Laya Gurus
Please enlighten me on the following questions wrt kala which are confusing me . The first set is general questions and the second is wrt Pallavis.
General
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1. If Im not mistaken, kalai is a measure of the speed of the tala. Is there a specific number of matras for each kriya in a given kalai ? or ios this relative?
I was thinking wrt foll krithis
a. Samajavaragamana - 1 kalai - 4 matras in each kriya
b. Saroja dala netri - ive heard this can be sung in 2 and 4 kalai - is there no arudhi/stress point conflicthere?
c. Karthikeya Gangeya - 2 kalai - 8 matras in each kriya
2. Are there any 4 kalai krithis ?
3. In what kalai are the geethams and varnams set ? Any exceptions?
4. How does the tala prana marga relate to kalai. I assume marga is not in vogue in today's parlance
5. Ive heard before that 2 kalai krithis need not necessarily vilamba kalam . But are all vilamba kala krithis two kalai ? Please cite some examples
6. I assume putting one beats or two beats per kriya is not an indicator of kalai. It is just for ease of tala rendering with a lower kalai. By the same logic, do we put 4 beats per kriya for 4 kalai. I understand managing the talam can get complex here but please provide your inputs
Questions wrt Pallavi
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1. What is the major differentator between 2 kalai and 4 kalai pallavis? Is it the ease of neraval singing in 2 kalai pallavis as com[pared to 4 kalai ? Is it the avartanams in which the pallavis fit?
2. Is pratilomam analogous to kalai change ?
[update][/update]
3. In 4 kalai / 2 kalai pallavi. Is there a specification of number of matras in each kriya ?
questions on kalai, pallavi etc
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Nick H
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- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
It is not. It is not related to speed, in the sense of tempo at all.1. If Im not mistaken, kalai is a measure of the speed of the tala.
That is exactly what it is6. I assume putting one beats or two beats per kriya is not an indicator of kalai.
Please consider your other questions in the light of this. I hope it helps.
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niyer
- Posts: 131
- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 13:21
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
Nick
Thanks for the response. I appreciate it. I was referrring to kalai as the speed of the tala , not tempo of the composition . From an earlier post (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9527)
I gathered from VK Sir that kalai refers to the number of metronome beats in a Tala beat . So twice the kalai , twice the number of metronome beats in a tala beat , which means the speed of rendering the kriyas reduces to get the tala avartanam to last twice the period of 1 kalai . It is in this context that I made the second point that we could choose to put one or two beats per kriya for a two kalai composition( Im sorry I had not worded this point clearly) . What is important is that the matra duration or number of matras per kriya would now increase, either ways reducing the speed of the tala or increasing the duration of the tala avartanam .Am I missing something here ?
Thanks for the response. I appreciate it. I was referrring to kalai as the speed of the tala , not tempo of the composition . From an earlier post (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9527)
I gathered from VK Sir that kalai refers to the number of metronome beats in a Tala beat . So twice the kalai , twice the number of metronome beats in a tala beat , which means the speed of rendering the kriyas reduces to get the tala avartanam to last twice the period of 1 kalai . It is in this context that I made the second point that we could choose to put one or two beats per kriya for a two kalai composition( Im sorry I had not worded this point clearly) . What is important is that the matra duration or number of matras per kriya would now increase, either ways reducing the speed of the tala or increasing the duration of the tala avartanam .Am I missing something here ?
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Nick H
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- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
Not sure. I don't think we are understanding each other --- yet.
I was using speed and tempo in the sense of the delivery of the composition, the speed of singing, the thing a listener would be aware of whether or not they could see any putting of tala. That is not affected by whether the tala is put as 1-kalai or 2-kalai.
The length of the avartanam is fixed by the composition. Nothing speeds up if one chooses to put 2-kalai talam instead of one, except the hand, which now has twice as much work to do per avartanam.
Given the very theoretical instance of one beat taking one second, in 2-kalai one beat takes half a second. An Adi-talam avartanam still lasts 8 seconds
Kalai is not a quantity so much as a method.
It is not really a choice: if a composition is in 2-kallai adi talam, it has 16 beats in its cycle. If an artist should choose to show only half of them...
Anilomam and pratilomam is not analagous to kalai change, it is speed (as in 1st 2nd 3rd etc: I forget the carnatic terminology for this. someone?) . This refers to keeping the talam constant and singing at different speeds, and, keeping the singing constant and putting the talam at different speed. I forget which is which. This affects the number of matras in a beat.
