History of gamakas vs flat notes

[arunk]

V.V.Subramaniam who had accompanied him for long, says Chembai always taught to his disciples at home with complete gamaka laden sangatis but did not himself sing so in concerts. VVS says he doesnt know the reason for this.

TVG says its because he wanted to stick to his own tradition.

Not to derail this but I think this could be very profound with regards to the evolution of modern cm that I had wondered about . There is a school of thought that much of the gamakas we are used to hearing now are either "added" or "more pronounced" versions of the way CM was even in the very early part of 20th century of later. Even recently, TMK has opined on this a lot (with relation to gamakas in SSP) including a concert where he has sung bhairavi etc. like the olden days - different prayogas, but also minimal gamakas compared to today. He also mentioned that the earlier vintage recordings were indicative of this. I also remember a conversation with vainika of our forum (over a tasty meal at MFAC canteen ) where he said that the older recordings of TNR's todi had lot of usages of ga which were more like say Subhapantuvarali (i.e flatter and not the way it is today).

I have always wondered if it were so, how did it change (say by 40s?), why, and were there any people who were there in both eras. The above seems to speak that Chembai would be one - who "went with the times" but also "stuck to how he was taught" i.e. as per this immediate older form.

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

In the conversation with Dr. N. Ramanathan and Sanjay ( http://sanjaysub.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=501600# ), N. Ramanathan briefly speaks about this. He is of the informed opinion that such sophisticated widely oscillating gamakas like, say thodo ga, evolved in the Cauvery Delta.

[arunk]

But arent the trinity and SSP all cauvery delta? This evolution seems to have happened post SSP i.e. early part of 20th century

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

He does not quite say when that happened. The drift I sensed was it was post-trinity, a gestalt of the vigorous CM scene there. My own feeling is SSP probably did not consider that evolving trend as part of the established music. So, it may have been happening around the time SSP was being put together.

Another data point to consider for this is the recording of Nannu Palimpa by Bidaram Krishnappa. Sounds quite different.

[srkris]

The above posts were split from the Chembai Thread.

[munirao2001]

After the advent of Haridasa compostions, many of them using the gamaka, a specialized form of 'Gamaka'singing tradition started in Karnataka, some time in 13th century. To highlight the bhavam of the composition, gamakas are extensively used in this form. There are few 'Gamaka' specialists in karnataka, e.g. vetern Shri M.V.Jayarama Rao. Vaggeyakara, Kshetragna had used the gamakas extensively in his monumental romantic compositions. Dhanammal Bani/school is one of the best handling gamakas. Music Trinity, Mudduswami Dikshita in particular, mastered the use of the gamakas in their compositions.
Vocalists, enjoying the gamakas very effectively handled by the Vainikas-Tanjore School-Karaikkudi Bani, in particular, adopted the technique. Tiger Varadhachar was one of the prominent Great Maestro, whose music was full of rich gamakas. All his desciples also continued the bani. Ariyakudi, Musiri and many other Great Maestros revelled in effective use of gamakas.
The Mysore Bani and Andhra Bani was with predominantly flat note, until such time the influence of Tanjore Bani, changed that. With the popularity of Nagaswaram Vidwans-TNR, in particular, Vocalists started adopting the falt note technique of nagaswaram. Great Maestro Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer, was one of the pioneer. To my knowledge, Chembai Mama used the flat note technique, as most suited to his voice after recovering from loss of voice.
Great Genius GNB mama took great fascination to the flute playing technique-Palladam Sanjiva Rao, besides his admiration for nagaswaram playing tecniques of TNR. He took the cue from Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer on birghas and developed extensive use of birkas and judiciously using flat note technique of nagaswaram playing .

Gamakas rich music is indeed very tough to master and demanding to perform. Only very few master the technique and employ.

munirao2001

[uday_shankar]

Arun
It is not necessary that only one flavor was practised, even in the Kaveri delta. Different banis may have practised a spectrum of gamakas. In general, it is thought "Mysore" school played more plain notes, and so on.

I've heard it said that Karaikudi Sambasiva Iyer (presumably from Karaikudi, not a big "delta" from the Kaveri delta) played Todi with a plain Ga. Other such anecdotes abound.

It is possilble to conceive some kritis without the pronounced gamakas of today but harder with others. For example, as I listen to SSI singing the Shyama Shastri swarajiti in Bhjairavi, it is hard to imagine that it might have been composed/rendered with a "mottai"ness to the gamakas.

