Concert duration

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 12 Dec 2005, 14:01

What justice carnatic musicians could do in 90 minutes concerts? Why do they accept it? Who is to blame? The audience or the musician or the sponsors? I would be damned if i were to get the opinion that we are living in a fast world

K.R.NagaSundaram

kaumaaram · Post by **kaumaaram** » 27 Dec 2005, 16:26

It is very difficult to blame anyone for the limited concert duration of less than or equal to 90 minutes. But my opinion is that if the number of songs chosen are restricted to the minimum, I believe that a good artist could do well. I remember that in 1988 AVM Audio released double albums. Each double album lasted for 90 minutes and one did have the satisfaction of listening to a lengthy concert.

Be that as it may, the ideal duration would be anywhere between 2-1/2 and 3 hours and that would give immense satisfaction indeed to the listener. "Fast world" is of course not the right reason; but someone had thought of reinventing the wheel which is why you have concerts of very short duration. The proliferation of sabhas coupled with the involvement of commercial sponsorships could also have contributed for short duration concerts. For instance, a corporate sponsor would like to have multiple sponsorship for a small sum (negotiating skills!). On the whole, unless the artist is pretty sincere, the quality of short duration concerts will get diluted to a great extent.

Kaumaaram

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 27 Dec 2005, 18:24

I am not averse to short concerts but what I dont like is a 3 hours concert songlist compressed and packed into a 90mins or 120mins concert. Such rushing-up rarely helps. I am sure a varnam, 2-3 standard kritis, a main kriti/RTP, and a thillana/viruttam/tukkada (with mangalam of course) can be accommodated in an unhurried way in a 90-120 minutes concert. Quality before quantity, should be the motto.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Feb 2006, 11:47

So why did concerts become shorter? I always hearing the fact bemoaned; everyone seems to want longer concerts, so why don't we get them?

I have become used to a certain format of carnatic concert in UK, procedding from the varnam, including a major kriti in the first half (usually with thani), an interval, a second half often including RTP, and invariably with a thillana preceding mangalam. I'm often left with a feeling that the concert just finished, rather than coming to a proper end, by the shorter Chennai format.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 11 Apr 2006, 09:16

While full justice can't be done in 90 minutes, I think it is possible. The key would be to avoid packing in 12 items into the concert.

A suggested format for a 90 minute concert would be:

Varnam or Ganapathy krithi with kalpana swaram - 8 min
Pre-main item with alapana and swaram - 25 minutes
krithi (no alapana, etc) - 7 min
Main item with alapana, neraval, swaram and tani - 40 min
1 or 2 thukkadas - 10 min

If the concert was say 60 minutes, then there would be scope for only one item to be expanded.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 27 Oct 2006, 20:58

i happened to listen to S.Balachandar's Ksheera Sagara Sayana long time back in Thyagaraja urchavam Tiruvaiyaru. the time slot was 30 minutes and he took the entire time to play only that song!
Madurai Somu used to sing the entire night. Such was his stamina and enthusiasm. TNR they say used to start by 10 in the night and finish by 3 a m.
It was Ariyakkudi who brought about the limited version of the concert and it is almost followed by all vidwans today.
More than the capacity of the vidwan to perform it is the capacity to keep the crowd in tact which will sustain the concert for longer duration.
The novices want to move away if unpopular krithis and ragas are played and the impatience grows usually after a few songs in the initial stage. This may act as a dampening factor for the vidwans performing.
In any case 9 items in all with rendition extending to an hour and forty five minutes will be ideal.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 27 Oct 2006, 22:54

Don't get me started on this one...
What with mini- and micro- concerts, people sending chits after 5 minutes of start for Chinnamchirukiliye, vada-samosa intervals, raga announcements before each piece, same (adi) talam throughout the kutcheri, no neravals and very little swaraprasthara, pitch dark auditoriums, squeaky audio, not to mention the inevitable ramblings in the form of vote of thanks - I take refuge in my tape collection!

A kutcheri to have any merit should be 4-4.5 hours in my opinion. Should include 3-4 solid ragas, with detailed alapanam, neraval, swaras. But hey, who is listening?

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 27 Oct 2006, 22:57

Someone here had mentioned on another thread (forget which one) that a ragam like Sankarabharanam is a cue for some people to go for a walk outside. Why do they even attend kutcheris? To display their clothes?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Oct 2006, 09:25

To display what they wear is one of the hundred reasons why they are there in the first place...