I think that you are mixing up two concepts, and also that it is always best to simplify these things, not complicate them --- but I am far being an expert, so please do not take anything I say as being dogmatic!
I was using speed and tempo in the sense of the delivery of the composition, the speed of singing, the thing a listener would be aware of whether or not they could see any putting of tala. That is not affected by whether the tala is put as 1-kalai or 2-kalai.
The length of the avartanam is fixed by the composition. Nothing speeds up if one chooses to put 2-kalai talam instead of one, except the hand, which now has twice as much work to do per avartanam.
Given the very theoretical instance of one beat taking one second, in 2-kalai one beat takes half a second. An Adi-talam avartanam still lasts 8 seconds
Kalai is not a quantity so much as a method.
It is not really a choice: if a composition is in 2-kallai adi talam, it has 16 beats in its cycle. If an artist should choose to show only half of them...
Anilomam and pratilomam is not analagous to kalai change, it is speed (as in 1st 2nd 3rd etc: I forget the carnatic terminology for this. someone?) . This refers to keeping the talam constant and singing at different speeds, and, keeping the singing constant and putting the talam at different speed. I forget which is which. This affects the number of matras in a beat.
I think that you are mixing up two concepts, and also that it is always best to simplify these things, not complicate them --- but I am far being an expert, so please do not take anything I say as being dogmatic!
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niyer
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- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 13:21
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
Nick
Thanks again for the feedback. If I am taking you on a different tangent , please choose to ignore this
I am just trying to get this concept right and understand it better .
Nick >>"Given the very theoretical instance of one beat taking one second, in 2-kalai one beat takes half a second. An Adi-talam avartanam still lasts 8 seconds"
niyer >> My understanding of the above scenario is that if in 1 kalai one beat takes one second , in 2 kalai one beat takes 2 seconds . If we put two sub-beats per beat then each sub-beat takes one second. In either case total duration of one tala cycle is now 16 seconds , double that of 1 kalai, which is why I mention that the speed of the tala reduces as kalai increases . I could be wrong here, and would request some other members to pitch in with feedback to clarify this
Nick >>"Anilomam and pratilomam is not analagous to kalai change, it is speed (as in 1st 2nd 3rd etc: I forget the carnatic terminology for this. someone?) . This refers to keeping the talam constant and singing at different speeds, and, keeping the singing constant and putting the talam at different speed. I forget which is which. This affects the number of matras in a beat."
niyer >> My question was on pratilomam where speed of song is constant but the tala speed changes . Anmulomam is equivalent to trikalam( is this the terminology you were looking for) where the speed of the composition is chnaged keeping tala speed constant . Again if my understanding that one of the aspects of kalai is tala speed ( the other that Im aware of stress points or arudhi) is correct then pratilomamm seems to involve some kind of kalai change
Im looking forward to most if not all answers to these questions in this forum. VK Sir, Sarmaji, please provide your valuable inputs as well
Thanks again for the feedback. If I am taking you on a different tangent , please choose to ignore this
I am just trying to get this concept right and understand it better .Nick >>"Given the very theoretical instance of one beat taking one second, in 2-kalai one beat takes half a second. An Adi-talam avartanam still lasts 8 seconds"
niyer >> My understanding of the above scenario is that if in 1 kalai one beat takes one second , in 2 kalai one beat takes 2 seconds . If we put two sub-beats per beat then each sub-beat takes one second. In either case total duration of one tala cycle is now 16 seconds , double that of 1 kalai, which is why I mention that the speed of the tala reduces as kalai increases . I could be wrong here, and would request some other members to pitch in with feedback to clarify this
Nick >>"Anilomam and pratilomam is not analagous to kalai change, it is speed (as in 1st 2nd 3rd etc: I forget the carnatic terminology for this. someone?) . This refers to keeping the talam constant and singing at different speeds, and, keeping the singing constant and putting the talam at different speed. I forget which is which. This affects the number of matras in a beat."