[arunk]

Hi Uday,

Yes that makes sense in that there were variant practices which differ in the gamakas. What got my curiosity going was the impression that the "prevalent" usage itself was less accentuated gamakas (e.g. that SSP was such and it was prescriptive as well descriptive), and that this was so as late as the early part of 20th century. I agree it is hard for us to imagine otherwise for many songs, but I think that is what is being implied.

I was trying to apply this in relation to the music of some of the stalwarts whose later recordings we have - Ariyakudi, Chembai and SSI. Ariyakudi and Chembai were born the later half of 19th century (prior to SSP release) and SSI very early part of 20th century (around the time). So if gamakas were "flatter" when SSP came out, then these folks must have been taught so, and also started out so, but over their career could have (gradually) switched with the times. One indicator that they started out so is supposedly the vintage recordings. Another is Chembai's style as discussed above vs how he taught. I guess one could perhaps say that Ariyakudi was closer to Chembai than SSI in terms of the emphasis on gamakas (?). If so, then may be there is a trend here too that points to the same - i.e. SSI being born later shows more evidence of this evolution. It would be interesting to compare SSI's recordings over his career.

Arun

[uday_shankar]

There may also be the issue of chamber vs "pandal" music. That may also be the reason for Chembai toning down the gamakas, which cannot be heard in unamplified quasi open air.

I think Carnatic vocal music turned into "pandal" music towards the end of the 19 century and hence the need to sing loudly and audibly. This automatically meant less nuanced gamakas. This "shouting" approach to music is visible in the old recordings of Ariyakudi, Chembai, Maharajapuram, etc... Today's artists, incuding ARI's disciple KVN, couldn't have accomplished the "shout fest" of the earlier days. They are all children of amplification and hence feebler of voice.

I don't know how prevalent pandal music was in the 18th century and early 19th century, i..e, during trinity time. I think the trinity themselves composed and sang in the sannidhis, i.e., quiet indoor chambers, and hence sang more nuanced gamakas. Their disciplic lineage, while performing in public places, toned down the gamakas a little... That's my story for now.

In contrast Hindustani music seems to have been the exclusive patronage of royalty and hence always chamber music, except shehnai I suppose.

This is my nonsensical, self conceived synopsis of recent musical history .

[girish_a]

This topic is very interesting. If you listen to Raja Iyengar's singing, you will notice that it is not too gamaka-laden. But could that be because he used the harmonium, which does not easily lend itself to gamakas, for accompaniment?

[srkris]

I think Carnatic vocal music turned into "pandal" music towards the end of the 19 century and hence the need to sing loudly and audibly. This automatically meant less nuanced gamakas. This "shouting" approach to music is visible in the old recordings of Ariyakudi, Chembai, Maharajapuram, etc... Today's artists, incuding ARI's disciple KVN, couldn't have accomplished the "shout fest" of the earlier days. They are all children of amplification and hence feebler of voice.

Does this apply to the instrumentalists of the mikeless era too apart from the vocalists? We can probably consider Malaikottai Govindaswamy, Dwaram, Dhanammal etc.

Is the employment of gamakas related to volume?

[uday_shankar]

srkris

Yes. Dhanammal could never have performed in a pandal.

I don't know about Govindaswamy Pillai but I've heard that his disciple Rajamanickam Pillai used to generate a tremendous volume with his violin and hence won the admiration of no less than PMI. Volume is definitely an issue. Even PMI, although much younger but being an early starter, cut his teeth with the mikeless pandal music of ARI in the twenties and early thirties. Hence his mrdangam playing is also louder than most contemporary mrdangam artists.

[arunk]

Uday,

That is a very interesting argument - while subtle gamakas aren't mandatory for good soulful music in smaller, quieter environments (e.g. take HM), they are indeed very hard to convey effectively in a bigger, (and naturally) acoustically challenged environments like pandals. Yes I can see that for the kind of full throated and very loud (and also fast paced) singing in the vintage recordings (reflective of the mic-less pandal era), gamaka laden stuff is very hard to pull off. So this is a plausible take on the change that happened post mic-less i.e. after mics came about.