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 28 Oct 2006, 09:28

it is only the rasikas' patience whcih can sustain the concert for 4 to 5 hours and the vidwans will definitely adapt if that is the order of the day.
are rasikas prepared?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Oct 2006, 09:53

Even now, you may end up spending four to nearly five hours in a concert hall. Let's say the performer gives us a good three hour concert--several of them do--and the speeches go on for an hour or more...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Oct 2006, 14:16

4 to 5 hours! Well, I love the idea, but the practicality..... for one thing, my bladder wouldn't hold out that long <Blush> there would have to be an interval....

Confession: I do not sit enthralled through every song of every concert. (can I be alone?). Sometimes I have trouble 'settling in', casting off the outside world and giving my attention to the music. Sometimes I begin to feel I've had enough after a mere hour or so, but when this happens I invariable perk up a few minutes, or maybe a song later (and no, I do not spend that time chatting with a neighbour!)

One of the reasons I admire pro musicians is their ability to concentrate and give consistently throughout a performance. It is very difficult to even sit still in the public gaze for hours and hours; it is quite possible that they may not even like all the songs chosen. At least in the audience we can wriggle, look around, or even (Blush, again) doze for one or two minutes...

But, on the whole, I am for

* Raga alapana from main artist and accompanist for most of the songs
* preferably more than one sloka to be included
* RTP to be performed as well as a major kriti
* Thani to come earlier in the concert
* Thillana to be included

...just a few thoughts

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 28 Oct 2006, 16:12

and ultimately it is the capability of the performer to sustain the listener's interest.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 28 Oct 2006, 20:07

lol @ blushes, I still remember a few people dozing through part of Nithyashree's kutcheri...didn't think it were possible :S If they put an intermission for weak bladders, then half of them decide to go home at that time too.

I really don't understand some of these other complaints though. People weren't complaining when DKP etc. gave 1.5 - 2.5 hr kutcheris. And the main item would last just half an hour!! If a main item was any longer, it was because it was an RTP. Nowadays main items last at least an hourish (in a normal kutcheri) so what's the problem? If you don't like mini/micro concerts (which are equally enjoyable, if you're flexible)
why do you even go? If you don't go, why complain? Please complain about something more worthwhile...like useless over-the-top speeches. We all agree that they're overrated.

When there are no constraints on time, an ideal concert should last between 2.5 and 3.5 hours, depending on the mood of the artist. Any more, and there should be an intermission. Of course, that's what some people think the thani avarthanam is for, even though it's just a break for the main artist and more importantly, a solo for the percussionists.

Shankarabharanam, which is meant to give santhosham, does to me what Neelambari is supposed to do. Doesn't mean I hate it...just means it rarely gives me the sparks it should. Almost any other rAgA except this one and I won't be impatiently waiting. But strangely enough, this rAgA has been getting stuck in my head lately...and then...noo....zzzz!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Oct 2006, 20:46

vocalist,
Should I be ashamed to admit it? Bhairavi does the same to me! That is, when it comes to RTP. I like it in varnam, rAgA singing and the kriti. SwarAs and tAnam? I tend to switch off. A great ancient rAgA, full of grit no doubt--but give me a kalyaNi any day!
Ah, personal preferences!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Oct 2006, 21:39

Vocalist... it's not so much complaining about what we are getting ---as asking for even more, please!

And yes, concert halls should be 100% speech-free zones. 100%.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 29 Oct 2006, 10:22

There's my laughter for the day arasi, lol. It's not so much the content of the confession, but the added disclaimer

I'm finding it hard to come to terms with switching off during bhairavi swarams - but it does depend on who's rendering and how they do it (not enough justice is done to this rAgA generally as I pointed out somewhere). Likewise, some nameless musicians can make such colourful rAgAs like kalyAni, seem boring. Personal preferences indeed.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 29 Oct 2006, 10:24

True nick H

Though I suppose the saying "too much of anything is good for nothing" is overrated too...

