Jayachamaraja Odeyar (Mysore Maharajah) - Part II

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 06 Sep 2006, 22:40

mnsriram wrote:We would be grateful if you could maybe take up compositions of another composer on similar lines, in addition to yours (we are waiting for you to resume the rAmAyaNa discussion and also get a taste of some of your other compositions ).

Regards,
Sriram

Dear Sriram. Thanks much for your appreciation.

Much as I do not like to disappoint you, I also dont want to feel frustrated at my end. I dont get much by sharing all my knowledge/expertise. People have a problem even expressing appreciation or participating in the discussion. I would rather publish a book as there would at least be monetary return (However paltry, and hardly do I need it). At least that is something in return. And when I posted my compositions, expect the 2 of you, majority were happy silently downloading or making lame excuses for not practising or posting.

On this thread, I have spared no effort in digging out the rare kRtis of oDeyar and posting them as well as discussing them. See for yourself if even one person has metnioned a word of thanks for the last several kRtis I have posted. ANd when I said I will be closing the thread, again there are hardly any responses. Why should I be wasting my time and energy in doing all this? I too will join the rest of the silent rasikas for a while.

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 06 Sep 2006, 22:57

DRS sir,

While I understand your frustations, I can only say that (sorry for the plagiarism from the Gita!!!)

gnAnEnatu tadgnAnam nAshitam srIkAntam |
tEsamAdityavagnAnam prakASayati tat param ||

Hope that made sense!!!

I have found that in any forum there are only a few that actually participate; most passively absorb. That is rewarding in itself...

Let me add my thanks to your genius, and hope that I recieve a miniscule bit of it as a blessing!

Cheers
Ninja

sriucl · Post by **sriucl** » 07 Sep 2006, 00:50

DRS,

I have submitted a thank you note earlier and once again doing it. Perhaps, you didnt see the earlier one. It has indeed been very nice to share all these krithis with meanings and interpretations and without the help of yours and this forum, myself and others would have no way come to learn abt JCW and his compositions.

My sincere thanks to you once again. I must also thank and appreciate the efforts of others - Coolkarni,CML,RC and others who have contributed to this.

Regards,

Srivathsan

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Sep 2006, 01:04

DRS,
When I call you sarva vyApi, I don't mean just you but all your knowledge, talent, ability and hard work which has permeated this forum. Though my words on rasikas forum have a frequent flyer status, I hesitated to speak about your merits in a sweeping way. I wanted to go through your work more thoroughly before making any off the cuff comments. I do think there are others like me who are dazzled by your talents. I am thankful to you. An exaggerated example perhaps, but it is a bit like kuchElA trying to thank KrishnA. Your talents and travails are immense.
Moreover, you would agree with me if I say that you do know without our spelling it out that you are admired no end. Above all, all the human expressions pale in the joy that you derive in singing hymns about the gods and in dedicating your time in bringing ODeyAr's kritis for all to admire...
mAdhava sEve jothe mAnava sEve. ellagintha sangeeta sEve. sriyakkAntharavara kalyaNa guNagaLu nijavE, nijavE...

Need I say, heartfelt thanks are also due to RC, cml, coolji and the rest of the valuable contributors?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 01:55

sriucl wrote:DRS,

I have submitted a thank you note earlier and once again doing it. Perhaps, you didnt see the earlier one.

Srivatshan. Perhaps I was not clear in what I said. My apologies. I have seen your note earlier too. I said that the last several recordings of kRtis I posted were each downloaded 25 to 30 times BUT not one acknowledged it.

Arasi
Firstly, thanks for your kind words.
There are lots of people among the silent rasikas who are actually quite knowledgable in music. Surely the discussions can be a lot lovelier if they spoke at least some time. And when I posted my kRtis, Im sure many out there could have taken the time to learn at least one or two of them and poste it here or even sent it to me by email. I have a busy schedule too so that cannot be an excuse even after significant lengths of time.