Is this is a circle back to how it was in the earlier days (in the courts and private halls of rajas, zamindars)? Possibly. Or is it a new evolution which was brought about by mics and amplification? (if so I find it ironically humorous). That is also possible. It also may explain some opposition to it by some generation i.e. ones exposed to mainly the full throated mic-less era would find this to be less fulfilling, and us who are exposed to the mic era, may find the older full throated, fast, less gamakamized vintage stuff to be less fulfilling.

I wonder how to get more data to find out whether this was back to before, or a new path. But I do remember that Prof Ramanathan says in Sanjay's podcast that SSP opines that "ga" or tODi should not be wide enough to encompass ma - and I believe TMK is of the opinion that gamakas as per SSP, gamakas should be under-emphasiz. So if SSP is taken as reflective of "pre-pandal" era, then it enhanced gamakas would be a new evolution which is what some scholars say.

srkris - Yes. Veena and Violin e.g. would be a prime example as they just dont have natural volume to carry through (unlike nagaswaram). We do have samples of dhanammal's recordings IIRC - not sure from when (i.e. 30s, 40s?)

Arun

[srkris]

Somehow I am unable to link gamakas to volume. Maybe to speed (slower speed = more pronounced gamakas) but to volume?

Then by definition, the lower you reduce your volume, the better should one be able to sing gamakas.

[arunk]

Not 100% sure but "excessive" (subjective of course - but say something) loudness may require the vocal chords to be held extra tight and stiff - and that would/could hamper some things. And then there are gamakas in ragas which require a certain softness - say sahana, mukhari, nilambari etc.

(But I realize this is all subjective and i also realize that "full throated" singing is what is prescribed by many even for our current form of music)

Arun

[bilahari]

I too have difficulty associating gamakas with volume. It seems to me that volume is merely a wholesale amplification of the original sound, though in the manner of amplification, subtleties are more or less likely to get lost. Not entirely convinced of the relationship here.

[arunk]

bilahari - as I hinted to srkris, we may have to look at what it takes physically for humans to amplify the volume to reach the throngs of people in a pandal environment if there are no external aids like microphones (or acoustically engineered halls).

Arun

[bilahari]

But I was under the impression that "full-throated" singing had some other primary objective--namely azhuttham--than mere volume, which is almost an incidental byproduct. I mean, it's certainly possible to sing loudly without necessarily singing with azhuttham, and vice-versa.

[rajeshnat]

I think Carnatic vocal music turned into "pandal" music towards the end of the 19 century and hence the need to sing loudly and audibly. This automatically meant less nuanced gamakas. This "shouting" approach to music is visible in the old recordings of Ariyakudi, Chembai, Maharajapuram, etc... Today's artists, incuding ARI's disciple KVN, couldn't have accomplished the "shout fest" of the earlier days. They are all children of amplification and hence feebler of voice.

.

I am assuming the early recordings of ariyakudi , chembai and MVI were limited with the tape and spool in terms of recording minutes . So possibly they may have sung for recordings alone in a more faster fashion or 'vottam' to pack up many songs within the limited recording window. And obviously they would have had more speed and therefore resulted in lesser gamakam.

[srikant1987]

In stringed instruments pressing harder with left hand and plucking / bowing harder with the right hand go together. If you press very hard and pluck with little force, you hear a "tink".

If you pluck very hard and barely touch the fret, you hear a "twang".

Pressing harder with the left hand (hence plucking or bowing harder with the right hand) needs a more precise understanding of what you're intending to play.

[arunk]

rajesh - I have heard that and while it has traction (and may have even some truth), IF gamaka laden music was the hallmark then, why would stalwarts decide to compromise that of all things?

Arun

[uday_shankar]

we may have to look at what it takes physically for humans to amplify the volume to reach the throngs of people in a pandal environment if there are no external aids like microphones (or acoustically engineered halls).
Arun

I think these are golden words and go to the heart of the problem (srkris and bilahari please take note ).

[CarnaticMuse]

In stringed instruments pressing harder with left hand and plucking / bowing harder with the right hand go together.

I hate it when the plucking is as hard as the pressing down, at least in the case of the veena (which is all I know). The sounds produced are like you are battling with the instrument. I hope I am not commiting blasphemy by saying that while I ADORE S.Balachandar's music, I sometimes imagine how much more beautiful his music would be if he plucked less hard.

IMO, the plucking should be strong enough to generate a full note and add no extra clippy sounds, if I am making any sense. On the other hand, the pressing down can go much further, but even there there is a limit. Beyond a certain point, it would be the same as pulling the string back and you could sound off-note.