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 29 Oct 2006, 12:41

the nunaces of Bhairavi can not be brought out easily. and any aborted version will not bring about the desired results.
bhairavi is capable of reviving persons in death bed. kunnakudi vaidyanathan's father was nearing his end and the doctor attending on him suggested to vaidyanathan to keep playing Bhairavi. kunnakudi used to play the raga for a few minutes every day before his father and his father lived thereafter for 3 years. such is the power of bhairavi.
sankarabaranam also when sung by a competent exponent is scintillating. Santhanam's or MSS' Sankarabaranam will prove this point.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Oct 2006, 20:39

vocalist,
I am glad I provided a laugh for you--at the cost of my slip in appreciating a great rAgA to its fullest extent showing! Well, that's why I am here on the forum--to learn a thing or two and to expand my vision. By the way, I have to admit that I have enjoyed DKP and DKJ's Bhairavis to a great extent in the old days.

chalanata,
You are right. It depends upon who sings the rAgA. I suppose it is a difficult rAgA to handle in the sense of exploration (same as thoDi which can be slippery terrain for the not-so-experienced. Yet, thODi has pathos--which is forgiving to the lesser than mighty singers). Bhairavi's majesty demands more. It is truly a classical rAgA in that it asks for expert handling of it. With not such experienced vocalists, it can sound uninspiring (there is also MY failing in fully appreciating it).

Some years ago, I remember wincing a bit when Sanjay Subrahmanyan started a pallavi in bhairavi in a concert. I was waiting for a main course of any rAgA but bhairavi and there he was, starting to explore the rAgA and exploring it with such depth and width that I had to remind myself that I didn't like elaborate bhairavis! What do you know! One learns all the time, and I thank heavens for that...

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 30 Oct 2006, 17:06

lol, nah, I can't scold you for something that's very understandable. DKP/DKJ and school render bhairavi quite well - the dynamic duo didn't render it as a main piece though (except once or twice)

However, some other artists don't do it justice, purely (I think), because they can't with their current voice or style or...(insert factor) lol

Not totally sure how much you enjoyed/disliked Sanjay's version of the bhairavi, but that's a rAgA that I'm often less than satisfied when he renders it. Especially when he goes into nereval, he starts shutting his mouth almost all the way, thinking it's going to sound a lot more intense...unfortunately for me, it's intensely annoying, and doesn't create the bhAvA he thinks is being produced (or so it seems to me).

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 30 Oct 2006, 17:28

I just realised that my post wrt Sanjay may be confused with ghanam singing. It's very different when Tamil sahithya in bhairavi, that should sound so vibrant, turns into mumbling!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Oct 2006, 18:58

Oh dear! Here you go again, vocalist!, sir.

First you nearly scold a rasikA and then an eminent vidwAn and just when I thought you triumphed in making me rethink bhairavi, you try to convince me otherwise

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 31 Oct 2006, 15:30

Forgive me arasi!, anty.

I was merely pointing out my personal preferences while trying to play down your indiscretion, or so was my intention - apparently you chose to interpret it quite differently!

Similarly, it is not I, but chalanatta, that deserves the credit for such a triumph - as you so eloquently put it.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 31 Oct 2006, 19:49

but vocalist ! i could not prevail upon you though!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Oct 2006, 20:46

vocalist,
Thanks for the laugh of the day! I thought madam was what you would go for as a retort to my 'sir'. Well, aunty is the same as mAmi, not my favorite either--like bhairavi

However much I like to stay with my royal name, my peasantry denies me that glory, I suppose. As for interpretations, isn't that what makes us all our individual selves? You are right. I had thanked chalanata in my post I thought, but one more time as you say suits me as well.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 01 Nov 2006, 07:19

you are welcome arasi!

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 01 Nov 2006, 13:15

I almost fell off my chair reading that chalanata, LOL. Thanks for it. *still laughing*

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 01 Nov 2006, 13:37

Didn't want to sound too predictable arasi

please also forgive this vocalist sir if you read it to be offensive. Here, youngsters call any woman that is older than them 'aunty', just to make life easier concerning all these titles of respect. Sorry for the digression everyone.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 01 Nov 2006, 14:24

gosh, so much digression from the topic-at-hand! where is the forum police when we need them??

Meena madam, are you listening??

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Nov 2006, 03:07

Jayaram,
Digressing further to earn Meena madam's ire? Let's get on track and discuss music, rAgAs--say, bhairavi, my favorite rAgA again.

Vocalist,
That is, if you are on your feet again after falling off the chair. The pallavi line I heard that day was gOvindanaDi mukundanaDI--an impossible line to sing the way you describe the delivery to be! You may be talking about another concert at another time...

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 03 Nov 2006, 13:08

lol arasi!! you're on a roll!!

And yeah, I was talking of other concerts...Thaye Yezhaippal and Yaaro Ivar Yaaro. But never mind that. If it's appreciating bhairavi that we're after...then let's not go there.