niyer >> My question was on pratilomam where speed of song is constant but the tala speed changes . Anmulomam is equivalent to trikalam( is this the terminology you were looking for) where the speed of the composition is chnaged keeping tala speed constant . Again if my understanding that one of the aspects of kalai is tala speed ( the other that Im aware of stress points or arudhi) is correct then pratilomamm seems to involve some kind of kalai change
Im looking forward to most if not all answers to these questions in this forum. VK Sir, Sarmaji, please provide your valuable inputs as well
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hariniraghavan
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Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
Dear niyer, I am not an expert in this subject. Yet since I read a lot of books on CM I think I have understood a few things. Kalai means a measure of time which contains in itself, certain counts or aksharas of the tala. For eg: for one beat of the tala if you count 2 aksharas, just as in samajavaragamana, it is ekakale or 1 kale, if you count 4 aksharas for one beat as i n sarojadalanetri it is dwikale or 2 kales and for such compositions for each beat you eat twice, and if you count 8 aksharas it is chatushkale - 4 kale. Generally 4 kales are used in Pallavis while presenting RTPs.
All vilambakala kritis have 2 kales. In geetams for each beat we have one aksharam only and in varnams each beat has 4 aksharas, and for that we beat twice. Yet the term kale comes into usage o ly with reference to kritis and pallavis. I hope I am clear and not further added to the confusion.
Harini.
All vilambakala kritis have 2 kales. In geetams for each beat we have one aksharam only and in varnams each beat has 4 aksharas, and for that we beat twice. Yet the term kale comes into usage o ly with reference to kritis and pallavis. I hope I am clear and not further added to the confusion.
Harini.
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hariniraghavan
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Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
Hi niyer, forgot to mention about pratiloma in the previous reply. While singing Pallavis, the general trend is to sing theit in 3 speeds. The sequence moving on from 1st speed to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd speed is anuloma and coming back in reverse order 3rd to 2nd to 1st is viloma. But mainting the speed of sahitya as such, if you change the speed of the tala from 1st to 2nd to 3rd, it is called pratiloma.
Harini.
Harini.
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vasanthakokilam
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Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
What harini succinctly states sounds correct to me. She is using aksharas to refer to the syllables/swaras within a beat and I think that is the correct usage. ( people use akharams with a different meaning, but let us stick to this one here )
Now, people usually do not define what an rhythmic akshara is. In the rhythm context. I like to think of it as a 'minor accent/stress in the song'.
For us to sense rhythm there has to be a change of something. It is usually volume, pitch, timber or a break. In physics terms, they map to Amplitude, Pitch, Harmonics and Absence of all these. ( there may be more but this is good enough for our purpose ).
A swara sung continously in the same volume, same pitch and without varying voice timbre will not give you any sense of a referece rhythm. One or more of the four needs to change. A small break is good enough too. Any of these, by itself or in combination gives us the sense of accent/stress. In the compositions, we sense these accents naturally which gives us the clues to keep the thala.
Let us define this interval between two such accents as the rhythmic aksharam. This is the lowest of our accent duration. This does not mean the song does not have accents of smaller duration but there has to be a reference and the reference accent duration is usually set at the beginning of the song by the composer and it is sensable by us.
The tempo is defined by the number of such aksharams per minute. And it usually does not change during a song. Different artists can sing the same composition in different tempos. All this means is their akshara kAla is different.
Let us use Harini's standard. We sense a major stress/accent every 2 aksharams. Let us define this as the1 kaLai beat.
In many songs, we can also sense a variation in that major stress on alternating 1 kalai beat giving us an Odd/Even pulse.
(That is also sometimes colloquially referred to as "tha ka dhi mi/tha ka ju nu" pattern to indicate that such songs can be fully described by such alternating pulses. )
(We are restricting our discussion to chathsram here. In thisram, we will sense that major accent every 3 aksharams, in khanam, it is every 5th aksharam etc. So 1 kaLai beat can have different aksharams depending on the gathi)
If there is an Arudhi in the song, that is even a bigger stress. That is a mega stress.
We can intrinsically sense the akshara accent, 1 kalai beat accent, the odd/even beat accents and the arudhi accent. A certain number of these accents define the thala cycle. Having established such a tempo as defined by the akshara duration, variations on accent durations are seen in songs. Those are the speed changes but the tempo of the song does not change. That is the difference between tempo ( kAlam, constancy of akshara kAla ) and speed ( say, fitting two or four swarams in an akshara kAla ).