It is rather sad that responses are not forthcoming until I express dissatisfaction in no uncertain terms. I dont like to say these things. Nor am I reacting in a hot moment. After considerable thought, I have come to the conclusion that it is perhaps not a good idea to expect feedback. Likewise it is not fair to me to be putting in so much time and effort and enthusiasm and feel saddened. So it is much better that I happily follow the forum like most people do and contribute here and there without feeling that "I owe it to everyone" regardless what I get/do not get in return.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Sep 2006, 01:58

(With due permission from dAsaru)

shrIkAntha emagiShTu dayamADO tandE!
EkAntadallE mattaShTu Alisuva soubhAgya !!

-Ramakriya

p.s: DRS, The kAnaDa meTTu of the original suits the dainya bhAva of the active and not so active forumers

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 02:28

Right! Now coming to what I wanted to say at the end of discussions. Although Raja Chandra has promised to post the last few compositions, let me do my speech now

It has been a momentous journey for me to be discussing nearly all the kRtis of a proliferous and serious composer that oDeyar is. In the process, I have discovered a lot about myself too. Iam happy that I have been able to contribute my mite in helping others to become aware of, understand and appreciate oDeyar in whatever little way. I hope that this helps in further popularising his kRtis on the concert platform.

As coolkarni posted the first kRti on the thread(Old one), he expressed a twinge of sadness about an earlier posting of one of oDeyar's kRtis elsewhere on the forum going unnoticed, so to speak. Then I started discussing the kRtis and made a promise to coolkarni that he will see the discussions being carried on for a long time. Thus it was that I got the responsibilty for carrying the thread on with discussions. It was a heavy reponsibility that I carried for a long while and now want to be relieved of as I think I have done what I needed to. I have to make paricular mention of some people here who have contributed to these discussions.

During this long journey, many have contributed significantly. A large chunk of the compositions came from the ever-generous and thoughtful Kulkarni's collection, the rest being contributed by Raja Chandra and myself. Also, coolkarni ensured that my discussions of each rAga becames so much easier to grasp by posting relevant clips and recordings. abadri helped him in this task. Without the clips, the disucssons of both the kRtis and the rAgas would have been a mere academic exercise, quite dry at times. It would be no different from me writing a thesis or a book on oDeyar's kRtis. And without discussions, posting the kRtis would have been meaningless.

Raja Chandra has further enriched the discussions by posting some kRtis, sharing rare and beautiful photos and images as well as anecdotes. This has helped us understand oDeyar as a person rather than just as a composer. We could get a feel of his life, times and influences. In fact oDeyar became that much closer to us.

I, on belhalf of all rasikas, particularly have to express my gratitude to Cmlover for being a critic (constructive of course) of my analyses and discussions. He helped to keep me on my feet making sure that I knew what I was writing about. His constant encouragement and kind words, not to mention his scholarly contributions have been a source of encouragement. Meena deserves our thanks for her meticulous collation and consolidation of all the discussions here and for helping out with lists and details as and when they were asked for(Mind you, I made several such requests for the lists

.

I also wish to thank all the others who actively participated by asking questions and adding what they knew, thus helping the discussions and also in encouraging me in persevering with my efforts. Last but not the least, thanks are due to srkris for providing this platform for discussing what is dear to all our hearts. Thank you all.

Let me conclude with a quote from Shakespeare

If music be be the food of love, then play on.

P.S- My apologies to anybody who feels I ought to have mentioned them particularly but have not. It is certainly unintentional.

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 07 Sep 2006, 04:46

Which compositions of Wodeyar are to be discussed in addition to the Madhyamavathi composition?If someone can post a list,I can post them if I have them if I have any of the remaining ones with me now.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 04:57

Only 4 kRtis remain

91. SrI cAmuNDESvarIm- madhyamAvati- Adi.
92. pAhimAm SrI- jayasamvardhani- khaNDa tripuTa.
93. suvarNAngi rAjamAtangi- suvarNAngi- miSra jhampe.
94. bhuvanESvari- mArgahindOLa- Adi

