam by the King Srikrishnadevaraya). These details of his Talas are furnished hereunder.

1. 25th Tala, Lola carries two different kinds of Laghus pertaining to Khanda and Mishra Jaathis followed by one Anudruta. This rhythmical form is against the established norms and is the Tala which should not be rendered as it comes under the category of Samyuktanga-prastara.

2. 27th Tala, Layaanvitha carries 10 different kinds of Laghus pertaining to 4, 3, 5, 7, 9, 9, 7, 5, 3 & 4 Jaathis respectively (this is the first ever treatise in which a Tala is furnished utilizing all the five Jaathis). This rhythmical form is also against the established norms and is the Tala which should not be rendered as it comes under the category of Samyuktanga-prastara.

3. 41st Tala, Shadbhija carries 3 different kinds of Laghus pertaining to 7, 3 & 4 Jaathis respectively. This rhythmical form is also against the established norms and is the Tala which should not be rendered as it comes under the category of Samyuktanga-prastara.

4. 43rd Tala, Sarvaja carries eight Angas, Anudruta, Druta, Druta-virama, Laghu, Laghu-virama, Guru, Pluta & Kaakapada. But, most surprisingly, another Tala carrying another name, Kalpabhooruha (107th) but carrying the same Angas is also furnished. This rhythmical form is also against the established norms and is the Tala which should not be rendered as it comes under the category of Samyuktanga-prastara like Sharabhanandanam.

5. 71st Tala, Khechara carries six Drutas ending with Laghu-virama pertaining to Mishra-jaathi (Laghu-virama pertaining to the odd-jaathi is not applicable). This rhythmical form is also against the established norms and is the Tala which should not be rendered as it comes under the category of Samyuktanga-prastara.

6. 74th Tala, Gathivara carries two Laghus pertaining to Khanda and Mishra-jaathis respectively. But, most surprisingly, another Tala carrying another name, Malayaanila (89th) but carrying the same Angas is also furnished. This rhythmical form is also against the established norms and is the Tala which should not be rendered as it comes under the category of Samyuktanga-prastara.

7. 111th Tala, Harinaplutha carries 4 Anudrutas, one Druta-virama, 3 Laghus without
mentioning their Jaathi, another Druta followed by another Laghu pertaining to
Mishra-jaathi. This rhythmical form is also against the established norms and is
the Tala which should not be rendered as it comes under the category of
Samyuktanga-prastara.

8. 112th Tala, Gopathi carries 2 Anudrutas, one Laghu without mentioning its Jaathi,
one Druta, another Laghu pertaining to Trisra-jaathi, still another Laghu without
mentioning its Jaathi followed by one Guru. This rhythmical form is also against
the established norms and is the Tala which should not be rendered as it comes
under the category of Samyuktanga-prastara.

When I brought many of such lapses of this edition not only to the editor Shri Kamtaprasad Tripathi but also the then Vice-chancellor, Dr. Smt. Premlatha Sharma, Indira Kala Sangeet Vishwa Vidyalaya, Khairagarh the editor kept mum and the Vice-chancellor thanked me in her letter dated 07-09-1987 but has not taken any further action to rectify the lapses.

In her Lec-dem Dr. Vedavalli also gave some details of the Talas in present practice and demonstrated Simhanandanam rendering Kakapada, an un-sounded Anga, as a sounded Anga. But, I do not know why she did not include Sharabhanandanam in her demonstration.