A song that we usually think of as in Adi 2 Kalai will have 32 discernible akshara accents. Adi 1 kaLai songs will 16 discernible akshara accents. So kaLai is not just a matter of how you keep the thala. ( atleast I would like to believe that until someone changes my mind!! ). Of course, one can say we can always keep the 32 aksharas 2 cycles of adi.
But if we sense a strong arudhi stress after 16 aksharas in the song then by convention that is supposed to be at the middle of the thala cycle ( for Adi ). That indirectly defines that there are 4 aksharams to each Adi Kriya and not 2 aksharams. Again, that is also convention and part of the CM idiom.
These are the foundations as I understand it. How we keep the thala to mark off these accents is purely an external manifestation and so it does not really matter what we call them, 1 kaLai, 2 kaLai etc. It is our thala keeping convention that we keep a hand motion(tap) every two aksharams which necessitates that we keep two taps for each Adi kriya of a 2 kaLai adi song.
Now, people usually do not define what an rhythmic akshara is. In the rhythm context. I like to think of it as a 'minor accent/stress in the song'.
For us to sense rhythm there has to be a change of something. It is usually volume, pitch, timber or a break. In physics terms, they map to Amplitude, Pitch, Harmonics and Absence of all these. ( there may be more but this is good enough for our purpose ).
A swara sung continously in the same volume, same pitch and without varying voice timbre will not give you any sense of a referece rhythm. One or more of the four needs to change. A small break is good enough too. Any of these, by itself or in combination gives us the sense of accent/stress. In the compositions, we sense these accents naturally which gives us the clues to keep the thala.
Let us define this interval between two such accents as the rhythmic aksharam. This is the lowest of our accent duration. This does not mean the song does not have accents of smaller duration but there has to be a reference and the reference accent duration is usually set at the beginning of the song by the composer and it is sensable by us.
The tempo is defined by the number of such aksharams per minute. And it usually does not change during a song. Different artists can sing the same composition in different tempos. All this means is their akshara kAla is different.
Let us use Harini's standard. We sense a major stress/accent every 2 aksharams. Let us define this as the1 kaLai beat.
In many songs, we can also sense a variation in that major stress on alternating 1 kalai beat giving us an Odd/Even pulse.
(That is also sometimes colloquially referred to as "tha ka dhi mi/tha ka ju nu" pattern to indicate that such songs can be fully described by such alternating pulses. )
(We are restricting our discussion to chathsram here. In thisram, we will sense that major accent every 3 aksharams, in khanam, it is every 5th aksharam etc. So 1 kaLai beat can have different aksharams depending on the gathi)
If there is an Arudhi in the song, that is even a bigger stress. That is a mega stress.
We can intrinsically sense the akshara accent, 1 kalai beat accent, the odd/even beat accents and the arudhi accent. A certain number of these accents define the thala cycle. Having established such a tempo as defined by the akshara duration, variations on accent durations are seen in songs. Those are the speed changes but the tempo of the song does not change. That is the difference between tempo ( kAlam, constancy of akshara kAla ) and speed ( say, fitting two or four swarams in an akshara kAla ).
A song that we usually think of as in Adi 2 Kalai will have 32 discernible akshara accents. Adi 1 kaLai songs will 16 discernible akshara accents. So kaLai is not just a matter of how you keep the thala. ( atleast I would like to believe that until someone changes my mind!! ). Of course, one can say we can always keep the 32 aksharas 2 cycles of adi.
But if we sense a strong arudhi stress after 16 aksharas in the song then by convention that is supposed to be at the middle of the thala cycle ( for Adi ). That indirectly defines that there are 4 aksharams to each Adi Kriya and not 2 aksharams. Again, that is also convention and part of the CM idiom.
These are the foundations as I understand it. How we keep the thala to mark off these accents is purely an external manifestation and so it does not really matter what we call them, 1 kaLai, 2 kaLai etc. It is our thala keeping convention that we keep a hand motion(tap) every two aksharams which necessitates that we keep two taps for each Adi kriya of a 2 kaLai adi song.
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niyer
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Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
VK Sir and Harini
Thx a lot for clarifying most of the doubts. Differentitatio of speed,tempo, and major and minor stress points in the song helps think of kalai in a diffrent and better light independent of external tala manifestations . Also intuitively I can't help agreeing on the relationship between major stress points and tala cycle, which could relate to kalai being defined as the number of aksharas in a kriya
The following questions remain
a. Difference between kalai and marga ? Is there any?
b. Sarojadalaneththri - ive heard can be sung with 1 kalai and 2 kalai ? Are there no major stress point confilcts here ?