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 07 Sep 2006, 05:08

Here is the Suvarnangi composition of HH -
http://www.quickdump.com/files/898221571.html

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 05:28

mAtu of ||suvarNAngi||

rAga: suvarNAngi ; miSra jhampe tALa

suvarNAngi rAjamAtangi |
SivArdhAngi hIra maNimayAngi jaganmOhanAngi ||P||

suratharAja kaivalya pradAyini |
suprasiddha navAkShara bRhannAyaki ||
suradAnavAdi vinutE satya j~nAnAnanta saccidAnanda pada sambOdhitE ||AP||

kAmESvara manOhari sarasAngi |
kAmakOTi pITha nilayE ratnAngi |
kAmAkShi kAntAmaNi mAtangi |
kAmavairi mOhanakari hEmAngi ||
vAmadEvAdi pancavaktrESvara vAmAnkavAsini SrIvidyAntaranga nivAsini ||C||

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 05:50

Notes on ||suvarNAngi||

rAga: suvarNAngi ; miSra jhampe tALa

suvarNAngi- Golden limbed One; rAjamAtangi;
SivArdhAngi- You Who have taken over half of ISvara;
hIra maNimayAngi- You Whose body is adorned with diamond various gems; jaganmOhanAngi- You Who have a beauty that enchants the whole universe.

suratharAja kaivalya pradAyini- You Who granted salvation to king suratha.
Click on this link to read he story of King suratha in the dEvI bhAgavata.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/db/bk05ch32.htm

suprasiddha navAkShara bRhannAyaki- You Who are the mistress of the famed navAkShari(9-lettered) mantra of cAmuNDi/caNDi
Om aim hrIm klIm cAmuNDAyai viccE |

sura dAnavAdi vinutE- You Who are praised by dEvas and dAnavas alike;
satya j~nAna ananta saccidAnanda pada sambOdhitE- You Who are called by names(brahma vAcya) such as satya, j~nAna, ananta, saccidAnanda
satyam j~nAnam anatam brahma |

kAmESvara manOhari- You Who captivates the heart of kAmESvara; sarasAngi- You with a comely form;
kAmakOTi pITha nilayE- You Who reside int the kAmakOTi pITha;
ratnAngi- You Who are adorned with rubies;
kAmAkShi; kAntAmaNi- You Who are a jewel among beautiful women/ wives; mAtangi;
kAmavairi mOhanakari- You Who has enamoured the foe of manmatha/ Cupid; hEmAngi- You with gold on your form;
vAmadEvAdi pancavaktrESvara vAmAnkavAsini- You Who are seated on the left thigh of the 5-faced ISvara;
SrIvidyAntaranga nivAsini- You Who reside in the essence/soul of SrIvidyA.

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 07 Sep 2006, 06:44

drshrikaanth: I hadn't realized the discussions on JCRW is coming to a completion (sigh!) . Unfortunately, I had only came into the board late in the middle of this second thread. I guess good things have to come an end ....

Anyhow, it would be nice to revisit the older thread and hopefully its been archived for future reference.

I have to say your explanations are always exhaustive and represent the depth of your knowledge in music as well as the ShAstrAs . Your notations are quite easy to follow and wondered whether you have notated these songs in transiteration so future music learners could learn and promulgate them.

Just a heads up on one thing: I know yours was for illustrative purposes(BTW, you've left out another bIjAkshara in the caNdi mantra) , but I was told by a religious scholar many years ago that the mUla mantrAs of deities should never be published or recited loudly as their efficacy lie in the manner the sAdhaka (aspirant) carries out the chanting following upadESha(initiation) through the guru, hence the complete fruit of the recitation depends on the ability of the sAdhaka to continue the japa in the manner taught to him/her. Contrarily, today on occasion you could view live telecasts of yAgAs where the mantrAs are recited loudly for all to hear and I have heard a musician or two recorded mantrAs (decline to name them).

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Sep 2006, 07:05

Very nice kriti.

No less than 5 mELakathas embedded in the sAhitya.

Left as an excercise

to readers.