[vasanthakokilam]

The discussion may have moved away from this but just adding this tidbit to round out the picture

>This "shouting" approach to music is visible in the old recordings of Ariyakudi, Chembai, Maharajapuram,

What I heard from a source who studies the history of early recording techniques, this is typically what the technicians would advise the singers to do. Sit in front of that 'audio capture' contraption ( not really a mike as we understand today ) and produce as high a volume so they will get a good recording. This seems to be the case for at least a decade spanning the twenties and early thirties.

[uday_shankar]

I am assuming the early recordings of ariyakudi , chembai and MVI were limited with the tape and spool in terms of recording minutes .

Spool ?! rajesh, you're very modern ! Early recordings, from the twenties right upto world war II(1939-1945) were on 78 RPM records, with a 3.5 minute limit on each side. EP's and LP's came in the 50's.

The first tape (i.e., spool) recordings of Carnatic music appear from the early 50's (there's an MS from 1950 and an alathoor (nangundiyan) from 1956, an MVI from 1956 and so on) but it was mid 60's before we saw a relative proliferation of spool tapes. These had no timie limits and entire concerts have been recorded. The spools gave way to casettes (both recorded and pre recorded) in the early seventies.

[svkashyap]

Off late this has been the most interesting topic. Thanks to Uday and Arun for their scholarly analysis. Keep it coming guys.
Did T.Chowdiah invent the 7-stringed violin to mainly for amplification during pre-mic era?

[cienu]

we may have to look at what it takes physically for humans to amplify the volume to reach the throngs of people in a pandal environment if there are no external aids like microphones (or acoustically engineered halls).
Arun

I think these are golden words and go to the heart of the problem (srkris and bilahari please take note ).

I am not sure about the year, maybe 1978 or 1979. It was a full bench concert in the Shanmukhananda Hall - Bombay by MSS accompanied by my mother, Kandadevi on violin, TKM on Mridangam, Nagarajan on Kanjira and Vikku Vinayakram on Ghatam. It was a jam packed auditorium. One hour into the concert the power snapped and darkness enveloped the auditorium. (This was major power cut in the Western Grid as Bombay normally never experiences power cuts.)

As the concert was still in progress , lamps were lit expeditiously near the stage. For the next 2 hours the concert continued without the mikes and was heard in pin drop silence.

Speaking after the concert Swami Chinmayananda said that it was a divine experience to hear MS without a mike and jocularly suggested that she continues to give mikeless concerts.

(Perhaps veteran Mumbai Rasikas on the forum may have seen this concert live.)

[keerthi]

This topic is very interesting. If you listen to Raja Iyengar's singing, you will notice that it is not too gamaka-laden. But could that be because he used the harmonium, which does not easily lend itself to gamakas, for accompaniment?

this is quite true, his was not just full-throated singing, but was unrestrained, and backed by the full force of his lung power.. It is not possible to execute sphurita-s or orikkai-s at that volume, the high amplitude would mask any gamaka-s..

Two characteristics of the 'old'(pre-amplification) open air performances were that they required high volume and high pitch..

One actually led to the other.. the need for high volume led to a need for a high pitch.. the limit of volume we can produce, is linked to the pitch chosen.. it is not a simple linear relation, but there is a strong, positive correlation..

One can try out singing a familiar gamaka-laden line at a high pitch and/or loud volume, and discern the difficulty faced in articulating all the gamaka-s that were intended..

There is merit in the chamber performance vs open-air performance theory.. Particularly because the latter had strong links with the theatre/harikatha genres..

[arasi]

Cienu,
This is where the analytical and 'close to divine' meet!
Can't wait to hear from someone who was there that evening and from the experts too!

[munirao2001]

Core Strength, Special feature and the main differentiating factor of CM with HM and other forms of Music is employment of Gamakas in CM. The gamaka laden melody evokes vishradhi, deep, contemplative and meditative qualities, which is the primary requirement for music, as a means for spiritual progress. It is also a challenge for achieving sruti perfection. Vocal and Veena techniques, complement each other in the development and judicious use of gamakas. With the development of vocalization of instrument techniques- Nagaswaram, Venu and Violin, Veena technique going out of vogue, appealed and became popular. This development has taken place in 19th century. The acoustic quality and the need for higher reach, leading to higher pitch/volume was not the reason for lesser emphasis on gamakas. Many maestros were performing with gamaka rich music. The gamaka rich singing was also not modern/new development. Pre-Trinity, Trinity and post-trinity Vaggeyakaras compositions, rich in gamakas, are standing testimony.
With success eluding the musicians, performing rich music with gamaka and success of musicians performing with flat notes and power singing, maximization of bhirkas usage, gamaka laden music is out of vogue and may become extinct, soon. Poor patronage for Veena Maestros, adhering to the Thanjavur/Karaikkudi Bani and popularity of Vainikas, who do not use gamakas, is hastening the process, alarmingly.
munirao2001