Unless I bring out all these above discrepancies to the notice of the readers many may not become aware of the truth though bitter. amsharma

[msakella]

Then and there I have also sent the link of this topic to my friend Dr. N. Ramanathan expecting a positive action from him as he is always of the nature of a very nice, co-operative and helpful gentleman to one and all. As expected just now I have received a very positive and affectionate communication from him and also spoke to him immediately on phone very affectionately. I just want to share my feelings with our affectionate readers also. amsharma

[l.gopalan]

Talking about Layam I need some clarification. http://carnatica.net/onlinedictionary/dicl.htm defines
Laghu as one of the Angas that reckons musical time. It consists of a beat and a variable count of fingers. See also Jati.
The other Angas in vogue are: Dhrutam, one used in reckoning Tala, executed by a clap and a wave.
Anudhrutam is the third Anga used in reckoning Tala. It is denoted by the symbol “U”. It consists of one beat, of unit measure. The symbol used is 0
From the above definitions it can be seen that one clap takes the same time duration as that of placing a figure.
The above definitions make it clear that the time taken for placing finger once and for a clap are the same whereas the time taken for a wave is not defined. Is that the same as for the other two Angas or they are different and if different what is the ratio. If same where is the need for a wave?
In my reckoning these Angas are down to earth practical chronometers and are universal. By universality I mean the time taken for executing each one of these Angas are independent of one’s geographical location and also on when executed say thousands of years back or today or thousands of years later?
Are these not ingenious and unique conceptions?
Also I have heard that the time taken for a Lagu unit is related to the time taken by the sharpest needle to pierce through 1000 rose petals held one behind the other by a person executing as fast as he can. I have heard this from very renowned musicologists’ bur have not been able to locate the source
Anyone can enlighten on these?

[Nick H]

It is easy to confused by the theory. Throw away the metronome and buy a truck-full of rose petals!

Here is my idiots' guide to simplifying the whole thing: Think of it all as beats, and do not get held up by angas and their kryas.

When a western conductor conducts a waltz, in 3/4 time, he moves his stick down, across, back up; 1 - 2 - 3. When a carnatic musician puts rupaka talam, he makes two claps and one wave; 1 - 2 - 3.

A clap is a beat.

A finger count is a beat.

A wave is a beat.

They are all kryas and they are all equal*. Otherwise we would not have a constant rhythm.

(Hmmm... Chapu talas confuse this by not having obviously discrete kryas for each beat)

There are those who insist that only a clap is a beat, because the word beat means to hit something. If you follow that path of understanding, then you have to cope with beats of different duration, and I don't think that is worth the mental effort, let alone the mental effort of explaining it to someone else! It is, however, a very common interpretation, and will probably turn up in the next post. Get confused! It is a basic human right ]

Here is another reason why you should not consider the beat as hitting something... The angas are an intrinsic part of the rhythm of the music: you can think of them as building blocks. The kryas are simply ways of expressing or communicating them. The music will do very well without kryas, or with different ones. The orchestra can still play a waltz without a conductor waving a triangle with his stick.

However, they have been tailored to perfectly express their underlying building blocks with simple gestures. It is easy, for instance, to express different lengths (number of beats) of laghu with different number of finger counts.

It is the entire system that is ingenious and unique, but rhythm itself, a regular, recurring pattern of beats, is universal.

Just now, I can't find the rose-petal definition. It is a sweet idea, but of no practical use at all, so let us leave it to the gods to measure their talam this way. How long we humans take to pierce a number of rose petals will depend on how hard we push the needle

You may get your dhrutams and anadhrutams, and their symbols, sorted out with a quick google...


*There are obscure instances where they are not equal: let's not go there --- until we have to!

[l.gopalan]

None in any field of human endeavor got or gets confused by theories which on the other hand has promoted the well being of all biological entities.Even Carnot s ideal efficiency, Godel's incompleteness theorems and all have served and is serving the humanity. So it swill add to your stature if only simple questions are answered with clarity and in simple terms as imparting knowledge " is twice blessed. It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.".

[Nick H]

Ahh, you are not an idiot ... so you will not benefit from my idiots' guide.

Perhaps Carnot or Godel might tell me that there is no need to simplify or make things easy. I have no clue: I have never heard of them. But I have heard of laghus, dhrutams and anadhrutams ...etc.