MSS Enati nomu phalmo - if you haven't heard it, please check it out!! A copy is on MIO...not as long as a main piece in kutcheri these days...but long enough.

gnanasunyam · Post by **gnanasunyam** » 26 Dec 2006, 07:04

In the USA, generally CM concerts last 3 to 3:30 hours or more. Once in NJ, Sudha (I think in 2003) sang for almost 5 hours- they start the concert at 3:00PM just to facilitate longer concerts. And if I recall, most people sat through the concert.

On the other hand HM artists try to finish the concert in 2 hours, sometimes even less. May be lack of supporting instruments may be preventing them from a longer concert.

A 2 hour Carnatic concert never gives the satisfaction- it almost always seems that you are thru with the concert when you are just about getting into it.

A few concerts that I have attended in Music Academy, I have noticed that the Sabha secretary comes on stage while the concert is still on - may be to remind the artist to stop and leave.

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 26 Dec 2006, 07:45

gnanasunyam wrote:A few concerts that I have attended in Music Academy, I have noticed that the Sabha secretary comes on stage while the concert is still on - may be to remind the artist to stop and leave.

Really, that sounds very curt and polite. I attended a concert of a very senior vidwan a few years ago at the MA and when he was finishing up a tukkada going just 5 minutes extra over his alotted slot the stage technicians had already activated the big curtains down halfway through the piece. Funny even the artist wasn't so perturbed but I remember first the mrdangist, followed by the ghatam, then the ghanjira vidwan and lastly the violinist all immediately stopped playing and gave indignant glances at the stage hands and then they immediately rolled up the curtains. Then the artist kindly apologized to the audience and concluded with mangaLam. I think one of the committee members of the organization later apologized for the mishap after the artist stepped off the stage. But this experience demonstrates how callously respected musicians get treated, especially during the season.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Dec 2006, 13:53

No one would complain if 7:30 concerts are stretched beyond 10 (except the bored staff) but it is certainly not fair to the next performer if the 4:45 concert stretches beyond the prescribed time (+/- 5 minutes is quite OK) - I've seen this happen a couple of times and felt that it was not in good taste.

Moreover the Academy does itself a great injustice by having 2.5 hour concerts even for top artistes

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 26 Dec 2006, 14:16

Another view point about the academy, which I dont like.

1.The artists are supposed to give the songs before hand so that it gets published in their souvenir. That is a sure disaster in my opinion, because the vocalist should assess the pakkavAdyam at that time and make the right choice.Needless to say every damn vocal musician should get into the right mindset to deliver his original bhAvam. Afternoon artist(s) generally take the published souvenir route,whereas senior artist most of the time break the rule(which is very good).

2.They select the percussion artist(s) sometimes screwing up the career of the vocal musician, because that one day concert gets reported and pulled down by THE HINDU. Many a times , I see so many new names accompanying fairly good vocal artist(s). Concerts can be a success only when there is pakkA(not pakka)vadhyam.

3. Concerts less than or equal to 2 hours is a more likely disaster that too when you are facing the pressure that the curtains will go down to give way to the evening concert.Sometimes when I attend 2 hours in a morning concert , I see musicians significantly excelling,possibly because they only eat into lunch time(not the next artist's time).

4. 2 1/2 hours is certainly a good time to excel. Excess 3 hours in succession may pull their overall quality ,unless they decide to have a gap of one day .

General advice, take your time to form an opinion about the artist. Start with atleast 2 1/2 hour concert to form your first and best impression about an artist.

gnanasunyam · Post by **gnanasunyam** » 30 Dec 2006, 12:18

Why cannot the Sabha allow the main artist to choose their own accompaniment? When the artists tour outside India, they have a team and the understanding within the team benefits rasikas and artists themselves.

Is it a scheduling nightmare to allow this?

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 03 Jan 2007, 06:15

How many concerts of artistes like Ariyakudi went over two and a half hours? HArdly any, despite having virtually no restrictions from sabhas or rasikas and eight main items! (No exaggeration. One concert I have had Panthuvarali, Thodi, Sankarabharanam, Purvikalyani, Bhairavi, Subhapanthuvarali, Yadukula Kambhoji and Devagandhari and two thanis!).

I personally would rather have a 90 minute concert with a main item in Begada, Dhanyasi or Surutti, rather than a 4 hour concert with the same Chakkani Raja or Kaddanuvarikki, Balagopala or RTPs in Sanmukhapriya (or, horror of horrors! Kapi with Inthasoukyamani).