Thx a lot for clarifying most of the doubts. Differentitatio of speed,tempo, and major and minor stress points in the song helps think of kalai in a diffrent and better light independent of external tala manifestations . Also intuitively I can't help agreeing on the relationship between major stress points and tala cycle, which could relate to kalai being defined as the number of aksharas in a kriya
The following questions remain
a. Difference between kalai and marga ? Is there any?
b. Sarojadalaneththri - ive heard can be sung with 1 kalai and 2 kalai ? Are there no major stress point confilcts here ?
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hariniraghavan
- Posts: 170
- Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 20:48
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
Dear niyer,
actually speaking there is no difference between marga and kalai. There are different types of margas which are same as the different kalais.
I don't know about sarojadalanetri being sung with 1 kalai. I know that muddumomu in suryakantha is sung at 1 kalai and 2 kalai. such stress conflicts are faced because by singing in 1kalai, only the number of avartas will be doubled.
Harini.
actually speaking there is no difference between marga and kalai. There are different types of margas which are same as the different kalais.
I don't know about sarojadalanetri being sung with 1 kalai. I know that muddumomu in suryakantha is sung at 1 kalai and 2 kalai. such stress conflicts are faced because by singing in 1kalai, only the number of avartas will be doubled.
Harini.
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hariniraghavan
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- Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 20:48
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
sorry for the mistake. conflicts of stress are NOT faced in singing muddumomu in 2 kalais.
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keerthi
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- Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
niyer,
Regarding your question about krti-s being 1 or 2 Kalai, I have posted in some other thread in the past..
my opinion is that there is no clear cut way of identifying an unheard krti as being 1 or 2 kalai from the lyric or the notation.
There is the suggestion that the position of the arudi (virAmam) can be used to reckon kaLai, but i'm not so sure; given that kRti-s with an arudi in the pallavi, are only seen after the pallavi-s (as in ragam-tanam-pallavi) with an arudi became popular.
When this happened is a topic for more serious research; but It would have roughly happened at the time before the trinity, as it can be seen in some of Pallavi gOpAlayya's songs and shyAma shAstri's songs that the arudi is absent.
I have read in an article by prof. M.B.Vedavalli that there were pallavi-s(the RTP kind) with no arudi, but these have gone out of vogue, and in modern practise, all pallavi-s are endowed with a (mostly) centrally located virAmaM.
Hence, there are many examples of songs having pATAntara-s in more than one kaLai.
I can think of -
1. Mitri bhAgyamE/ chitra ratnamaya in Kharaharapriya,
2. rakSA bettarE - in Bhairavi
3. inta saukhyam in Kapi
This difference may be treated as a pATAntara.
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Regarding what entails viLamba-kAlam, the answer is right in the question. Krti-s that have a suitably gentle pace are in viLamba-kAlam.
chauka-kalam(CK) or viLamba-kAlam is not in singing 2 kaLai kRti-s.
There are renditions like say, GNB's of Raghuvara nannu in pantuvarALi (2 kalai), that is at a racy pace, and doesn't qualify as vilamba gati.
Mishra chApu songs that take a langurous tempo qualify as CK. examples would include certain renditions of Marivere gathi - Anandabhairavi, and O rAjIvAkSa (Arabhi).
Two Kalai rUpaka tAla kRti-s like srI-subrahmanyAya namaste, that can only take slow pace, are also treated as CK.
It is possible to give a viLamba kAla rendition of a piece that is not normally sung in that pace.
Regarding your question about krti-s being 1 or 2 Kalai, I have posted in some other thread in the past..
my opinion is that there is no clear cut way of identifying an unheard krti as being 1 or 2 kalai from the lyric or the notation.
There is the suggestion that the position of the arudi (virAmam) can be used to reckon kaLai, but i'm not so sure; given that kRti-s with an arudi in the pallavi, are only seen after the pallavi-s (as in ragam-tanam-pallavi) with an arudi became popular.
When this happened is a topic for more serious research; but It would have roughly happened at the time before the trinity, as it can be seen in some of Pallavi gOpAlayya's songs and shyAma shAstri's songs that the arudi is absent.