-Ramakriya

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Sep 2006, 07:29

DRS,
Who are the singers?

Ramakriya,
I got 3/5...hopefully I will be educated when you reveal all of them...
Ravi

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 07 Sep 2006, 08:34

I think it is M.S.Sheela

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 07 Sep 2006, 08:37

suvarnangi,ratnangi,sarasangi,kanthamani and jaganmohana(jhalarnavam).Other ragas occuring are mohana,nayaki,manohari,part of hemavathi(hemangi)

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Sep 2006, 09:07

kartik wrote:I think it is M.S.Sheela

Are you sure? Sounded like T S Satyavathi ( or may be Vasantamadhavi) to me

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Sep 2006, 09:09

kartik wrote:suvarnangi,ratnangi,sarasangi,kanthamani and jaganmohana(jhalarnavam).Other ragas occuring are mohana,nayaki,manohari,part of hemavathi(hemangi)

Right ! That's why I said no less than 5, considering hemAngi

-Ramakriya

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 07 Sep 2006, 09:57

Beautiful! The music is so much better when enjoyed with knowledge of the meaning of the sahitya... Bit sad that I missed a lot of the earlier pages... Is there a possibility that the first thread - which discussed most of the ckrithis - is archived anywhere? I could not find it...

DRS sir, can you also post the cittaswaram? thanks!

Cheers
ninja

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Sep 2006, 10:17

Excellent DRS

Very nice kriti and excellent discussion! The show is not over yet. The show will be over only after the oldman says 'tathAstu'

Thanks Kartik! Please find the rest or help us find the rest. JC is now part of our CM musical heritage! The part II alone has received more than 30,000 hits. which means that the whole world now knows about his musical excellence through the masterful discussions of DRS.

Here is a historical flashback for you latecomers.

coolkarni wrote:

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 07:02 Post subject: Jayachamarajendra Wodeyars (Mysore Maharajah) Compositions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
continuing our discussions in a different thread, i will upload tracks from AIR bangalore relays.
I must thank my friend Karthik Krishnaswamy for the painstaking effort in compiling these.
There are 56 in all and i start with the first in Chakravakam.

DRS responded:

Posted: 05 Aug 2005 13:21

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

kulkarni
this thread will run very long I assure you.
The introduction is very good and sounds even better in sweet, chaste kannaDa. There is a minor error though- she mentions SyAmA SAstri as having composed on bangAru mInAkShi. We all know it is bangAru kAmAkShi although he has composed sevreal lovely kRtis on mInAkShi as well.

and DRS has kept his promise. I am glad karthik is back to finish off as he was instrumental at the start.

Folks

Dont take DRS's 'angst' seriously. Every professor is concerned about his teachings and wishes to know whether all the students got the points. In the cyberworld even though you are invisible you have to speakup to show that you are following! I dont blame you folks since this form of CM education is new for you and you took for granted 'silence' means 'understood'. I was talking (that was my only contribution!) for most of you all the time. Many times DRS had to 'shut me off' to move on! But I was bent on extracting the last ounce of information from him and failed miserably since I now know that he has an inexhaustible store of knowledge. Unfortunately I am not a musician and hence could not challenge him on 'musical issues' and I hoped some of you would! It is not too late yet. Please partake the nectar of JC's music and serve it back in your own music for us rasikas! The 'teacher' is around to correct you!

No course is over without a Q&A session as well as a course evaluation! Shoot! Let us help DRS to hit a century with all your help! (I hope he will supplement and make the 94 into a 100 with his own compositions in a fitting honour for the Monarch!).

If you all agree we can start a new thread of appreciation of HH JC in the light of discussions by DRS; after the mangalam on this thread. By the by who wants to compose the mangalam? And who wants to sing it?

Brainstorm ideas ...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 12:34

Ramakriya is right. The singers are indeed T.S.Sathyavathi and P. Rama. Sathyavathi is the one who says the sAhitya.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 12:46

kmrasika wrote:( Anyhow, it would be nice to revisit the older thread and hopefully its been archived for future reference.