[Nick H]

Prasthara is the study of how a given number of counts can be subdivided. It is one of the ten components of the theory of tala. I think Akellaji calls it combinatorics, and he is the master. It is the numeric permutations. Angas come under another heading.

It is all a matter of cogs within cogs: if we make each matra longer, the akshira will be longer, the avartanam will be longer and the song will be slower. If, on the other hand, the artist has just had his coffee, the opposite might happen. The western artist may vary the pace on the trot, but the carnatic artist is supposed to keep it fixed for each song: it still remains their choice, though. Nothing is "static" as such, except the shell of the structure itself, which is about definition, not movement. An engine does not have to be running for us to define its parts.

Sticking with engines: speeds and nadai are examples of changing gear ---and the akshira remains constant. Trikalam is three speeds. Although an artist may well do 1st speed, second speed, tisra nadai, third speed, etc, it is not so easy to deal with the two things together and say that is finished! There is more to it.

There are many instances of syncopation, and korvai is a special case, and is subject to certain rules and used at particular times. the same is true of Thiermanums and mohara. They need to be defined by what sort of thing they are, before looking into their internals. But I wouldn't argue with the word "interesting" . They do not come under building blocks: they come under buildings. They are compositions, not components.

[Nick H]

there are sub-units which, in its true nature, are different from mAthra. That is, both are sub-units of an akshara alight, but they are different.

No, aksharas are always divided in mathras (even if there were only to be one mathra to the akshara)... there is no other thing, into which they can be divided. A mathra does not become something else because it comes in threes rather than fours.

This is the constant: compositions consist of a number of avartanams, avarthanams are made up of akshiras, akshiras comprise one or more mathras. That is our first dimension.

In the second dimension, akshiras contain a structure which is composed of angas.

Then there will be more to come...

I can, and have, explain this stuff to five year olds. The advantage is that that they don't demand that this, plus all the rest of the theory of tala, be compressed into a couple of paragraphs, nor do they expect that the basic lesson will equip them to render pallavis! I am still quite proud of the fact that, when I asked why I should be teaching the youngsters, rather than someone who could play a hundred times better than me, the answer was, "Because you can explain it: they can't." Of course, it would have been even better if I'd really learnt to play too :$

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, I.gopalan, The following are the definitions of the six Talangas furnished in the Music Hand Book available from the link you have provided:
Anudhrutam One of the Angas used in reckoning Tala. It is denoted by the symbol “U”. It consists of one beat, of unit measure.
Dhrutam One of the Angas used in reckoning Tala, executed by a clap and a wave. The symbol used is 0.
Laghu One of the six Angas that reckons musical time. It consists of a beat and a variable count of fingers. See also Jati.
Guru One of the six Angas of Tala in Carnatic music. It has two Matras or eight Akshara-kalas. The word Guru also means preceptor, who takes the student from darkness to light.
Pluta Refers to one of the seven parts of the tala and has a total of 12 counts or aksharas.
Kakapadam One of the six Angas among the musical time measures and has a total of 16 counts.

Please follow the full and correct definition of the same furnished hereunder:

Anudrutam: It consists of only one sounded-beat called ‘Dhruvaka’ carrying only one unit of time-measure and denoted by the symbol “U”.

Drutam: It consists of one sounded-beat called “Dhruvaka” followed by another sound-less waving hand towards right called “Visarjita” carrying a total of two-units of time measure and denoted by the symbol “0”.

Laghu: It consists of one sounded-beat called “Dhruvaka” followed by varying sound-less finger-counts basing upon its Jaati carrying 3-units of time-measure for Trisra-jaati (one beat and two finger-counts), 4-units for Chaturashra-jaati (one beat and three finger-counts), 5-units for Khanda-jaati (one beat and four finger-counts), 7-units for Mishra-jaati (one beat and six finger-counts) and 9-unts for Sankeerna-jaati (one beat and eight finger-counts) and denoted by the symbol ‘l’.