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 03 Jan 2007, 17:25

AIR always has one hour concerts. the following is what is usually packed into it.

a varnam or some invocatory kritis
one premain - with alapanai and svarams or short neraval and few svarams
one kriti to fill gap (which is sometimes skipped)
one main - alapanai, neraval(?) svarams and tani
if time permits a short piece to finish.

they even have 30 minute concerts at times.

ideal a concert list could have the following

a varnam
an invocatory kriti
a kriti with svarams
a kriti with a short alapanai
the sub main
a piece or two in a fast mood
the main
tani
a short piece to keep the concert going
ragam tanam pallavi
a couple of tukkadas (preferably a padam or javali included)
some ragamalika slokam or viruttam
tillana/thiruppugazh
mangalam.

i am sure, this can fit into a 3 hour slot.
if one cuts of some of the filling pieces then 2.5 hours would also do.

however, each item taken up should be done with full justice. singing a pallavi for 10 min, just because one wanted to sing it, makes no sense.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 04 Jan 2007, 04:02

Related to this topic of concert duration, I find these TV presentations of Carnatic music 'kutcheris' (that usually last 30 minutes) especially unappealing. Somehow the studio type of atmosphere takes away the ambience that one gets at a regular concert with live audience.

On concert duration, 3.5 hours would be more satisfying. Insert couple more kritis between sub-main and the main piece, and we get more depth to the concert. And an RT-kriti (in place of RTP) can also be a nice variation to the usual format.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 04 Jan 2007, 12:02

The DVDs brought out by Charsur are a good idea - but way too expensive at 900 bucks...but, not so perhaps for our NRI brethren who are used to shelling out 20 dollars for a concert!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Jan 2007, 19:45

Vijay,
When we buy these DVDs from the US or anywhere else outside of India, we pay a lot more that just the Rs. 900 converted to our currency. A few years ago, when I was in India, I bought some DVDs paying rupees - the problem: the DVDs carry region specific formats - I can't play them on any of our usual DVD players except on a really cheap portable DVD player! They play well on DVD-ROMs of computers. The problem persists even after ripping the content and re-burning another DVD. So, if I want a DVD badly, I pay the NRI price...

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 05 Jan 2007, 05:08

I agree with rshankar, and although it's not as bad in Singapore the markups can be pretty high and if I have to buy it from a US website (or an Indian website shipping to Singapore) I have to pay a small fortune. The selection in Singapore is pretty pathetic too. I recall spending S$50 (about Rs. 1300) for a CD (no, not a VCD or DVD but a plain audio CD) of Balamurali once.

rshankar, are all DVD players in US region-coded? I have a Philips system and a Grundig system (and a cheap portable one) and they play pretty much anything including region 1, 2 and 3.

And most DVD's now from India have no region coding so you might want to get someone to get them.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 05 Jan 2007, 05:17

Bala,
Yes, most DVD players, especially the higher end ones are region specific, and the current batch of DVD-Rs are all region specific!

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 05 Jan 2007, 05:58

Oh well.. come to Singapore and pick up a set!

, or better still I am sure you can pick up a decoder box in Thailand or Shanghai... Those guys are technical wizards, I tell ya!

Anyway, when I was in India a few weeks ago it was quite amused at this Jaya TV programme which features highlights of some season concert and audience ask questions and stuff... I was waiting for someone to ask "So Sanjay, which store do you buy rice from?" or something like that.. The questions were rather boring after a while and I was wondering if someone would ask what hair tonic Vijay Siva uses! Well it was 5 in the morning and I was bored.

Seriously though, the best concert duration I think is about 3-3.5 hours but there are some pretty good 2 1/2 hour concerts I have heard. Most concerts in Singapore are about 3-3.5 hours but quality wise it's pretty mediocre. The artistes seem to have made up their minds that Singaporeans only deserve certain common ragas with the same old compositions and nothing else. The current trend seems to be Kambhoji and the krithi Tiruvadi Charanam.

A note about RTPs, I realise that the art of Thanam singing is a vanishing one. Nowadays it's seen as simply filler between alapanas and the pallavi. Concerts I hear normally have only 3-5 minutes of thanam but a full 10-20 minutes for ragamalika swaras in ragas I have probably heard a million times (Behag, Sindhubhairavi, Kapi etc). Also, many artistes seem to have forgotten the way to sing thanam and it often sounds atrocious (Nityasree's rendition of thanam in Dharmavathi here was particularly horrible but many others are guilty of this). Maybe they should hear MDR on how to craft an exquisite thanam. In particular, his Kambhoji with O Rangasayee comes to mind, a stellar ragam thanam followed by a full 15 minutes devoted to just the krithi.