[srikant1987]

Core Strength, Special feature and the main differentiating factor of CM with HM and other forms of Music is employment of Gamakas in CM.

Some people do not believe differentiating CM from HM is particularly important. Even to me, sometimes they seem essentially the same, just that some ragas are preferred in CM and some others are preferred in HM. For this, we should understand yaman and kalyANi to be different ragas. HM employs gamakas less than CM much the same way sindhubhairavi employs fewer gamakas than bhairavi.

The gamaka laden melody evokes vishradhi, deep, contemplative and meditative qualities, which is the primary requirement for music, as a means for spiritual progress.

Spiritual progress isn't a well-defined thing.

Vocal and Veena techniques, complement each other in the development and judicious use of gamakas. With the development of vocalization of instrument techniques- Nagaswaram, Venu and Violin, Veena technique going out of vogue, appealed and became popular.

Nagaswaram has been employed in Carnatic music from very long ago. It is a bad joke to say that nagaswaram has a lot of "popular appeal" these days, in the Carnatic arena at least.

And violin techniques themselves borrow from veena and nagaswaram techniques. Sometimes the correspondences between Thanjavur style of playing veena and Narayana Iyer's style of violin are totally stunning. violinlover once talked of nagaswaram's viraladi techniques being employed in their style of playing violin.

Pre-Trinity, Trinity and post-trinity Vaggeyakaras compositions, rich in gamakas, are standing testimony.

The "appearance" of compositions (and their richness in gamakas) changes with time. Once upon a time, nagumOmu was sung with "shuddha dhaivatam" (now the manner in which shuddha dhaivatam is sung these days itself perhaps differs from how it was sung then!).

Poor patronage for Veena Maestros, adhering to the Thanjavur/Karaikkudi Bani and popularity of Vainikas, who do not use gamakas, is hastening the process, alarmingly.

I can't think of an alarmingly popular vainika in either category.

[girish_a]

I think this is a good topic for a lecdem. One could sing a kriti with and without (reduced) gamakas and discuss both styles.

Would bEgada be a good candiate for such a demo?

[vasanthakokilam]

>HM employs gamakas less than CM much the same way sindhubhairavi employs fewer gamakas than bhairavi.

Srikant, did you mean to write 'thodi' rather than 'bhairavi' ? Otherwise I do not understand the analogy.

[srikant1987]

Hmm ... I think any gamaka-rich ragam will do in that place, though of course, sindhubhairavi is like a todi with all flat notes and unlike bhairavi ...

[vasanthakokilam]

munirao, Arun's original point is not really about reduction of gamakas now compared to how it was in olden times but rather the opposite. The specific wider oscillatory gamakas seem to be an evolution in the Cauvery Delta and surrounding areas( which you also wrote about in an earlier post ). This type of gamakams is not reflected in the SSP.

When did that come into wider practice in the tanjore/karaikudi and surrounding areas? If it had been in practice during trinity's time, the hypothesis is that SSP would have reflected it.

(I think linking the volume with gamaka is a separate issue.)

[suma]

Off late this has been the most interesting topic. Thanks to Uday and Arun for their scholarly analysis. Keep it coming guys.
Did T.Chowdiah invent the 7-stringed violin to mainly for amplification during pre-mic era?

My great great grandfather Late Shri Madras Balakrishna Iyer used to play on the 7 stringed violin and was the first person to play on the 7 strings at the Music Academy during the inauguration of Music Academy. He was also Shri Chowdiah's guru. My mom has a black and white photograph of that and I am told that it is there in the academy as well.

[bilahari]

I believe the 7-stringed violin WAS invented primarily for better amplification of the violin's sound.