Indeed. srkris has been spending a lot of his time and energy doing just that. The old thread is there to be read. It is under the "Work in progress" section which is the bottom-most forum.

Your notations are quite easy to follow and wondered whether you have notated these songs in transiteration so future music learners could learn and promulgate them.

I havent found the time to notate these. In what little time I have left after all these discussions, I sleep

and also notate my own compositions. However, there are no dearth of musicians waiting to notate these kRtis. Thee is an issue with copyright(?) and I have heard that Srikatha Datta Wodeyar, the son of J.C.Odeyar has declinedd permission to publish the notations. Raja Chandra can throw more light on this matter I hope.

Just a heads up on one thing: I know yours was for illustrative purposes(BTW, you've left out another bIjAkshara in the caNdi mantra) , but I was told by a religious scholar many years ago that the mUla mantrAs of deities should never be published or recited loudly as their efficacy lie in the manner the sAdhaka (aspirant) carries out the chanting following upadESha(initiation) through the guru,---

Thanks for pointing out the omissions. I have corrected it. BTW, you are absolutely right about the potency of a mantra being entirely due to the sAdhaka's chanting. I see the mntras are available for all to read on the net or in books. As such, I dont think harm ensues by making the mantras public. And I will leave it to Her to ward off any ill-effects and keep me safe.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 12:47

ninjathegreat wrote:DRS sir, can you also post the cittaswaram? thanks!

Ninja
It is here that I want others to chip in. Asking me to post the ciTTeswara is like overloading a horse's back:D One of you who have downloaded the song, please jot down and post the ciTTeswara.

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 07 Sep 2006, 13:19

drshrikaanth wrote:
ninjathegreat wrote:DRS sir, can you also post the cittaswaram? thanks!
Ninja
It is here that I want others to chip in. Asking me to post the ciTTeswara is like overloading a horse's back:D One of you who have downloaded the song, please jot down and post the ciTTeswara.

I will make an attempt tomorrow...

Cheers
ninja

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 13:47

cmlover wrote:The part II alone has received more than 30,000 hits. which means that the whole world now knows about his musical excellence through the masterful discussions of DRS.

Yes indeed. The 2 threads combined have had nearly 1 lakh hits(100K)!
This thread about 32K and about15k times before the old server crash(When all the threads had to be ressurrected). The old thread had been read about 30K times as well earler. And now it shows 7 thousand and odd hits

Is that not goo enough reason to expect more participation!

sriucl · Post by **sriucl** » 07 Sep 2006, 14:02

ChittaSwaram for Suvarnangi Krithi :

S* , N D ;- R*S* N D ,- N D P M P D ; - P , M G ;- D P M G , R S ,- N_ D_ N_ S R G , ||

G M P D , P- M P D N S* R*- S* R* G* R* G*,- G* M* P* M*- G* G*,- R* R*,- S* S*,- S* N N D- P , P D N ||

Sri

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 14:15

srivathsan
Fast work! I have made corrections in the ciTTeswara in your post itself to avoid confusion.

sriucl · Post by **sriucl** » 07 Sep 2006, 14:29

Thanks DRS.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 15:09

suvarNAngi is the 47th sampUrNa mELa. Its scale is

SR1G2M2PD2N3S* | SNDPMGRS ||

This is a very nice rAga with scope for elaboration. The pUrvAnga immediately brings to mind SIvapantuvarALi which is the most well-known rAga of this cakra. Needless to say the uttarAnga is very important to show the distinct identity of the rAga. G, M,& N aare the jIva swaras. R.R.Keshavamurthy mentions that the rAga evokes various rasas such as SRngARa, hAsya and vIra. The asampUrNa equivalent is sauvIra.

oDeyar's kRti is a nice adition to the very few compositions in the rAga. oDeyar starts the kRti with the rAgamudre. Interestingly, oDeyar has made use of several other mELakarta names in the kRti, using them as apellations of dEvi. The prAsa is maintained in the pallavi and the caraNa.