Guru: It consists of two-laghus, the first-laghu with one sounded-beat called “Dhruvaka” followed by the finger-counts of the respective Jaati and the second-laghu with sound-less waving hand toward right called ‘Visarjita” followed by the finger-counts of the respective Jaati carrying two-times of the total of units of time-measure basing upon its respective Jaati and denoted by the symbol ‘S’.

Pluta: It consists of three-laghus, the first-laghu with one sounded-beat called “Dhruvaka” followed by the finger-counts of the respective Jaati, the second-laghu with sound-less waving-hand towards left called ‘Sarpini” followed by the finger-counts of the respective Jaati and the third-laghu with another sound-less waving-hand towards right called “Krishna” followed by the finger-counts of the respective Jaati carrying three-times of the total of units of time-measure basing upon its respective Jaati and denoted by the symbol ‘Ś’.

Kaakapada: A fully sound-less Anga consisting of four sound-less-laghus, the first-laghu with sound-less waving-hand towards left called ‘Sarpini” followed by the finger-counts of the respective Jaati, the second-laghu with sound-less waving-hand towards right called “Krishna” followed by the finger-counts of the respective Jaati, the third-laghu with sound-less-flag-like-palm-hand towards upwards called “Pataaka” followed by the finger-counts of the respective Jaati and the fourth-laghu with sound-less-flag-like-palm-hand towards downwards called ‘Patita” followed by the finger-counts of the respective Jaati carrying four-times of the total of units of time-measure basing upon its respective Jaati and denoted by the symbol “+”.

In respect of reckoning the time the “Matra’ has only been furnished in Sangita Ratnakara. The piercing business through the 100 petal-leaves is the later intrusion only. The time taken to utter five short syllables, ka-cha-ta-tha-pa, is called “Matra’ which is almost equal to only one second of time. The total of the units of the respective-jaati must fit in this time of one second irrespective of the Jaati required.

In the Music Academy, like last year, even in this year, in the morning session on 23-12-2012, Vidwan Shri J. Venkataraman efficiently and excellently demonstrated the ‘Chanda-tala Pallavi’. In fact, this should only be titled as ‘Chando-roopa-pallavi’ but not as ‘Chanda-tala-pallavi’ as this rhythmical form does not fit into the rules and regulations of Tala having ten-elements and accordingly should not be called or used as a Tala at all. Fortunately enough none of the audience is aware of that in the absence of the knowledge of the 10th element, Prastara.

In fact, many of our so called stalwarts or maestros or Vidwans are used to either mis-spell or mis-interpret or furnish insufficient or incorrect information (like the above) for many of these technical terms in the guise of their own home-tradition and, at the same time, even none of the reputed organizations or individuals tries to hold seminars or conferences to arrive at a consensus on such topics even in educating our own kids. With the indifferent, negligent, egoistic, ego-centric and selfish attitude of all our so called musicians and musicologists in this respect I feel it is of no use to correct them by writing lengthy definitions and prefer to stop here. amsharma

[vasanthakokilam]

Akellaji, thanks very much for taking the time to painstakingly write the definitions. Much appreciated.

One question.

The time taken to utter five short syllables, ka-cha-ta-tha-pa, is called “Matra’ which is almost equal to only one second of time. The total of the units of the respective-jaati must fit in this time of one second irrespective of the Jaati required.

Can you clarify this please? The above seems to imply that, for example, that a Sankeerna Jaati laghu has to be reckoned in one second and also a trisra jaati laghu has to be reckoned in one second? Is that a correct interpretation?

[Nick H]

He is not talking about laghu. As you aware, according to his scholarship, akshara should be called mathra.

He does not mean jaathi as in "number of counts in a laghu," He is referring to something like nadai: what is variously called pulse, subdivision, mathra.

Confusion time...