[munirao2001]

shrikant1987

1) CM and HM has evolved as two distinct and unique forms of Indian Classical Music. To enjoy, the music of both the forms, it is imperative to know, understand and appreciate all the differentiation, core strength, choices and variety they offer for the enhanced listening pleasure. Not for claiming or proving superiority of one form over the other, as advocated and advised by the Great Maestros of both the systems of IM.

2) If you visit the thread 'Style is not Tradition', you will have the answer. For the ready reference, spiritual progress, one of the two Primary goals of IM, the degree of success in the attainment of SAT-CHIT-ANANDA or the process of Self becoming Universal Self.

3) Veena and Venu are more ancient instruments used in IM , when compared to Naga/Nadaswaram. The popularity attained is Vocalization of the naga/nadaswaram techniques, but, unfortunately Naga/Nadaswaram Maestros receive least patronage, recognition and reward, for the sake of lack of novelty value. The success of vocalization of the technique, lead to the adoption in other instrument playing technique, violin in particular, successfully.

4) The changes appearing/adopted in the compositions are either due to lack of dedication and commitment in keeping the pata integrity-for the sake of 'Style' or genuine, sincere and creative changes by the Great Maestros for sticking to the lakshana or enhancing the rasanubhavam, enriching the tradition.

5) To understand the import of my statement 'Poor patronage for Veena Maestros, adhering to the Thanjavur/Karaikkudi Bani and popularity of Vainikas, who do not use gamakas, is hastening the process, alarmingly', I now urge you to listen many Maestros, who are sticking to the profound gamaka bani and to the Maestros, who, either totally resort to plain/flat note technique or use minimal gamakas, come to your own conclusion and understand my statement. Sounding alarm is for the lack of patronage to Vainikas, in general and for Vainikas uncompromisingly adhering to the Thanjavur/Karaikudi Bani, in particular.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

Vasanthakokilam

The dasa compositions, Oduvar's songs, ugabhogas and the development of 'gamaka' form are having gamakas, may not be all the dasavidha gamakas and they were pre-trinity times. The perfecting, better technique of usage of gamakas, development of dasavidha gamakas and refinement took place in the Thanjavur/Cauvery belt, no doubt. Listen to and read the authentic compositions of Kshetragna and to the Maestros, adhering to the pata uncompromisingly- the dasa compositions and other forms. If SSP has not mentioned the gamaka development, it is omission.

munirao2001

[rajaglan]

I think this is a good topic for a lecdem. One could sing a kriti with and without (reduced) gamakas and discuss both styles.

Would bEgada be a good candiate for such a demo?

Girisha,

I like your suggestion. Especially thanks for suggesting begada as I like it very much.
Someone can sing phrase by phrase alternating with both plain and gamaka laden.
I like to see whether a plain begada is easy to identify. Never heard this as hardly any movie songs in this.
I have seen some MDR youtube videos where he sings plain (sounding like western)
followed by real gamaka laden pieces in a concert not sure swarams or alapana . Any takers ?

[keerthi]

I recently heard this nice anecdote, which is relevant to the topic -

Musiri wanted to learn from dhanammaL,and pestered her to teach him something or the other.. upon his repeated entreaties, she finally agreed and started with 'pahi srI-giri-raja-sutE' - the shyama shastri piece in anandabhairavi.. SAhe taught the first avarta - 'pA hi srI' to the tune 'sa pa sa'..

Hoping to sing in what he thought best represented dhanam's style, he sang 'pA hi srI' to the tune "S(n)S(n) P(m)P(m) S(n)S(n)"..

dhanammA made a caustic remark to the effect 'ohO! do you people give gamaka-s even for sa and pa..? I never knew..'

There ended lesson and desire for lessons..

[srikant1987]

The originator of this "anecdote" should see Brinda and her daughter playing amba nIlAmbari on youtube.

[vasanthakokilam]

I am a bit confused by what Dhanammal was quoted to have said in a generic sense rather than specific to S-P-S of AB. That kind of S(n)S(n) is not that uncommon in other contexts, right? May be those are not considered gamaka on S. I have been under the impression that the non-shakeability of S and P applied mainly to kArvai prayOgAs of those swaras.

[srikant1987]

Though the gamaka S(n)S(n) seems odd for the line, giving jarus to pa and to tAra sa seems reasonable there.