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 07 Sep 2006, 18:02

Interesting that G,M,N are the jeeva swaras while the swara that distinguishes it from shubhapantuvarali is the dhaivatha!DRS,one question-in suvarnaangi,can the Dha be treated like the way it is treated in Kalyani(I know that the uttaranga is shared between the two ragas-hence the question)?and phrases like .PDNDaaPaMa?

I had a colleague and friend(a senior Bengali professor who listened to HM for about 50 years)-(incidentally some of close friends are elderly people.like the ever youthful Coolji

)who was explaining about Multani to me.Now Multani is dervied from Subapantuvarali,(SGMPNS/SNDPMGRS).He said that Multani was a raga that is extremely difficult to sing with full justification because of the exactly opposite rasas invoked in the the arohana and
avarohana.This,he said,was like a father who has mixed feelings of extreme happiness and deep sorrow,when his beloved daughter leaves to her husbands house on the day of her marriage.Happiness because she is to be a woman,and sadness as she is no longer a member of his fmily,she,whom he brought up with so much of love and affection.

I always felt that Suvarnangi falls into this category(the swaras are different),but the sudden change in mood while moving from uttaranga to poorvanga makes me feel that it may quite a difficult raga to render,doing justice to it.

I have not heard a major alapana as yet,but it was rendered in Gayana samaja as an RTP by Neela Ramgopal.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Sep 2006, 21:29

drshrikaanth wrote:suvarNAngi is the 47th sampUrNa mELa. Its scale is

SR1G2M2PD2N3S* | SNDPMGRS ||

This is a very nice rAga with scope for elaboration. The pUrvAnga immediately brings to mind SIvapantuvarALi which is the most well-known rAga of this cakra. Needless to say the uttarAnga is very important to show the distinct identity of the rAga. G, M,& N aare the jIva swaras. R.R.Keshavamurthy mentions that the rAga evokes various rasas such as SRngARa, hAsya and vIra. The asampUrNa equivalent is sauvIra.

Even though there is scope for elaboration, I don't know if many musicians take it up for detailed treatment, may be because of the fear of it becoming ShubhapantuvarALi + kalyANi ..

BMK has composed a kriti 'srI raghupatim mE gatim' in this rAga. Interestingly, he uses a masculine rAgamudre, appropriate for Rama, where he is called 'suvarNAnga'. This is available on a commercial recording in the Raganga Ravali series.

BMK has also sung MD's 'sarasa souvIra' in rAga souvIra, in one of his commercial releases.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Sep 2006, 21:35

kartik wrote:I had a colleague and friend(a senior Bengali professor who listened to HM for about 50 years)-(incidentally some of close friends are elderly people.like the ever youthful Coolji )who was explaining about Multani to me.Now Multani is dervied from Subapantuvarali,(SGMPNS/SNDPMGRS).He said that Multani was a raga that is extremely difficult to sing with full justification because of the exactly opposite rasas invoked in the the arohana and
avarohana.

I always felt that Suvarnangi falls into this category(the swaras are different),but the sudden change in mood while moving from uttaranga to poorvanga makes me feel that it may quite a difficult raga to render,doing justice to it.

Some of your observations are true; We percive the pUrvAnga - uttarAnga split personality of suvarNAngi quite easily, becase of the two famous flagship rAgas, shubha pantuvarALi and kalyANi - than we do for some other rAgas where there is more vivAditva.

The problem (at least for me), in multAni is more than this. Multani has a very strong graha and nyAnsa on ni, and ri - For southerners, who are happy with 'sa graha nyAsAmshayukta' rAgas, this is quite a challenge IMO.

-Ramakriya

Raja Chandra · Post by **Raja Chandra** » 07 Sep 2006, 22:05

drshrikaanth wrote:So it is much better that I happily follow the forum like most people do and contribute here and there without feeling that "I owe it to everyone" regardless what I get/do not get in return.