[l.gopalan]

Dear msakella-Thank you for ur #12 ,not withstanding the fact that my question seems to have been misunderstood. All that clarification sought by me is weather a clap,a wave and placing the finger take the same or different value of time. for a given speed of a tala. if different what is the ratio ,if same why three angas?
http://www.mridangams.com/Tala Dhasa Pranas by Sanatorium Sriram Venkataraman seems to indicate nonequality in the time taken
In my view various interpretations floating around needs unification/standardization as defined by ISO. the international organization for standardization
I will be out of reach for communication till 3rd January ,2013
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So be thankful & grateful for them, cause you will realize their
need when you lack them. Think about it.........
with all the love and affection
A VERY VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR !

May God bless you all and touch your life
with

Hope , peace , plenty , and
prosperity !

--
Regards,
Gopalan and his family members

[msakella]

vasanthakokilam: Yes dear, you are absolutely correct. Either for Sankeerna or Trisra the duration of the Matra is constant. This is the great measure of time for music our ancestors brought out and passed it on but not the cumbersome petal-piercing business at all. But, unfortunately, each and everybody hypocritically abides by the stipulated rules and regulations but very sincerely tries to bring out one kind of ‘reservations’ or the other to suit his desires and, thus, ‘Akshara’, which has nowhere been furnished in any of our treatises and which literally means only one-unit, intrudes into our well disciplined system and, very sadly, spoils the dish very successfully in each and every manner. Of course, it is very easy to spoil anything in which way just a match-stick is far more enough to collapse a palatial building.

I.gopalan: Thank you for your affectionate greetings and kind words of inspiration and I reciprocate the same to you all. In respect of our topic, either clap or waving hand or finger-count carries the same duration of time and that is the discipline of our system. In which way we have inches, feet, yards, furlongs, miles etc., to measure the length or distance our ancestors have very aptly furnished all these varieties to use the length of time in music with different names. amsharma

[vasanthakokilam]

Akellaji: Since you try to be precise and correct I do not want to leave my understanding to assumptions, so let me pester you one more time.

There is some ambiguity in understanding this sentence "The total of the units of the respective-jaati must fit in this time of one second irrespective of the Jaati required." which can cause confusion.

To clarify this, let me put the above like this even if it is pedantic. If a mAthra is 1 second, then the Anudruta will be 1 second, dhruta will take 2 seconds, trisra jAthi laghu will take 3 seconds, chaturasra jAti Laghu will take 4 seconds, kanda jAti Laghu will take 5 seconds, Misra jAthi laghu will take 7 seconds and Sankeerna jAthi laghu will take 9 seconds to complete.

Is the above true?

( To avoid confusion with the subject matter at hand, I have taken out my first post and a few others in this thread. Nick, your posts #7 and #8 lost their context. Let me know if they can be here or I should take them out too. Thx. )

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, As you are doing this in the interest of the aspirants in removing any kind of assumptions or ambiguity you need not hesitate to pester me any number of times as I am also striving for the same.

As you wrote the ambiguity is not in the sentence I wrote but in the system itself. I have my own doubts in the same manner and I am unable to find a more-knowledgeable, able and rational person than me to approach.

In the olden days there was no Gati and the present Gati is the Jaati itself. That is why even in the 10 elements of Tala Jaati is there but no Gati. As per the available material the Matra which is almost equal to one second is said to be constant and irrespective of the number of units any Jaati must fit into it. Thus, the problem of Laghu is cleared as it occupies only one Matra i.e., one second. But, as you wrote, what about Anudruta and Druta? Still I remember the rendering of the 108 Talas by Late Uppalapati Ankaiah, my Guru in Talaprastara. He was rendering the Anudruta with one beat of one-unit i.e., one-fourth of the second, the Druta with one beat and one waving-hand of two-units i.e., half of the second, the Chaturashra-laghu with only one beat of 4-units occupying one second. I did not ask him this kind of doubts as I myself do not have much knowledge in those days. But, now, I have umpteen doubts and I am unable to find a suitable person to approach. However, irrespective of the length of the Jaati, it must fit in Matra of only one second. amsharma