[bilahari]

These are not uncommon gamakas for S and P at all, though I agree with Srikant that the S(N2) oscillation might be a bit steep and perhaps rather awkward for that line of the composition. But there are several other gamakas that are common (nowadays at least) with S and P. For instance, in ragas like tODi, sAvEri, even cArukEsi, the P is oscillated with D1. In cEta SrI in dwijAvanti, the tara S is sometimes played as S- (R,G2-R) - S. A more complex gamaka like S,RSNS or S,(R,G)RSNS can also be employed in some ragas. There is also often a slide down to S from G or R, or a slide up from N which can sound very elegant and aesthetic. Sure, flat notes and gamakas must each be employed judiciously, but I really don't understand why Dhanammal made such a blanket statement about those notes.

[srikant1987]

For instance, in ragas like tODi, sAvEri, even cArukEsi, the P is oscillated with D1.

It's actually the D that's oscillated from the P.

D - SNDPM GMPDN (nA - sA mi) from "ErA nApai", tODi Adi varNam by PSI
D - N - RSNDP M D (rA - vE - himagirikumAri), SS svarajati

D R S (sn) /D/ - durusugA - SS Saveri, Adi kriti

There is also often a slide down to S from G or R, or a slide up from N which can sound very elegant and aesthetic.

Absolutely! In the nIlAmbari youtube, this is done - everyone does it for nIlAmbari, and taking it away might make it look like kEdAram!

[bilahari]

Oh, I meant P(D) in raga alapanai where a phrase like (M) P,D P,D P,,,,, is sung to finally rest on the panchamam. But the point you raise is another source of confusion in the type of comment D made, because patterns of swaras in CM can rarely be merely notated as just P or D when there is an equal oscillation between both notes. As such, saying that note X cannot be sung with gamakam, or note Y must always be sung with gamakam, etc, is pretty loose and ambiguous.

NSG sang beautiful kalpana swaras for kEdAram at the MA last year where he used just the shadjam to demonstrate a variety of gamakas characteristic of the ragam.

[ignoramus]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2400&hl=en

the above link was posted by skutty in a thread different from this. (Concert reviews). The couple of samples post 7th minute might be interesting

[msakella]

dhanammA made a caustic remark to the effect 'ohO! do you people give gamaka-s even for sa and pa..? I never knew..'

As they mingle with Shruti predominantly the beauty of the plain-notes is always far more than the oscillative notes. But, as all our Karnataka musicians are addicted to Gamakas they cannot sing music unless they shake the notes just like the bus-conductor who cannot write anything except in trembling position. If we want to see the fact, the Gamakas are supposed to avoid any discordant effect of any note with the Shruti-instrument. While Shadja, Antara-gandhara, Panchama and Shuddha-madhyama in the absence of either Antara-gandhara or Panchama, perfectly mingle with the Shruti-instrument, Shuddha-rishabha and Kakali-nishada rely upon their adjacent Shadja, Chatusshruti-rishabha mingles with Panchama, Prati-madhyama and Shuddha-dhaivata rely upon their adjacent Panchama. That is why the person who had recently introduced these Gamakas in our Karnataka-music, very intelligently, gave the oscillation for Sadharana-gandhara from Shuddha-madhyama to Chatusshruti-rishabha, among which the Shuddha-madhyama has the concordant effect with Shadja and the Chaturusshruti-rishabha with the Panchama, for Shuddha-madhyama from Panchama to Antara-gandhara, among which the Panchama already is in the Shruti- instrument and Antara-gandhara has the concordant effect both with Shadja or Panchama of the Shruti-instrument and for Kaishiki-nishada from Shadja to Chatusshruti-dhaivata, among which the Shadja already is in the Shruti-instrument and the Chatusshruti-dhaivata has the concordant effect with the Shadja. As either of the Sadharana-gandhara or Shuddha-madhyama or Kaishiki-nishada has its own discordant effect with the Shruti-instrument and as this novel inclusion of Gamaka successfully removed this discordant effect, these oscillations perfectly fitted in our system and used predominantly by one and all. But, this discordant effect of these three notes still prevails in Hindushtani music as they do not have this kind of oscillations to these notes (however, I remember, recently I listened to this kind of oscillation for Sadharana-gandhara in a concert held at Bangalore, but I have to meet him next for clarification). We all must thank this intelligent person for this novel inclusioin of Gamaka. But, there is every danger of any musician coming out attributing this to his Guru who is not alive to get fame to his Guru posthumously, at the least. amsharma

[srikant1987]

The behag tail is very prominent.