Here is a quote attributed to JCRW by his guru and Political advicer ( Before Independence ) Prof. V.L.D'Souza in an article titled " A philosopher on the Throne":

At the end of a discussion in his study he would often say,' To serve without the thought is part of Indian Tradition; and then quote the Bhagvadgita : Thy right is to the action only, not to the fruit thereof.

DRS,

i cannot thank you enough for your erudite contribution and also for your kind words about my own meagre contribution !

Yes, I know about SDNRW's refusal ! He is a enigma and always says he will do it himself when he is free from all the troubles which have dogged the family for the last 30years after the death of JCRW ! Well, it appears like mirage. Goddess Chamundi willing one day i will solve this problem !

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 22:06

ramakriya wrote:Even though there is scope for elaboration, I don't know if many musicians take it up for detailed treatment, may be because of the fear of it becoming ShubhapantuvarALi + kalyANi ..

I did not get any trace of kalyANi in suvarNAngi- not even a suggestion. For a good musician, handling of this rAga should not be a problem simply cause he/she would not be thinking on terms of half kalyANi- half SivapantuvarALi. They will only be thinking of suvarNAngi. Every mELakarta rAga is basically 2 halves of some other rAgas.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 22:10

The poularity or rarity of rAgas with musicians are often simply due to force of habit and inertia. What is popular continues to become more and more popular and the obscure ones remain obscure and may even go into oblivion. There are at times exceptions that make for a freshness.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Sep 2006, 22:19

drshrikaanth wrote:
ramakriya wrote:Even though there is scope for elaboration, I don't know if many musicians take it up for detailed treatment, may be because of the fear of it becoming ShubhapantuvarALi + kalyANi ..
I did not get any trace of kalyANi in suvarNAngi- not even a suggestion. For a good musician, handling of this rAga should not be a problem simply cause he/she would not be thinking on terms of half kalyANi- half SivapantuvarALi. They will only be thinking of suvarNAngi. Every mELakarta rAga is basically 2 halves of some other rAgas.

I should have made myself more clear - It is only our perception - The s r1 g2 m2 combination - and the p d2 n3 s combination give exactly opposite feelings. I was only correlating with the representative rAgas. Yes, of course singers should not be thinking it this way - But in the absense of ample lakshya, some rAgas have not developed to the same extent as some others. As more composers try out different things, they definitely get better than pUrvAnga of A + pUrvAnga of B.

What you say is true ! Every mELa is 2 halves of 2 other mELas.

A rAga having two different angas is not so much of a rarity, particularly in Hindustani.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Sep 2006, 22:22

drshrikaanth wrote:The poularity or rarity of rAgas with musicians are often simply due to force of habit and inertia. What is popular continues to become more and more popular and the obscure ones remain obscure and may even go into oblivion. There are at times exceptions that make for a freshness.

chakravatparivartantE rAgAni cha mElAni cha

Over the centuries many of the ragas have become popular, then go obscure and well, there may be another time when they get popular again !

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 22:27

ramakriya wrote:chakravatparivartantE rAgAni cha mElAni cha

Over the centuries many of the ragas have become popular, then go obscure and well, there may be another time when they get popular again !

-Ramakriya

Nice one but there is a hitch in the chandas. Yes except for some rAgas- which will always remain popular. Anyway, Kartik- post the next one.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 07 Sep 2006, 22:46

Over the centuries many of the ragas have become popular, then go obscure

ramakriya,
Can you give few examples for your above statement in the past till now(would like to know popular and then becoming obscure). The nomenclature of rAgas (sampoorna and asampoorna) may have forked the understanding before , hence may create that illusion.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Sep 2006, 23:28

rajeshnat wrote:ramakriya,
Can you give few examples for your above statement in the past till now(would like to know popular and then becoming obscure). The nomenclature of rAgas (sampoorna and asampoorna) may have forked the understanding before , hence may create that illusion.

Couple of examples I can give off hand are sAmantha and dEshAkshi, which seems to have been very well known in the 1500's. A large number of Annamacharya's compositions in the copper plates are in rAga sAmanta.