I have read in an article by prof. M.B.Vedavalli that there were pallavi-s(the RTP kind) with no arudi, but these have gone out of vogue, and in modern practise, all pallavi-s are endowed with a (mostly) centrally located virAmaM.
Hence, there are many examples of songs having pATAntara-s in more than one kaLai.
I can think of -
1. Mitri bhAgyamE/ chitra ratnamaya in Kharaharapriya,
2. rakSA bettarE - in Bhairavi
3. inta saukhyam in Kapi
This difference may be treated as a pATAntara.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding what entails viLamba-kAlam, the answer is right in the question. Krti-s that have a suitably gentle pace are in viLamba-kAlam.
chauka-kalam(CK) or viLamba-kAlam is not in singing 2 kaLai kRti-s.
There are renditions like say, GNB's of Raghuvara nannu in pantuvarALi (2 kalai), that is at a racy pace, and doesn't qualify as vilamba gati.
Mishra chApu songs that take a langurous tempo qualify as CK. examples would include certain renditions of Marivere gathi - Anandabhairavi, and O rAjIvAkSa (Arabhi).
Two Kalai rUpaka tAla kRti-s like srI-subrahmanyAya namaste, that can only take slow pace, are also treated as CK.
It is possible to give a viLamba kAla rendition of a piece that is not normally sung in that pace.
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niyer
- Posts: 131
- Joined: 17 Oct 2007, 13:21
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
keerthi
thanks for the interesting and rich perspective that you , Harini,VK Sir and others bring to the laya aspects bring
I have the following queries :
a) harini says that all vilamba kala krithis are 2 kalai
VK sir says that he believes that kalai is musically significant and is associated with major stress points in the composition
The above two statements seem to suggest ( at least IMO) that one needs to sing a 2 kalai composition as a 2 kalai with 4 rhythmic aksharas per beat ( accentuated syllables )
Do you agree to the above or do you think that a 2 kalai composition can be sung with 1 kalai adi talam without any loss of its musical completeness
eg: Sri Subramanyaya Namaste -> can it also be sung with 1 kalai
b) one the same lines , can vilamba kala krithis be sung using any of the two kalais ?
c) Does kalai concept( assuming the existence of such a concept as VK Sir explained) apply to Misra Chappu and Khanda Chappu talas ?
thanks for the interesting and rich perspective that you , Harini,VK Sir and others bring to the laya aspects bring
I have the following queries :
a) harini says that all vilamba kala krithis are 2 kalai
VK sir says that he believes that kalai is musically significant and is associated with major stress points in the composition
The above two statements seem to suggest ( at least IMO) that one needs to sing a 2 kalai composition as a 2 kalai with 4 rhythmic aksharas per beat ( accentuated syllables )
Do you agree to the above or do you think that a 2 kalai composition can be sung with 1 kalai adi talam without any loss of its musical completeness
eg: Sri Subramanyaya Namaste -> can it also be sung with 1 kalai
b) one the same lines , can vilamba kala krithis be sung using any of the two kalais ?
c) Does kalai concept( assuming the existence of such a concept as VK Sir explained) apply to Misra Chappu and Khanda Chappu talas ?
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keerthi
- Posts: 1309
- Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
i can't back my answers with any textual authority, but will use a slightly different method of answering your question.
There is the older chitratara, chitratama and atichitratama mArga way of marking number of akshara-s per tAla beat, which is now next to obsolete.. The last I saw of it was in Dr. PinAkapAni's notations.
It is my opinion that the notion of tAla and kaLai are independent of the notion of kAlam (i.e. kAlapramAnaM) of the song. When one sings a song, it becomes quite evident that for each voice, and each krti, there is a narrow range of tempi (plural of tempo??) that are optimal.
Clues can be got from the songs themselves. Sometimes there are certain long kArvai-s or there is the madhyamakAla sAhityam which can help us to mark the slowest and fastest speed for a song possible by us, without making it sound like a dirge or like recitation of prose.
Of course, the optimal tempi may vary for instruments [ veena can't produce kArvai-s as long as voice, hence accelerate slightly etc.]
I have heard Vilamba kAla krti-s in Misra chApu and khanda chApu.. The tAla wasn't reckoned by two beats for each of the regular chApu, but it was the vilamba kAal version of the tAla.