Few other rAGas like gurjari, kannaDagouLa, hejjujji were deemed quite important for them to attain mELatva.

When we look at the compositions of Muttuswami Dikshita, we can see a predominence of rAgas from mELa 15; MD was a staunch follower of tradition, this shows there must have been a time when a large number of janyas from mELa 15 were very popular. Compare that with now - We see a large number of janyas from mELas 22,28 and 29 dominating the show.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 23:36

ramakriya wrote:When we look at the compositions of Muttuswami Dikshita, we can see a predominence of rAgas from mELa 15; MD was a staunch follower of tradition, this shows there must have been a time when a large number of janyas from mELa 15 were very popular.

That is not a correct inference. MD was a stuanch follower of tradition in som much as the scales and classification were concerned. It is well-known that he put in a lot of efforts to revive and rejuvenate maany rAgas that had gone or were going into obscurity. ANd he has certainly composed in a BIG number of rAgas from 22, 28 and 29th mELas as well.

Some rAgas that were well-known have gone into oblivion but the converse is not equal in magnitude. And the reasons for some rAgas becoming unpopular are many, often very sound although sad. I dont think kalyANi, SankarAbharaNa, tODi are likely to become unpoular. These have been very pouplar for a long time and it is not without reason.

I dont think well-known and popular are necessarily the same. There are some rAgas around today that are very well-known even from a single composition. They are also sung often. But it is a very precarious position for them.

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 08 Sep 2006, 00:14

Talk about dying ragas brings up something on a raga that impressed me a lot - ghanTa. I remember bringing this up in sangeetham.com; other than a ksEtrayyA padam (neyyamunA) by Brinda and mukhta and Dikshithar's Kamalambike Avava, there does not seem to be any available recording. And, I have heard that this raga used to be elaborated in detail by some artistes in the early part of this century, and probably before.

Just to know, has this raga been sung at all in any recent concert?

Cheers
Ninja

Raja Chandra · Post by **Raja Chandra** » 08 Sep 2006, 01:02

just to embellish this beutiful suvarnAMgi kRuti with :

atha rAjamAtaMgI dhyAnaM - tatkalpe

ratnAsanAM shyAmagAtrIM shRuNvaMtIM shukajalpitaM |
abjanyastaikacaraNAM cArucaMdrAvataMsakAM||
vINAmAlApayaMtIM ca tilakOdvAsiphAlakAM |
saugaMdhikasakkalikAcULikAM raktavAsasaM
vibhUShaNaurbhUShitAM ca mAtAMgIMpraNamAbhyahaM||

shyAma varNAH

She is seated on a gem studded throne, black in color, listens to the words of a parrot, has placed her foot on lotus, adorned by beautiful moon as an ornament, plays vINa, with a shining tilaka on her forehead, adorned on her hair with saugandhika flowers, wearing blood-red robe, bejeweled and to such mAtaMgi I bow to thee.

(CML -correct me if i have erred)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Sep 2006, 01:29

Thanks RC! some minor elucidations!

She is seated on a gem studded throne, black in color, listens to the words of a parrot, has placed her one foot on lotus, adorned by beautiful moon-shaped ear ornament, plays vINa, with a shining tilaka on her forehead, adorned on her hair with saugandhika flowers with buds, wearing blood-red robe, bejeweled and to such mAtaMgi I bow to thee.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 08 Sep 2006, 01:44

RC/CML/DRS
Is it Pranamaabhyaham or Pranamaamyaham in the the last line?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Sep 2006, 02:13

Yes kiran
It must be praNamAmyaham
(that appears to be a typo!)

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 08 Sep 2006, 02:37

ninjathegreat wrote:Just to know, has this raga been sung Ghanta at all in any recent concert?

Cheers
Ninja

Recently I heard Tyagaraja's mangaLa in Ghanta in a concert - However, because of the (short) nature of the composition, don't know if it qualifies

-Ramakriya

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 08 Sep 2006, 02:42

CML
Thank you

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 08 Sep 2006, 02:51

IIRC, Sowmya may have done so, Ninja.