Some people historically have solved this problem by force-fitting (a la Procrustes) the vilamba Khanda chApu krti into mishra jhampa, and the Vilamba Mishra chApu into Mishra Eka or triputa. (Latter is less of a force-fitting).
I am sure a lot of this is unsubstantiated drivel; but that will be solved by the peer(less) reviewers of rasikas..!
There is the older chitratara, chitratama and atichitratama mArga way of marking number of akshara-s per tAla beat, which is now next to obsolete.. The last I saw of it was in Dr. PinAkapAni's notations.
It is my opinion that the notion of tAla and kaLai are independent of the notion of kAlam (i.e. kAlapramAnaM) of the song. When one sings a song, it becomes quite evident that for each voice, and each krti, there is a narrow range of tempi (plural of tempo??) that are optimal.
Clues can be got from the songs themselves. Sometimes there are certain long kArvai-s or there is the madhyamakAla sAhityam which can help us to mark the slowest and fastest speed for a song possible by us, without making it sound like a dirge or like recitation of prose.
Of course, the optimal tempi may vary for instruments [ veena can't produce kArvai-s as long as voice, hence accelerate slightly etc.]
I have heard Vilamba kAla krti-s in Misra chApu and khanda chApu.. The tAla wasn't reckoned by two beats for each of the regular chApu, but it was the vilamba kAal version of the tAla.
Some people historically have solved this problem by force-fitting (a la Procrustes) the vilamba Khanda chApu krti into mishra jhampa, and the Vilamba Mishra chApu into Mishra Eka or triputa. (Latter is less of a force-fitting).
I am sure a lot of this is unsubstantiated drivel; but that will be solved by the peer(less) reviewers of rasikas..!
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keerthi
- Posts: 1309
- Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
I feel so funny, repeating myself.. A lot of my ideas here (as it turns out) are repeats of what I have posted in response to another similar Question about 1 and 2 kalai.
I feel such a fraud, given that I couldn't come up with new examples and have this scarcity of ideas that I have to recycle, but I had forgotten all about the other thread till VK revived it yesterday..
I feel such a fraud, given that I couldn't come up with new examples and have this scarcity of ideas that I have to recycle, but I had forgotten all about the other thread till VK revived it yesterday..
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: questions on kalai, pallavi etc
which is perfectly fine, keerthi!
Keerthi, I know your statements are based on textual references or atleast you attempt to find info from such sources. Much appreicated. I did not know anything about chitratara, chitratama and atichitratama mArga. If you have any further info on what these are, please share.
I also agree that kaLai and tempo are independent.
>Some people historically have solved this problem by force-fitting (a la Procrustes) the vilamba Khanda chApu krti
>into mishra jhampa, and the Vilamba Mishra chApu into Mishra Eka or triputa. (Latter is less of a force-fitting).
I can understand this if all people have done is in the realm of external thala reckoning. But I would like to believe that the songs that are REALLY in chapu, the musically significant stress points have to have that mixed gathi rhythmic feel.
For the record let me state whatever I have stated is not based on any textual references but more based on some reverse engineered observations, general information gathering and the info available about rhythm. I am glad niyer is cross checking what I write.
In fact, I would like a critical evaluation and hole-spotting of what I had written in the prior posts in this thread, not just for consistency with our CM tradition as found in old books but also, in general, if it sounds reasonable/correct or not.
Keerthi, I know your statements are based on textual references or atleast you attempt to find info from such sources. Much appreicated. I did not know anything about chitratara, chitratama and atichitratama mArga. If you have any further info on what these are, please share.
I also agree that kaLai and tempo are independent.
>Some people historically have solved this problem by force-fitting (a la Procrustes) the vilamba Khanda chApu krti
>into mishra jhampa, and the Vilamba Mishra chApu into Mishra Eka or triputa. (Latter is less of a force-fitting).
I can understand this if all people have done is in the realm of external thala reckoning. But I would like to believe that the songs that are REALLY in chapu, the musically significant stress points have to have that mixed gathi rhythmic feel.
For the record let me state whatever I have stated is not based on any textual references but more based on some reverse engineered observations, general information gathering and the info available about rhythm. I am glad niyer is cross checking what I write.
In fact, I would like a critical evaluation and hole-spotting of what I had written in the prior posts in this thread, not just for consistency with our CM tradition as found in old books but also, in general, if it sounds reasonable/correct or not.